428 - She gets clients without social media, here's how with Michelle Bourbonniere

You need social media to get web design clients in 2026, right? Isn’t that what they say?

Well, Michelle Bourbonniere missed that memo.

She’s booked out consistently with her SEO & copy services despite not being active on ANY social media. 

We dive into how she’s done it.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/428

Transcript

Building Without Social Media

Michelle Bourbonniere 0:00

I've always built up a lovely little business for myself without social media. And a lot of it is Web Designer Pro, right? Like this is where I started. Like, I mean before Web Designer Pro, I had a business, but I was mostly working for people that I knew and referrals locally. And like Web Designer Pro was the first time when I started working for people from the quote unquote internet. You know, like people working from people, I guess I guess Eric, I'd also worked with as well. But that's where I like really got that started. And also, like part of the reason why I it's so easy for me to stay off social media is that Web Designer Pro is better. And so like I can go to Web Designer Pro, get my little social fix, and there's no algorithm trying to keep me there. Like I can get to the bottom of the feed. You know, I can see everything that was new since I was last there. Um so it's not that I think everybody deserves to have social interaction on the internet. I think that like private communities are amazing. Um, I just like that so much better than the sort of commodified social media that I don't think is really uh in my best interest.

Josh Hall 1:02

Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, Josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hello, my friend. Great to have you here. Now, if you want to build your web design business and get clients in 2026, you must use social media. They say. But my guest in this interview, a good friend of mine and great colleague, Michelle Bourbonier, did not get that memo because she has built up her business and not had any uh social media presence at all. In fact, she doesn't even have a handle on most social media platforms. So we're digging into exactly how she has done that, including her number one way, which is what you'll find out in this interview. So without further ado, here is Michelle back on the podcast. This is like round six or seven. We lost count. So a link to all of her prior episodes and trainings that are public. She has a couple private trainings inside of my community, Web Designer Pro, that um are just exclusives for pro members. So make sure to jump into Webdesigner Pro to get access to all of our special exclusive guest workshop trainings. But she has a ton of resources for you. The show notes are gonna be for this one at johall.co slash 428. So head down there, the the uh link below to go to the show notes, and without further ado, we're gonna hear how the heck Michelle has managed to build her SEO and copy and words-based business while not having any social media presence.

Quitting Apps And Digital Minimalism

Josh Hall 2:42

All right, Michelle back on the podcast. We're matching. We did not coordinate this, we just happened to show up in our pro con swag because at the time of recording this, just got to meet in real life again recently, a pro con. And that is very uh integral to your marketing because I'm so excited to dive into this. You have literally built up your business with like next to no social media. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who are a bit jelly, a little jelly of that. So figure we could dive into that if that works for you.

Michelle Bourbonniere 3:16

Indeed. Yeah, I haven't been seriously on social media since 2021. Um, I just at some point decided like personally I didn't want to be on social media anymore. It was a big time suck. Um, and so then I pretty much just signed off of all that. I never did like the formal thing of closing all my accounts. Like you can technically still find me, but I don't use it. I don't have it on my phone. I'm always logged out. It's like, and it's lovely. It's just a lovely, a lovely life.

Josh Hall 3:40

Uh I was gonna say you're very smiley, and I feel like that's part of it is you just you're living your life. You are you you you learn, you consume, you project, you work the way you want to do it without being reactionary.

Michelle Bourbonniere 3:56

I just feel that like the way I look at it is that everybody is getting their own social media feed, anyways. There's the one part of not being on social media where you feel like you might be missing out, right? Like, oh, like everybody else knows about the trends or whatever, and I don't. Um, but everybody's getting such a personalized feed, anyways, that it's not like there's one social media that everybody's seeing and I'm missing out on. And so, like, yeah, I just like I just don't get all worked up about whatever's going on on social media. And I have friends that tell me if something truly, truly large happens, and then they tell me about it.

Josh Hall 4:24

Now, I you're honest, I know you'll be honest with me. Did you at ProCon look at the hashtag or look at anyone's posts or anything like that?

Michelle Bourbonniere 4:33

Not once.

Josh Hall 4:35

Wow. See, that's the kind of thing that's where I do love social media is I love people tagging me, especially around ProCon. And they're even tagging sponsors and sharing like wins that I didn't know about. So there is a, you know, I think it depends on, of course, the industry, the person. For me, I've I've really worked at curating a social media experience that is overwhelmingly positive and is not um like doom scrolling by nature. It's very much connection. Um but you know there's a part of me that's like, gosh, I'd I'd love to at the very least take breaks. And I've even thought about you know, pulling a Michelle and just taking it off my phone for like a month and just really stepping up.

Michelle Bourbonniere 5:21

I find taking it off your phone actually was one of the biggest. So I read a book, um, Cal Newport, obviously, um, Cal Newport's Digital Minimalism. And that was the one that really did it for me. Like, that's was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. Um, and one of his points in that book is that all of the sort of very engaging parts of social media are on smartphones. And so if you just move your social media habits from smartphones to a computer, like you work at a computer all day, it's not like the computer is inaccessible. Like all of the social media is much less attractive on like you do a much more reasonable amount of social media on a computer versus an app because they don't spend as much time optimizing the desktop application. And you have Chrome extensions, so you can turn off all the worst parts. Like I have a Chrome extension, I can't think of it right now. It's something like no distractions or like feed eliminator or something like that. And so like it gets rid of the social feed. So if I ever do log on to say LinkedIn, I don't see what they're feeding me. I just go where I was intending to go and like see yours. Or like if I really do want to go look up somebody on social media, um, then I go and do that. I don't get distracted by all whatever you know the algorithm's trying to feed me.

