Not By Chance Podcast
It’s hard to define what a successful and happy family is, much less how to achieve one. Dr. Tim Thayne, a thought-leader in teen treatment and parent coaching, shares inspiring best practices gleaned from decades of his own and other expert’s work related to intentional family living. Whether your family is in the midst of a major struggle or you are looking for fresh ideas to help you prioritize and enhance your home life, this podcast is for you.
Not By Chance Podcast
Recognizing the Testing Phase
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Dr. Tim Thayne interviews Kelly Olsen, the clinical director at Homeward Bound. She has had a lot of experience helping families as their teen comes home from treatment. So she knows exactly how families will be tested and how she can help them get through that inevitable testing phase.
Welcome to the not by chance Podcast. I'm Talmage. Tim, Thayne son and podcast manager. Today, Dr. Tim Thayne will be interviewing Kelly Olson, Homeward Bound clinical director they interviewed during the homeward bound advance in 2019. The title of this episode is recognizing the testing phase.
Dr. Tim Thayne:I'm Tim Payne with the not by chance podcast. And we are going places today with kelly olsen, the Clinical Director at homeward bound. And before that, she has been in this field of working with adolescents for well over 20 years now. Time flies when you're having fun, Kelly. And she's she's had experience kind of along the continuum, which is really kind of interesting. High School, tell me real quick what it was that you did in high school.
Kelly Olsen:So I volunteered for a family respite center, where parents who were struggling with anger management, or just with their relationship with their kids, where they felt like they couldn't always keep them safe. They could bring them to the center, drop them off, they would be in a safe place, parents could get support counseling, and then when they were ready, could take their kids home. So I volunteered for caring for the kids. And that's just doing some education.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's fantastic. And then then you were a wilderness guide, for a while
Kelly Olsen:I was.
Dr. Tim Thayne:And you know what I've noticed with Kelly, and I love this, if you're ever, ever able to spend some time with Kelly, a lot of times she will teach and some of the things that she will share come from her experience all the way back as a wilderness guide. Because there's nothing like nature to sort of bring the principles to life. And so maybe we'll see that in today's podcast, little challenge for you throwing a little wilderness. Yeah,
Kelly Olsen:we do always say the natural language of the wilderness guide is metaphor. So this this trail is like. I'm sure some of that will show up.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's awesome. And then she worked at a residential treatment program, therapeutic boarding school, and then we were lucky enough to get Kelly 1314 years ago, yeah, that homeward bound. And so she's been with us a long time. She's an incredible coach, amazing person. And we're really glad to have her on the podcast and let her share some of her wisdom and knowledge with you. Where on this podcast, we're really trying to help families live intentionally, to strengthen their families. And so we're going to cover a couple of things that we typically encounter, and want to do during times when teens are coming back from treatment. Is that right? Yep, that's correct. So you want to introduce the topic today.
Kelly Olsen:So the topic I think we want to focus on might take two different tracks or incorporate two different principles. One is recognizing the testing phase. Because I think, and I try not to jump into the weeds here, or jump right into the thick of it. But it's hard to recognize a testing phase versus what is really moving you backwards. So what does it take to understand that? What part does that play? And then what are some of the things that you can do to navigate the testing phase successfully? And those are things that we had to learn even some things that made us a little bit uncomfortable that we now understand and have to lean into.
Dr. Tim Thayne:So Kelly, could you give them a little bit more sense of testing phase in terms of where it fits in all of the transitional stages and phases that we see?
Kelly Olsen:So we learned pretty early on that there are four phases of transition, right? There's that anticipatory phase where you're excited, but nervous about the next step. And after treatment and what's going to happen, then there's that honeymoon phase, which for some families is commonly and joyfully, extensive. And for some families that lasts about two minutes, and To their dismay, yes. And then you start to see this resurgence of old behavior. And I think, probably what you experienced, and what I experienced previous to really looking at this closely, was that we'd see kids go home from treatment. And then about three weeks, four weeks later, we'd see them come back or they'd go on to another program. And it started to feel like, well, home just as awful like, kids can't make it. What do we do there? But when we realized, hey, when you come home, it's not just going to be smooth sailing, and you're never going to have a problem again. Now that isn't what it looks like. But what would happen to families is something old would occur. And sometimes it was something very simple a curfew violation. A bad day where everyone's just in a grumpy mood and some old arguments come up. Those things would underlie Everything else was going on. And so parents, kids, everyone would start to filter that through this idea of Oh, my gosh, we haven't changed. So are we right back where we started. And that's the testing phase. That's where you're testing each other. You're testing your new story, your new reality. You're trying to use new skills, you're trying to understand new boundaries. And it's a shaky process. Sometimes it's just easier to go back to what you know. And so you abandon change, you abandon that persistence? And that's the testing. Yes. Right.
