Dr. Tim Thayne interviews Tracy Poizner, the Essential Stepmom, on the womanly art of raising other people's kids. As a bio mom, a divorced mom, a single mom and now a stepmom, Tracy has learned the ins and outs of the stepfamily situation from a traditional, original family system. She teaches moms and dads in our audience how to find the little tweaks that need to be done intentionally to keep their new family system strong.
Dr. Tim Thayne interviews Tracy Poizner, the Essential Stepmom, on the womanly art of raising other people's kids. As a bio mom, a divorced mom, a single mom and now a stepmom, Tracy has learned the ins and outs of the stepfamily situation from a traditional, original family system. She teaches moms and dads in our audience how to find the little tweaks that need to be done intentionally to keep their new family system strong.
Hi, everyone, welcome to the not by chance podcast. We are grateful today to be able to have special expert, Tracy Poizner on the show. She's going to talk to us a little bit about we're gonna connect the dots between what we do here at Homeward Bound and helping teens transition home after treatment. And the very common scenario where we have a step parent involved in that. And Tracy is an expert on that and and Tracy, welcome to the show and love to have you start out if you would talk a little bit about the backstory, your backstory of how you became you basically a whole host of different types of mothers hear from stepmom, bio mom divorced mom, single mom and remarried. Mom, can you tell us about that? And your a little bit about your journey?
Tracy Poizner:Sure. Well, they're all me. I mean, yeah, that's right. That's pretty normal. In the beginning, I got married and and I had a daughter. And then when she was about 11, her dad and I split up. So then I was a single divorced mom. And after a number of years, I met my present husband. He's got three kids. So then I was a remarried mom and, and a stepmom of his kids. And we and I've been every kind of possible stepmom to them, they they lived very far away from us. Initially, they were three hours away. So he was he used to go there to visit them. And they came here only very seldom. And then they came to live here with us full time. And funny story, they actually came one at a time. So we joke that we've been the serial parents of an only child four times in a row. Which is a really unique experience. And it's, it's been wonderful. But anyway, I'm 15 years into being a stepmom now. And my, my career has been in natural health actually, I'm a I'm a homeopath. That's what I've been doing for the last 22 years. So I have a lot of a lot of training and experience in, in listening to people and in and in, you know, a variety of healing modalities, and training in human psychology and child development and family dynamics, and so many things that were essential to me in, in helping my family. And as we got out of the period of, you know, a lot of choppy waters in our own situation, with, you know, long distance parenting and parental alienation, and, you know, legal stuff, and court stuff and mental health stuff. You know, when that all kind of settled down, I thought, my goodness, I think I probably have some stuff to share here, you know, about getting what it's like to get through all of that and get to the end. So I started out with a Facebook group, and move to a podcast. And now I have a Facebook group for the dads as well, because I'm really realizing after three and a half years of working with step moms, that that the dads are getting the short end of the stick, and they really need a lot of a lot of support in this. In this journey. And especially where we're talking about this is where you and I converge, especially where we're talking about reintegrating kids who have been traumatized in some way who have suffered from, you know, emotional psychological problems, to bring them back into, you know, a functional family unit. So that's the, that's the place where I'm working exactly. But in the blended family context, where there are two households with a mom and dad who, you know, don't see eye to eye.
Dr. Tim Thayne:You know, it's, it's very common to see, I think, especially mothers who have gone through a lot of pain, for one reason or another, to want to then share and help and, and help heal if possible. Others who are going through something that they're, they've been through already. And, and it seems like that's the path that you've taken. You've been through this personally, you have a professional, some professional expertise that's lending in that a goal of yours to help others and and it's expanded now. I mean, you had your first person experience with being the mother step mother, and and now you're zeroing in a little bit More on the fathers. And I bet that feels really good to fathers to have someone kind of advocate, you know,
Tracy Poizner:and I'm so happy about that. Because, as I've you know, I've, I've reached out to quite a lot of dads to be guests on my podcast, divorced dads divorce guys. And they are really so grateful that that a woman is interested in their perspective and interested in you know, helping them to do this, and I it just feels like a really good fit for me, I was worried that it would be a little weird or something. But it doesn't, it doesn't seem to be. It seems to be a natural, unnatural to I've always had men in my, in my practice in my, in my natural health practice, but but it does feel like a really good fit. I'm happy to be doing this.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's great. So I was just looking at your website a little bit before we we got on, and you say that there's an art to raising other people's kids. And I 100% believe that I haven't done it myself. But I've worked with quite a few step parents in my career. And I'd love for you to describe that for us what that art is, from your perspective.
