Lyle Nelson: Manage Your Panic

In this week's episode, Dr. Tim Thayne interviews Lyle Nelson. He discusses the situations anyone can get in that lead to high anxiety and even panic. He shares tricks he has personally used when in those tight situations to not only feel calm but also manage the situation well. 

Transcript

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Dr. Tim Thayne: 0:03

Hey, Lyle, thank you so much for being on how have you been? How's it gone?

Lyle Nelson: 0:08

Doing pretty good. Thanks for having me on Tim, to talk about my panic story.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 0:15

This is gonna be a fun one. Actually, I really, I think everybody's gonna like it. Not only will they learn something, but I think we're going to have a good laugh today. So

Lyle Nelson: 0:26

yeah, I think so I, you know, I think always the best lessons are the ones you learn yourself. Right? And, and how do you get through it? And so I just want to just share my story and kind of some, hopefully, some simple ways to unravel panic. And I, you know, go from misinformed to being informed about what the reality is. And so that's, that's really my focus on on today. And, you know, I appreciate you having me on today.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 0:55

Well, that sounds great. While you know, I just think back to just this past week, I felt feelings of anxiety and panic just in the past week or so. And so I think this is a universal phenomenon that we're all experiencing, and maybe even right now a little bit more because of this tall the strange things going on in our, in our climate and culture. And with COVID. And all of those things that are happening, the uncertainty, can increase anxiety and panic and things like that. So maybe the timing of this is just perfect, as well.

Lyle Nelson: 1:33

Yeah, I would say so. I feel like that is kind of a common theme this year with a lot of people. So I feel like it's, I feel most of us have experienced some sort of panic that just either comes on all of a sudden or comes on because something usually small happens, right? It's, it's, you know, it's rare that something big happens. That, that that informs us of our panic, but, you know, I always think about, like, you know, why do we have panic? Because that's kind of our survival, right? We panic to survive if a mountain lion jumps out at us. And yeah, we got to panic in those situations. But how often does a mountain lion jump out at us? Not that often. Oftentimes, we probably don't need to panic, as much as we think we do. But yet, it still happens. And just kind of my story on a good example of panicking was two years ago, and this this involves you Tim, in some ways, right? I was assigned a family and it was the day before so a little bit quicker than, than our usual turnaround on on getting families and I was excited that was excited to go and, and jump on this adventure. It was a holiday weekend, July 4 weekend. So I was thinking, maybe I'll go to my in laws for a barbecue tomorrow. And then I get a call from you got a family over here in this city. Like, Okay, sounds good, let's let's do it. Jump on board very, I was very gung ho, very enthusiastic still was the entire time flying over there. The family was also flying, to go pick up their team in Utah. And so they were, they were they it was hard to connect with them. Because when they were flying, I was available to talk to them. And then when they landed, I was flying over to to their city. And I got as much information as I could about the family. They have emailed me, you know, we did stay in contact, we, you know, everything seemed positive, exciting, also, you know, natural fear from the parents side, because they're going to pick up their kid and it wasn't necessarily planned out in advance for them. It says let's,

Dr. Tim Thayne: 3:57

yeah, let's just share this because I think this is going to go a little more broadly than just maybe our, our specific field that we so this is just set the stage a little further. So this their child had been away at treatment for quite some time. Right treatment center. Right. And and they were select, you said they had this anxiety going on that was kind of a quick turnaround for them. They're, they're worried about what's what's it going to be like when he comes home and about homeward bound on right at the end out of probably a little bit of anxiety of their own, like they realized they needed some help. And, and so they're flying back and forth to pick him up. Right?

