434 - Offering AI Search (a Web Designer Pro Coaching Call) with Shane Vigeant

Want to know something that’s working great for web designers today? Offering AI Search + Local SEO. Especially if you’re working with local service providers in blue-collar industries.

Back that up with solid, conversion-based website design (plus hosting & maintenance) and you’ve got a winning recipe of growing monthly recurring revenue and results-based for years to come.

That’s exactly what Web Designer Pro member Shane Vigeant of tonewoodmarketing.com has discovered, because even though he’s building up his web design business on the side, it’s growing so much that he’s seen the light of going full-time in the near future. Especially at this rate.

That’s exactly what we discussed on a recent coaching call inside Pro that Shane was kind enough to allow me to repurpose for you here!

It’s a great convo to tune into if you want to know what’s working today for a web designer early in the journey with a focus on AI search + local SEO.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/434

P.S. Our resident SEO/Copy expert Michelle Bourbonniere also joins this one halfway through!

P.S.S. joshhall.co/workshop to register for my free, upcoming “What’s Working Now (in web design)” workshop happening Thursday, July 30th!

P.S.S.S. webdesignerpro.com/coaching to lock in the current rate before we move to an application-only model Aug 3

Transcript

Why This Coaching Call Matters

Josh Hall 0:00

Hey friends, welcome into a very special episode of the Web Design Business Podcast. This one is a part of one of our recent coaching calls inside of Web Designer Pro. Every week I go live inside of Web Designer Pro for these weekly calls, and the coaching tier members in Pro get access to do hot seats and deep dives into their businesses. We explore what's working. Sometimes we explore a challenge that they're going through, or maybe something that they want some coaching insight on. And this one, we're diving into something that's working for one of our members, Shane, with tonewoodmarketing.com. If you want to check that website out, I highly recommend it because Shane, even though he's fairly new into web design, is killing it specifically with offering AI search for clients, particularly those in uh local, like who have a local business where they really want to target AI search and help outrank their competitors. And he's just got a lot of good insight on how he's doing this. So we're gonna dive into this. Uh, and again, want to give Shane a big thanks to uh for allowing me to repurpose this for you here on the podcast. And we are gonna also in this one get to hear from our resident expert, Michelle Rubinier, to talk about AI search and copy and SEO and how that's all playing together and how it's such a win-win-win for web designers

Free Workshop And Coaching Deadline

Josh Hall 1:18

today. A couple last things I want to mention before we dive in. I am hosting a free workshop at the time of releasing this this week, July 30th at 12 p.m. Eastern. It's a Thursday. I am gonna be sharing what's working now in web design. We're gonna look at a ton of Web Designer Pro members, their sites, their offers, their price points, how they're building recurring revenue, how they're marketing. No guessing, no theory, no overwhelming AI ideas, just exactly what's working today in 2026. So make sure you sign up below or go to joshhall.co slash workshop. It is completely free. I'm gonna share with you what is working so you can grow your web design business and build your revenue, build your recurring revenue today in 2026. Last thing I want to note is if you didn't see the announcement, coaching for Web Designer Pro, the coaching tier is going to be changing on Monday, August 3rd. So you need to jump in now to lock in the current rate, and the model of the coaching tier is going to be changing to application only, and the price is gonna be increasing as well. So if you want to get in now, there's a monthly option or an annual option. If you want to have a one-on-one coaching call that's private with me, link below, or you can go to webdesignerpro.com/slash coaching to lock in your spot with the current price point by Monday, August 3rd, which is when that is changing. So if you want to be a part of these weekly calls and you want to potentially do hot seats and deep dives with me and get coaching with me personally, to where you can DM me 24-7 to get coaching with me to help you guide you and help you growing and building web design business, you can jump in now, webdesigner pro.com slash coaching before Monday, August 3rd. So gotta jump on it if you're catching this the week it comes out. All right, here we go.

Meet Shane And The Backstory

Josh Hall 3:04

Part of our recent coaching call with one of our new Web Designer Pro members, Shane, about what's working for him with AI Search.

Shane Vigeant 3:10

Hey, can you hear me okay?

Josh Hall 3:11

I can hear you. Oh, the Vegas Golden Knights hat. How about that? I guess are you closer to is that the team you're closest to? Or you Utah would be your your closest, right?

Shane Vigeant 3:24

Um Utah, Vegas, and Seattle are like kind of my three of like where I'm at right now. I'd say Utah and Seattle are like the same distance from me.

Josh Hall 3:34

Okay. Well, how are you holding up? For for those who aren't hockey fans, the Vegas Golden Knights were in the finals and didn't quite get there, although I wouldn't have bet against the Canes this year anyway.

Shane Vigeant 3:44

I'm holding up okay. I'm actually a Boston Bruins fan. Um originally from Massachusetts, but uh I the company I work for full time is headquartered in Vegas. So I go there and visit a couple times a year, and I always go to a game when I go. So gotta get the uh gotta get the merch and and and rep them whenever I'm visiting. Uh it's a really fun, fun place to go watch a game. I'm a big fan of Vegas, but um I uh yeah, I'm doing fine. I'm not super upset about it. I'm starting for Carolina.

Josh Hall 4:16

I've heard it's incredible. Like I can't imagine it being topped as far as a game experience in Vegas.

Shane Vigeant 4:22

Yeah, they got the uh they do a whole I mean it's obviously it's Las Vegas that they're gonna do a whole show. They got a golden knight running around smacking a shield with a sword, and and uh they do like he like slays a dragon mid-game. It's it's awesome.

