Dr. Tim Thayne Interviews his son Talmage. Talmage served a church service mission and found that coming home would be a harder transition than he thought. He shares his story and how he was able to start climbing out of a dark place through understanding his identity, being surrounded by loving and supportive family and friends and knowing he will fail and it's not the end.
Dr. Tim Thayne Interviews his son Talmage. Talmage served a church service mission and found that coming home would be a harder transition than he thought. He shares his story and how he was able to start climbing out of a dark place through understanding his identity, being surrounded by loving and supportive family and friends and knowing he will fail and it's not the end.
Welcome to the not by chance podcast. I'm Talmudge thin Tim thing, son and podcast manager today. My dad, dr Tim thing is actually interviewing me. He interviews me about my story about coming home from a church mission, transitioning from that very structured environment to an environment, not so structured, transitioned from order to chaos.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, I'm excited today to be able to interview my son Talmudge he has a wonderful story that I think everybody can learn from, uh, on the subject of going from a very structured situation to, to less structure and in some ways devolving into a feeling of chaos and, and maybe things weren't going well. And so I want to interview him today and I'm really excited about this because, uh, he's one of my favorite people on planet earth and yes, I am bias, but he's amazing. Um, let me extend to tell you a little bit about Talmage just to set the stage a little bit. Uh, as a, as a little baby, my wife likes to say he was such a good little baby. You just sit him in the corner and he would never cry. Never fast, never caused any problems. Uh, he was just a happy baby. And, and also as he got a little older, he was just easy all along the way. He was a little dreamy, um, kind of love to daydream about whatever he was he was thinking, but he was just just sweet, fun, nice little kid. And, uh, we've always been really, really proud of him. And, um, so I wanna just kind of set the stage for this to say, you know, first of all, Talmage thanks for being on my podcast and you're actually on my podcast every week. Yeah. I want everybody to, you recognize the voice. Talmage is my podcast manager and so he does all my intros and, and everything else and he's, he's the one that makes it happen. So it was really easy. He was going to be here anyway and it turns out he's got a lot of great things that he can share. Now. Of course, you're young adult. How old are you telling me? Can you just, yeah, I'm 24. Um, and so yeah, it's, it's been fun being like the podcast manager and everything. Just getting it going. And so, yeah, doing this interview is fun. So, and, and you know the interesting thing about the podcast and I think it'll come back into the conversation, but it really represents traction in your life. And, and so we're going to come back to that, I think in, in this, in this podcast to talk about how diving in and, and helping me with this podcast has led to some other things for you. So with, with that beginning, uh, tell me, is there anything else you'd like to tell the audience, just about your background?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, as you guys can imagine, um, growing up with a dad like I have and with a mom, like I had, um, there just, it was, I had a great childhood. Um, grew up with really good family. Uh, grew up with great friends. Um, my mom and dad say I was easy on them growing up. Uh, but honestly it was, it was easy to be easy when I grew up in the environment and I had, um, having a therapist for a dad is fun cause um, he is always like, he'd always listen, pay attention before he like jumps to any conclusions. And so that was really nice. Um, and a lot of times the times I didn't, right. Most of the time you did though. A lot of times when we were working at home, um, when you were working at home and I'd like come in and I'm like, dad, can I talk to you? He would just drop everything he added. He liked just 100% focus on me and that always meant a lot to me. Um, but yeah, so I grew up in a really great environment and my whole life I was planning on going on a church mission cause my family has gone on these church missions and they've been like talked up my entire life and they were amazing. There's something to really strive for because basically when you go on one, you serve for two years teaching people about the gospel, doing service projects, just doing stuff all day every day to try to help people.