Dr. Tim Thayne:So Kelly, how parents are kind of facing this transition? How many of them will go into the testing phase?
Kelly Olsen:To date 100%.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Every parent out there is going, I want to be the one that doesn't do this. But what does that do in your mind for them to understand that this is coming, and it's an it's 100%? Likely to come? And it's normal? What are the benefits of that for for parents?
Kelly Olsen:I think they can, to an extent, prepare for what their reactions can be for how they can persist in their skills and have this idea of persistence, and maybe even looking at ways to build their stamina through that process, knowing that it's coming. How do we strengthen ourselves to understand what that might be? And you mentioned normal, I mean, for us, as coaches, how comforting was that to figure out the testing phase that, okay, this is normal. And this isn't something that we're doing wrong? That's craziness for the family. To help, you know, the navigation of it.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yeah, I remember thinking we were failures, because every one of our families has gone through the testing phase. But you're right, what how comforting was that to us now. So times that by 10. For a parent who understands that this is coming. I had a unique experience. One time when I was going to do in this. I was doing the not by chance video course. And one of the parents in the audience is like it clicked for her. We were talking about the testing phase. And it clicked for her and she got this big smile on her face. And I couldn't help but just look at her. It's like, what are you thinking, There's something we're talking about something scary for everybody. And you got to smile, she said, she goes, this is my chance to try again, and to be successful. And I'm looking forward to it. Now, that's a rare individual. Most of us are not, like bring it on. But but she caught the vision that was pretty interesting to see that because of that education, and knowing that it was inevitable, but feeling like she could prepare, like you said, there was this confidence about her that she hadn't felt in a long, long time. So let's get into kind of the prepare and Splyce. Specifically, you wanted to mention some of the resources that are available to to families as they go through this transition.
Kelly Olsen:Yes, and are some of the things to lean on to consider and, and to take into account. So the first one and this isn't a resource, but is perspective. So going into this knowing that it is going to be a testing phase, as much as you prepare, you're not going to be able to predict everything, you can't predict the future, there's not this magical right path where every single thing goes, right, it's this path will have some challenges. And this is how we can address those challenges. This is how we can prepare for what we see in front of us. And then we also know we're going to be a little bit flexible. So we we need that sort of creative approach. And that that perspective of consistency. So here's what happens. I think for a lot of parents, when they start to do something different, especially after treatment, it's it's scary for their kids, it's scary for them, it's new territory. And what we've learned, right is when you increase consistency, the first response you generally get from your teen is increased chaos. And then it makes you feel like you're doing something wrong, instead of persisting with that consistency. So one thing to do is to strengthen yourself is to find a home team, which is a concept we talked about a lot of just your natural mentors, your natural supports, and find a way to bring them into that process. Not just for your team, but for you as a parent. So who's going to give me perspective, when I'm feeling shaky, who's going to remind me of the plan. I mean, so many times I have parents that have just really good plans. And then they call me in the moment of stress because they're the one standing in front of the screaming teenager, right? And that's a hard place to be so they call me in that moment of stress and just say, Oh, I forgot the plan. I know there's a plan, but I forgot the plan. And it's just finding the people in your life that can Okay, this is the testing phase that we were talking about. What can I do to help and can do we just need to talk it through what can help you in that regard. So it's expanding your influence home team, having the right perspective on consequences and boundaries and what you're doing differently and why. So just as an example there, I have a family that they they know their pattern, they very much know their pattern. And yet every time they hit that discomfort point in changing the pattern, they question themselves, like they second guess. And to share a wilderness metaphor. I was on a guiding a trip one week where my backup supervisor kind of came into our camp and said, Hey, we, this GPS broke, or we don't have an extra compass. But you know, this terrain, Kelly's like, you can just get your group there, you don't need it, you can just do it with a map. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can do that. I'm so good at this. And yet in the process, as we were navigating, we took this turn, that was just a little bit too early, we were going in the right direction, we were in the right place, but it looked a little bit unfamiliar. And so we just started to second guess everything that we were doing, even though we were going in the right direction. And it took me kind of crawling back up and just kind of talking through, okay, I think these are the landmarks that I'm seeing. And finally back up saying, you know, where you're going, you've got this, it looks a little bit unfamiliar, but persist, and you're going to see this, you're going to see these markers of change of where you're headed. And you can see the metaphor there, that families need to define those markers for themselves, and what helps them persist.