Josh Hall 4:37

That's freaking great, man. Well, Shane, awesome to to finally connect with you here one-on-one, man, for the uh for the coaching call here. Um, dude, yeah, welcome to Pro. I love that you just jumped right in. You have an awesome site. Um do you want to just kind of give us a lay of the land and kind of where you're at with your business to kick us

Referrals Fueling A Fast Takeoff

Josh Hall 4:55

off?

Shane Vigeant 4:55

Yeah, totally. Um, so uh yeah, hey everybody, I'm Shane. I am the founder of Tonewood Marketing. Um and my business has just recently been taken off. I've been doing freelance work for about two years now, maybe a little bit more, but just this past year, I have just been getting a wave of referrals coming in. And it's making me feel like I can go and do this uh, you know, full time. I started out in the industry at a small agency. I helped uh just uh, you know, a founder just like me uh now. It was uh I was his first employee and he hired me right out of college. It was actually my neighbor on my street that I grew up on, and he had like 30 or 40 clients when I first joined, and now he's up to like 75 plus and killing it. I still do freelance work for him too. I'm kind of working like three jobs at the moment. Um, but um yeah, I just build websites all day, and uh this month has actually been my best month ever. Um, so you know that's kind of one of the reasons why I joined the coaching tier and and kind of uh wanted to get some some professional help because I'm building this on the fly. I'm really trying to make this work, and I would love to go on my own. I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur, and uh and this is the vehicle that I'm currently using to make that happen. It's uh it's really fulfilling work, and I get to help the people that I know, and then um, you know, I work with tons and tons of clients doing the same exact thing at my full-time gig, um, except uh, you know, instead of for small businesses, I build websites, uh online courses, run Amazon ads, and I do like digital marketing, coaching, group calls like this one for nonfiction authors. So I'm constantly um talking about the trade. I am constantly learning about the cutting-edge stuff um, you know, with AI and making and you know, building up people's personal brands to optimize themselves, to show up in search engines and really just, you know, put themselves out there. And um I'm excited to be on the other end of that. I've never actually received coaching before. I'm always the coach doing this on the call. So um I appreciate uh you, Josh, for putting this all together. I found you like a year ago through your podcast on Spotify. I listened to a few episodes, did all of your courses, reshaped my whole business. And uh yeah, because of you, I now have recurring payments. Um, and I have a model that I am like so excited about whenever I have a new client sign on. I'm like so pumped that you know, I have myself organized in this way. Um, so yeah, I feel very clear on like where I'm headed. It's just uh yeah, I'm ready to scale this thing up and get it going.

Josh Hall 7:48

Dude, freaking awesome, Shane. What an intro, dude. I'm so pumped for you. What an honor to be a part of your journey, kind of you know, on the outskirts now, but now we can really dig into this together. So pump for you. You have uh quite the emphasis. I just showed off your site briefly, on kind of AI first. Like I love, like it's pretty clear here. Modern marketing starts with AI. We help you master it. So I want to kind of dig into that because I think that will come into play for your lead generation. And just for context for everybody, um you know, Shane was kind of asking me like what type of lead generation could be a good fit. Um, could be free, could be low ticket, but I'm kind of curious with with right now for you, Shane, like you're getting a lot of traction on this. Are they just referrals that are coming in right now, just from previous clients?

Shane Vigeant 8:39

Yeah. So it's been friends, family, and then um I have uh a couple connections with investors here in Boise who keep throwing me work. Um, so it's all been referrals. And I haven't, yeah, but to answer your question, yeah, you can keep on going. But it's just been referrals.

Simple Lead Gen With A Newsletter

Josh Hall 8:57

Well, the reason I mentioned that too is that's gonna potentially affect like what a lead generation would look like for you. Because honestly, with where you're at right now and the connections and the network you have, I don't really see a need to try to do anything at scale that's like a free lead generator as much. I mean, honestly, I would just stop it's going well, and you just had your best month ever. No one, there's nothing to say that that's gonna stop. And actually, it may get even it may even ramp up even more leading up to the fall. So I actually think the the focus and the emphasis should probably be on just like absolutely knocking it out of the park for your current clients and then uh just you know selling, basically. I mean, I think it's always good to have a free lead generation tool of you know basically just email, like just growing an email list, even if it's 30 people. And I mean, I'm such a big proponent of this. For folks who haven't done this, have a at the very least a monthly newsletter. And I do have a playbook here in Pro. I'll post that in the chat. Um so for like for you, Shane, what I would probably do is just start a monthly newsletter and that could be your free lead generator to kick off. No pressure for you to you know have to worry about ads or anything like that right now with your current network. Because I think one different frame on this too could be like instead of putting any emphasis on ads or trying to do cold outreach, like what have you just maxed out your current network to its full extent? And obviously, the ideal dream is just to get them on a discovery call with you or whatever your process looks like. But the next best step is to just get them on your email. That way, at the very least, they're hearing from you and they're seeing your work, they're seeing client case studies. And every month I would have something like that. I would just, especially in the in the age of AI right now with everyone just feeling so overwhelmed. If you can share like an AI web design tip and then back that with like a recent project and update. I think that's probably all you need, man, to really get this next level.

