In this week's Podcast, Dr. Thayne interviews Dr. Brooke Hersch as she shares how we can all learn from our fear and anxiety. No matter our age, it will actually highlight opportunities for growth and/or change.
In this week's Podcast, Dr. Thayne interviews Dr. Brooke Hersch as she shares how we can all learn from our fear and anxiety. No matter our age, it will actually highlight opportunities for growth and/or change.
Well welcome everybody. So glad to have you on the podcast today. And I'm especially thankful that I have Brooke Hirsch here. She is a professional. She's a therapist. She's worked for Homeward Bound for a number of years, I guess two years now. Is that right?
Brooke Hersch:Going couple years approaching two years? Yeah.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yes. So she's been one of our coaches, she's got a private practice as well. And she is a fantastic team member. We love having her on our clinical meetings. And as a result of her knowledge, we, we, we twisted her arm this last year and said, We want you to present something at our yearly advance for all of our team members. And she did it and we loved it so much. We felt like we wanted to do a podcast on this on the topic. So that's why we're here today to interview Brooke and glean as much as we can from her around this topic that she presented on. And Brooke, I'd like you to take just a minute if you would and share a little bit more color about your life who you are. And and and then introduce us to this topic today. Would you do that?
Brooke Hersch:Sure. I will do my best. So I'm Brooke Hirsch. I live in Austin, Texas. Born and raised in Texas, other than a three year stint in New York. I as as Ted said, I am a licensed psychologist. I work with children and families, teens young adults. And came to that work from my early days as a camp counselor. So early on, I kind of felt a connection with supporting young people on their journey. So went on to pursue an undergraduate degree in psychology at the University of Texas took a little break, I worked for Big Brothers Big Sisters, did some other work and nonprofit went to graduate school back at the University of Texas. Got my degree PhD in School Psychology and our educational psychology program, fantastic child clinical program with a concentration on children and excuse me family systems work did internship in New York at West Fisher Jewish community services, a community mental health clinic that does amazing work in Westchester County. And also then followed that with a two year postdoc at New York Presbyterian Hospital where I was intensively trained in dialectical behavior therapy. So I feel I bring all of those different experiences to my work, heavily influenced by positive psychology and strength, space work seeing people's as, as a as on on independent and unique journeys, and all of the varied experiences that people have contribute to who they are, and love the opportunity to partner with young people and with families on that journey. So help help cross paths with homeward bound. Talk to the great folks there, it was kind of a message from the universe that our paths are meant to cross on this journey and so glad that it did.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Well, it has been fantastic. And so Brooke, tell us about the topic today, get us into the the something that I believe all of us probably experience maybe on a daily basis to to some extent, emotions, and that sometimes can lie to us and, and what the what I love about your topic and the title of it, it kind of flips it on its head a little bit. So with that, what, what are we going to be talking about today?
Brooke Hersch:Yes, so, um, in my work, and in my work with young people, oftentimes would encounter kind of similar themes, where there was, you know, fear about engaging in new experiences, meeting new people. And this is a theme that consistently presented and would find that a lot of our work, you know, written in cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure work would be about challenging that apprehension and stepping in to feared situations. The research shows that that's how we reduce anxiety and by doing the things and teaching ourselves so as I kind of dug into this topic, further around, as I was exploring this further, happened upon just in regular life, a video by Rabbi Dr. Abraham torski. And he teaches he gives a teaching about an article that he read about how lobsters grow Oh, and she'll give me give me the bandwidth to share this story with with you guys. It's I think it's great. And it's really guided my work in a lot of ways. So, the lobster, you know, is this mushing animal with its hardshell. Right? And so the baby lobster has this baby body in this baby hard shell. And how does that lobster grow? The mushy body gets bigger, and that shell becomes confining. Too tight for that lobster. uncomfortable, that discomfort cues the lobster then to go under ish under a rock, find a safe place, protected from predators cast off that shell become vulnerable with that exposed mushy body. do its thing to grow up its new shell, and then go about its merry way. Does this little lobster life? What happens again? That shell becomes too confining, restrictive, uncomfortable. What does he do again, goes under the rock protects itself cast off the new show goes a new show and goes about its business and and this happens over and over in the course of lobsters life. Well, what is the catalyst to go under that rock and grow discomfort? Because the old shell becomes too confining sorry, young people to ourselves as grownups, too. We hit these these marks were like eight. Do I? Do I not? Do I say yes? Do I say no? I'm not sure. I'm scared. Right? And so in the spirit of thinking about these ideas, how do we how we use your how we come to understand that apprehension is so crucial to our growth. And I have to give my husband Brian Thompson and not because this phrase was actually coined by him use your fears fuel. In talking about this concept together. copywriter husband coined this phrase. And so I have to give credit where credit is due here. And so we aha moment on how to kind of kind of synthesize this idea. So if we use fear productively, it can actually fuel growth.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's amazing. I love the metaphor of how we can we can look at ourselves as lobsters here. And the reality is, is we never really arrive at a point that we're not put in uncomfortable situations that require us to grow. It's really obvious in in a child's life, and adolescence, especially. But it really never stops. And because there's something I believe, inside each one of us that wants to continue to expand, to learn, to achieve, to grow ourselves. And so there's that tension, I think, between the apprehension of needing what that's going to require the uncomfortableness of it. And and that internal desire to take another step. So that's pretty interesting. And we're putting that that position throughout life. Absolutely. All right, Brooke, so how do we use the fear that we encounter the tension that we feel in our lives to grow?