Josh Hall 6:26

So you do have profiles. Are there any that you dip into on your desktop? Like which ones will you occasionally peek into versus which ones are you like you don't even have an account or you absolutely do not log into?

Michelle Bourbonniere 6:40

Um it's really LinkedIn is the only one that can sometimes attract. And honestly, it's when people tag me. So I like I do understand how social media works. I understand the engagement algorithms, and I feel like it's only fair. If somebody's tagging me, I need to play along. And so like I go in and I like comment and all that kind of stuff. So I will like, if people tag me, um I will engage. Um, but I never like scroll. The other thing about it though is to the extent that I've ever done this, is always recognize that social media feeds are in reverse order of goodness. And so like everything that they put up at the top is like the stuff that you actually wanted to see. Like I have a niece who has special needs and she learned how to walk. And of course, that was like way up at the top of my feed. But then the way I always think of it is like it just keeps on getting worse the more you scroll. And so to me, it's like I saw all the stuff that was actually I wanted to see. Like, why am I staying here any longer? And it's just that like I I work um school hours, right? So I have a small business, I fully enjoy my work, but I also do have limited time to work. And so for me, like it's it's really important that I'm working then. And so I turn off all my distractions and just like get to work um when I can. Um, and so just to me, I just I would it just feels I don't want to be wasting my time during the day. I want to be doing work.

Josh Hall 7:47

Now, what about and we'll get into some strategies on how you're getting clients off of social, but like the thing with your niece, was that a personal profile like on Facebook or Instagram?

Michelle Bourbonniere 7:56

It's like everybody in my extended family hearted that post. And so of course they put it up at the top. Like I saw that instantly when there was a video of Emma walking. Um and so just to say that was just an example of how I always think of it. It's like when one of your friends has a new baby, or when, like, you know, somebody learns how to walk, yes, that is up at your feet. And that is the good social stuff, right? But then so much of it is just slop after that.

Josh Hall 8:20

It's a good point. And that's where, like, once you get into the scroll mode, that you're so right.

Michelle Bourbonniere 8:24

It does tend to get at the very least, they're looking for like the tantalizing, like something to make you a little bit angry or like a little bit, like whatever it is that tickles your fancy is what it's gonna feed you. And so, like, I just don't really like being played by an algorithm.

Josh Hall 8:39

Was that Facebook then on the personal side for you?

Michelle Bourbonniere 8:42

I mean, yeah, I've never done Instagram, I've never done TikTok, I've like literally never done those. Um, Facebook, yes, I did do that, like, you know, when I was like in my masters, like when it first came out. Yeah, and it was better then, like it's worse now.

Josh Hall 8:53

So now, oddly enough, we met by way of you being in my Facebook group, Diddy Web Designers.

Michelle Bourbonniere 9:02

Yep.

Josh Hall 9:03

Um, for those who I think we talked about this in a couple of our podcast episodes, but just for very brief context, when Eric, CEO of my agency, when I sold in transit to him in 2020, I think you had already at that point worked with him.

Michelle Bourbonniere 9:18

Yeah. And I did meet him through your Facebook group. So, like that is true. My business was not 100% social media free. It's more, I guess I got off social media a couple of years after starting. Um, and there was a time when I was even doing some helping some of my clients with social media marketing, like just posting blog posts that we had written together. And there was a time when when Facebook was actually sending a decent amount of traffic to the outside web. And like those days were just over now. Like it was lovely when it happened, but like you can post something on Facebook and it gets no attention. And like that wasn't the way. Like, we used to have little parties when we would, as one of my good friends who's my client, and we would post a blog post in like a little Facebook group, and then we'd watch like the analytics on the other side to see how many people clicked on it, right? Like it was fun. We had popcorn. Um, but that's those days are just long gone. Um, like Facebook doesn't send traffic out. So I really do believe that like, you know, some people use social media for marketing, and that's great. But like you have to make content that's for

Why Private Communities Beat Feeds

Michelle Bourbonniere 10:15

that medium and recognize that you're probably not gonna get a lot of clicks from it. Um and so it needs to kind of work within that medium. So, like Rand Fishkin and his sort of zero-click marketing idea, I think that's like how you would have to do it. I just personally don't want to do it. And so I never have really. Like, I've never, I've always built up a lovely little business for myself without social media. And a lot of it is Web Designer Pro, right? Like this is where I started. Like, I mean, before Web Designer Pro, I had a business, but I was mostly working for people that I knew and referrals locally. And like Web Designer Pro was the first time when I started working for people from the quote unquote internet, you know, like people working for people, I guess I guess Eric I'd also worked with as well. Um, but that's where I like really got that started. And also, like part of the reason why I it's so easy for me to stay off social media is that Web Designer Pro is better. And so like I can go to Web Designer Pro, get my little social fix, and there's no algorithm trying to keep me there. Like I can get to the bottom of the feed, you know, I can see everything that was new since I was last there. Um so it's not that I I think everybody deserves to have social interaction on the internet. I think that like private communities are amazing. Um, I just like that so much better than the sort of commodified social media that I don't think is really uh in my best interest. Like I think that I'm playing a big tech game, you know, I'm I'm giving my away attention, I'm giving away my attention for free on something like Facebook. Whereas, like, you know, there's like really good conversation happening in Web Designer Pro that I just enjoy being part of and like everybody knows each other. And so it's just great fun.