Shane Vigeant 11:05

Yeah, I I agree with that. Um, it's something that I want to set up. Um, I literally set it up for clients every single day. I set I set them up with like uh, you know, a newsletter on their site, automated sequences and and funnels that you know drive people to go buy their books. And I just need to do it for my own business and and set all those pieces up. Um but I agree. Um the the network that I have is is pretty amazing and just keeping uh you know, I I want everybody that knows me to know that I build websites and do AI stuff. Um that's kind of uh what my plan is going forward and just building a little bit of a personal brand for myself. But I agree. I think um leveraging what I currently have. The only fear in my mind is that um I don't plan on staying in Idaho forever. Um I actually plan on moving back um to the East Coast in prop probably like a year, maybe two. Um so I just want to be able to build up enough business to sustain, you know, the lifestyle that I'm living here, you know, back over on the east coast where like because I'm doing like local SEO work here to show up in Boise and and uh and and you know be uh a figure of uh importance here. Um but uh yeah, I I do just want to kind of build up the repertoire and build up the portfolio before I move back so I can feel confident starting in a new place. But um I have even more connections back East Coast. Um these are just people that I've met through. Um, you know, they're my neighbors, they're people I play hockey with. Um, and uh just you know, oh I've been here for like three years and I've just kind of built up a small network over time.

Josh Hall 12:43

Well, I wouldn't max that out. I wouldn't even worry about the move because the really cool thing is like if you build your, let's call your you build your West Coast network, uh, even though you're not fully West Coast, you know, your midwest well, we're in the Midwest, that doesn't even make sense. So, you know, your west side connections, just build that up like crazy. And then if you do eventually, what you will eventually move back, honestly, like it doesn't mean you can't serve your local clients because they're you know, you can still do local SEO out west while being out east. You know, you know the region, you know, you know how to format it. So that's that's not an issue at all. Um, I think there's a misconception too about that, where a lot of people who want to do local SEO feel like they need to be in that local location, but not the case, like especially with all the tools we have available to us now, you can absolutely help businesses target that area. The other thing, we don't need to focus on this now, but one thing that could be interesting is eventually, depending on what your plans are to scale this thing, you could try to have a like local, either contractor or like semi-team member, or even like a sales rep who does sales for you and is in that location locally. Like I know Sam.

Shane Vigeant 13:54

That's what I was thinking about as well. Um, and and just like having like I'm not at that stage yet where I'm ready to hire a contractor because I can just handle all the work on my own. But um, yeah, I hope to get to a point where I can have like a trusted contact here. So when I do move back, they can, you know, handle that kind of piece for me. Cause a lot of my referrals, um, they're just they're old-fashioned guys, they like to meet in person at a restaurant or a coffee shop or something, and that's how kind of the whole process gets started.

Josh Hall 14:22

So yeah, you know, just have that seed planted. You're already thinking about it. So that's definitely what I would recommend doing. I mean, my agency in Transit Studios, we have Katie who's in North Ohio. Eric, my CEO, has been a digital nomad for years, and he hasn't been in Ohio until recently. So, like, you know, she's selling for in transit with a presence here, which is obviously where I'm based out of. Um, so yeah, you can do the same thing. So that's that's something kind of next level back that I would focus on. But as far as the lead generation, yeah, man, I would just focus on having a monthly newsletter. I mean, if you can send it more, awesome. But you know, you're like I said, you're running three jobs at once, basically. So at the very least, a monthly touch point for leads, sharing your work. And then if you ever have price increases or a new offer, um, again, I'd go through that playbook that I posted in the chat. Everyone can go check that out. It's the newsletter playbook. Um, it shows some examples of pro members who have newsletters. And I just think it's more important now than

AI Search Basics Long Tails Plus Schema

Josh Hall 15:20

ever. The one thing I would do though is since you're heavy into AI search, do you have like um do you have any sort of resources now that is almost like um a 101 beginner's guide to AI search that could help clients? Do you think you could put something like that together?

Shane Vigeant 15:36

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, I uh I don't have like uh you you DM'd me before this, and you were asking me to kind of dive into my process a little bit. And my answer is I don't have a process yet because nobody nobody has hired me for the AI services yet. It's all just been referrals, you know. Hey man, I need a website. Hey, I'm launching this brand. Hey, I it's a new business, and like let's get it going. Or it's most it's mainly investors, so they're like paying to start the business, so they're paying me for the website, and then um, you know, I get that all going. But um, yeah, I absolutely have resources. Um uh just one thing I just wanted to mention, like for you know, anybody here if they think they could find it valuable. I saw uh a presentation in San Diego um of this guy named uh Cassim Aslam. I I he gave me his book. Um it's called The AEO Blueprint. Um, so when I do build a process, it's gonna be built off what this guy um has shown me. And he has a school community as well. Um, and they do like uh once-a-week uh calls where it's like what's new in the AI search world or like what's happening in the world. So um I've been keeping up with that and just kind of trying to stay a little bit cutting edge with it because yeah, I am leaning into that. I think the future is um going to be pretty heavy into AI search. These tools are only gonna get easier to use, and people are going to be using like MetaGlasses and uh Siri and you know all their uh smart devices a lot more to ask about local businesses and find something that's really personalized to them. So I'm kind of just leaning into that narrative. Um, for you know, if anybody wants to hire me specifically for like AI services, um, you know, there's there's a whole process you can follow to optimize your your existing site or build from the ground up to make sure that you're showing up in those things. A lot of it is the same stuff that you know professional SEOers would do for a client. Um, there's just a few like small tweaks that you make to um be more intentional about you know the the the long tail keywords that you're that you're creating. Um schema markup is like it is a must-have for absolutely everything. That's what you should spend most time on. But um, yeah, I don't need to give a presentation on it, but um, that is why I'm leaning that way, just because that's just kind of where I see the future going and how I can kind of protect myself in this industry going forward.