Tracy Poizner:Yeah, I don't think we call this on my podcast, I call it the womanly art of raising someone else's kids. That's kind of a nod to a book from long time ago, maybe you remember what it was called the womanly art of breastfeeding. That's where I okay took that from. But yes, it's an art, you know, that I can't tell you how many? Well, first of all, there are like, over 1000 Women in my Facebook group, and about 1000 weekly listeners to my podcast. And I'm just one of many, many people working in this space, right. So almost everyone who marries or dates or lives with a man who has kids from another relationship is at some point going to find herself saying what's going on here, like, this is not anything like what I thought it was gonna be like, it's really so different from a traditional original first nuclear family, it's a completely different situation. And that's true, whether the, the mother of those children is, excuse me is helpful and cooperative. It's true, whether she's sort of oppositional and combative, it's true, whether she's alive or deceased, the the vibe is different. And what a lot of women don't understand is that the the kind of trying that they think they're supposed to do, is sending them off in another direction. And as you know, when you set off on a journey, you know, if you, if you if your feet are pointed, just a little tiny bit off of the, you know, the North Star or wherever you're headed, like, you don't have to be very far off course from the in the beginning to end up way in the wrong place. And that's what happens to women, they just the first few years, they think, Well, this is easy, this is going great, like what could go wrong, you know, and then they wake up one day saying, How did I get here? Like, this isn't what I what I thought it was going to be. And it's easy for women to slide into the sort of reflex habits and actions and roles and tasks that they always sort of thought they would do in their family.
Dr. Tim Thayne:But more traditional, more traditional family,
Tracy Poizner:you know, that, that you're sharing the child raising in some way that it's like, we'll do this 5050 And the thing they don't understand is that, that if they're if these children belong to their husband, their partner, he's already sharing the child raising maybe with somebody that he gets along with maybe with someone that it doesn't agree with him at all, and they can't stand each other. But the child raising is already being shared between them. And you can't hold up his end of that. It's a it's a different mindset around it. What I tell women is that, you know, you can you can stand there while he's holding up his hand and you can hold the umbrella. You can bring him a chair to sit down. You can bring him a sandwich, you can bring him in the remote for the TV. You can bring him his phone, you know, you can tell him stories. You can listen to him tell you stories. But you can't hold up his end of the parenting while he goes off to watch the game or do whatever. And it may be it sounds funny, or, you know, it's a funny kind of metaphor or image. But, but it's really, really true. Yeah, I think I The other thing that goes wrong in these kinds of situations is that, you know, a couple with kids get divorced, the dad really, really wants to have a 5050 custody or even more, let's say where it's possible. And he very quickly discovers that it's really, really hard to, you know, single mothers know that it's hard to, but it's really hard to do this by yourself. And that, there's, you know, he's so grateful for the help, like, when he meets a new partner, he's so grateful for help, that he's easy to let it slide back into well, you'll do this part, and I'll do that part. And like, you'll take care of bedtime and bath time, because you're good at that. Or you'll take care of mealtime, because like, that's what you do. And it doesn't respect what the kids need, actually, from their dad. And so that's where we get into trouble, that it's there's a different, a different flavor of, of helping and a different flavor of like, what does it mean to help someone raise their kids,
Dr. Tim Thayne:you know, to help things go right before they go wrong is kind of a philosophy that that I think we all of us have, if we're if we're there early enough, we would love to prevent, you know, some of the major strain and conflict and uncertainty. Yeah, of a situation like that. What What would a good conversation look like between a biological father, a new partner, new wife, that's come in? If they were, if they were really knowledgeable about this art that needs to be kind of created? What What would you suggest they do? And what what should they talk about?