Josh Hall 11:47

That is such a good distinction. And I think you really articulated the value of not only Web Designer Pro, but any like premium community, because free communities are very different as well, I've found. But when you invest in a community like Web Center Pro or any niche that you're in, and there's there's an immediate like gel of like-mindedness and like a seriousness in a way of like you're committed. You're you're there to to build a network and to be a pro in some capacity. And it does make the conversation so different. It is social, but I think what it is is it's not social media, it's social connection, social community.

Michelle Bourbonniere 12:31

That may be the It's not algorithmic, right? Like you're not curating uh Web Designer Pro so that we all stay there for as long as possible, right? Like that's not how you've delivered that algorithm. It's reverse chronological order. And you want us to get work done. Like the point of that is that our businesses thrive, not that we waste our time on Web Designer Pro. Um, and so just to say that, I think that's the difference is like you've monetized it differently than social media monetizes. Yeah, and there are some.

Josh Hall 13:01

You're totally right. I I'm personally very different than uh the algorithm of like Instagram because I'm like sometimes with some people, I'm like, listen, this is weird to say. Thank you for paying to be here, but I don't want you in pro right now. I want you to, you know, be a member, but I like I want you to like go to a B and I group or like build a landing page, do a sales call. Like, I want you to like go and do and then come back because there are times where people disappear from pro and it's often the case that they're just swamped or they're just in a in a super busy season. So yeah, you're you're totally right about that. So let's just get right down to it. 2020 is when we met officially you were active on Facebook to a degree and mostly groups. So even like your the way you conduct yourself now was still very much the way of back then. It was just, like you said, the landscape was different. Um were you active on LinkedIn or anywhere else, or was it just Facebook?

Michelle Bourbonniere 13:56

I've never really done LinkedIn. Like, I mean, I had a profile, but I never really did LinkedIn. I know that LinkedIn works. I mean, this is how it goes, right? Like, you don't have to use all the marketing channels, you just choose the ones that work for you. And if you find something that works, go with it. Like, you don't have to do it. But I do know so many people that do very well on LinkedIn. Like, I wouldn't want to discourage anybody from doing LinkedIn, especially if it's already working for you. Um, but no, I never did LinkedIn.

Josh Hall 14:17

Well, it's interesting too, though, even I feel like your the way you you did utilize social media in a smaller capacity, even then, was the like connected, intentional group fashion. Because before premium and private communities popped off was Facebook groups. I mean, like Circle has taken over how many Facebook groups now? Because there is a need for like serious, committed people who are, you know, often a smaller tribe. But as you mentioned, you've really you've not needed to go to social media, thank goodness, with with the way you run your business. So the big question is how?

Getting Clients Through Partner Referrals

Josh Hall 14:55

So how are you getting clients? Of course, uh, you know, I I know plenty of this, uh, directly and indirectly, but um let's just go through like how how did you get like if maybe you're like your first five-ish clients, whether it was straight through pro, through connections from me or Eric, how did you get your first, you know, handful of clients with the So certainly like a couple people locally, right?

Michelle Bourbonniere 15:20

So I mean, when I was still in that figuring out what I want to do for my business phase, I was working with some people locally. Um, but then beyond that, yeah, I was really pro. And so what actually happened is that, you know, I went from, so I started off as edited by Michelle, I was editing websites. And then I quickly realized when you change the words on websites, Google really notices, and then I fell down that rabbit hole. So like basically I was edited by Michelle as a formal editor, like I took the training and everything, but I was a formal editor for a very short period of time before I went into SEO. Um, and then it was just quite natural that the people in pro, like because I'm not a web designer and I've really never been a web designer, the people in pro were often looking for somebody to help them with their SEO, um, but to help their clients with their SEO. And so a lot of my work has always come through partnerships. So, like I basically partner up with, you know, web designers in pro and outside of pro, um as well as copywriters um outside of pro. Um, and I do the sort of strategy SEO piece, um, and then they do the writing or they do the implementation and the website. And so that's kind of how I've always done it. I mean, I have lots of other direct clients, but all my all my funnest projects are when I get to do like my little zone of genius part, and then other people get to do the implementation, whether that's a website or whether that's copy. Um and so that's what I've always enjoyed doing. So me being like in the virtual rooms where web designers hang out has like always really worked for me. And I like, I'm, I'm generally like, I just like answering questions and like people ask questions about SEO, and I've long been in pro, kind of just giving my two cents whatever I can help, you know, to help people kind of on their path about SEO stuff. And, you know, people always have questions. So I always, I just always answered them. Um, and so that's how so there's that's the one piece is like just being like an active, helpful, non-salesy member of like a private community that has always worked out really well for me. And then, you know, people that see me looking intelligent and send me a DM and we have a conversation. I say, sure, I'd love to like work with your clients. And I sort of have packages that I've put together that are like easy to bolt on to a web design project. So it's like it's a it's an easy sell for them, they pay me, they charge the client, then they can upset, they can upcharge whatever they want. Like it's none of my business what they're paying what they're actually charging the client. And then they can know that solid SEO was like in their project from the beginning. Um, and I did actually set up a year ago, two years ago, um, I kind of had been doing this informally for a really long time, but I have a system that I set up, which I call quick SEO reviews. And so, like as pros or any anyone that I've sort of worked with, if they have a project in mind and they're thinking, hmm, like would this be a good candidate for SEO and like what kind of SEO would it need? Um, they send me, uh they just fill out a quick little form and then I look up the site on AHREFs. Like I basically look up how the site is doing, and I give them just a quick five minute video of like what I think that they should do if I can help at all. And so if I can't help, that's I'll tell them that and I'll tell them how the site is going, like maybe it's too competitive or who knows what. Um but if I can help, then I say, yeah, like that would be a cool project. We could do this together. And then I kind of tell them what type of SEO I would recommend, like which of my packages would make the most sense. So I do have a bit of like a formal intake process now that works really well because then they can get that information quickly and then decide whether they want to include SEO in that project. So I do have it's a bit more formalized than it was originally. Um, but yeah, that's how I've always done it. And so um I love it because I actually don't have to do all that much marketing. Like other people just hand me clients. Um, and I get to work with really cool people. And when you're working with partners, everybody always puts you on like their best clients, right? Like I can't tell you how many times people have have like started to work with me and then I've we work on one project, and then they're like, okay, now I want to introduce you to like my first client, the one that I like the best. And then so I get to work with everybody's best clients, which is awesome. Um, and so I just and I really do like working on a wide variety of stuff. So it's fun to me that I'm working in like industries that I've never even thought of, and then I get to do the SEO research for that, which is just like just keeps me going. Like I love new, fancy, interesting new industries that I've kind of never even thought of before.