Speaker 2:I know that this is not what a church mission is all about, but I used to tease and say it was the best, it's the best treatment program on planet earth. And for those people out there listening, uh, some of them would be parents who have had a teen or young adult in a treatment program. And the way, the way I liken those two things, the way I see them as similar is that in both cases there's a lot of structure kind of built in to your daily activities. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It was like very structured and those that was good for me cause like you said, I was, uh, as a daydreamer and like I just, my mind was everywhere all the time. And so, um, it was good for me to have that structure to like put me to work and have something I was passionate about and just focused on. Um, and actually I wanted to mention like before the mission, um, before I got out on the mission, it took me a little bit to get out on one cause you have to meet like certain standards of like, um, readiness basically to go on a mission. And I wasn't meeting a lot of those standards and so it took me a little bit to get out on one. And so when I finally did it was such a relief. Um, and, and being out on one, like I learned so much just like people in treatment programs I'm sure cause they're out in the structure like that. It's just like teaching them about themselves a lot about, uh, the world, about philosophy, about a bunch of really cool things and about different cultures and so as an easy environment to change and to improve. And so it was just like amazing. Um, and I thought that I was like, okay, well I've done this mission and it was, it was really hard. Missions aren't easy at all. Um, and so I was like, I'm ready to take on the world when I get home cause I've been doing this for two years. And so, yeah. Um, I thought I was ready, you know, the mission, um, you know, you mentioned all of these different things that, that you're learning all these dimensions in your, you're placed, you know, somewhere in the world. And in your case it was Scotland and Ireland, uh, some cases, missionaries or, or developing a language, uh, you have your own sort of Irish, Scottish combo, uh, accent. Maybe you can share that with some, with listeners in a minute. But yeah, there's the culture, there's the structure of the day. There's getting along with the companion, there's, you know, self-development all the way through this. So yeah, you'd be coming home thinking, okay, I've got this figured out. Yeah. I was coming home and being like, okay, there's not as much structure. I get to make my own plan now. Um, which I was never good at doing, but like at that point I thought I was going to be able to just do it. Uh, but yeah. Um, going back to like the mission, like Scotland and Ireland. Amazing. Um, the accident was great. The people were great, the scenery was great. Give us a line. There's, there's a line that, uh, I heard from this little old Scottish lady. Um, she, it's like an old Scottish saying, it's a[inaudible] that means it's totally different language. Yeah. It sounds so different, but that means it's a good bright moonlit night tonight, you know? And so it's just really different. But it's really fun that people were just amazing. I gained some of the best memories there. Um, the hardest memories but some of the best. And so, yeah, it was just amazing. And like I said, I was, I was
Speaker 2:ready to come home and just kill it at home. Like I wasn't planning on reverting back to any of my old bad habits. Um, maybe some bad friends or just anything like that. I was ready to get going with my life and I might, might just interject here. You know, that's how a lot of young people are feeling when they're coming out of a program, even if it's a short term program. At some level, they're like, I'm feeling different. I feel more healthy, I feel more capable. I know what I want for my future. I don't want to go back to where I was before. Um, so that's what's going on with them. Similar to what it was for you coming out of a mission. And then for the parents. I'll just reflect on that for a second, that there's, there's that feeling you've got now a young adult who's done these really difficult things for two years where you haven't really had much contact and you know, they've done a wonderful job and, uh, very parallel again to, uh, to a treatment setting where there's been a lot of work done progress. Those parents are like, what's my role now? You know, do I have a role? And the hard part for I think me and mom is that we were, um, we were trying to be hands off and yet trying to give advice. And we've done this with each one of our kids as they've come off their mission. And it seems like most of the time they don't want our advice at this point. They want to define it for themselves, as you said, I get to make my choices and, and uh, we're sitting back there going, okay, it's like moving from the front seat in the car to the back seat, having no control, but you're still in the car and you're still worried about where it's going or how it's being driven. So that, but that's uh, but him coming off as mission really was a feeling of, I think, you know, he's done amazing. Um, he's on a new track and, and he's going to be be fine. And so he didn't realize what the Rocky road ahead was going to be especially cause was an easy kid. That's right. Right, right. Um, but yeah, it, as you guys can guess, like, it didn't turn out that way. Um, the easy way and yeah, I think I was blindsided when I got home, um, going from complete structure to no structure and when my parents or siblings or people tried to give me structure, I was really resistant to it cause I felt like I was ready to spread my wings to be independent. Um, and in ways I was in ways I really needed to do that. Um, but I think basically
Speaker 1:the thing that can really sum up what I'm about to say, like with my story is I went from like total order knowing what to do, what I had to do, having a purpose in mind, having a focus to chaos and having none of that. Um, and it was, it was really hard for me because I, I had something I loved and now I didn't have that anymore. Um,
Speaker 2:I'm trying to remember. Tell me what was some of the advice we tried to give you at that point in time and how did that go over?