Tracy Poizner:That's a really great question. I think you can't, you can't overestimate the importance of having agreements between you. And instead of relying on expectations. Everybody goes into this with unconscious expectations of what's going to happen. And a lot of the problem, or a lot of the issues that I hear are from women who wanted to be another mother, for these kids, like they were excited about that they were looking forward to it. And they don't want to hear that there's, you know, a limited opportunity for them to do that. Like they want to be in, you know, full bore, they're doing homework, they're driving to soccer games, they're going to parent teacher conferences, like they're all over it. And they don't, they don't understand that by being too efficient. You know, like, by being too good at that there does somehow diluting the Father's presence or role or importance or connection with his children.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yeah, that that reminds me of the whole principle of the over functioning, that's right, under functioning kind of equilibrium. Right. And, and I've seen it in my own family, I've watched it with my eyes wide open, actually happen in in lots of ways. In some some ways, it's kind of, you know, it's not not a problem, it's okay to have someone, maybe over function in some ways, and the other not function as well or not understand or not have some kind of equal, you know, partnership in it. But it can really become a problem, as you're saying here. I mean, an example I've seen in my own life, my wife is an excellent letter writer. And she's really great at keeping the family close and communication. And as soon as we got married, we both moved back, we moved back to Virginia to go to school back there. And she took on the job of staying in touch with my family, helping me stay in touch with my family, and trying to do the thing newsletter and all these other things. And the more she did that, the more I It wasn't my natural gift to do and and the less I I did, and so I think after a while, she became maybe a little uncomfortable with that and even frustrated at me over distancing from that role. And I imagine the same could be true with many of these cases where the moms naturally wanted Jump in, you know, take part be that 5050 partner in parenting. Yeah. And the father might be really grateful. But in time he's deployed displaced. Right, right.
Tracy Poizner:That's right. And, and also I don't know, like they, the step moms don't want to hear it. Until they're, you know, you're talking about preventing problems before they start, but they, like, nobody gets this until they're standing in it. And they go, oh, like, Oh, this is that, you know, like that, that they, they don't understand that, that there. I mean, the other big problem, okay, the big problem that requires some understanding of the child's perspective is that children are not wired to have to mothers. I mean, any human beings are not wired for that by biology by evolution, whatever. And, of course, I'm not talking about same sex households, I have to preface that. But uh, you know, we're not talking about two parents in the same home who love and support each other. You're not wired to have two mothers who live in different places. And when you find your way a child, what happens to a child is that when they the child finds themselves loving this other mother, and they feel tremendously guilty for a split second, because they have to kind of kick their other mother, their biological mother out of the nest. To make room for this. There's no internal wiring for how do I love both of these women. And so what they do is they unloved the first one to make room. And then you have this kind of instantaneous, like, your whole nervous system jerks you back into reality. And you'll feel so much shame for having done that. That then then they start acting out because they feel guilty. And they, they want to redeem their mother, who they've rejected. They want to be punished for having done this terrible thing. And then you start seeing this weird acting out that doesn't have any meaning. Like five minutes ago, we were having such a good time and everybody was getting along and all of a sudden, now this child is being so mean to me, or this child is acting out or having a tantrum, like I don't understand what happened. And when I explain it to them, they get such a look on their face. Like that's exactly I now I see it, I see exactly what you're talking about. So it happened in my family. You know, it happened I saw it with my own eyes. And as my stepson got older, he could express it in words like I know that it happened because he's told me that that was it and and other kids have expressed it so like you're not doing them a favor by taking the the sort of energetic persona of another mom, you you can be very much loved as a different kind of persona like an aunt or an auntie. Like the the mother who lives next door like your best friend's mom, like a teacher, like a coach like your Girl Guide leader. Like a mentor. Everybody has people like that in their life who they who they love and feel really close to and that doesn't compete with the feeling that you have for your mother.
Dr. Tim Thayne:You know, you're making me think a little bit about how important titles are Yeah, so you were talking about the different roles and different kinds of relationships you could have with with the stepmom what what would you recommend? I mean, I would assume you would you would recommend not to require ask the stepchild to call your mom
Tracy Poizner:oh yeah, boy.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Start there.
Tracy Poizner:Right that's a that's starting there is big for sure. I mean, that that would be That's a terrible thing. You know, it's
Dr. Tim Thayne:a terrible you're creating you're putting them in a basically a no win scenario.