Brooke Hersch:Up? So I think the first step is to be aware, to be aware, that is something is going on internally, that I'm having an experience. And to pause, to not dive in, not run away, not into anything, just pause, observe and describe as my DBT friends would say, to recognize that I am having an experience internally, maybe in my body and the somatic experience, maybe in my cognitive experience, and thoughts are coming in. And to name those to name the thoughts and feelings as they are coming in. Dan Siegel would say name it to tame it. Rather than being in it be on it. I notice I'm having some discomfort. I'm my I'm having butterflies in my tummy. I'm having tightness in my chest. I noticed that I have this whoosh of adrenaline coming over me in this moment. I noticed I had the urge to run away and say no to the thing and not do this thing. To recognize that I'm having an experience is the first step and then to accept it, to have a willingness to say that this is not necessarily bad, good, indifferent. It just is and to have kind of a willing to invite curiosity into that moment. What is this telling me? Then we can question ourselves? Am I really in danger? Is there really a tiger behind me? Or is my body reacting? Like so? I'm not really about to jump up off a cliff. I am about to challenge myself to say yes to Tim Thayne to do a podcast. Yeah, right. Am I really in danger? Or am I fearful? Because I've never had this experience before? Right? And so guess what, our bodies are cued. We are primed? Evolutionarily speaking, we are primed to go into that fear response, the amygdala gets triggered. We have this this this flood, our vagus nerve reacts, we have an experience somatically to protect ourselves. That's kind of ingrained. And if we just go with that, as the communicator, we're going to forget that no way. I don't want to be uncomfortable. Right. But if we pause, and we have some awareness about this thing in the moment, then
Dr. Tim Thayne:I'm sorry. Keep going? Yeah.
Brooke Hersch:No, in that moment, pair of with that, that next step is to know how the brain operates, the brain needs time to process new inputs. So Tim,
Dr. Tim Thayne:that's Yeah, so I want to get to that how the brain works, because that is incredibly important and helpful to, to us to understand what's going on in the brain. Before we go there. I want to just, you know, I knew we were going to have this conversation, I started thinking a little bit about fear. And this this fear response, the the amygdala, that the automatic sort of flight, you know, fight response that can happen. And, and that it's not necessarily the good news is, with this ability to pause, and that I think that takes practice and awareness, the ability to pause that you're talking about there allows us to realize that it's not necessarily this emotion is not necessarily a signal to run, stop, shut down or anything else. But it actually might be a signal, just to gather our resources, you know, because we're heading into some uncharted territory, right. And we may need a home team support, we might need more information, we might need to get more laser focused, in order to achieve what we want to, we may need to, to really use a lot of skills that we've picked up along the way to take this next step. And so I think if we could switch that, from a natural fear response through this pause method you're talking about to a, oh, this is really a moment where there's an opportunity in front of me, that that may require a little more focus and energy. But it's, it's exciting. And you know, the, you take the fear out, you know, think about fear and anxiety, they kind of are in the same family a little bit, you know, we're trying to grow it's kind of exciting. And it's fearful, same time. And if we could kind of sift out the fear a little bit through an analyzing it and understanding it, then I think we're left with with energy to to move forward. So I'm excited to to kind of take the step and learn a little bit more about the brain. And have you talked about how that works.