Lyle Nelson: 4:40

Yes, exactly. During during that time that I'm flying out to to see them in their home. And so that pretty much sets the stage of complete where my panic is about to start, which I'm gonna get right into it. So the morning of I still haven't talked to the fan because they were still they were, as far as I know, they were traveling all the night before. And so I was meeting that family early that morning, at the hotels eating breakfast, I'm like, okay, you know, I haven't talked to but this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna lay out kind of a general idea of how the home visits gonna go and spend some time getting to know them first. And the family kind of knows the deal that is, this is this is, you know, we're jumping in jumping in to feet first. And, and so I was getting ready. And then I all of a sudden, because I had that moment of, okay, I'm eating breakfast and things are quiet, and things are kind of slowing down before I meet the family. That's when panic sets set in. That's, that's, that's where my thoughts started this world. And my, my thoughts well to what if they're still in Utah, and they're waiting for me at a hotel room, and I'm supposed to do the home visit and meet with him there. But I'm all the way on the other side of the country. And I'm going to show up to an empty house. Now. That was the my panic thought. And, and I took a deep breath, which helped, but it's still a little bit panic, but it helped. I texted and called him. This was early in the morning, because I was on the East Coast time for breakfast. So this must have been before this. I don't know, the sun must have just rose or something. We're at 10. And I was I'm still grateful that you answered and and you helped me kind of get through the process of Okay, so this this is what the plan was. We went over the conversations and and we compared notes. And it really turned out that, you know, what, if if, if we were supposed to meet in Utah, it would have it would have been talked about was was the consensus and that it was always meant to be at the home was was part of that conversation, even if it wasn't necessarily explicitly kind of put out there. I pulled on the thread and it turned into a panic. And it turned out well, I showed up with the family had a great home visit. And I that panic was very fleeting, but it was intense. It's very intense.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 7:23

What would you say loud? Because you're a pretty calm guy. You know, just by nature, you really handle things under pressure really, really well. But for you what, what was the level of panic one to 10? Just give us a number. You know, I

Lyle Nelson: 7:40

think I think for a few seconds it hit a 10 Yeah, we're I definitely lost my appetite. I was in the middle of eating breakfast. Like I'm not hungry anymore. I could feel it go from a one to three, it just rose hit a crescendo. And then once once you returned my call, I think I was I was at an eight in my conversation with you. I was easily at an eight I was I'm pretty sure I was probably panicked on my end. But yeah, I'm I'm typically pretty easygoing, calm, sort of, sort of person. So I think panic for me is isn't necessarily like a common thing I experienced. But when I do experience, it really does stick with me. Because when I realize, you know, everyone goes through this, everyone go gets a moment of panic, and how do you? How do I get myself out of it? Right? And what would work for other people. And so there's there's three things that I really want to jump into that I felt like worked for me, and I hope that works for you know, for other people.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 8:48

Before you hop into that, let me ask you a question because I want to, I want to talk a little bit about anxiety and Penne. And kind of how they are related. How are they different? What do you think about that? What's what's because when I, you know when I think about the families we work with, and I would say there's got it's got to be 90 plus percent of the youth that we work with and their families. Anxiety is mentioned in the initial call, they call and they want to, you know, ask about what how we might help they tell me about their their challenges the challenge to their teen. And I swear it's got to be 90 plus percent right now that they mentioned that anxiety is one of those top issues. Right, so how does that relate to this kind of sudden onset of panic? Yeah,

Lyle Nelson: 9:47

I think you know, going back to just that specific story, you know, there's there's always a little bit of anxiety of of just meeting new people in general, much less going into a home visit and I Haven't had a conversation with the, with the family, right? And so there's kind of a little bit of table setting with anxiety, that that led to the panic, right? And then there's there's manageable anxiety, and then then it gets unmanageable. And that's when it feels panicky.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 10:16

Right? I think that's a great way to put it. It's, it's sort of the far end of anxiety. Right? I like that. So it's this this anxiety in the extreme. And I think that a lot of those who struggle with anxiety would, you know, you think about you don't experience panic all that often. Do you think that some of the people that we work with some of the youth and even some of their parents, that what we call panic, might be a more common experience for them, because they're kind of residing most of the time at the top range at that high end of have anxiety?

Lyle Nelson: 10:59

Absolutely. And being at the wrong location, wrong cities is probably not a fair example. There's some of the anxiety and panic some some parents feel and a lot of ways and so there's, there's, there's definitely a lot of energy put into feeling panic and anxiety. So I have no more empathy for burnout, in terms of feeling burned out, and a lot, a lot of what our parents must feel when they feel panicked about their kid being out at night, or wherever they are about because of an old story and forms and forms of anxiety, which