Speaker 1:I remember my mom set me up for some classes at, um, at college, so right when I get home I can kind of get started, get my wheels turning and everything. Um, but I did not do good in those classes. I just didn't, I dunno, I didn't go to class, didn't have my heart in it. And so that was me kind of just disregarding, um, what my parents were doing for me and helping me get set up with school. And, uh, that was one thing. I think some other things were like just getting busy, basically getting, um, getting going with my job and in a bunch of things I, I started working for you and mom right off the bat, but I wasn't doing much to earn my, earn my keep or,
Speaker 2:okay. And this was an interesting moment in time for me too because we're watching Talmudge uh, you know, really struggled with this job we'd given him, uh, he was struggling with, with schedule, you know, getting to bed on time, getting up on time, being able to come to work on time, getting the stuff done. And we just kept trying to help him more. And at one point, I remember we, we were in the car driving somewhere and you said something like, dad, do you think that we're immeshed do you remember when you asked me that question? I do actually, cause I'm sure you've heard me talk about that, that concept of being in meshed with your, your child and, and I, I stopped and I remember thinking, Hm, I never thought that I would feel that maybe I was in mashed with one of my kids because I'm aware of it and trying not to be that way. And I had to say, you know what, maybe we are, because I don't know if you want to go on and tell the story, but what happened with your job after that? I, and what was your point about the job and, and maybe the possibility that we were immeshed yeah, I felt like, um, I was living at home for a little bit. I moved out after a little bit, but I was also working with my parents. I was also trying to have a just
Speaker 1:parent son relationship with you guys. And um, I don't know. I really didn't like having you guys as my boss, uh, to be totally honest. Yeah. And I didn't like, like following orders and everything. And so I just, I don't know. I wouldn't put my heart into any of the work I did. Like you said, I would show up super late if I showed up and just a bunch of things and you guys gave me chance after chance and I just disregarded all those. And I got to the point where I just felt so bad about not providing any value that I was just like, I just need to quit. I just need to get out because I don't feel good about this. And I know I'm not helping out my mom or dad at all. And so, so you fired yourself. I hired myself
Speaker 2:and that, that was pretty interesting, you know? Um, it makes me wonder how long would have we gone if you wouldn't have maybe fired yourself and, um, but, but you, that's one of the, one of the things we could always count on, there's, there's this real thread of integrity, you know, that you try to, to ultimately make things right. That's, that's part of who you are. And so I guess we kind of counted on that and sure enough, it came through and you, you know, you fired yourself. We didn't have to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm really grateful I did. Um, even considering what happened after that, after I fired myself, I got a few jobs here and there is like knocking doors, trying to get people's signatures for uh, I don't know political stuff. I'm not sure what it was. Um, and then I did telemarketing for a while and I kept telling myself I'm going to get started with school, but I didn't. And during this time I really fell into all of my bad habits that I had before the mission. Um, and I was isolating myself from the people that loved me the most. My parents, good friends, my family and I went into like a pretty dark place, um, of like just depression, a lot of social anxiety, isolation. I didn't like myself at all. I, I luckily never, I don't think I'm clinically depressed and I don't, and I never had thoughts of suicide, which I'm so grateful for cause I have a lot of friends that have depression and have those thoughts. But I did seriously have thoughts of running away, running away from everything, running away from my family, my friends, all the responsibility to go into a brand new place where nobody knows me, so I can just start over and make my own rules again. Was
Speaker 2:that kind of what is at the core of it or was it there's some,
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 2:Other thing, other emotion making you want to run?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of the emotion was shame. I felt like I was letting down my family, um, cause they knew what I did on my mission and that I like what my hopes were for coming home. Um, and yeah, I've always like had big dreams, but I've never like made any plans for succeeding at those dreams. And so coming home and having those big dreams and then not doing anything about it and just basically failing, um, just made me feel really ashamed of who I was. I felt like I was letting everybody down in my life. And I think that was a big driving factor of that feeling of wanting to run away.
