In this week's episode, Dr. Tim Thayne discusses the importance of accountability. Many times we believe that a teenager runs away from accountability. But, in reality, they actually crave that accountability that parents working together can provide.
In this week's episode, Dr. Tim Thayne discusses the importance of accountability. Many times we believe that a teenager runs away from accountability. But, in reality, they actually crave that accountability that parents working together can provide.
It's painful to change a family culture from one of accommodation to accountability, but it's essential. Most homes today have a lack of accountability but a whole lot of accommodation, and it's not working.
Talmage Thayne:Welcome to the not by chance Podcast. I'm Talmage, Dr. Tim, Thayne son and podcast manager. Today, Dr. Thayne is talking about your focus and your energy while parenting also not getting too attached to that immediate outcome. When dealing with consequences or accountability with that team. We're excited to get this episode out to you and we hope you enjoy it.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Hi, everybody, this is Tim Thayne with the not by chance podcast. Thank you for joining me today, I wanted to talk about a phenomenon that I'm seeing happen a lot that many of the families or the parents I'm talking to, right now, this exists and and there's several elements to what I'm gonna describe to you. Number one, I see the hierarchy being flipped upside down, basically, where the adolescent is kind of on top of the hierarchy. And the parents are somewhere down below. And in some cases at the very bottom. That's one feature of what I'm going to talk about today. And another one is that there is a culture of accommodation instead of a culture of accountability. And those two things kind of tend to go together, when the culture is in the family is such that it favors accommodating. And not accountability. Much of the time we see situations where the teen has, through emotion through threats through just disconnecting from the parents, they've been able to flip the hierarchy upside down. And of course, that's not good for them. But it is it is a scenario that that many teams really love because they they can kind of control what kind of accountability they have through through being in charge. So let me go into a little story here, I want to tell you about, you know, just one of several different stories just in the last week that that have come to me through, you know, as people have called in, at Homeward Bound wanting to get some support. Well, just a couple of days ago, I had parents call me their, their 19 year old son had received some treatment in the past for some drug use drug use, and school challenges and things like that. And he had been away for about a year and he was home. And he'd been home for a few months, and they'd receive some support some therapy and support from other professionals. But at this point in time, you know, four or five months later, they really were back to square one, they hadn't been able to manage the transition all that well. And ultimately, the gains made in treatment were pretty much gone. And so they were calling, wondering, not really knowing what to do, but just wondering if this was a situation we might build help them with. And I just had them start to tell the story and kind of what's happened in the last few months since he was home. And in a very short amount of time. The old pattern they had before reemerged again. And that pattern was that whenever they talk to their son about things he was doing well, he would listen to them and their relationship was good. But just as soon as they switched into kind of a correction mode, he would turn them out at the very least. But more likely there would be you know, conflict and, and major resistance and he'd kind of pitted the parents against each other because he'd favor the one that was was maybe more accommodating. And he would kind of punish the other one that was not accommodating. And he'd make it very, very clear who was who was in his good graces at that time. And so they're really hesitant, very hesitant to ever hold him accountable to what what It's going on. And of course, he's struggling in lots of areas of his life right now. So I pointed out, I said, you know, it doesn't seem like he really is. And I think I said this wrong, actually, I said something like, doesn't seem like he really wants accountability. When I actually believe deep down, most people really want accountability, because it helps them feel good, when they actually are accountable to themselves or to other people, or to some responsibility that they have. So I believe that but I said, I said it wrong. And they said, you know, maybe he just doesn't want to be accountable. And doesn't like people holding him accountable. And, and the mother said, you know, that's not true, really, because back in his treatment program, he often would reflect back in time and think about the therapist he had, that he really liked. And that this therapist also would often hold him accountable. And, and he would, after being home, he would record reflect back and talk about how good that was, and how he appreciated that in that relationship. And the difference here was, when I pointed out to them, I said, you know, here's, here's the difference. And I want to get into in a second, I'm gonna talk a little bit about outpatient therapy, and I've talked about this in podcasts in the past. But how outpatient therapy with adolescents a lot of times doesn't work. And I'll give you another reason why it doesn't today. And in some cases, obviously, it does work. But all too often it doesn't. And in in this case, if you think about it, so the boys in a residential treatment program, they've got pretty consistent, you might say, parenting going on in the program. And in other words, there's no one for him to go to and get a different answer. So he, he doesn't do something he's supposed to do, you know, one staff member, if it's a good program is going to, you know, hold him accountable for that. And, and in some form or fashion, hold him accountable. Good programs, you can't just kind of staff shop and say, Okay, since you don't give me the answer I want, I'm gonna go shop over here and get a different answer from a different staff member. And they may try that. But if if it's a good solid program, they're gonna get a consistent answer, from no response from all the staff members. And so there was no really no place for him to go. Now. Remember that in treatment programs, the the therapists have a lot of leverage it's built in. And that's what's very different about working with teens and families afterwards, there's, there's not that leverage. But back to his treatment program. You know, the therapist could confront him in a session, could maybe bring up something that he had done that needed to be corrected, or fixed, giving him some feedback, he might get