Josh Hall 18:14

How uh well, what a segue, because we're gonna bring up Michelle. So, Michelle, I might actually go ahead and bring you up and we could riff on this

AI Ready Positioning With The Three Rs

Josh Hall 18:20

together. I Shane, I think you had commented on Michelle's presentation from a while back about how AI search works.

Shane Vigeant 18:27

Yeah, yeah, I just watched it. It was great.

Josh Hall 18:29

So I'll put that in the chat for anyone who hasn't gone through that yet. But how um so those specifics that you're talking about, the the kind of extra emphasis on the long key phrases and then schema, can you just expand on that and let's see what Michelle has to say about your process with AI search? Oh, by the way, just to put a cap on the lead generation monthly newsletter, I would just have an AI search guide that's like a 101, super simple. It's just a it's just a bonus for to for them to get on your email list. And you could say, like every lead, anytime we have a discovery call, you're gonna get my free AI search guide. Um that's I honestly think that's all you need. And then just you know, max out your current network, you'll be sitting pretty here by fall, I bet.

Shane Vigeant 19:10

Sweet. Um, I will set that up this week. Um, and we'll make that happen. Um, but uh yeah, the uh again, I don't have a process for it, so it's not like fully fleshed out. Hey, Michelle, your presentation was awesome, by the way. I loved watching it. I know it's like a a year ago, but I still think a lot of it is very, very relevant. And I think like the way that you put it with like the was it four Rs?

Michelle Bourbonniere 19:34

Three Rs.

Shane Vigeant 19:34

Three Rs, three Rs, like it's very clear explanation of just kind of like how it works. And um Thank you. Yeah, open roll. Thanks. Yeah, happy to be here. Um it's been on the back of my mind for a while. I always wanted to join the community, but um yeah, uh, I mean, uh yeah, I don't have a process that's not fully fleshed out. Uh I just kind of have like this book to follow as a guide, like, should somebody hire me to be this uh you know AI expert. Um, but I know that the the biggest, you know, important pieces uh in terms of website building is uh schema markup is like literally the most important thing that you could possibly focus on uh in terms of like making sure that you're showing up and make sure making sure that you're indexed properly and that these AI engines can read you quickly because you know they they don't read like the context as a whole, they like parse it in parts and it's all this complicated stuff. Um but that and then yeah, sorry, go ahead, Josh.

Josh Hall 20:34

I was just curious, what's your tool stack right now, Shane, as far as like how you're doing schema and everything?

Shane Vigeant 20:39

Uh rank math.

Josh Hall 20:40

Okay. So you're doing it all through rank math?

Shane Vigeant 20:43

Yeah, so everything like the same as schema. Um, I make sure you know all the services pages are scheme schemated as as services, blogs are articles, you know, pages are you know, you know, services as well. But um, and then you know, I I I spend a lot of time, you know, making sure that the social um social scheme is all set up. Like that's what I spend most of the back end time on is just building that and making sure it's super organized with pricing data, with descriptions, with titles that all make sense for this specific thing. Um so it's way beyond just like the basic SEO setup of optimizing home about contact media, like stuff like that. Like you need to go into each individual page, give give each page a better opportunity to get recommended. And inside of those, um, the copy itself should be um addressing specific concerns, you know, personalized to where people are at in their journey. Um, so uh you know, just uh doing some diligent to research on um what what uh potential clients or customers for a business are are like are. Looking up or asking uh ChatGPT and and Cloud because they're having conversations with these um you know AI uh chats and they are really diving deep into specifically what they're gonna need for them. So I mean it's it yeah, there's there's a lot of different pieces to it. Like AI just basically you have to do it's like the omnipresence of it all. You have to be everywhere, you gotta hit it from all the angles and um and uh you know build it in that way. I understand as I'm explaining this, it's very general because I don't have like a specific experience or like example I could share. So sorry, I don't have that.

Josh Hall 22:41

Well, that's the irony here is like the journalized the journalized stuff is exactly what works.

Michelle Bourbonniere 22:47

And and like AI is just so new, like you ever all babies, like nobody has done this yet. And so like I actually find that freeing in the sense that you don't have to pretend to your clients that you know how it all works or like that that you have this like amazing system that's gonna like change their life. It's like, oh, like this is just a good forward-looking thing to do. We see the writing on the wall, we know where this is heading. Now's probably a good time to make sure the bots understand who you are. Um, and so that's kind of how I explain it to clients. So it's not, I'm not saying like, oh, like you're just gonna get amazing quick results and like all this stuff, but it's like, I don't know, it's just like clearly a foundational moment. And so, like making sure that we pay attention to how um a brand is being represented by AI chatbots, like AI chatbots make so much mistakes. And if you don't put the information on your site, then it doesn't know it and it just makes stuff up. So it's kind of like no one else is gonna fix that problem. Like, you gotta put the information on your site to make sure that like that person in that particular persona has like that the AI has something to pull from when it's like talking about the brand. And so that's what I've been, that's why I like that's why I did those three R's is because like I think a lot of it for small brands is in the two first two. Like, does the brand understand? Does do AI chatbots understand this brand as a brand? And then if they do, like, do they understand it well? And like that's fun work. Honestly, like I've been doing it all year and like it's it's sometimes tedious because I spend a lot of time like analyzing chatbot responses. Um, but it's pretty fun. I kind of feel like a scientist sometimes. Just to say in clientelection, like just to say, if anything, like I think your your positioning is great. Like I love the AI ready language, like I think that's just such a good way of putting it. It doesn't overpromise, but like that's it, right? And and so much of it is traditional SEO, right? Like, like just having a site that Google understands is still the foundation, like it always was. And so I think AI ready is like not overpromising, but it like speaks to like what is very much in the zeitgeist right now, which is AI. And so like people come to me wanting AI when they don't even have SEO yet. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, like, let's just get the basics done. And then I'm like, okay, now we can have some fun. Um, but like just to say, I think it's an attractive proposition.