Dr. Tim Thayne:And sometimes you might need that outsider to say, You're right on track, you know where you're at, you're going to start to see this. And that may be a predicting of what you're gonna see. So that when you do, it's like, yes, you're right. I'm right where I need to be.
Kelly Olsen:Yeah. And one thing I didn't bring up earlier, when we were talking about the phases of transition, is that last phase that we're trying to get to, which is confidence. Yeah, we would love it. If it was like perfection, right? We're getting to this place where you're not going to have any problem ever again. But it's really that place of confidence, where you know, that even though there's a challenge that's going to happen, you can recover from that you can navigate it well, you can move forward. And I love it. When parents get to that point where they've hit a challenge or, you know, bad grade showed up, there was a curfew violation. And even though things are going better, they're still dealing with those little kind of teen things. And they call me and instead of saying, oh my gosh, what's the plan? What do we do? It's, hey, this happened, this is what we thought about, we're feeling pretty good about it, are we missing anything? And they just, they know what they're doing. They feel confident in their parenting, they feel confident where they're going, or even having a team be able to call and say, you know, I think I messed up this way. I don't really want to talk to my dad about it, or I don't really want to do this. But this is how I'm going to try to, you know, push through that because I know it's something different I need to do. It's just great to see people gaining confidence in new things and uncomfortable spaces.
Dr. Tim Thayne:So I got a question for you, Kelly. I'm thinking about that swimmer that swam across the English Channel. And that was attempted a lot of times. And I think someone you know that in a couple of cases, they were near the shore, but because it was overcast, and they really couldn't see the shore, they gave up and they quit. That that could be a little bit like what a parent is going through during this testing phase. How do they persevere? And and what what what do they need in place to help them do that without being able to know how long is this gonna last? Because that's kind of the big question. They might turn too quick. And stop too quick. What are your thoughts about that,
Kelly Olsen:particularly, because not all like, we know what sort of the average transition period is, but it's not the same for every family. And we're not in the business of forcing people to comply to certain behaviors or certain outcomes. So each team is going to be different, which means some are going to struggle longer. Some are going to get things together really fast. The the attitude of parents of the people the support system. First of all, we need to understand what are our markers of change, and sometimes it isn't, you know, he's going to be perfect and do this, etc. It's going to be hey, these arguments that we used to have, we're going to look for shorter duration for that we're going to look for those true moments of connection and then have more of those and more of those. But to be able to gauge that you need someone often like whether it's a home team, a professional or Both preferably that can give you that perspective and say, Okay, this is where you might be, look how fast you recovered from this argument or from this mistake from this backward step. And you know, last year would have taken you three weeks. This year, it took you one week, it seems like you're moving in the right direction. Just having that perspective sometimes helps. That's,
Dr. Tim Thayne:that's really important. We're talking about degrees of growth here, and that you can start to notice, and I densify, there's been a change, there's been an improvement there. So you're talking about the home team, Kelly. And that's a, that's a really, really powerful concept, but one that a lot of parents and families who've had struggling teens in their, in their situation, have kind of pulled back from the network of support, maybe out of trying to protect the good name, or you know, the reputation of their son or daughter, or maybe feeling a little bit like they might be judged themselves as parents, that they might pull a little bit away from their their support network. What would you say to them? And how do you help them go the other direction? And how does that come into play during the testing phase?
Kelly Olsen:Yeah, well, and this process is such a unique thing, how many parents really knew that wilderness programs even existed or treatment and treatment program programs even existed, before they felt they got to that point with their child? And how difficult was that you can feel very isolated, like you're the only parent on the planet that has had to make that decision or to be in that spot. And the first thing is to combat that isolation. So we have a phrase that I know you've heard, but privacy is important, Secrecy is toxic. If we get stuck in that secret keeping, we're not going to be able to move forward. Being able to change means being able to make new connections, sometimes parents very much question, how what do we share? How much do we share? How do we ask people to come into this process with us? And that's the answer to that is different for every family, you kind of want to consider, like who would be most beneficial, right? How are we going to ask them? And what if, and the what ifs are, you know, what if these friends that my kids hang out with turned out to be bad influences, and we invite them onto the home team? What if you know, Aunt Jane just continues on her negative path and thinks that all our parenting decisions have been horrible? What if? And the question of asking or the process of asking what if allows you to come up with solutions, right? You don't know always the answer of how you're going to ask someone to be on your home team, how much information you're going to share. But you can start to get there. Right? What it helps. And Jane, if she had more information about what transition looks like, if she knew more about the program, that he was coming out of that he's not, you know, being in this like lockdown place, but he's learning and he's being taught skills that are going to really help him move forward. And this is how she can support him in that.