Tracy Poizner:I have to I'll be honest, there are plenty of families where that works. And you know where it works especially, is where the mom has kids. So where mom and dad both are bringing kids into the family. Like especially imagine that mom has three kids and dad brings sorry, that's my dog barking if you can hear that noise. Okay. Let's say that dad is for Again, one child into this family and mom has three kids, and they're making a step family together. So all the other kids call this lady mom. And you're the one who has to call her Glinda or whatever. Like, that's weird. Like, now you're the one who doesn't fit in, you don't fit quite in with the with your other step siblings. That would be very isolating and weird,
Dr. Tim Thayne:huh. So, like some exceptions,
Tracy Poizner:there's always exceptions, right? There are exceptions where the, I've heard of plenty of cases. I mean, it's it's rare, but it happens where the families in the two different households completely respect each other. And they support the child in making a really good relationship with both the the parents in each household. So there are kids who say I have two moms and two dads. And, you know, if it works for that child, it's okay. But you know, my I have a cousin who married a man who had lost his first wife, so the little boy had lost his mother. And he was completely smitten with my cousin who, you know, became the new partner. And in the beginning, he wanted to call her mom when he was five years old, and after a couple of years, then he didn't want to do that anymore. And that has to be okay. You know, you have to, you have to not take it as a stab in the heart, you know, it has to be okay that the child is moving into a different phase of his own development. And he doesn't need that feeling from you anymore, he needs something different. And of course, you're going to do whatever you can to provide it, but to be adaptable to the changing, you know, to the progress of the child in his own mature a maturation and development.
Dr. Tim Thayne:It's really fun to hear you talk about this, Tracy, you're you are truly an expert here. It's the subtle kinds of things. And the fact that there is such a variety of outcomes, that you can speak to a lot of those different things. Let's talk for a second about, you know, a situation, let's say case where two parents have a lot of conflict in their marriage, ultimately, they divorce they've got a teen and this is years leading up to this point, you know, that there's been a lot of conflict in the home and, and now the teen hits, you know, an age where they are really struggling with different things. And on top of that their parents divorce. And this is a situation we see a lot in the work that we do at Homeward Bound, where that teen is maybe off the rails at this point, to the point where they're, you know, maybe experimenting with drugs and alcohol, or they're depressed and suicide ideation, and maybe hospitalization. And ultimately, they're sent to a residential treatment program, let's say. And in the meantime, there's, there's maybe a girlfriend comes into the scene. And in some cases, there's a marriage or if they, they start living together, and this, this teen is, you know, not even in the home, and in some of these cases, and then they come back to a really different world that, you know, then when when they left, their parents are completely not not together anymore. The stepmom is now in the picture. What do you think? What are some tips you could give these parents bringing the teen home in a situation like that, where there's been some progress made? Probably some letters and different contact made between them, but it's a it's a whole new situation. Now they're coming back to?
Tracy Poizner:Well, like, I would say, that's a that sounds like a disaster from so many points of view. You know, I think that, that were that kind of, like, first of all, I just want to speak to the, the potentially suicidal teenager because I do sadly hear a lot of that. And it's so important for parents to understand this idea that you know, a child is made of half mom and half dad 50% Mom and 50% That's the biology of a human being, you know, it's a biological reality. You're made of half mom and half dad and not one sweet thing else. You know, so that when your parents split up, and don't get along with each other, half of you is not okay, wherever you are. You know, Every where you stand, one half of you is now not okay. When you're with mom, the half of you, that is your dad, not that comes from your dad, half of you is your dad. And that half of you is now bad, in some way, is not acceptable, you know, not accepted. And when you go to dad's house, the same is true of mom. And like that, that idea that feeling that reality, makes people hate themselves, like you are never okay, anymore, there's nowhere that you can stand and be completely 100%. Okay, so talk about something driving a child to drugs and suicide. That's the thing. That's it. And, like, nobody can live with that kind of being not okay. And for certain personality types, and people who are already have a certain backpack of different, you know, traumatic experiences, that's the thing that tips them over the edge, that I can't live at my mother's house, where she hates my dad so much, because that means that I'm, I'm no good for her. All the parts of me that love and respect and are loyal to my dad are bad, I have to erase that. And it's not possible because it's who I am, it's in my DNA. There's no way for me to redeem myself and ever, ever again, be okay with my mother. That's what they're integrating. So, yes, they feel suicidal. And I would like to think that, you know, if you have a child who is in a residential treatment program for suicidal illness, you're not taking that opportunity to move on with your life and move in with with a partner like that would be