Dr. Tim Thayne: 11:35

Korea, right? It's kind of interesting, what we've, how we label things, it really is interesting, because it's all part of the same family. I remember, Roxanne back back when I was a kid, I mean, I'm getting to that point where I can say I was, you know, another generation ago, maybe two, that we didn't talk about anxiety. Anxiety was not really a word that was used much what was used as things like nerves. You know, I've got nerves, nerves, I feel nervous or whatever. Right. And, and now I think, anxiety is well, well understood people are, you know, use that word to describe how they feel. And I think they might, you know, we have all kinds of anxiety disorders that have been identified social, generalized anxiety, kind of anxious about a lot of things, right. And, and if it's severe enough, that it's interfering with their life. And in some cases, we see a lot of kids that we work with that, you know, their anxieties is prominent enough and, and kind of ever present in a sense that they, they stop really participating in a lot of things that they need to like school, social and all of that. And, and so I think what you're going to share now, with everybody out here, are really great ideas for all of us. And even though you might not call it panic, you might call it anxiety, right? It really is kind of the same thing, just on the extreme end. So let's jump in now to some of those thoughts and ideas than while

Lyle Nelson: 13:28

Yeah, so the, the sort of, there's no particular order, but this is this is the order I feel like works best for myself. And so when feeling panicked or feeling really anxious, is you know, what are my boundaries? What are my boundaries are around this, and, and feeling like I was in the wrong city, made me feel like I just don't want to go anywhere I want to go home. Right? But more more protecting myself. But the reality is, is what I mean by boundaries here is what are your boundaries and moving forward now? Not not back? Right. And the first thing I did was to ask for help ask questions. And so, you know, I, you know, I reached out to Tim, he, he's he's the guy on the top of my list. And there were, you know, there are other people on Homeward Bound I would have reached out to Kelly, for example, was probably going to be second on my list. So I came up with a list of people who could I ask for help, because that's, that's the boundaries I want to set for myself in terms of how do I move forward with with whatever this is that that stuck in my mind, and how can I ask, ask for help?

Dr. Tim Thayne: 14:43

Can we go into that just a little bit more? Well, I love that, you know, because what you're saying is, is there sort of a tendency, I think when we, when we feel a lot of anxiety and nervousness is to pull out and go back and shut down, right? curl up in a ball, you know, whatever it is, right? Yeah, exactly what what I hear you saying is like there needs to be some kind of boundary where we don't retreat out away and kind of give in to that and let that collapse us. Right.

Lyle Nelson: 15:17

Right. Yeah, that's

Dr. Tim Thayne: 15:19

what's what I'm here is that boundary is to keep us from backing out of responsibility or relationship, you know, that the visualization,

Lyle Nelson: 15:29

the visual I see is is you know, what, what are the guardrails to your path going forward? And And oftentimes, it's it's asking for help, and who are those people that help help me along those guardrails, right to move forward to be those guardrails? Yeah.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 15:45

And in your case you dropped at 20%? by phoning me, right?

Lyle Nelson: 15:50

Yeah, absolutely. I went from day. Yeah, it helped just the fact that I heard another person on the other end, even if even if you didn't give me the answer. It helped. It absolutely helped.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 16:03

So you're not alone? Right? Yeah,

Lyle Nelson: 16:06

I'm not alone. I feel like the people that you that when I reached out to you, I felt like you were on my team. Right? Yeah. And there's something that this is a Brene Brown pipe in a video or a book she wrote, but she she mentioned, assume people have positive impact. Right. And that's, that's also part of that boundary setting. Setting, you know, when you're asking for help, and to know that there are people that mean, well, and so whatever that's causing you or me anxiety, or panic feeling, you know, sometimes there are, we may falsely assume the other person has bad intent, when in reality, more often than not, most people have good intent. On, on, on on helping you. Yeah, but it's up to up to yourself to express that right. Yeah, you wouldn't have never known that, that I thought felt like I was in the wrong city, unless I said something. And that's right, it's part of the boundary, right? I'm saying something, I would

Dr. Tim Thayne: 17:10

take that even one more step in that not only do they have positive intent, in most cases, when we reach out to someone, they feel honored, it's it's as if you feel you feel special, that I have the opportunity to, to maybe alleviate some, some suffering. And I think that most humans actually feel that when they're called upon to serve in whatever capacity whether it's just a listening ear, or to get a ride or to you know, whatever it might be praying, there is something about, hey, I'm trusted enough, or I was thought of as maybe a resource. And and that's one of the big fears. I think a lot of maybe one of the barriers that a lot of people have of doing this outreach. I don't want to bother them or their Zach got more important things to do. Or they just, you know, it's just going to be a hassle for them. And, and in reality, your relationship actually grows. How much have we laughed about? I mean, really, this has been so fun for us.