Dr. Tim Thayne:So I'm sorry, Kelly, I was just thinking, you know, what, what we do as parents, though, is we we look for reasons to eliminate people, yeah, off the home team. Because that way, I won't have to have this uncomfortable kind of conversation where I open up to this person. When reality if we understood the power of connection, and of being a little bit more vulnerable in the situation, you might be adding somebody to the home team or bringing them into that inner circle a little bit, in a way at the right person that can do just the right thing. And is there any way we could orchestrate some of the things we've seen over time that home team members have done? I mean, we can't say okay, now you do this, and you're gonna do this and all of that. But there's something natural about what what unfolds? Once they have been included in the circle in the right, the right level of information? Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I think that's a mystery to people that if they understood the power potential of this situation, and and what normally happens, you know, our worst fears normally don't come true about adding somebody to the home team. Could you talk about that for a second?
Kelly Olsen:Yeah, I'll give you a really recent example with this family that I'm working with that I've just really enjoyed. The home team concept was very uncomfortable for them. And they kept asking me, Are you sure you want us to do this? Like is this is this really going to be okay? And what ultimately happened is they took the risk, right? And they it was a risk because you might have that person who says what are you asking me to do or this is stupid or whatever that might be something has a little bit of risk there? Is it worth it? Is it a positive risk? Absolutely. So they identified people that they wanted to have the right information that they wanted to just bring into the process, and that they wanted to share a little bit more of their human experience with just have that connection. So they invited them over, we had a home team meeting. And I had talked to the team beforehand, and everything like that, and he was comfortable with the idea. But what started to happen is everybody there started to share about a family member that they had, that went through some struggles, and how hard it was for them to talk about it. And how grateful they were when they had other people to share that burden with even if they didn't have solutions for each other. And the dad made this comment at the end, and there was a family member that he didn't invite. And he said, I wish I would have invited her the information that she might have received and just the experience the connection that could have happened, right, might have changed her perspective on some of the things that were going on in their family and with their son.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's a really interesting comment. And if I look back in time, and think about how many regrets have been around the home team, it's usually on that side. It's not it's not Oh, I regret having it may come or very rarely, is that the case. But that's an interesting observation that that that father was able to voice that to you. When when teens come home from treatment, you talked about the phases. And so they go into this honeymoon phase. And that's normally when we come in and and we'll facilitate this home team gathering. What is it about that time, that moment, where we're bringing these people together around this idea of being more open more transparent is sharing this human experience that makes it what it normally is, which is pretty powerful.
Kelly Olsen:When I know you've seen this. And it's great to experience every time where you're sharing that experience at a moment of I almost want to say gratitude, where the parents, the teen there is more of a sense of gratitude for their experience. Sometimes not right, sometimes we have families that are still really in a deep struggle. And they're trying to resolve past resentments. They're very nervous about all of these things. But when they have the chance to share what they've learned and where they've come to at that moment, that gratitude comes out. And it starts with such a positive understanding of where they want to go. People who have maybe been concerned about the teen or saw what was happening before treatment, suddenly they get to see this girl or this boy in a completely different light, and see what they've accomplished, see where they are now. And so when you then fast forward into the testing phase, they're not just identifying this person as who they were, or who they seem to be before treatment. They're seeing this person who has accomplished all of this challenge and treatment and has a new perspective and attitude. And they get to be part of that journey,
Dr. Tim Thayne:you gave me a new insight. And I'm a big fan of home teams I have been forever. But the new insight is that you don't want to miss this opportunity to redefine in the minds of their network of support those most important people of who they really are and what their true potential is. And that can be done. And most of the time is done during that honeymoon phase when they first come home. Because they see the light in their eyes, they see the countenance they see the openness. And that's higher than what they've seen in the past and vast majority of cases. And so that, that gives them this unique, like third party outsider with a real, you know, connection and a sense of what this team can do and what they want to do. And yet they're still outside, not in the day to day kind of dealing with the testing phase. And so they become a resource. Yeah, that couldn't have been there. Had they not been a part of it. And they're just some bystander out there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's really the magic. Do you want to talk to kind of wrap this up around this idea of how do you know if you've had this kind of introduction of the home team into the teens life as they're coming home? And then we're gonna go into this testing phase. What how are they how are they utilized and what a parents what can they do?