Josh Hall 19:24

Well, it's also, I think, for you a testament to like being able, because you're so thorough in your work. It's you would not be the powerful Michelle Bourbonier that you are if you had to sell and market all the time. You know what I mean? Like with being a referral-based business like you are and a tighter connection-based business, that is so, so valuable for us because you did it right. You came into Pro, you were super helpful, super knowledgeable, super thorough. And it just naturally led to like the easiest referrals. And because you do have packages that are, like you said, bolt-on, um, you're highly niched, highly specialized in what your expertise is. Yeah, you're just like the easiest person to

The First Internet Clients Story

Josh Hall 20:10

have as a referral partner, which is a great way to get clients. And to start, so going back to like your first few, um, how did you get started working with Eric? Because that's how I met you. I know.

Michelle Bourbonniere 20:22

Eric is a really funny one because it's like.

Josh Hall 20:23

I'm gonna let my golden retriever in real quick, Michelle, while you're talking. So, but keep on going. I'm listening.

Michelle Bourbonniere 20:28

Okay. Um, the Eric is funny because he actually, in your Divi group, um, he wrote, uh, you know, what do you guys do for proofreading? Um, you know, what do you do for proofreading websites? Like when clients send you stuff and you know it's grammatically incorrect, what do you do? Do you just fix it or what do you do? And I mean, at the time I was edited by Michelle, and one of my services was website proofreading. I wasn't even into SEO yet. Um, or I was just starting to get into SEO. Um, and so I was like, well, if I don't like go on the internet now and say what I do, then like I'm never gonna have a thriving business. So I really like forced myself to say, like, hi, you know, this is what I do, and I'm an editor, and you know, here's a link to my proofreading websites page. And so then he hired me. My first project with Eric was like a proofreading. We we proofread, I think it was a pastor's site. And I proofread it, I guess I did a great proofreading job. Um, and so really like our that started off so small, like that was like uh like such a small project. Um, and yet it was one of the first like people from the quote unquote internet that actually hired me. Um so that was pretty cool. And then, I mean, so fortuitous that then how it all turned into pro, right? Like how I actually ended up really becoming part of pro and not being known as a proofreader, which is probably strategic. Um and so it ended up sort of working out really great for me.

Josh Hall 21:40

Did you I'm going back through the memory archive here, I'm trying to remember because shortly after Eric took over in transit and we did our first like team call together, um, we went after Creative Mobile Interiors, which is the cabinet shop that I used to work at, the Torbus customizing shop. And I think you did, did you do some?

Michelle Bourbonniere 22:00

sort of did an SEO audit for them. So I did one of my I did an SEO audit where I was going through basically, I think it was, it was almost a pre-sale SEO audit if I remember correctly. Like you hadn't actually signed on yet, but you wanted to know like what's the deal with this site and its SEO and what can we change and what can't we change? And I mean on some level that's very predictive of the the next six years, seven years of my life. I've done that type of project many times where like an SEO has already optimized a site and it's doing well. And yet no one ever explained to the business owner what parts of it were contributing to the success or failure of this SEO. And so as people were redesigning, there's a real risk that you take away the parts that are working. So yeah, that was an SEO audit that was focused on like advising you guys about how it was working and why it was working so that you didn't you know ruin the SEO in the redesign.

Josh Hall 22:48

Do you ever think about because I remember that SEO audit was so good I was like I need this. And that told me on you. I mean I really enjoyed getting to know you initially and I like the editing but like proofreading didn't really mean that much to me in that context. Copy boost is basically what it's called now. It's a whole different ballgame I love we copy boost the heck out of everything we do and so many. What a turning point that was for you that that SEO audit is literally the thing that it really and so I had already done SEO.

Michelle Bourbonniere 23:25

So basically at that point I had I mean I have one site that I I just built from the ground up and did really really well. It's my best friend. And it went really well it's still doing really well but it was such a niche topic that I was like maybe maybe I can't make lightning strike twice. Like I wasn't entirely sure. Yeah that's why I wasn't as public doing SEO is because I'd only done it once. And then it was only after I had like three or four sites that did that that I'm like oh this works more broadly than like the really niche stuff. And so I think that was all happening around the same time for me. So it was like basically it was at the time that I was starting to think of myself as like an SEO and not as an editor was around the same time that you guys were hiring me to do SEO audits. And really Eric was the one who was like can you audit this and I'm like I guess um and it's it would be very funny now to for me personally it would be very funny because I know that my audits have evolved and look at that. I was probably quite embarrassed actually I'm glad that it worked for you but if I looked at that now I'd be like there is so much mischief it's probably a cringe fest compared to what you do now.