Brooke Hersch:So here we are, and we have encountered a novel situation. Our brain does not yet perhaps have a pathway for that yet. Our brain does not know what to do with that challenge. My brain does not know what to do at a podcast yet, right yet, that growth mindset, we're super key here. So we understand that my brain is reacting with a Biddle stop sign, because it hasn't had a chance to figure it out yet figure out its path through and so to go for the known our brain loves familiarity love sustains all Kush comfort zone, do its routines, right? We love cognitive shortcuts we love just, you know, you get from point A to point B without thinking we get up we brush our teeth, we get dressed in the morning without a whole lot of thought. We love things that are written our brain loves things that are written nice to some degree. Right and so we're encounter with a novel situation, something we've never done before a new skill to try with our child. Have a project at work, an opportunity that we've never had before. We don't know how that path looks just yet. In our lives, our brain literally must go from the known to the unknown in order to traverse that path. All right, everybody cue frozen to into the unknown. Yeah, two young daughters. So that has played on my house quite a lot. But literally, we have to go into the unknown. In order to accomplish a novel task, our brain needs time to make those connections, we have super highways of the brain, things that are very rehearsed that are like your six lane highways, super efficient. And then we have farm to market roads of the brain. And so we're learning a new skill, we're trying a new strategy, when we're engaged in a new situation, we literally have to build a neural pathway, right there, it's like a Farm to Market Road, it's going to be choppy, it's gonna be wonky, it's gonna be like, Hey, I don't want to go down that path. But what happens, what happens to the traffic, if you start going down that path, more and more and more and more, there's more traffic on that path, guess what some of the city's going to come and pave that road eventually. And then you know, what, we're gonna build a subdivision and a Starbucks, and you know, CVS on the corner, and then we're gonna now have a full road right there. So, same thing, if we give ourselves a chance to build a new pathway, we have, now we can become more efficient. But we have to tell ourselves that it is okay, that I don't know how to do this thing yet. And to be patient with ourself, your brain is going to be all lit up with like, deep, deep trying to create a path through this novel situation, it is in that space that we usually run if left to our own autopilot devices. Because we don't give ourselves time we we interpret that as bad stay away danger, don't do that thing. It's scary and uncomfortable, when really, we just haven't had a chance to kind of allow things to line up to trust ourselves in that space, or we've had that pause, trust ourselves in that space, to create the pathways that need to be created to do that thing that heard this or sleep on it comes from because by the next day, we kind of metabolize some of the stress. And our brain has done some of that work. And then we revisit the next day with new eyes.
Dr. Tim Thayne:I was thinking about all the adolescents that we work with, you know, and they're encountering, if you think about the face of their life, right, they're encountering one novel situation after another after another. And, and so they don't have those neural pathways worked out. Right? And how good would this be for them to understand that this is just normal, you know, that, you know, it's really, you're trying to build lots of roads at the same time. And you only have so many resources at once. And so the road building is going to, you know, the Pathways is going to take some time. And, you know, the brain takes up a huge amount of energy. And I think that's probably why adolescents one asleep all the time. Because they're, they're building neural pathways. Right. And, and if they understood that, the actual biology, you know, of what's actually happening there, you know, along with the emotion piece, this novel situation, never encountered it before. You know, all the sudden, life is more complex than I've ever, you know, imagined. I go from childhood where, you know, life is pretty simple, really, if you take it a bite at a time, to adolescence, and you've got everything starting to come at you from hormones to, you know, social becoming hugely important to all the information coming at you through through the internet, to change in relationships to your parents to, you know, this drive to become independent, too. You know, all of that. And then you've got mental health issues you got, you know, now you've got some anxiety for this. And so where, what can you tell them and their parents that might might help them around this concept of neural pathway development, anxiety, going through, you know, puberty going through this period of time in their life, what what kind of ideas and I guess encouragement might you give them
Brooke Hersch:Mike? What comes to mind first, is validation. A big huge, huge heaping dose of validation, both from the caregiver the parental figures to the child The unperson pit makes sense that you're having a hard time Yes, there is so much going on right now. It is okay sometimes to not do to have a big wide berth of understanding or or even pulsate attempt to understand even the process of trying to understand him at the PAM doesn't quite get it, even to I'm trying to get into your world and understand more the stresses that you're facing, is hugely impactful. I would also couple that with self validation for the both the parent to him or herself, as well as the child, the young person to themselves to say, to invite kindness. So, you know, I am having a hard time right now. I hope this will pass. Let me be kind to myself, what would I tell a friend, if they were having a hard time? When I said, Yeah, your life pretty much stinks, you know, and it's never gonna get better, and it's hopeless, you might as well just give up now, might as well just like, go get high and run away, you know, that would be so much better for you know, a young person is probably not going to tell them, their friend that thing, but they might say that to themselves. So if we can invite in the word, the caring words that we might offer someone, a friend that we care about, we might offer encouraging words like this time will pass, you've been through some hard things before it's okay to slow down and take a break, pause. There's hope down the road. things of this nature, I vacation.