mad at the therapist, but he will show up again to the next session, that's just the nature of residential treatment, they can't really get away with it for very long, because they're kind of there until they make progress. So that's the positive side of why sometimes you need to have a teen in a therapeutic setting like that. But it's also a downside, because they, they're learning all of this inside a pretty tight container. And it's sometimes difficult to transfer that out into the real world, what they're trying to do really is they're trying to get them to start to think in causal causal terms, you know, the, the, the outcomes, if I do X, I'm gonna get y. If I do a, I'm gonna get B. And the more consistent a setting is in terms of that causal linkage between some behavior and what the outcome will be, the better that is. What we we tried to do that at home as well. The problem for a lot of us, I think, in the society that we live in today, as we look at, we look at parenting, and of course, we're, we've I think the pendulum has swung from a very authoritative sort of parenting style of the past that was cultural, where it was mind me and do what I say and it's and why and the kid says why and the parent says, Because I said, so there's no real You know, reasoning behind it, per se. And we've swung all the way over to a permissive society when it comes to parenting. And so instead of holding those boundaries, or them becoming very in, let's say, inconsistent, it starts to feel arbitrary to the adolescent or to the young adult. So it's yes, their blank brain is developing. And so sometimes we feel like we can't hold them accountable. But that's the very reason why we have to, because their brain is trying to figure out what is the causal link between my actions and the outcome. And if we're not consistent, then we're teaching them that these outcomes are arbitrary, or the consequences are arbitrary. It might just be someone's whim that a consequent quince comes or doesn't come. So there's no causal link between behavior and what they do. And what they get out of that. Back to the back to the treatment program. You know, there he was, in a setting where the causal link was getting clearer and clearer, he started to feel like he could be a master a little bit to some extent of the outcome, because he knew that there would be a consistent outcome. It was also aided because he couldn't leave the program. And so he could be mad at the therapist for two weeks. But by week three, he's back to therapy again, and, and he can't, he can't avoid it. So let's flashback to home now. So this young man doesn't get the same response from both parents. And they kind of switch off back and forth, where one will be the one to try and correct and teach for a while, then he'll punish them. And then the other one is kind of the go to parent for a while. And then they'll switch roles where the one will step up and try and parent in some ways, and then they're the one on the outs at this point. So they'd learned really quickly that, hey, we don't give feedback. We don't hold him accountable for that, even though he looks back on his treatment program with fondness because someone there held him accountable. So I believe this is the statement, I guess. I believe that deep down, teens are not going to choose accountability on their own, but it's what they actually crave at some level, because they'll notice that they're growing in the process. I'm gonna tell you another really quick story. I was a Scoutmaster of a scout troop. And I had a boy that just got into the scout troop, he was the youngest one there. And we went to Goblin Valley in Utah, it's in a really cool National Park with these really unique, rock shaped different kinds of goblin shaped rock formations. And there were great places to climb and, and, and all of that, so we camped out one night. The next day, of course, we wanted to have our campsite cleaned up, before we went out and and had some fun on the rocks. And I noticed that he had not followed the rules of where to go to the bathroom. And in so I had to have him actually clean up the situation. And, you know, he's brand new, new, and I'm trying to build a relationship with them, I want him to know I care about him at the same time I'm trying to help him learn to to be responsible and accountable. And so he did, he had to take care of that he was a little embarrassed. I tried to make him feel better, hey, this happens. You know, we we were just you're just learning how to camp. So don't worry too, too much about it. And so this whole day, it was kind of this experience of trying to build a relationship while exercising authority. So this, this takes us back. Let's look at the real quick the three styles of parenting. There's, well, there's really four. The first one is authoritarian. And these parents are strict and they have clear boundaries and standards for behavior for their kids, but they're also loving, warm and nurturing. That's what they're trying to find that balance. Authoritative. On the other hand, these are parents who are strict, but they demand blind obedience from the kids. And this these are the ones that say because I said so that's why and then there's the permissive parent. These are parents that offer A lot of autonomy and autonomy for their children and their warmth and their loving and nurturing and they really favor that over expectation setting. And then of course, we have a fourth category, which is where parents are just neglectful. They're hands off, they don't get involved. They don't teach they don't nurture either one. So, here I was back out as a Scoutmaster in a way, anytime you're dealing with adolescents, whether you're teaching whether you're a parent, whether you're a Scoutmaster, whatever it is, you're, you're sort of in a role of authority. And you're trying to teach and help them learn and grow. And so I was, I was trying to find this balance with this young man. The next big test came when we were starting to climb into some of the rocks and I noticed the all the boys were, were challenging themselves and you know, climbing up there into these rocks a little bit. And I wanted to get a picture. But I also noticed that this young boy that just come into the troop, he was not pushing himself at all, he had hardly get a couple of feet off the ground, actually, before he'd start to get scared, and freeze up. And I had to sit and think how far do I push this young man, because if I don't push him at all, or in a sense, hold him accountable. And I know that's loosely puts not really what was going on, but expect something of him more than what he felt like he could do. At the end of the day, I think he's going to feel like lower salt, sense of self self worth or self esteem, I think he would have felt not so good. And so I knew I needed to push him a little bit. And so I did, and I kind of played this by ear, and I tried to get him to, to climb up this rock formation. And then we could