Josh Hall 24:30

But I mean it was well enough back then to like sell me on yeah that approach and I mean nothing against my previous SEO partner but he never did like I think so because you did that SEO audit and I think I did an audit for you or keyword research or something like that soon after or maybe both.

Michelle Bourbonniere 25:49

I think I did both uh an audit soon after that first one and then we did keyword research together and like yeah and I mean and then it and then it just blew in blew up into like other people in pro. I mean as soon as Josh Hall, the Josh Hall says oh she's so great like of course that turned into reverse for me. And so then other people like Lisa, Lisa Williams, um John Gwen, um uh April Ray, like all those sort of OG pro members all got in touch with me soon after. And so then I started working for all those people, both most of the time starting with their own sites. I think a lot of people just like to test me out on their own site. Like even if they don't badly want SEO, they before they're going to introduce me to their clients, they want to make sure that I'm legit. And so I I do a lot of web designer um SEO and web designer keyword research and I've done a lot of that for people in pro, often as a precursor to another project with a client of theirs because then they trust me. But I do think that the SEO industry is just strange that way, right? Like the fact that your SEO partner never did like a thorough SEO audit that you understood, like I think that that's sad. That's like that's the sadness of the SEO industry where I'm sure that that person fully understood all that was working in your site and how the whole thing worked. But I just don't feel that most SEOs are particularly good at education. Like they're not really trying to teach you about it.

Words-First SEO And Clear Education

Michelle Bourbonniere 27:05

They're more just trying to do it. And I think because my model is so different than a usual SEO company, you know usual SEO companies like do an audit in the first month and then they do all the optimization and then you're on a 12 month package. And I like have never done that. And so it's it's I have to teach people right like I can't not make sure that you fully understand what to do next because other people are doing the implementing. And so for me the focus has been doing audits, doing keyword research, whatever it is that I'm doing, I want to make sure that I'm explaining it in really like plain language terms so that people can just like take it and run with it. And then and that I'm not the one that always has to do the implementation. Like as a solopreneur, I don't want to do that model because it would be I'd only be able to take on 10 sites ever, right? Like in order to actually do all that work, it's a full-time job to do all that kind of stuff. And so because I like doing all the thinking and the strategy like that's the part that I absolutely love is I like digging into a new site and figuring out why it's working and like genuinely looking at the landscape and seeing what this site should do to do better. Like that's what I just love. And so I like doing that but it is I do then have to explain it well in order to make sure that things happen in the world. I need to be convincing enough that people are like yeah I guess I will change that on my site. So then it does happen like it happens in the world. So it is important not to do strategy that's like wonderful but like completely doesn't fit the resources of the business that you're working for. So you're you have this wonderful plan for them, but like they cannot implement because they don't have the capacity themselves. So for me partners has been the better way to make things actually, you know, that my recommendations end up being implemented far more often when there's like a partner that's being paid to make it happen. And that I'm part of that project. So that's what's really worked out for me. I think other times where if I do a really good SEO audit and they love it, everybody loves it, but if it doesn't get implemented it's usually a capacity issue. It's not that they didn't understand it. It's just that they're very busy and they don't have time to you know write these blog posts or whatever it is that I ended up recommending. I mean and I think it's that that I'm an SEO that I like the way I always say it is like I do SEO but I do it just with words. And that's because like I'm not a coder like I don't do the coding side and I think for the small websites you know I specialize in small site SEO and most small websites are fine on the technical side right like there's only so many things that can go wrong with your with your WordPress site. Like you really got to try hard to have terrible technical elements. Like that's not the thing that's usually holding a site back. So it is the words that are actually like your strategic advantage. So it's much easier to explain for sure. I mean I do run audits and make sure that there's nothing like I'll make sure that there's nothing technically that's getting in the way that it's all crawlable and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I do think that the fact that I just am on that side of the SEO world just makes me naturally more approachable than you know me, you know, constantly telling you that your page speed is too slow or something like that. Like that's not in a sense like that's a developer's job. That's a really a web designer's job much more than it is my job. It would have to be very, very bad for that to be the thing that's holding you back. It's pretty rare. So yeah I think that that the fact that they do words makes it a little bit easier. And I think like I'm always thrilled when people introduce me to their clients. Like it is it's like a huge compliment that somebody would allow me to have a call with their client um that they trust me enough to run the interview. Yeah I introduce myself like I mean everybody of course knows that I have my own business. I'm using my own email I'm using my own you know Loom account and stuff like that. So I think everybody knows that we would that we work together and that I'm just like a contractor for this project. But yeah I mean I introduce myself in that call it's like hi I'm I'm April's SEO specialist and then I work as her as her partner. And I think also because I don't design websites, that makes me more of an attractive partner for web designers because a lot of SEO companies, their whole game is that they're like, we're gonna do your SEO and we're gonna throw in the website for free. And I think everybody understands at this point, certainly everybody in pro, that I have zero ambition to become a web designer. So I'm never gonna steal your clients like I have zero interest in starting a web design business and I'm not gonna design websites. I can I'm just very slow at it and not nearly as good as everybody in pro. So just to say that I think that also helps that like they're okay with me, they trust me to not um you know take over the take over the the the client. And so and same with copywriters, right? Like I so respect good copywriters. Of course I dabble in copywriting I do copy boost but like I always tell people like if you can afford a proper copywriter, like let me introduce you to my friends. There are so many really good copywriters out there and like don't hire me for copywriting. Like hire one of these people for copywriting um and I can just do the SEO piece, which just is what I love to do. That's my zone of genius. And the because I'm a soloprinter I cannot do more things. I have to do less things. And so like I always am really like attentive even as I add on new packages for AI search like what can I take away? Like what is not necessary anymore so that I only have packages that all of them like I have a good system for doing it and I've done it a million times and I'm really good at it. That's sort of like how I've always done it is I try to keep on making the list of things that I specialize in like really really tight. And I think that's what makes like I I make a good profit margin because of that. If I was doing a generalist kind of thing I would be less profitable.