a significant betrayal of the, you know, the primacy of the needs of your child over your own belongingness needs. So if if it were to happen, that, you know, what often happens is, the case that I would see more often is that a child has been alienated from their parent by the behavior of one parent. So because I work with dads, I'm going to speak about Mom's here. But I, I'm very, very aware that it happens in the other direction. But we're going to say that mom has for many years been telling the child, your dad is a bad guy, he's not paying child support, even if he you really is, and he's the one who left us even if she's the one who decided, you know, that's a litany of, of complaints. Painting dad, as a bad guy, and dad has not had any access for a number of years. And then either because the child reaches out or because of, you know, court proceeding, dad now has access to this child who has to visit with him but doesn't trust him doesn't feel loved by Him doesn't know know anything about him? How are you going to make this work? You know, and especially where, as you said, there's another person in the house, now there's a new partner. So her job is going to be to be as invisible as possible, as completely invisible as possible to be leaving as much space as possible for the two of them to, you know, awkwardly at first, reconnect in some way.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's really, really good. And I'm going back to what you said earlier, where that stepmom can be holding the umbrella can be, you know, bringing the dinner, whatever it is, what does that look like, you know, outside the metaphor? What does that look like for that stuff
Tracy Poizner:like, that looks like tidying house, it looks like doing laundry, it looks like doing the dishes. It looks like preparing the stage for dad to have more time to be with his kids. So that so that maybe, you know, the household duties are what you share 5050 In a partnership often not always. But you know, it certainly is in my house. And so I am, I am gladly taking over some of his share of like mundane, daily housekeeping activities when his kids are there so that he can spend more of that time with them. I'm, you know, potentially doing some driving. I'm certainly being an extra pair of hands to say that I might occupy myself with one child while he's with another to have some one on one time. That would be a great way of doing it. But it's not because I'm fulfilling my 5050 expectation of parenting. I'm for If I'm doing something that allows him The, to, to deeply connect with his kids one at a time, I'm occupying the other one, while he is at work being a parent, I'm not parenting that other child.
Dr. Tim Thayne:What I really like about what you're saying is that you're asking them to all be true to really their true role. And, you know, they might be also tempted to kind of become the therapist for their, their husband to try to help them do that, or any number of things they might do, but what you're talking about is just really, truly being a helper domestically, a helper in terms of how, you know, spending time with the children giving him space and time. And it's not
Tracy Poizner:wrong to like, It's not wrong to help with homework at all, but it's wrong to be the one who's on the kids about their homework. Right? You're, you know, you can if somebody asked me for how I do it all the time here, I'm, I'm happy to help with homework, but I'm never the one who's saying, Have you done your homework? Like, that's, that's dad's job. And you can't care more about that than he does. That's the wrong energy.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Mm hmm. These are very complicated relationships. And it does often require a third party to come in and, and help it. They rarely, because it's so complicated, and it's so fraught with emotion and uncertainty about roles and all of those different things, it's really easy for, for it to just kind of continue to spiral down and spiral down again, and then down again, instead of recovering, I mean, we all have bumps in the road. And new relationships like this will will bring will definitely show us some bumps but but I think this is where I'd like to just bring in the the idea and the need for a third party, you know, expert, someone to come in and support that the bio parents being able to co parent and work together because when there's a vacuum and they're not doing that, well, it will invite this new stepmom into the space, this
Tracy Poizner:is what happens that what I hear so often is this idea, like somebody's got to do this, like this child is being, you know, allowed to not keep up with their school to not brush their teeth to not have good bedtimes like somebody's got to do this. And my answer is somebody doesn't have to do it, or I mean, it like that's hard to hear that you You're, you're just supposed to allow a child under your roof to, you know, be a little bit wild or whatever. But I think they don't recognize that every time you step in as the as the stepmom every time you step into enforce your ideas of how a child should be raised. Dad doesn't have to do it, he doesn't have to do anything. And you have to accept that, that his way of raising children might be different than yours. And he gets to pick because it's his kid. And, and that, that the more you we you touched on this earlier, but the more that you're over functioning and jumping in to fill those voids, the more he's not getting to find his own way. And something that I Okay, it's something that I realized as an epiphany, but I used to do this like I used to do what I perceived was filling in the gaps. And you have to know that my husband is a real hands on dad, he is the cook and bottle washer, he's he cooks the food, he cleans the kitchen, he does all their laundry, like he never ever asked me to do those things. But whatever I perceived