have a group picture. And he got about halfway up and he froze up and he started big, big tears started coming down. I said, Hey, I'm gonna climb up behind you. So if you fall, you know, I'm right here. But I need you to keep going, you know, push yourself. And to his credit, he pushed himself through the tears, he is spite of his fears. We got him up, you know, probably eight feet off the ground. And we're able to get this group picture. I noticed throughout the day, though, we kept climbing and doing things. And as long as I was kind of right behind him, he would keep pushing himself. And by the end of the day, he was pretty much where most of the other boys were. And it was an amazing accomplishment for him. And, and I liken that to this, you know, a moment in time where that right balance was met. I really felt great about it. Because it was, it was like, you know, I had belief in Him, He knew that I had expectations of him, he knew that I expected him to have fun. He knew that. And by the end of the day, his belief in himself had skyrocketed. What's really cool about this the next year, we did a high ropes course. Now this is boy terrified of heights the year before. And he was the very first one to climb up and do this really, really high zipline. And it was just a, an example of him breaking through. So I guess what I wanted to say, just to kind of close this out, is that if if we have created a culture that is more about accommodation, and a lot of the families we work with, by the way, have children that needed some accommodation. And but that is such a slippery slope. And you have to be very, very careful of that. If your culture is more about accommodation, and accommodating them possibly at this point so that they don't melt down or they don't become depressed or that they don't put holes in the wall, or whatever it is. We have to turn that around to one where it's more about accountability. And here I want to leave you with something that I think is probably one of the best pieces of advice I could give you. So as a parent, I want you to think about the principle of giving high attention to the relationship that you you're fostering with your child but also to the parenting principles, true principles that actually work skills of communication, and basically your printed parenting role. So give high attention to that. But give low attention or attachment to the immediate outcome that you might get. If you're too worried about the immediate outcome, you're going to be pushed around, let's say, by the emotions of the moment from yourself or from your child, your teen, instead of giving your attention and your effort towards your role as a parent, if you do your part well, and you let the results happen, whatever they are, then in the end, paradoxically, you're actually going to get the very best results out of that method, then if you were trying to control the outcome, I'd like to give you a quick example of this, just to highlight this one more time. Let's say that you set up an expectation for your team that they needed to get out of bed on their own and get ready for school. And that this had been a big problem. And so ultimately, you'd had a conversation and decided, as CO parents that you were going to, to set this expectation and provide a consequence, if this didn't happen. And by the way, these days consequences in our society almost seemed like it's a bad word. And I think that's completely, you know, misguided to think that way. Because there are consequences, whether we bring, whether we identify consequences and give them to our children, or whether it's later on in life, life gives them consequences, consequences are real. So teaching them the causal link between their behavior and consequences is huge. So back to the the example. Let's say you create a consequence that they, if they decide sleep in and skip school and not get ready, that they don't have the use of their cell phone for the day. And that's been determined. If it's been a pattern, most likely, you're going to have to deal with actually giving out that consequence. Expected. Don't be surprised when the next day they sleep in, you know, the child sleeps in, and you have to go ahead and deliver the consequence. And so here's what I'd say, instead of focusing on forcing them to get to school, because that will get you to do things that that you'll regret later on. Or, or worrying about the relationship too much. Simply manage your emotions, follow through with the expectation with the consequence. And you might have to say, I'm sorry, I understand, you're not going to be happy about this. But as we talked about earlier, if you didn't make it to school, you would lose your phone for the day. Follow through with that, and do it right away. So that you can get on the road to developing a culture of accountability, along with the love and other things that you have. And I can tell you, if you do that without emotion, you know, take the phone walk out, or you have to shut off the phone, if they follow you around and try to try to you know, either threaten or do anything else, just let them know that they will lose that privilege. And you've begun to especially if the two of you are on the same page, you've begun to create the situation where there's really, it comes down to them making these choices, and then choosing what the what the outcome will be the result will be you need to let go of the outcome, let go of the immediate result. And focus on the principle of accountability. If you do that, maintain your emotions. You're going to get better outcomes over time. And that's what we're looking to into the future not the immediate outcome. So I guess in short to end up, let me just just finalize this by saying, you know, look at your culture, identify whether the culture you have right now is one that is helping them develop resilience and strengths and being able to make connections to causal connections to their behavior and outcomes, and then make deliberate decisions as parents to follow those true principles. and allow that to help your young adult or your your adolescent to really grow. I hope this has been helpful to you today. If it if it has been please subscribe to my podcast, love to have you be notified each time that we put out a new podcast. And you can go see us more about us at homeward bound.com or not by chance.com to the websites that we have, in the very near future, we're going to have another website, I'll give you a little hint. It's going to be about early intervention, and it's called home coached. And so we're going to have a video series of that will help parents potentially avoid the need for out of home placement. So that's the goal and we hope within the next couple months that will be a reality. So look for that. And until we talk again, I hope you have a great weekend or restart that over until we talk again all the best to you and your family as you apply some of these principles we've talked about today.