Speaker 2:You know, I think about it Talmudge I think that, you know, there, there was definitely, there was this need to break free of us in a way.
Speaker 3:Mmm.
Speaker 2:Well even though it was all well-intended, you know, everything we were trying to do to help you was well-intended. And I think a lot of parents out there listening will relate to this, that it's actually sometimes your help that becomes part of the problem. And that we had very unwittingly done that with you. Um, because you really have kind of found your own person. You're starting to really find that in its traction in your life. But I think you had to kind of hit bottom in a way. And it doesn't mean it's even easy today in, in doing, you know, moving forward in your life as it isn't for any of us. But, um, but we probably wouldn't have thought, Oh, we have a poet here. We have someone who loves philosophy. We have someone who is,
Speaker 3:uh,
Speaker 2:you know, funny, who's articulate, who likes to tell stories and memorize poems and quotes and inspire people and you have aspirations, all of that stuff. You kind of, we, we hoped to create the environment, but ultimately, you know, the jobs we kept putting on your plate didn't fit. And ultimately you had to find something that, that ignited your interest, your passion, and you had to find your own reasons to go to college and so on. Can you talk a little bit about that and, and how that journey unfolded?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, so yeah, I was working at were working as a telemarketer at the time and I was like, you know what? I want to go back to college cause I really want to gain an education, not like a degree. Um, I'm honestly not too in it for the degree. I want to just like learn. I love learning and I love learning with people. Uh, I do so much better whenever I'm around people, even if they're not working on the same thing I'm working on, I just do better. And you're a hurt animal. Yeah, totally. I need, I need people. And so, and that's like the other thing is like I need people, but I'd self isolate. That's one of my self destructive habits that I had. Um, and so that's just a kind of side note.
Speaker 2:It really, truly is. Let's just go into that just for a second. You know, I say hurt animal, but it's that we come from the farm, right? Yeah. There's, there's definitely a big part of us that stems from my rural upbringing in the farm and all of that. And, um, literally you can take, and when you're talking about a pattern that's self destructive, it would be like a horse or a pig who are definitely hurt animals. If you buy a single pig and put them in a pen, he will not do well. Um, if you're trying to fatten him up, he won't fatten up and all of that. But if you bring a buddy, they thrive in that situation. And so it'd be like you knowing you need connection, you need people, and yet for whatever reason, you would isolate away from them. Can you, can you tell us about that? That'd be like a pig saying, no, I don't want a buddy and they need one. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1:the biggest thing that made me do those like sabotaging habits, um, self destructive habits was I didn't believe I deserved better. I, I felt like I like, I don't deserve success. I don't deserve this happiness, which is, which is so dumb. But that's what I thought. Um, I wanted to, yeah, just kind of if something was going well, I would tell myself this can't last forever, so might as well quit now. Isolate yourself, uh, this isn't going to last forever. You're going to class right now. This is when I started college. You're going to class now, you're doing well. Let's, this is going to, well let's stop going to class. Um, let's show up late. Let's avoid doing the assignments and turning them in on time. And I do that so that way the wave of enthusiasm wouldn't get too high cause if it got too high it would fall and crack crush me. So might as well just take it out before I got high at all. And um, it was just, it was really bad as very faulty thinking on my part.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that you've done a lot of work to try and identify some of the faulty thinking, some of the faults, you know, ideas that that you might think of or say to yourself. Right. And what would you say to those people out there listening to kind of that journey as you start to kind of pull out of that, because that's part of the story you want to go to next. What was it that helped you begin that process of pulling yourself out of this really dark place you were in?