Shane Vigeant 24:54

Yeah, totally. And that was one of my my biggest fears once AI came out in like 2022, is like, oh my God, I just learned everything about SEO and now I'm gonna have to throw it all out the window. But it's not the case at all. It's literally the same thing, it's just uh you just kind of have to, you know, do a little bit more, um, like really dive into the details of how these things are reading

Proving Results With Before And After

Shane Vigeant 25:16

your sites. Um, I do have one win though um that I can share. I built a website for a roller rink in my area, and um, and they had a website that was built in like the 90s. The the the before and after is on my website, it's pretty incredible. Um and um and I I like I chatted with him for for quite a while, and like uh, you know, I was like, dude, we gotta bring you to the 21st century. We gotta we gotta get this thing up and going. And um, and I built out a site, did all the SEO work behind the scenes, and did a before and after of like his uh how he was showing up in AI before and then how he was showing up in AI after, and it was worlds of difference. It had so much more information on him. It had links to his pages to go book and book private parties and all this stuff, and it was like within weeks we saw huge differences.

Josh Hall 26:06

So did you on that scene, did you record a video before you launched the website and then like going through the LLMs? Or how did how did you do like a before and after with searches?

Shane Vigeant 26:18

So I just did it like you know, when I was trying to get him to come on as a client, I kind of just like you know, did a chat GBT search and like showed him what was showing up. And then, you know, I I meet with him, like I play hockey with him every week. So I just like showed him afterwards, and uh yeah, the difference was incredible, like what was showing up in the Google AI overviews, the fact that his all his pages were indexed um on Google and like everything was just being read. There were like FAQs being pulled from a site that weren't being pulled earlier. Um, so uh I just have screenshots. I wish I took a video, but um, but yeah, the um the difference was was was big.

Michelle Bourbonniere 26:55

I've had fun with like especially when I know a site is about to re be so maybe I've done a report and then like I know that they're gonna redesign the site. Like it is fun to have the before and after, right? Because you're like, I did that. Like that, even sometimes I feel like with AI search, it sometimes feels like you're optimizing, like, and maybe no one's gonna see it. Like you just never really know because we don't have any visibility into other people's chats, right? So we don't really know the impact until somebody says, like, oh, I found you through Claude. And then we know that there's an impact. Um, but so sometimes it's like it's very satisfying to have those before's like screenshots from before and screenshots from after can make you feel like you know you're really doing the work. Um, so I have some examples, like really simple stuff. Like I have a client who all of her competitors, like chatbots kept on saying, like, this competitor is so science-based and so science-based and evidence-based. And I was like, my competitor, my person's just as evidence-based as they are. And so then you just like change the language on the site. And it's all like, look, now she is very evidence-based too. Um, so like it's just like it takes looking at the details to say, like, oh, like what's the trait that somebody else has that we want? And then just like edit the site or or put it somewhere so that there's there's evidence of that that it can pull from. Like at the end of the day, it's basically summarizing what it finds on the internet. And so, like, you just have to place the stuff on the internet somewhere in order to like change the narrative. Like, I mostly spent the year being shocked how much control we have compared to SEO, which we have much less control. Like, you know, the rankings are the rankings. Like, we do the best we can, but like it's not like it, you know, you're it's a competitive game where getting an AI chatbot to say what you need it to say is actually like pretty easy. You just have to notice what's wrong and then like make the changes. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Josh Hall 28:34

Question for Michelle. Shane, you may know about this too, but like when it comes to putting the correct information that may be either local page-based or just service-based FAQ section or in the content, or does it kind of doesn't matter?

Michelle Bourbonniere 28:50

Like, it just needs to be on the site. Like, if anything, so like one thing like old SEO, I spent a lot of time telling people like there needs to be a page for that, there needs to be a page for that. Like, that's a distinct intent, so it has to have a page. Um, and copywriters like me more now because I'm like, ah, it can all go on one page. Like, it really doesn't on it because of this whole passage, like, you know, it's in my talk, like the sort of um AI reads passages, not pages. Like, that's true. And so, like, you can kind of put it anywhere. I mean, I think the reason why FAQs have sort of taken off in the zeitgeist of like uh, you know, AI search people talk about FAQs as this magic solution is it's just an easy way to structure stuff, right? So it's an easy way to like add in information onto a page without having to rewrite the page, right? It's like it they're nice little chunked things, and you can just have a question and then answer it, then have a question and then answer it. Um I don't think it really matters. Yes, there is schema for FAQ. And schema like is I think schema is always good. Um, especially I think the the I like the same as schema, the sort of connecting the dots type schema that says like this company is also this social media account is also this profile page on this directory is also like, you know, someone like you, Josh Hall, with a very similar name. Like Google doesn't know you from the other Josh Halls unless you connect the dots. And so um making sure that Google knows for you like all of your different properties are all the same thing, like that schema. And that's where it's really like, yeah, that's fun stuff. Yeah, I was really, I was the same as you, Shane. Like 2022, I was like, do I even want to do this? Like, especially because I like working with small brands. And I'm like, if I can't really recommend it anymore, um, then I can't do this. Um, but then 2023, once they started doing like um the grounding and like the searches, that just made a gigantic difference in the accuracy of AI and in how much of an opportunity it can be for small brands.