Dr. Tim Thayne:You know, I'm thinking to, you know, at some point, like you said, maybe maybe, in some cases, it's important to put a few things on pause, and go ahead and build that pathway in maybe the most important area, kind of Marshal your resources into that thing. And understand that you're probably going to have to fight off some, some automatic thoughts that that go along with new development of the brain new new growth, which is, what if I fail? You know, how embarrassing is that gonna be? Or how bad will that be? Or what are other people going to think if I don't succeed, or I can't do this is too much all of these thoughts that can intrude upon this. So it's not just an emotional piece, there's a there's a cognitive piece going on here that they need to pause again, and and look at and notice. So that they can kind of rewrite that a little bit, rewrite that script, because that's probably your fear speaking, it might be old tape speaking, whatever it is. And it's it's a good time, I think to recognize that's pretty natural as well, all of us have some of those feelings and thoughts. And if we can just kind of push forward knowing that, that fear isn't a stop sign, you should stop. It's really an invitation to grow. That we're going to conquer that at some point, we're going to feel better.
Brooke Hersch:Yes. And I would, I would, I would add to this line of thinking, get curious. So if we, as an individual, are encountering a novel situation, we're having this fear response. We're getting ourselves some time and patience. And now we're ready to figure it out. And that is to get curious, what can I learn from this experience? How might I be able to grow? If I take that first step forward? I'll apply that same kind of thinking to this scenario of the parent and teen. Oftentimes, parents and teens and young people are at an impasse. They're at a tense attention moment, where both are feeling so helpless parents want to help their kid through it. The kid is stuck in this little in this trench because you know, they're trying to, for all the things, all the reasons that they're set. So if the parent goes to zero approaches with curiosity, sometimes we call that a one down stance, where the parents has helped me understand. I'm curious as to what it's like right now for you. Approaching with curiosity, what happened today? How did help me understand, you know, kiddos, so let's say kid is refusing to go to school. Of course, the urge is there. either do I lay down the law? Do I say whatever? Do you know what is my approach or what is my move will not move. It's awareness. It's to try to get what's covert and make it overt period. And so approaching with curiosity and that impasse, super fearful, to do that super brave, to cut guy that can help me understand I see that we're stuck this morning, we see things a little differently helped me understand, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? What's going on for you? In that kind of gentle, loving, open, willing tone? Sounds a lot different than what the heck is going on for you this morning.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Right, right. I know I've said this, probably a few times, I may have even shared the story on a previous podcasts. But for those who haven't heard it, I've got a story about this, that I have to give my wife a ton of credit, because she she was in the story and, and pivotal, I think character and my son's ability to process fear and, and how to kind of combat it and move forward in his life. He wanted to start a little business had been taking some karate classes. His older sister had been in dancing and had previous to this, invited a lot of little girls over to the house and train them in some dance. And they had a basically a class every week, they'd come over. And so she made a little money on the side, teaching some of the little girls in the neighborhood how to dance. So my youngest son saw this and he's like, What can I teach, you know, and make a little extra cash. And he decided he wanted to do a little karate camp. And so he had his mom kind of help him make these flyers and, and all of that, then he had to go out and do the marketing. And that's pretty scary. He had never done anything like that, you know, asking adults to send their kids to his karate camp and ask them to give him money. Pretty scary. And he got to the first house and this is a house we knew that a couple of little boys that would probably be at that age that could get something from his his skills. And as they drove up, the father was out in the in the front yard. And you know, he's a big guy and and Halston looked over there. And he looked at his mom, and he's like, I don't want to go in, you know, because he was hoping to just put it on the door and run right not facing. And so he's faced with this adult that he's got to ask, and, and Roxanne. She did something so wise at that moment that I wouldn't have thought of. But she just was patient with him. And then she said, So Halston. What would you do if you weren't afraid? He said, I would go hand him the flyer. And she just looked at him and said, Okay, do it. And I love it. Without a whole lot of thought he's like, that makes sense. If I remove fear out of the equation, of course, I'd walk right up there and hand him the flyer. And so he did it, he made him his body, get out of the car, walk up to this, this father and handed him the flyer and told him a little bit about the, the class that was coming up. And so he realized, at least at that moment, he realized that and he's got back to the car successfully. And, and he had a couple of customers out of this and all of that. And so he he has that now in his toolbox at some level, he's going to encounter this many times in his life, and I hope his mother's words will continue to kind of ring through because what it did was kind of cognitively, you know, it normalized it Yeah. You know, we have we have fear, but it doesn't stop us. You know, what would you do? If you didn't have it?