Talks And Email List Marketing

Michelle Bourbonniere 36:37

Um actually such a good answer um when I gave that presentation in pro. So like I was your first training I think that that's when like I became like a known entity in pro, right? I wasn't just one of the people commenting but I came and I did so uh Josh uh invited me to give a talk on keyword research and so he does these these like you know his uh monthly trainings and so I did a thing that was called how to do keyword research maybe for free. I know I later later did a podcast about it too. I was that was huge for my business and which is so funny because the reason why we were originally having this talk was because I've since done many presentations in pro. And I don't think I capitalized on those first ones as well as I should have because I saw I did that just because you know I like these people and I like talking and I like teaching. So I was very happy to do that presentation. I don't think I ever put two and two together until basically you just said it now that like what what kicked it off was that presentation. And then I went on to do more presentations in pro, basically on a yearly basis I've done like a presentation in pro. And it was only this last one on on how to um uh how to AI search works, right? The one that I did in September. That's the only one where I started getting strategic. I've done many presentations in pro that have not seen the light of day elsewhere. And like why did I do that? Didn't even occur to me to be like well I put together this lovely presentation like maybe some other people want to see it too. And only this last one did I think like oh and it was more that it wasn't really a marketing urge honestly it was more I was so passionate about the topic and I'm like everybody deserves to know this. And so I did a bit more outreach to see if other private communities might be interested in this talk that I made for Web Designer Pro. And indeed they did. So I did three presentations in pro, I think, and then only AI search was the one that I then went out and like presented elsewhere in the world. So it's kind of like I I like I got my training wheels in pro and then you know I'm off doing things and like that presentation that I gave, I counted it up. I've given it to seven different private communities so far. Well some of it's that it's all just like interconnected. So of course like I was smart and I did an email list from the beginning. So just to be clear how I actually run my business is like I'm active in some private communities but mainly Web Designer Pro. I have an email list that I've been collecting since the beginning. So I do have a list of like basically partners and people that I've actually met. It's a small list but it's a very engaged list. So um it's uh 500 people now but at in September it was only 250. Like I've had significant growth since then. So I have a newsletter and so then um on my newsletter I wrote out like hey I'm giving this presentation in Web Designer Pro. You know I'm I'd love to give it elsewhere is anybody interested and then I think it was Sandra she forwarded it to another private community that she's in right like people who were in private communities are also in other private communities. And so that's how I got connected with Kyle Van Dusen at the admin admin bar. And that he has a huge group there was like 70 people that showed up to that one. And so then basically like it just kind of got known that I did this presentation and then at some point people started emailing me being like I hear you do this presentation like can you? So that's kind of how it happened I think he this was only his paid group so he had he does have a paid like bar fly I think is what it's called and so of his paid group and he said that usually that's how many people show up but I don't know how many people are in the group but I that was like the biggest Zoom call I've ever done to me that's like five thousand people and none of them are freebie seekers right like they didn't sign up because I like tease them with something. They signed up because they're like oh she's cool like I want to hear more from her like I'll sign up for her email list. Like I don't ever have like such a a like my lead magnets are usually like so you you want to hear more and then you know they're not all so that attractive also I do prune it quite a bit. I'm just I don't know it's just vanity I think but I like really high open rates. So like once it starts once it starts like going down below 65, I do like a prune to bring it back up to like 75. Um which is fun because then I know when I'm sending stuff people are reading it. And so to me I know. And every time I send an email I get work like it's like it's it's I can I there was one time and I think probably everyone will remember it, I had um there was this like I'm really into stationery and there was this paper that you could use in the shower and I always get good ideas in the shower and then I lose them. And so I had this waterproof paper that I like pitched on my email list and I got work on the back end of that email. Like people were like oh Michelle I have a project for you. So just to say like I can literally send out an email about anything and I'll get work. So honestly when you don't hear from me like right now for example um I haven't written to my email list in a while it's because I'm slammed with work. I'm really booked up all the way through mid-July at this point. So like um I love it but it's also a little embarrassing when people are like I'd love to work with you and I'm like I'm sorry but can you wait? So just to say that uh the email list is such a great asset. And I think like to the topic of business without social media I had to take like five, six months away from my business almost entirely last year because my mom was sick and like life happened and family comes first. I came back sort of like in September and I was like well time to start up the business again. And