Josh Hall 30:37

There's actually I feel like the one area of AI that I'm most optimistic and pleasantly surprised about has been AI search. Like it is true. It's like they've done it, they've done a good job at cracking down slop and terrible content, and they really have focused on like good and and the reputable stuff. I mean, actually, just literally last night, I just because every once in a while I'll go incognito and just search like ChatGPT or Claude and just like tell me about Josh Holler. I'm looking for a web design coach, give me some recommendations. And like ChatGPT on my search last night was like pretty bang on. It was like, you know, I'm like, shoot, I'm gonna use what that said and put it on my site because it was actually you know tightened up better than I have right now. Um, so all considered, yeah. I'm pretty happy about that.

Michelle Bourbonniere 31:21

Sometimes you do get ideas from AI that way. Like you see the AI summary of something and you're like, oh, that should be on my site, actually. Like maybe it's somewhere else on the internet, but it's not on your site, and that's why it ended up in that response. So, like I actually have made some recommendations to clients recently that are kind of in line with that. It's like, oh, you should actually explicitly say that, even though like you haven't explicitly said that, but that's a really good thing. Like you are certified by XYZ organization, and like that should be on your site. It's a good social proof point.

Fixing Misinformation Across The Web

Josh Hall 31:50

Also, similarly, like for everyone who has a listing elsewhere, or if you have clients who have multiple listings, you got to make sure the info lines up. Because, like, for example, we have a uh listing on circle discover, which is like the circle marketplace. And I'm reminded how that's showing up because like that's that's pretty like it's it's up there on the rankings when you search Web Designer Pro or Josh Hall now. And I'm reminded, like, when I update my site on stuff, I gotta make sure I update that too because it is.

Michelle Bourbonniere 32:20

I had last week I was working with one of my long-term clients. Um, she's a public speaking coach, and I was trying to untangle where all the misinformation was coming from. And it's the most random pages that, like, you know, like her profile page on me.com, like the Apple thing that she wrote like a hundred years ago, that's like really old messaging. And it's like, she didn't remember that she set up a profile page on me.com, but AI found it. And then was like using that messaging, which is old messaging, like isn't how she positions herself now. And it's easy to change, but you have to figure out where it took me forever to figure out. Like, I had to follow a lot of links to be like, where is this coming from? Um, so just to say that yeah, like like you know, chat GPTing yourself and then clicking to see like what are the sources that are influencing this brand, and then just making sure that that's updated messaging, like especially if you have edit access to those pages. But like as you've grown, you want to make sure that like the internet keeps up as much as you can.

Josh Hall 33:16

Shane, any last words on AI search? Otherwise, we have a couple questions. I'd love to have you guys up on maybe these questions if you guys still have any time. Although I know, look, Shane, you're busy. If you need to run at any point, just let me know.

Shane Vigeant 33:27

Um no, I'm good. Um, I honestly I I think Michelle knows more than I do. So uh I think she's uh she's summed up a lot of it really well.

Michelle Bourbonniere 33:38

Um and yet your site says that you do AI search and mine doesn't. So you're ahead.

Josh Hall 33:44

Yeah, the irony. Shane just positioned himself like the expert, thus, he is the expert here.

Shane Vigeant 33:50

So yeah, my website says it is. So uh, like you say, you know, I change I I changed the internet. That's that's what I can tell on the internet I do.

Josh Hall 33:59

You change the internet. That is a great line. Um, from Moses, how do you balance family and three jobs, Shane? Didn't mean for this to be an interview for you, but what's the family situation look like for you?

Shane Vigeant 34:10

Um, so I it's just my wife and uh two dogs and a cat. Um, no kids at the moment. Uh so uh how do I balance it? I don't know, just working all the time and uh making uh making time for fun. I uh I I I do a lot of mountain biking. I play hockey out here, um, and we go camping on the weekends, do day trips and stuff. So we just try and live life and have fun and and uh and not focus our entire life on work.

Josh Hall 34:40

Awesome. We'll try we'll get you full time and get all sorted before the kids come along, then if that's in the future plans.

Shane Vigeant 34:45

Yeah, that would be amazing.

Divi 5 Confidence And WordPress Strategy

Josh Hall 34:47

I can help I can help you out there. Um Varvara had a good question here. Now it's interesting because so I'll I'll kind of sum this up. Um Varvara's feeling a little discouraged with WordPress and trying to think strategically about the future of her business. Her specialty has always been WordPress and Divi. By the way, Shane is on Divi5. Are are all your sites on Divi5?

Shane Vigeant 35:08

No, just the the last like three or four.

Josh Hall 35:10

Okay. How are you finding five, by the way? Did you have you got used to the variables? Yeah.