Brooke Hersch:What would you do if you weren't afraid? I love that so much. And that resonates with exactly what we try to try to do, you know, in the therapy setting and the coaching setting, in the parents setting as Roxanne beautifully did here, is sometimes we can access the action better than we can access the emotion. And so we can't wait not to be scared of nothing. We have to go do the thing, even though we're scared. And so Elizabeth Gilbert in her book, Big Magic talks all about this. It's like creative living beyond beyond fear. And she talks beautifully in this book. She's the author of Eat, Pray Love for those that have read that, that we can't wait not to be afraid we got to do the thing, even though fear is going to ride alongside as a passenger. If we're lucky, we get fear to ride back seat. But it may be in the in the passenger seat with us, we have we just try not let fear take the wheel is sometimes we can access that first step also through connection. If we see that the other the person, if Halton sees the person at that house, as just a fellow human in the world, on their respective journey alongside me, we can connect through this human experience. And that can sometimes support ourselves our little, our little harder little baby loves her heart. And taking that first step, right, this isn't just another person in the world, I talk about this a lot with my young adults and older teens that are going for job interviews, for the first time we're setting it up, and we're kind of mentally rehearsing and preparing as much as we can. But at the end of the day, like, you know, this is just a fellow human that you're having a conversation with, about a role that you feel that you might be able to play. And they are trying to fill fellow human. So if we kind of get that, that that that rigid hierarchy a little bit out of the equation and see the other person's a fellow human on the journey with you, then sometimes that can ease that first step. And in that space, also trust yourself. We kind of possibly her dip, how everything is gonna go and kind of possibly predict exactly how this conversation is going to go. But to trust myself in the moment. So Halston going up to that door, trusting himself. In that moment, I know how to have to extend my arm to hand, another person, a flyer, I know how to answer a phone call and say, Hello. How are you doing? To trust ourselves that we actually have so many more skills and resources that we might give ourselves credit for, how I can't possibly predict all the variables that might be present in a novel and a new moment, when we are at the moment, a day or a week before, but to trust herself, that we can actually handle it,
Dr. Tim Thayne:I love that Brooke, you know, I think if we start to realize their fellow human, with many of the same emotions, we have had and probably have experienced fear. So they, in other words, they have empathy for us, we can have empathy for each other. And that makes it all better. I mean, if we know that take the most scary thing we can do probably in this life, one of the top ones is public speaking, for example. And that means virtually everybody we know, is afraid of public speaking as well. This same son, by the way, spoke in front of a pretty large group of people, just last couple of days, and, and he was nervous. But you know, he never really, he never really didn't want to do it, because there was that part of him that wants to be on stage a little bit. You know, the wants to teach a concept wants to help. And, and then the fear part. And, and so, what was kind of neat about it is he didn't hesitate. When I asked him to do it, he, he accepted and prepared pretty well. And he did it. He did a good job. But I could tell because I know him well. It was incredibly scary for him to do. But I can't help but think, you know, these little building blocks of successful successfully casting off the old shell being very vulnerable. Makes it a little easier the next time to do that same process. Right?