as you know, a kind of a gap. I would I would do it. And that the problem is that or what I realized anyway, is that my husband has the right to screw up in raising his kids like, like, how not fun is it to have somebody breathing down your neck about like, he has the right to mess up. He has the right to have bad arguments with them that go nowhere or say mean things that he wished he didn't say and then have an apology and take them back or whatever. Like he has the right to do it his way and to roll up his sleeves and get messy and and fix it. And when I I allow myself to believe that and step out of the way, it always writes itself without my interference. And that's way, way, way better. I'll just I'll give you a quick example. We had both of our young adult kids, my stepkids, were here with us through the whole first five months of this pandemic lockdown. So we're for adults living under the same roof, everybody was, you know, getting pretty antsy with nowhere to go and nothing to do. And my stepson was doing one more summer course and university because there was nothing else to do. So he was studying online. And he kept trying to engage his dad, in conversations about what he was learning. And, and dad just kept, you know, blowing him off and wasn't being very, I felt he wasn't being very understanding. And I was biting my tongue so hard, like, to draw blood, you know, like, I just wanted to say, can you see that, you know, you're missing this opportunity. And he's trying to whatever I just had to, I mean, I forced myself to keep my mouth shut, which is not what I would have done 10 years before, but like I've learned in the meantime. And at after some weeks of this, when I finally I waited for a good moment, to kind of bring it up when we were both calm, and it wasn't, you know, an emotional time. And I sort of gently probed the idea that maybe he could take a different perspective on this, he held up his hand, and he said, you can stop right there. He said, he's already raised me out about that. And, you know, me staying out of the way allowed an opportunity for this young man to stand up for himself to his dad, and say, Dad, like, what's going on here, I keep trying to talk to you about this, you're not paying attention to me, I feel really not seen and whatever. Like, that's a fantastic interaction that they had. And dad really heard him and say, said, You're right. I'm sorry that I've been that way. So it was perfect. I just had to stay out of the way and trust that it would happen.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yes. Amazing how often that's the case where we, paradoxically, let go. And, and something better happens. Usually, when we're trying to control the outcome. It usually does not end well. Yeah. And, and the paradox is, is we let go and focus on what our role is, and do that the very best we can. That's when the best outcomes happen. And I think that's, as we wrap up here, Tracy, I think that's what I'd like to maybe end on is a few ideas, maybe a couple of thoughts that you have just to wrap up on. Kind of big principles that like this one, letting go and focusing on ourselves can usually produce the best outcomes. What else comes to mind for you the
Tracy Poizner:the, the basic principles that I offer, the dads that I'm working with, is to let go of what's happening wrong at the other home, and focus exclusively on what you're doing in your home as a parent. And that's what I work with, with them on because there are 1000 things that you can do to improve your connection with your kids. And that's the thing that's going to move the needle for you. That's what's going to move the needle that's what's going to bond you indelibly to your child in a way that nobody will be able to, to sever there's no amount of brainwashing or gaslighting or alienation that will disrupt that relationship, if you get, you know fully onto your job of of showing up as a leader for your child, what they need from you the leadership and the security that they need from you if you get onto to providing that to the best of your ability. That's what's going to make the right outcome for you.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Tracy, what a great way to end this because there's nothing more helpful than knowing if I'm a stepdad or I mean a father, and I have been trying to control what's going on in the other home, just that you have given permission and even that the very best outcomes they could have would be to just focus on your relationship. Absolutely. And it's all within your control. There's like you said so many things you can do. And instead of hitting roadblock after roadblock to trying to get Something happened in the other home, you're able to to really affect change within your own home, your own life, your own relationships. So, what a great way to leave us with hope and thoughts of what we can do. I so appreciate you being on with me today. I love talking to someone with that kind of expertise, that depth of knowledge. And I wish you all the best in your career. Do you want to share with everybody that might be listening to this podcast? How they might find out more about you and connect with you? Sure.
Tracy Poizner:My website is essential step mom.com. I have a I have a podcast called Essential stepmom. That's on all the platforms. You can find me there. I have a Facebook group called the spectacular step mom, just to make it not the same. Not so easy. Maya Facebook group for the dads, the biological dads is called one for the dads, and you're welcome to just send a join request there.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Oh, that sounds great. Well, thank you again. It's been really valuable information and wish you all the best in what you're doing and would love to maybe talk with you again sometime. Thank you. I'd love that. All right, Tracy, take care.
Tracy Poizner:Okay, thanks.