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, so I actually ended up like having a therapist during this time and I'm actually going to a group about all of my kind of bad habits and just my inner turmoil basically. And there's one lesson we were talking about and he brings up that book, Simon Sinek book start with why and it was super cool. Like great book has really great stuff in it and he's talking about it. He's like, how many of you guys have a why of how you want to stop doing these self sabotaging habits and self destructive habits? And everybody raised their hand. Um, Oh, I want to do it for my health. I want to do it for my kids. I want to do it for my family. Um, I just want to do it for me just to feel better. And, but the thing is, is everybody there would still do those. Um, even though they had a Y, even though they had a Y. And, and I, it was so frustrating for me and he, my therapist said, I believe there's something that comes before the Y. Um, it is the who, who are you at the core? Who are you as a person? What is your drive? Like any talked about, um, fireman and firemen, they do what they do because they are firemen. They save lives. They rush into a building that's burning down to save these lives. Um, when most people would just be like, Oh man, that's crazy. But that is who they are at their core. And I started thinking about it and I realized I didn't know who I was. I didn't know my purpose. I didn't know. I felt like my life had no meaning. And so of course my wife didn't hold any substance because I didn't know who I was. Um, and, and I think the thing that really started helping me get out of it was I always had a dream. Um, ever since I was like a teenager, I loved words. I loved speaking. I loved the fact that the, I have a dream speech by Martin Luther King, changed a whole nation, um, within 15 minutes. And how it just like it, the word is, or the pen is more powerful than the sword. And so I loved that and I'd kind of express it, but I didn't want to get my hopes up too much because they'd get crushed. And my therapist kind of pressed me on it and learned some of my dreams and ambitions, but I was always too scared to really go for it. And he's like, Talmudge, I really believe you need to be able to express yourself through your words, um, share your experiences and, and not just that, but help other people as well. And, um, so I started thinking about it more. My dad had been told that he should start a podcast cause he has so many great insights as you guys know. And I was kinda thinking about it as a little hesitant, but I was like, you know what? Like maybe I could try to learn how to start a podcast and help my dad with it. Maybe I can learn how to do some of this stuff and be the podcast guy, have that be who I am. Um, and so I started just going on YouTube, learning how to do all of this and ordering the equipment, learning how to record, edit and put it up on Spotify and Apple music. And I started doing it with my dad and it was so fun. Um, I like, I took some liberties. I on the first couple episodes I was just like, I'm talented and I'm the podcast manager and I'm Tim thing son. And um, it was fun cause like when it first got out there, even though it wasn't me talking the whole time, hearing my voice at the very beginning as a podcaster was so cool. Um, and it just, I was just like, yeah, this is what I want to do. Um, and I started showing up on time to work a lot better. I started working for my mom and dad again as you guys can tell. But I started working for them again. I started showing up on time. I was putting in extra hours. I wanted to make this podcast right. And I still like have those bad days, those days where I like feel those thoughts creeping in again of like those negative, um, self-hating thoughts. But I feel like I've just been able to be on this upward climb since then. And I actually, after I started this with my dad, I, I had the really strong, just like feeling and desire that I wanted to start own podcast, um, about basically my story about coming home from a mission and helping other people tell their stories as well. And so that's been really fun for me cause I've been able to really focus on that as well. And um, it just came, my podcast just came out just last month and that is give everybody the title. It's released the podcast, cause when missionaries come home, they're released from their missions. And um, and so it's basically, um, people's stories about coming home from missions, their struggles, their advice. Um, this latest episode I interviewed my mission president and mission mom, that's his wife. Basically. They're the ones that oversee all of the missionaries, like 200 missionaries all over spread over Scotland and Ireland. And I got to interview them and hear their story about coming home and how it was tough on them as well. And I was just like, yeah, people feel this. People feel like they go from order to chaos and how to still bring order out of that chaos that they're kind of plunged into. And that has been so meaningful for me just to have that purpose in my life. Again, have that who, like who am I? And I know who I am. I'm, I'm the released podcast guy. I'm the podcast manager for the not by chance podcast. I'm, I'm a student at UVU. Um, and like I feel like I'm on my upward climb, which is a lot better than where it was. And so