Lyle Nelson: 18:21

I feel like this has been a really good story for me. And, and to Yeah, absolutely laugh about it, you know? Yeah. And I think I think our relationship has gotten a bit stronger, because I reached out for show and you've, you've helped me through this. And I also reflected like, Gosh, I really was in a place that morning. And it's Yeah, I feel like yeah, it's, it's pretty funny to yeah, go over that. And that's and that's kind of the point. Right? And you reach out to someone, these people on our on your, on your team. Yeah. And, and best case scenario. It's a good good story to laugh at.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 19:08

It's shared experience now. And we have really, I mean, we tell travel stories that Homeward Bound because we we have had a few, you know, glitches in travel logistics, and things like that. And I always like that because I know Lyle can kind of sit back let us talk and then he brings out the story. It kind of is the best one yet so and we love that it turned out great in the end but but it we kind of have a good chuckle over the feeling of panic and knowing that it's served he's survived that. But but it's but it's very instructive in terms of this. This I love the boundaries. I love the idea of reaching out. What else do you think?

Lyle Nelson: 19:54

Yeah, so I mean, just to kind of cap on on the boundaries. I mean, just like what what what you So, we've been talking about, you know, the benefits of setting it is, you know, it does create a better relationship with those that you are reaching out with, and how good of a feeling if you're the person that you're been reached out to, and you've helped, right like that. There's, there's, I only see a win win out of reaching out to people that that you trust, that I trust, and they're on your team. And it also, we know, it does, it does give me a boost in my energy. You know, I went into meeting that family feeling more confident, feeling more energetic. I also feel like I've gained more respect with you. And I would hope that's the same reciprocated back in terms of being able to work through this. And so I encourage everyone to look at no boundaries and in times of panic in terms of how to move forward, not necessarily retreating, if that makes sense.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 20:57

Yeah, I've got one other real quick story I'll add to that. And this happened to to my youngest son, my, my daughter, that was our fourth child, she one summer she did these dance classes for little girls in the neighborhood. And she made a little extra money that summer. And, and so my younger son, all of a sudden thought, How do I start a little business? You know, is there anything I can teach the boys in the neighborhood and he had been doing karate. And so he decided that he wanted to hold a little karate count class for little boys, little kids, little girls, anybody that wanted to and, and so he had his mom help him create a flyer. And, and it all sounded great until it was time for him to deliver the flyer, right? That he had to go talk to people and, and ask parents where you've parked with some of your money to have your kids come, you know, take this karate class that I'm not sure I've never done it before kind of thing. So they pull up to a neighbor's home, we knew they had some little children that that might be interested. And so he was just thinking I would go hang it on their doorstep. But instead, the father was out in the yard. And he's a big guy. And, you know, my son didn't know him really very well. And, and so they pull up and he started to feel panicked. Because here's the guy, I've got to hand him this and tell him what I'm doing. Yeah. And big, big moment. And his mom, she did the best thing I can imagine. It really goes to your idea of boundaries and not retreating. And she said, So what do you feel? And she goes, he says, I'm afraid. So identified what it was right? Identify the emotion. And then she said, Okay, so what would you do if you weren't afraid? And, and he said, Well, I would, I would go give him the flyer. And she says, Okay, go do it. Yeah. And he's like,

Lyle Nelson: 23:20

him to say, I'm afraid. Yes. That's, that's exactly what it means to to identify where you're at. And that to me is like you are, you're setting your boundary with with an expressing that with his mom. Right? Right.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 23:37

And it was really great. So she just looked at her interest is like, Okay, I'm gonna act as if I'm not afraid, because I've identified it. What would you do if you're not afraid while I would continue forward? And he went and handed the flyer and he ended up having two little boys come to his class because of that, that thing. And so then now in hindsight, he's got that ever present kind of in his mind, what would I do if I wasn't afraid? Even though I'm afraid in the moment, right now, it's gripping me, but if I wasn't, what would I do? I wouldn't.