I just started sending emails and lo and behold like my business just like started up like that. Like it was as if like it was just you know I just started emails everybody remembered that I was there. I I never even announced that I was gone. I didn't say anything about my family. It was just it was as if it never happened. And I've always thought like what an asset like what an asset that email list was to my business because I was able to take like a five month break and then just restart it like that. And social media would not have let me get away with that right social media it would have been like who's this lady? We've never seen her before um so just to say that an email list because it's all good subscribed people People were quite excited and lots of people replied back when I, you know, came back from the dead and actually used my email list again. Um, so just to say that I think that the email list, um, presenting in private communities, um, that's really all the marketing that I have to do to keep my schedule full. Um, and that's all I really want to do. So that makes me happy. And then you can enjoy those open rates that make you feel good about yourself. Um, it to me also, so there is like, I don't know a ton about email marketing deliverability, but there is something to be said for like if you're showing Gmail that your stuff gets opened, you do then get in, you know, out of the promotions and into the updates and all that kind of stuff. So like having a high open rate is good for you. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's pretty much like it's funny because every time I give a presentation, particularly in pro, people always come to me and say, like, oh, are you gonna do a course? Like, can you do a course? We'd love to buy your course. And I never had a good answer to that because I don't do social media. So, like, my I never want to be an influencer. And I know that the economics of courses is that you need to have a 10,000 list in order to make the like your conversion rate. Need I have 500 people on my list. Like, if 10 people buy, I'm not making much money. And so, like, it's never gonna be worth it for me to make a course. And then Ashley Hughes at Procon, which by the way was amazing. Um, Ashley Hughes asked me, okay, I gave the presentation on headlines, and she says, Oh, that was great. Like, why can you know, do you have a course? Can I buy it kind of thing? As people always do. And I finally had a good answer, which is like, oh no, I do this for marketing. Like, this is my marketing. This is all the marketing that I do. I give presentations and like that's how I show up in front of other people and you know, just introduce myself to people in the world. Um, and so like I've always I never really thought about it that way until she asked that question. And I'm like, I finally have a good answer, which is I don't, I'm never gonna make a course. I don't, I'm just not it, it's not what I want to do. Um, but mostly because I know that that's a package deal with social media. Like you can't do a course and have a gigantic audience without playing the social media game. And like, that's a non-starter for me. So I'm not gonna be an influencer. Um it's a different business model. I've always thought that like now that I kind of have this strategy, like have a signature talk, offer it to people. Like that that now is my new strategy that I will use going forward. I do think I probably need a new topic per year. Like, I can't just like keep on playing this topic forever. Although AI is very buzzy, so like maybe I can. Um, but the I think that I'll probably eventually retire this private community talk into a lead magnet on my site. So, like, actually, that's the original, the original genesis of that, the idea for that talk was I've long had my lead magnet is how Google works. Like, and then around last summer, I'm like, is that even accurate anymore? Like, you know, that's that's how Google worked. Um, now Google is working differently. And so that's what it was really like the the idea that I had for that talk was originally like, oh, that's a nice title. Wowie. That's almost exactly when I got off social media, twenty twenty-one. Oh, for sure. But it would be very easy for me to update that. I know what's wrong or what's changed in how I think about keywords from 2021 to now. So it's not that that's the problem. It's that um, it's interesting because I haven't done, I mean, really because of AI, I was originally of the mind that's like, I don't want to feed the machine, I don't want to give the machine my IP. So like I'm always like, I want it to be on my site and I want to own it. And like that's kind of always been my perspective. However, I recently uh connected with Meg Casebolt, who's probably the SEO that is closest to what I do. Um she's love at first search as her company. Um and she's also doing AI SEO stuff, and we just absolutely connected because like we're just both in the same little world. And one of the things where we differed in our recommendations is she's really big on making sure that AI understands your frameworks. So, like for you, that would be like build, like, build, maintain, grow. You know, like this is a framework that's very you. And and she was like, you know, you need to make sure that you've published all that stuff under your own brand, because if you don't, then somebody else is just gonna publish it and then it's gonna be like, you know, attributed to them. And so I had this the three R's of AI search, right? So that's like brand recognition, brand recommendation, and brand rec um sorry, brand recognition, um, brand reputation, and brand recommendation. Um, and I presented that to seven communities in my talk. Um, and then I also went on a bunch of podcasts. Turns out when you go to communities, then a lot of people invite you on podcasts too. So I did five podcasts, which were public, and then I did uh seven communities which were private, like not accessible