Shane Vigeant 35:15

I once I built uh my I rebuilt my uh Tonewood website on it. Once uh and like uh everything broke when I when I brought it over from Divi4, so I literally had to like rebuild most of the elements. Um, I had like plugins in there from Divi Life and stuff, so none of those worked. Um and honestly, after spending like one long, long night on just you know rebuilding all of that stuff, I picked it up like immediately, and now it's my default. Like, so anybody using Divi4, if you're like worried about switching over to Divi5 or took a look and you're not like ready to jump in yet, just build one site with it, you'll pick it up right away. It's the same builder.

Josh Hall 35:55

Love hearing that because I know a lot of people have been super hesitant on it.

Shane Vigeant 36:00

Much faster, too, like way faster in like the builder itself and um uh the like the the overall speed uh like optimization too. It's showing up better on like Google Page Speed Insights.

Josh Hall 36:12

Yeah, and that that kind of reason I wanted to get your insight on that, Shane, was because Rivar is saying she's learning Divi5, feeling a little demotivated, uh investing more time into a platform that feels increasingly clunky, manual, and maybe not long-term choice in the age of AI. Well, the good news is on that, I don't know where it is now, but I know Divi AI is coming out with like their like MCP style like agent inside of Divi5, so it's gonna actually like build stuff, just like all the platforms are coming out with. Um so let me get to Varvar's question, but I'm not feeling confident yet that I can handle bigger custom-coded projects, especially when it comes to SEO security and handoff. Trying to figure out whether I should even keep spending my time on Divi5. Um I mean, I think you know, Shane just answered a lot of that as far as like getting used to to the builder. Um I guess I don't know. I mean, my my thought is it would take a lot, and this is just kind of my overarching thought for anyone who has a builder that's transitioning or evolving. Like, I would not be quick to leave something unless it is just absolutely a no-go for you anymore. And it doesn't sound like you're there yet, Barbara. So I would say, like, you know, like kind of like Shane did, like, maybe just try a fresh, clean slate build and maybe a fun project just to experiment with with some of the new functionalities of five, because it the thing about Divi5, and Shane, you'll probably attest to this, it's like it's definitely not a DIY, you know, um, beginner builder like Divi was a decade ago. It is very much a pro tool. That said, you don't need to know like all the features. I don't even know all the features right now, and I've been using Divi5 for well over a year. So I don't know if you have any insight on that, Shane, while you're here, as far as like, did you run in any roadblocks that you kind of got past when you were learning? Because it can be overwhelming. I totally understand it can be overwhelming.

Shane Vigeant 38:10

Yeah, I I like bought um uh Tim Streifler's Divi Life course, like when you know, Divi Divi5 was first not when it was first rolled out, but when they first like kind of made it mainstream past the beta phase and um the beta testing. And um I didn't take the course. It was like a live course, and I I just like watched all the replays afterwards just because I I took the first like two lessons, and I'm like, this is just overwhelming. I have 10 websites I gotta build, and I don't want to switch all this over and learn this whole new thing. Um, not to say that his course wasn't helpful, um, but because I did go back and re-watch it. Um so maybe that helped me pick it up a lot faster. But um truthfully, I I think if you uh try just rebuilding one of your websites on Divi5, like it's it's just like Divi4. It's just like the everything's just positioned in different places. And yeah, it's it's a way more advanced builder, it's it's more for pro people than DIYers for sure. So um the the Divi4, um yeah, uh Timstrifer just described Divi4 as like a toy hammer, and then Divi5 is like the actual hammer, like it's a real tool. Um, so um yeah, I've I just switched over like a couple weeks ago, and now I'm literally I'm not going back.

Josh Hall 39:33

That's awesome. Well, Bravari, I hope that helps. Shane, really appreciate you. Um man, this was a timely time to bring you up with both your Divi5 experience in the AI search stuff. So um really appreciate you both sharing some insights on AI search, what's working? And again, Michelle, your sage wisdom is always uh a necessary thing to hear because, like you said, we're all babies in this. It's so new. That's why anyone, anytime I see a YouTube video about an AI expert, I'm like, how can anyone call themselves an AI expert right now?

Michelle Bourbonniere 40:03

Yeah. Like, I mean, you can be as expert as anybody, but like it doesn't like I think having a background in SEO still helps. But beyond that, like it's like I I have a client that I've been working with for a full year, and she's wonderful. And I'm giving her, I gave her reports every three, every month for three months, and now we're into quarterly reports, and she hasn't implemented a single thing. They're very busy, they're selling tons of stuff. Um, and yet the amount of change in the results over the course of the year has has been significant because the AI models are changing a lot. And so, like, it's not a cause and effect. It's not because I gave great recommendations and then now it's changing. It's just like things change. And so, just to say, like, you know, when they when they launch a new model, then like ChatGP decides that he doesn't want to do citations anymore. And like, like these things are for real. And like, there's not that many people that are tracking it, probably as closely as I am. Um, but yeah, I mean, just to say that these things change all the time, even market behavior is changing, like which chatbots people are using is changing a lot. And so, like, you know, we can be we're like, we're way ahead of our clients. They're just using AI, right? Like they're like, oh yeah, I guess I use it a lot for this and that. And like maybe I should be in that. And so, like anything you can bring, like I don't think I've had a single person on any call ever not be interested in AI stuff. I don't like they're very interested in it. They get it. Like, there was like New York Times articles about it, like it's a thing.