Kelly Olsen:Well, I'm going to add two things there. One is occasionally we do have families that are they struggle with a home team concept, or they've moved to a new place and they don't really feel like they have people that they can invite for a home team meeting right? That does not mean you do not To the home team, the home team, most importantly, is a concept and idea. It's it's about reaching outward instead of staying insular. And connection moves you forward disconnection just keeps you stuck. And so if there's not that feeling of we can't have this magical home team meeting, right? The question is, where do you start, and that carries through to what we want families to do after their home team meeting. It's not just about a home team meeting, it's about reaching out to the right people at the right time. Or inviting people into the process, where, hey, it's our son's first day of school, who could be influential in sending him a word of support, or, you know, we've really had a load day, and it would be great to have some outside perspective, or just to get stuck, you know, unstuck from our space, maybe we can reach out to and Jane, who now understands a little bit more of our process and say, Hey, we just need a recovery moment, could you come over and just hang out with us a little bit, we like your energy, you bring some positivity, and we're we've kind of had a negative day. And being intentional in reaching out to people, let's say you don't have a home team yet. But your child is going through a struggle, the same question should go through your mind or we'd like it to have, who else could expand my influence in this situation? Is there a coach? Is there a cousin is there a friend that I could invite to reach out to my team, or that I could reach out to just to talk through this, someone who is going to move me in the right direction, and not kind of keep me trapped in negativity. That's what we want people to be intentional and to take risks in that area. Just reach outward and find the ways that that might connect you.
Dr. Tim Thayne:We could probably talk for hours on the subject, and especially even tell really cool stories. You know, really, really amazing stories where home team members have made a difference, big or small, and sometimes a little small differences really all they need, just like a little nudge, that that really changes the outcome. And maybe we'll do another podcast and we'll just tell stories about the home team. But it's an it's an amazing thing. And I I've watched Kelly, you know, navigate this this testing phase, I've watched her with families coaching the families. One of the things we're really, really excited about is being able to find new ways to engage the home team through technology. That's going to be coming up. We'll talk about that soon. But Kelly, thank you for being on the podcast today and talking about home teams. I'm sure there's a lot of parents out there going, hmm, who's on my home team who's who could we invite, we actually have a template I just realized that we give to parents that helps them brainstorm. Yep, who could be on their home team? And, and it kind of goes down through roles? Like, can I think of anybody who could play the, I don't know, Guru role,
Kelly Olsen:right? The job guru or the, you know, applying to college?
Dr. Tim Thayne:All right. How to do an interview for a job? Yeah, who could who could do that? Imagine an outsider coming in, and doing some rehearsal with with your son or daughter around their first job interview. Now you're connecting them. It's not just getting valuable skills, but now you're creating a relationship where they've got even greater influence. So it's just, you know, sky's the limit on what can happen with teams?
Kelly Olsen:And how much cooler is it when I mean, parents, we don't ever want them to diminish their own influence. But sometimes when parents say, Oh, I heard you know, so and so was hiring or this was going on kids feel nagged. But if this other person reaches out and said, Oh, I saw that this place was hiring. And I thought of you because I thought that would be really good. They sometimes feel more responsive. Like this person thought I'd be great for this. So yeah, I'll go give it a try. Just taking risks. Sorry, I'm taking us back into
Dr. Tim Thayne:the it's hard to leave. In fact, I want to leave with one last thought and get your final thoughts on it. I think what is happening, simply, we're applying we're asking people to go reverse of maybe what they've been doing, and being more vulnerable. This was popular with us long before Brene Brown by the way. And asking them to be vulnerable, right in those situations. And what happens is when you do that, it creates human connection. And when you create a human connection, you end up creating a context for health in all kinds of its varieties. And any parent can tell you, I don't want to be the end all be all for everything for my child. Like you look at those people who are mentors, and you just are grateful for those people because they can reach your child in ways that you can't. And so I think we're tapping into something deeply human about, you know, first thing that might come to mind to a parent is, is, oh, well, I put them out. Or, you know, they're, they're busy, or they have their own challenges. But it's an honor and ends up actually igniting this response that's coming from a very authentic place, and you cannot pay for that. There's no way you can buy it. So you have to create it in terms of real connection, meaningful connection, anything you'd add to that to wrap up,
Kelly Olsen:other than just, when you think about the people in your life, when I think about the people in my life who made a difference, it was very much the small, like simple things that they did for me the extra effort they just took to make a comment or share some insight with me, or even seek my, you know, help on their home team, like how grateful I was for that risk that they took. If you think of it in those terms, you think of the people who were really influenced, influential and the things that they did. Why would you cheat yourself of that opportunity, or cheat your child of that opportunity?
Dr. Tim Thayne:Well, you've given us a lot to think about Kelly. I'm gonna go build more of a home team now. And I think a lot of other people listening will too. So thank you so much for your wisdom around this home team and the testing phase.