AI Search And Owning Your Frameworks

Michelle Bourbonniere 50:40

to Google, right? And so then I was like, you know what? She might be right. Like I might need to own this concept. It's becoming quite a central part to how I do AI SEO. And so then I decided to sort of like see what I could do in the AI engines to own that particular concept. So I took the newsletters that I wrote about each one, and I published them quite recently, just a couple of weeks ago, on my blog. And then I was also on um Jake Kramer, uh Slow and Steady, the podcast for Artillery Media, and we talked about that. And he's sort of in on this game now, too. And so he published a lovely post about mine, and it's like it's seeding this like idea of mine. And so I'm in the middle of a bit of like a research project slash experiment to see like to what extent can I get AI to associate the three R's, quote unquote, the three R's of AI search um with me as a brand. And it's like the results are very interesting. Like so far, um, you know, AI will be like internet and marketers sometimes talk about and they don't give me credit, or like it's just gonna be really interesting to see how I can optimize it for it, to see how much I can actually own this concept, which is a very small concept. So it's more of like, it doesn't really matter, but it's a fun little project for me. Um, and so I've been tracking it to see how much we should basically like to sum it all up is like, what is the recommendation going forward? Like, what should we keep private? What should we put on our sites? I think is an open question. And so like I'm kind of testing it and to see like what I can get away with. Um, it would be with this one particular concept because I know it's nowhere else on the internet. Like I control that concept. Um, and so far I think I'm very happy that I put the stuff on the internet um publicly because it's certainly better than it was before I had before I was only talking about it on podcasts. It wasn't clear at all that that idea was mine. Um so it's certainly better with it on my site. Another reason why it works so well, and this is Michelle Warner. So Michelle Warner was on your podcast. Such a good episode. Like, everybody should listen to it. I think you even you undersold it with like, you know, marketing for introverts, I think was the title. And I remember texting it to friends, being like, listen to this, even if you don't think you're an introvert. Um, but this whole concept of relationship marketing, like I listened to that episode and I was just nodding along the whole time. And I was like, oh, that's what I do. And so this is just an awesome, an awesome um episode. And one of the points that she makes is that um there's a trust transfer that happens when you go into a community, right? So, like when I go into a community and they say, here's Michelle, and we have invited her here, that's like they already trust the host of the community. And then you're being invited in and podcasts as well. Um, you're being invited in in a way that like makes it so that they're sort of like already predisposed to like you on some level because you're like invited into sort of a community. And it's also just a really fun, like so many communities are just fun places to hang out, like meaning I've fully enjoyed those presentations because you can tell that there's like a community feeling amongst the people that are there. Like there's just such a world of difference between like a pre-recorded summit presentation and like presenting to a small group of people that all know each other. Um, and and even the quality of the emails that come out of those. Like I get a lot of um email subscriptions from summit presentations. I've given the the presentation to two summits. Um, but most of those people end up getting purged six months later because they never opened anything. Um, whereas the the ones where it's been coming from like a private community, like those people stay quite engaged, like because they actually had like a back and forth with me, I think. And not just like I watched a video of hers once and the lead magnet sounded good. So good. And I think also, like back to your conversation with the guy on the podcast like just this week, um, it's it's showing up anywhere um with a training positions you as an expert from day one. So like people aren't expecting you to be a pixel pusher if what you came was like, I know UX and I know conversions, right? Like people completely change what they think a web designers can do if you don't show up saying, like, look at all of my pretty websites. Um, if you come in with strategy from day one, then people will perceive that as you from day one. And so I think like that is just always how I've worked. But I think that that's part of why it works, is that I've always kind of like taken a strategic approach to whatever it is that I'm teaching. Um, and so that people just perceive me as a strategist. Maybe fifth, fourth, sixth, not sure, something like that. Yeah. I think I'm like happier for it. And I also feel like I'm more in control of my business. I don't feel like I'm at the behest of an algorithm. I never feel like I have to dance on social media. Like I can, I can just do my own little thing and you know, just be I'm quite quiet about the success that I've had. Um, but it really does work. And like anyone who's listening and thinks like I've always wanted to get off social media and I don't know how, like, start trying other ways to get introduced to people that is sort of more in your comfort zone in how you actually want to be. And honestly, just finding other people that have already collected an audience that is a good audience for you and like working in like getting putting together a really great pit presentation and a really great pitch of something that's truly valuable that somebody else would want to share with their audience. Um, like that is it's always worked for me. Absolutely not. Um, so the only place you can find me on a social medium is pro. Um, but other than that, of course, I have a website that's wordsontherise.com. And then if you want part of this very exclusive group on my newsletter, um you can go to wordsontherise.com backslash AI, and that will get you on my list. And the first things you'll get actually are those three R's of AI search. So you'll get educated on that in the first three emails, and then from there on in, it's all just when I have something interesting to say, you'll get an email from me. Exactly. Do it. I'm all about like doing it on a human cadence, right? Like, why would you not social media makes you not do it on a human cadence. To me, I'm like, when I have something to say, I write it on my newsletter. And I think that's part of why I have such high open rates is that I've had many people be like, if you write, then it's an instant open. Um, because I don't like do it every Monday. It's not like it doesn't feel like, well, there's another one of those. Um yeah, just to say, for me at least, the very irregular cadence of my newsletter seems to work. Yeah, and it's funny, podcasts. I do feel like you do need to be more like I would be devastated if Monday morning I didn't have you to listen to. Um, so it's weirdly, I do think weirdly podcasts, I even kind of like kind of time my week based on when the podcasts I like come out. Like I know the date. Um, but I think that's because it's it's tied in with my life, right? It's not like, oh, I'm making the kids' lunches. And so, like, you know, it's a Monday morning, it's time to listen to Josh. Um, so I think, but but emails are always just kind of an interruption, right? Like it's just something in your email box. So it's I less like time my life around them. So I if you're gonna go human cadence on something, I fully agree. Go human cadence on um the email list and like say something when you have something that you're really fired up to say. And then that'll just come through, I'm sure, in the writing because it's like you you had to say it, and that's why you and then you've been playing it around in your head for a week and like it needs to come out in the world because otherwise you're gonna keep on thinking about it forever. That's kind of what I start to write is I'm all like, okay, I've outlined this in my head four times. It's really time to just like make it an email.

Final Takeaways And Next Steps

Josh Hall 1:03:19

A joy. So there you have it, my friends. I hope this helped you, especially if you're a one who does not enjoy the aspect of social media. Tons of strategies covered here to help you build your business in whatever marketing way fits for you. That is the beautiful thing about this industry. You can market, you can sell, you can grow. The way that's good too, and the way you want to do it. It's a wonderful world we're limited. So I really hope this helps. Leave us a comment, go to josh.co slash 428, do drop us a comment, let us shell know what you thought about this one, any takeaways you want to share. I do read all the podcast comments that comment. And be sure to check out all the links that we mentioned over there. Go to her website, wordsonthherise.com. Again, if you go to wordsontherise.com slash AI, she's got a free resource for you that I highly recommend picking up. Why would you not? You get on our email list. So make sure you do read her emails, otherwise people bounce yet. So yeah, just such a big fan of Michelle. So honored to have her in my inner circle of trusted colleagues. So happy to share what has worked for her with you in this one. Stay subscribe, my friends. We've got some tailor interviews ahead as well, so I can't wait to move forward this summer and give you the best of the best for the website business podcast. All right, my friends, have a great one, and I will see you on the next one.