Josh Hall 41:24

I actually heard, I think it was um, oh shoot, uh Dan something. I don't know, pop popular um entrepreneur who has a lot of YouTube videos on AI. And uh he was saying, like, to the outside world, every AI tool is Chat GPT. And I've actually found that to be true. Like, if you just say AI, like no one's thinking about Claude or Jim and I or anything else. Um, one of my neighbors who's actually like he was kind of a techie guy, he had never even heard of Claude recently. Uh, because I said I I switched over to Claude and he was like, What's that? I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah. Like we're just in it, you know, in the online world that the average person, yeah, they just think AI is a good idea.

Michelle Bourbonniere 42:00

And I also think that the most important one is still Google. Like in my mind, most people are still Googling most of the time, and they're getting a lot of AI results when they do that. Like, it's amazing to see how much AI is integrated right at the top of pretty much every search result that has like almost all things have AI overviews now. And like those AI overviews are starting to get conversational. Like in the last couple months, I've noticed a lot more of the sort of like that final question thing, be like, Can I help you with that? Um, and like AI overviews used to be kind of an endpoint. Like you read the summary and then you go to the SERPs. And now they're more like it's like Chat GPT. Like it's it's trying to start a conversation with you. Um, and so like these things really are changing like month to month.

Shane Vigeant 42:39

It's fine. And and Jamin, uh, one thing I learned too, and like uh from this guy, the the book that I that I need to read that book. I listened to it. Yeah, I'll put the um I'll put the link in the in the community so you guys can have it. Um is that every single new like Microsoft computer that you buy, like normally when you um are maybe it's not Microsoft, uh like Google has its own like tablet or its own computer or something. Um and whenever you buy that, the default used to be Google, now it's Gemini. So like that's that's a big change too. Like it's they're now using this as like the default. And he also like um went into how he's got like a team of like nine people researching thousands of keywords and thousands of searches like every single day, and keeping track of like where all these all these sources are being pulled from. ChatGPT pulls from Google, Cloud pulls from Google, and then um, but uh Google itself has been um it's been pulling less and less from uh Google searches, which is this is their theory, you know. Maybe it's a tinfoil hat thing, but it's suggesting that they are rebuilding their search from the ground up. Um from I have a an article that you have to read.

Michelle Bourbonniere 43:53

Sorry, I interrupted. Um there's an article that's literally how they like five years ago, we're like, this is our vision. We're gonna rebuild search from the ground up. So I will I will put it in it's called rethinking search. Okay. Okay, I'll I'll find it and put it in the chat.

Shane Vigeant 44:07

Yeah, that would be a good idea.

Michelle Bourbonniere 44:09

Like it's it's it's like basically they're trying to move away from a model where everything is they would love to put the documents into the index so that the LLM and the index are like integrated. Um, they haven't, I think, done it yet, but that's their goal. And like that would change everything, actually.

Shane Vigeant 44:23

Yeah, like if you think Google's going away, it's it's definitely not. They're literally rebuilding and they're gonna become like industry standard. And like, I mean, this is you know, Googling is a verb. So people are just always gonna go there and uh and do it. So they're just gonna make it better and better over time. And yeah, again, another reason why I'm leaning into this hard uh going forward. Cool.

Michelle Bourbonniere 44:43

Well, it's excited to have you in pro. Like, seriously, so excited to have somebody else that's thinking about AI search as well. We're glad that you're here. I'm glad that you're here.

Josh Hall 44:51

That article sounds like uh Shane's first newsletter, maybe.

Michelle Bourbonniere 44:56

It's pretty geeky.

Josh Hall 44:59

That's what that's why clients need it. Clients need the like explain it like I'm five version. I also need that too, so it's appreciated.

Shane Vigeant 45:06

Yeah.

Josh Hall 45:07

Awesome, guys. Uh, Shane, Michelle, thank you both for your time. Thanks for coming up. Shane, welcome to Pro. Freaking awesome.

Shane Vigeant 45:13

Cool. Thanks, Josh.

Josh Hall 45:14

Go nights go. Hey, if you ever see William Carlson Carlson in the streets, let him know we miss him in Columbus, if you would.

unknown 45:19

Okay.

Josh Hall 45:20

All right, guys.

Wrap Up And How To Join

Josh Hall 45:22

So, again, big thanks to Shane for allowing me to repurpose this portion of our recent coaching call for you. I hope it helps, especially if you're interested in SEO and copy and AI search and how all that can work together. Again, if you would like to lock in the current rate for the Web Designer Pro coaching tier, which is going to change on Monday, August 3rd, you got to jump in now. Go to WebdesignerPro.com slash coaching to jump in. You will lock in that rate, and you'll be able to get coaching with me 24-7. You can DM me anytime. And then we do a lot of coaching just back and forth via DMs. I send Loom videos all the time. Anything I can help you with guiding you to help you grow and build your business, I'm here for you. And you'll get access to these weekly coaching calls along with a slew of other perks and benefits as well. There is an annual option if you want to lock in, an annual subscription, and do a one-on-one private 60-minute coaching session with me as well, webdesignerpro.com/slash coaching. And if you're catching this the week it comes out, good luck. You can join our free workshop that's up this week, July 30th, Thursday at noon Eastern. And we're going to dive into what's working for other Web Designer Pro members to help you grow your business as well. That one's completely free. It'll be a great little final chance for you to see what's working and ask me any questions before jumping into the coaching tier again by Monday, August 3rd. All right, guys, hope you enjoy this one, and I'll see you on the next episode. Cheers.