Speaker 2:he is on the upward climb. I think it's, you know, if you're, if you're just listening to the podcast, you, you'll miss this. But his countenance, his smile, his, you know, his confidence, all of that is on the upward climb. And it's a joy to watch. And any parent who's seen their child or their young adult, you know, go into the troughs of the darkness and those difficult abysses that they can get into and then come out, start to come out that it is like a, a joy that's very, very hard to describe. And literally what I, what I'm taking from this Talmage is that you really had to, you know, that pivotal moment you describe. And, and of course now the therapist to me is a hero because he's helping my son, you know, be able to identify something at the core that starts to drive him. And, and so it's neat, step-by-step. You heard your voice on my podcast, you then created your own podcast. I would say that you literally found your voice in process. Um, and you're, you're continuing to evolve that and, and you know, you're, you found something that's created traction in your life and that forward momentum. Um, boy, I could talk to you all day about this because I think the next steps ahead, that there's probably all kinds of things we could unpack here. Like probably still that fear of, Oh, am I riding a wave here and is it going to crash again? And, um, how do you deal with that and, and the fact that we are going to still make mistakes and all of that. I just think that, um, the snapshot in time is definitely shown some, some key principles of pulling out. And if you could say maybe one or two or three like points that made the difference for you in terms of ideas, people, timing, whatever it was, what would you say are the, the big things that stand out to you in helping you kind of make this turn?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think some of the biggest things. Um, number one, um, it's kinda like what my, my therapist helped me realize is who I am. Uh, cause once I got the definition of who I was, then the Y came, the motivation came. The, the small habits that keep the everything going even when the motivation's not there came the ideas, the ideas. Um, just knowing who I was. Like if it's a, like someday, if it's a a father, then I know a father does this and this and this and I'll, I'll turn, turn into that if I really, um, try and do my best. The other thing is that structure of support. Um, I cannot be more blessed with my, with my family and with my friends and with just the people around me. Um, even when I was in my darkest places and I was probably, I was way more of a burden than a blessing. It wasn't fun to be around me. Um, but they loved me and they, they always believed that I could pull out of it. And just, that was huge and encouraging me. There's a quote by Abraham Lincoln, he says, I am where I am. No, he says, I'm successful today because I had a friend who believed in me and I didn't have the heart to let him down and that was huge for me because you can't always believe in yourself and I didn't and so I needed to just trust that other people saw something in me that I couldn't see. And I actually, another thing that I think is was huge for me is knowing I was going to fail knowing I was going to fail on my upward climb that yeah, the wave was going to, but it wasn't going to crash at the bottom of the ocean. It was going to crash and just keep rising. Just try to, you'll, you'll plateau sometimes, but then you'll keep rising. You'll fall just a little bit, but then you can keep rising and that was huge for me to understand that I don't have to start all over and it doesn't have to be a discouraging moment. It could be a learning moment.
Speaker 2:And I tell them each, I wonder kind of where you may have actually got that a little bit from us as we learned that same lesson as your parents. So let me just reiterate the things that we heard from talent. They're amazing and are actually key principles in being able to get traction as a young adult. And what parent's role is in that a parent's role is to never give up. You never lose, lose hope. Um, always stay constant in your love and your, your support, but you may have to change the way you do that. And I think that's what we had to learn as parents. Another thing. So, so the flip side of that is that Talmudge had a network of support that he didn't want to let down. So he kept trying. And then after a while really understanding who he was at the core. And uh, that's when his traction began. Uh, we could see it, it was visible to us to watch this happen. And we knew the podcast was, had captured his imagination and had become a part of his new identity. And, and then just in the end to understand that it's not going to be one smooth glide upward. There's going to be these small crashes along the way. And to see him as the small stuff, don't sweat that, that you're going to get back up and keep trying. And that's really the key to ultimately succeeding. Thanks for listening today. And if you have any comments, please comment below. Share some of the transitional principles that you understand that you've tried, maybe share a personal story or experience that you've gone through and what you've learned from it. Thanks again for listening today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening to this episode. It was really fun just to be on my dad's podcast as a guest. Uh, share my story, hear his insights and what his perspective was as my dad during all of this. And so I, I found it really fun and I hope you guys found it useful as well. If you did, please share it with somebody. Let people know about the not by chance podcast. We're trying to reach as many families as we can because our mission is to create intentional family living. Also, lever of you reviews do a whole world of difference in letting our content reach as many people as we can. So if you have good things to say, please let us know.