Brooke Hersch:You bet. You bet. And so as older humans, shall we say, experience helps us. We have many more data points. And our data set of having stepped into the unknown, figured it out, gotten to the other side that our young people do. And so it makes sense, as you were saying before, that our young people who have less data points with doing this kind of thing are going to have perhaps a little bit of a stronger response. That or an avoidant response perhaps to that fear situation. I started to say less fear, but I don't think that's true. I think us grownups also have this problem about similar degree. However, we have more experience traversing that that gap that unknown
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yeah, another another tip I'd give everybody is, and we've all done this, we look at something new. And we see how maybe big it really is or how complex that situation is. Or maybe this thing we want to do how how huge it is, I remember feeling that way about my dissertation, for example. And I just wanted to kind of curl up in a ball and, you know, cry, honestly, and not Not, not do it. Right. And my brother, not a therapist, but a programmer that had done a lot of a lot of work kind of very complex, you know, projects in the software development world, I called him because I needed, I need somebody to talk to about this. And he said, You know, when I get something like this, that it's overwhelming, there's just too much, you can't imagine being able to accomplish it. He said, the first thing I do is I, I just start to break it down and into smaller and smaller and smaller pieces. And then it's you line them up. And like you said, you do that first thing. You really don't know how it's going to ultimately end up but you know, the step, the first step or two, if you can break it down. And I'd say that's one of the really important strategies. First of all, that the fear and the anxiety is actually a signal that you probably should go there in most cases. to kind of wrap and summarize this, what I'm hearing from you, is pause, assess that probably is something it's really a green light saying go and learn and grow. If it's still overwhelming, you know, be patient, but also break it down. And when I think about Halston in that car situation with his mom, I think he probably said, I'm going to open the door and walk across the lawn. He made his body do that. And and then it was like the next step and honestly didn't have his whole class figured out yet. He didn't have all the moves he's going to train these boys to do. He just, he was creating as he was going, right. So you start with the beginning step, and you start to build some momentum that direction. And before you know what you realize, oh, my goodness, I actually accomplished something I didn't think I could do. The band. And that's I guess the goal of our you know, journey together is that we can help each other through these, these moments where we could get stuck. And and often sometimes do get stuck and need, need a little help getting through it. And then and then we ultimately can can grow into what we need to.
Brooke Hersch:And that joy that's on the other side of that challenge is where it all sits and how we create a meaningful life. Gretchen Rubin and her secrets of adulthood. Writings will talk about how things that make me feel happy, happy, happy show Susie happiness doesn't always makes me feel happy. In the moment. This is talked about in positive psychology literature that like, it's not about being happy, it's actually about making meaning. And so when we have challenging experiences, things that stretch us things that force us to get a bigger shall, shall we say that push our edges that expand our edges. That's actually how we we create a meaningful and fulfilled life for ourselves. Brene Brown talks a lot about it, her podcast unlocking as Brene Brown talks about, I think first times like, we all have to traverse into first time events, experienced that vulnerability to be a rookie at something, and to harness the resources to grow that new skill. And there's joy and pride and a sense of accomplishment in that and then as a as our own little human journey. We now have that new skill within us that we can then you know bring forward further into the world.
Dr. Tim Thayne:BROOKE I I've really appreciate this today. In fact, for me, this is me It may want to want to grow, you know, just just having this conversation with you. I am a rookie in a lot of ways. And sometimes I do try to avoid that. But today, you know, based on feeling inspired, and you know, more aware, I want to grow. And I'm hoping that that's the case for the audience that hears this today, that we can each you know, find those areas in our lives where if we grow, we will experience the joy, you're talking about that fulfillment of who we are. And that we can be the catalyst possibly for that in others, we could be maybe the, the supporter to others who were going through that be interesting for us to just as a group, who listens to this today, to identify, you know, those things inside of us, those, those moments of time where we're resisting change, because it's hard. And maybe go ahead and embrace the fear, embrace the process of, of moving into it, and then help someone else do the same. You know, it's if we can do it for ourselves and help others do the same. To me, that's a fulfilling life. It's kind of not just about us, but maybe the next step is helping others.
Brooke Hersch:Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Brooke, thank you so much for your time today. I wish we, you know, could could delve even further into this. But this has been amazing. It's been great. And I love I love the fact that you're animated. Because this matters to you, you know, this is really, and by the way, I think you should do this more often. This is this is one of those areas that I you've said even here today that this is new to you. But I think you have a gift in this and teaching and, and sharing insights. You're a voracious reader and a learner. And I think you do apply these things in your own life and with your clients. So you're positioned to be a great educator of these things, too. So thanks for being on today.
Brooke Hersch:Thanks so much for having me and, and for offering the opportunity for me to grow.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed the podcast today, you know, please like this, so that you can get notifications for more podcasts that come up, share it with a friend or someone that you think might be going through some anxiety of their own and the need to grow. I hope that can be helpful to you. And we look forward to seeing you again or or sharing some more information with you the next time. Thanks for being with us.