Lyle Nelson: 24:11

Just asking that question already gives pause, right? Like, you know, I'm, I'm already thinking of my 10. You know, just asking that question would bring me down a few notches. I, I truly do think like, sometimes it does take a moment, and it goes a long way. Yeah. That does lead me into the self care piece. And in this sort of example of feeling panicked and feeling highly anxious in the moment. I'm talking about self care in the moment, right. What do you what, what, what can you do to take care of yourself in that moment, and using my example, deep breaths. Lot of deep breaths. Yeah, I did go for a short walk to get movement out there. There's there's a lot of there's a lot of science behind, you know, deep breathing and breathing exercises, a, you know, a study a Stanford neurological study in 2017, they found that the neurons in your brain are linked, linked linked to breathing help with relaxation and attention, and excitement and anxiety they had they had, they were looking at two groups of two groups of mice, the mice that were doing a lot of erratic breathing and sniffing, were not mellow, surprise, surprise, the ones the ones that were that we're doing a bit more deep breathing, regular, even pace breathing, we're less startled by things. And so there's there is science behind just the act of breathing. And that's, that's something that's readily available no matter where you're at, whether you're in an airplane, whether you're in the bus or on the road, or at home, or in another person's house, say, I do think a big part of self care in the moment is, is those sorts of deep breathing. And so that helped me a lot. I did you call deep breathing? Yeah. And then afterwards, it went a long way.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 26:19

So it wasn't gasping. It was, it was deeper. It was it was true. Wasn't hyperventilating, hyperventilating. And I liked the way you describe that with the mice. It's like, okay, when with us? It's kind of this intentional, slow, deep breathing, right? Is that the kind of breathing where we have to put our mind on it? It's just whatever breathing is coming, we're actually intentionally controlling our breath. Right?

Lyle Nelson: 26:48

Correct. Yeah. And that's, I think that's, it's an easy one to not overlook, because we breathe all the time. Yeah, yeah, it's not something we have to think about in terms of breathing. Like, I haven't thought about it until now. So it's, it's something to, to find a way to not just that deep breaths, but regular breaths. And there's a lot of apps out there that are that help with deep breathing, and there's even YouTube videos about it. So I think there's a wealth of sort of resources just on your phone, that can help breathing. So I do encourage people to do that. If you know other ways to help that, you know, going on a walk can kind of get you do the regular breathing. If if apps don't work or sitting in place, don't work, you know, go for a walk, that's, that's my go to, that's my go to when I feel an addict or feel higher, anxious anxiety level than normal, I'll take it take a 20 minute walk wherever, whatever works. I guess my question to you, Tim, what do you what do you do? What do you do for your 20 minutes, if you got 20 minutes, you're feeling stressed? Or,

Dr. Tim Thayne: 27:58

you know, one of the things I do is I do try and and get an alternate reality, somehow, whether that be by myself or or whether it be talking to someone? Because I do think that's probably the one of the real go twos I have because I realize, you know, I'll eventually catch myself and realize that I have bought into my emotions, so much that I think that's predicting my future, instead of seeing it for what it really is just some chemicals firing, and me maybe having some automatic thoughts that are not really true, right, that are fueling the emotion. You know, it's it's thinking the worst. And then if I can catch myself, or had someone else catching me to say, you know, where's this taking you? What, what is this line of thinking? where's that going? Or even where what those thoughts are? That's priming the pump for all this anxiety?

Lyle Nelson: 29:03

Yeah. And just to kind of add to what you're saying, there's, there's something about like, when, when you have anxious thoughts when you put it out there, even even even if it's to someone who isn't necessarily giving you advice when you put it out there in the open in the real world. It looks and feels different. Yeah, right. It does. And yeah, I agree. I think sometimes it is, you know, part of myself care was talking to you that day, um, it would have been with Kelly or, you know, yeah, it would have been with my wife too, right. Like, I've been with a list of people and just talking it out does

Dr. Tim Thayne: 29:45

sort of help. Well, was it you that said, name it to tame it at our advanced I can't remember but I think that's the that's basically what we're talking about here. If you put it out there and you name it and you identify what it is It starts to lose its grip on you.

Lyle Nelson: 30:03

Right? Well, going back to your son, if we're gonna go full circle on here, you named it right? He says, I'm scared. Yeah, he absolutely named it in the most simplest and precise way you can as possible like, you know, I'm scared. And that's, I think that it loses its meaning a little bit, right? When you do put it out there. And I yeah, I agree 100% that sometimes it is just talking it out. Then you can do all three, do deep breathing, talk it out and walk pocket.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 30:36

That's right. Another thing I do, and this is just happened recently, we we picked up a couple of we adopted a couple of Mustangs and so I'm trying to learn how to actually train them. And that is my best stress reliever, I'll go out there and, and because they're so sensitive, they react to my emotions so quickly. I and somehow, for some reason I get with them, I can completely let go of what else is going on, I think it's almost like being very intentional in your breathing. It's like nothing else is really on your mind. And that's, that's a way for me to sort of completely cut off the anxiety and everything for a time that I can come back at it in a different frame.

Lyle Nelson: 31:24

Yeah, yeah, you were, you're getting into my my third point a little bit, there's a lot of overlap between the three things I'm going to bring up and, and I feel like it's that. It all, it all connects it all, it all makes sense. And that's that's gratitude, right kind of that mindfulness piece that you're you're talking about him in terms of like being with your horses, and being in the moment. And there's a little bit of gratitude, and that I think, I think that's the third piece if I haven't spelled that out, gratitude. So the best part about gratitude in there's different ways of doing this. Journaling is a common way to do that. Meditation and prayer is another way of doing gratitude. expressing that to others. Like, Tim, thank you for answering like that, you know, my call that day. That's, that's gratitude.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 32:21

Right?

Lyle Nelson: 32:22

Just the act of thinking of gratitude is gratitude. And a lot of people think you actually have to do something. While yes, that's probably a good thing to do just the act of thinking, I should have a bit more gratitude, or how can I have gratitude is you're already practicing gratitude. You already you got your foot in the door you're doing and already the there is there is science, behind gratitude. The UCLA is mindfulness awareness Research Center, they say that it literally changes the molecular structure of your brain, it creates, it creates more resiliency. And I think this, this is the I don't know how you call it like, it seals, its seals what you've learned in that moment, to carry over for the next time, right? It creates that resiliency, when when you when you practice gratitude over, over whatever obstacle you've you've overcome, it helps you deal with the next thing that comes down the line. I know if I ever get into a similar situation than traveling, I'm gonna feel a lot more resilient based on my experience. And no traveling to the east coast and the families in Utah and they're traveling to, I have a bit more resilience because I've been through it, and I have a lot of gratitude towards that. And so that's, that's, that's pretty much the the third deal on the whole thing is

Dr. Tim Thayne: 33:58

and I love that, that's something that we can, we can do with a little bit of discipline, in our minds to stop kind of been swirling in that anxiety and shifting to something that is healing is really kind of another way to put it. Gratitude is a healing kind of experience that it really goes counter to, to the feeling of being anxious. So I I love it. Lyle, this is this is something we all need. There's not a single person I know that that don't experience panic at times and and anxiety maybe quite often in their lives. And, and so I know I for one I'm now more aware again, just having this conversation with you. I think I'm going to be much more intentional, at least over the next week, maybe longer. And we'll practice some of these things you know everything from the reaching out the bound Trees, self care, the gratitude, all of those things if and I think that sometimes doing many of these things together, there's synergy in in and multiple positive things that we could do that we might want to do more than one of these things, maybe all three things in these categories, we got to pull out and try. So I appreciate so much your your thoughts on this subject, Lyle, and? And is there anything else you want to leave everybody with as we as we sign off today?

Lyle Nelson: 35:36

No, I think I think a lot of this you know, anytime you feel panicked anytime you feel really anxious, I've always believed those are opportunities to grow. Right. Those are those are, those are opportunities, not obstacles and and to get through them. You know, how much? How much have you've grown yourself? How much have I grown? You know, just based on that that one experience? No, I did grow a little bit. And so there's there's all going to be a lot of opportunities out there as well. I'll leave it at that.

Dr. Tim Thayne: 36:11

That's awesome. Well, I'll thanks again. We sure appreciate your time today and your wisdom, your experiences. And hopefully we'll get back get you back on the show again sometime soon. With another topic that you can share with us. Thanks for having me, Tim. You betcha. Take care