Not By Chance Podcast

How Parents Can Inspire a Passion for Lifelong Learning in a Burned Out Teen: with Kelsey Komorowski

May 06, 2021 Dr. Tim Thayne Season 2 Episode 15
Not By Chance Podcast
How Parents Can Inspire a Passion for Lifelong Learning in a Burned Out Teen: with Kelsey Komorowski
Show Notes Transcript

Kelsey uses her 16 years of experience working closely with students and their parents to develop the skills, mindsets and attributes they need to thrive not only in school, but as lifelong learners and thoughtful, confident human beings.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Well, hello everybody. It's great to be back with you again, this is Tim Thayne with not by chance podcast, and we got a special guest today in the area of education and, and learning and helping parents and students and, and that really critical task of development and learning. We had a little chance to chat beforehand and I have with me here, Kelsey, come around ski. Is that the way you pronounce your last name? Kelsey.

Kelsey Komorowski:

Close it up. Ski.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Well, one more time, say that again? Cover a ski Komorowski. Great. Where's that from?

Kelsey Komorowski:

That is Polish, or Belorussia, depending on which grandparent I asked.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Great. Well, it's great to meet you. And thank you for being on the podcast today. Really excited about this, because it sounds like you're your agency, and you do a lot of work with, with teens, where there's multiple stakeholders around them, maybe they've got a therapist, maybe they've got some, some learning challenges and things like that. And so I think you're the perfect guest for our podcast. So as we get into this, and I think some of the things I think our audience will really want to hear about is what their role is in and talking to the parents, you know, what is their role in this process of learning? Is it just a, you know, check on skyward? And make sure that, you know, all the assignments are turned in? Or, you know, what can they do to help and I'll tell you that academics, as it turns out, is one of those, I guess, yellow, to red flags that happened that end up, you know, when when a child starts to refuse school, or their grades start to tumble, and, and there's usually a mix when we're dealing with them, clear mental health issues, or anxiety, depression, substance use, whatever it might be, and, and they parents can kind of see their, their kids and be okay with their kids sort of limping along, as long as they're kind of performing, okay? Academically, that's sort of their signal that they're sort of progressing. But when that starts to go down, they realized that maybe they better address the whole thing. And so that that's when we start to see teens you know, them saying, you know, actually, it's looking like outpatient therapy is not really working, it's not enough, there might need to be a bigger intervention to help them get back on track. And so that's kind of the world I come from. And maybe if you could take a second just introduce yourself to the audience and, and why you founded your organization. And what makes you guys different.

Kelsey Komorowski:

Sure, thank you, Tim, for that for that intro. It's, it's a pleasure to be here. And the I'm really excited to unpack so much of what you just shared my wondering where to start here. So in brief, Kelsey Cameron was given an educator for 16 years, I've worn a few different hats. From that time, I've been a traditional tutor, I've been a residential tutor. For high net worth ultra high net worth families, I've been a student success analyst with the government that was really my first formal entry point into learning and teaching and pedagogies, I was working at the Student Achievement division. And I think Tim, the short of the very long answer why I founded my company, it was it was in the first it was throughout the course of working at the Student Achievement division, and I was in the research evaluation data management team. So we were looking at here at Ontario, and based in Toronto, we have 72 school boards. And a big part of my job was looking at student success initiatives and starting to really get at the data at a granular level of what is working versus not working to bridge achievement gaps, right, and especially when it comes to different segments of the population, right, socio economically marginalized communities, etc. And on the one hand, I learned so much, and I was working with the most incredible people. And on the other hand, it was my first experience in government and I learned about you know, the bureaucracy and red tape and, and it was really difficult because as somebody, you know, had always done tutoring was really my thing for so many years. And I really loved working directly with families with students and seeing that impact and seeing that student go from I don't get it to, oh, there it is. And that was missing for me with government, you know, we were having an impact in a different way but just you know, the pace of change that it would take to iterate different initiatives to actually start to see something, you know, take place was too much. So I thought, you know, what I want to kind of explore what are some other options to have more of that immediate impact? So while I was working there, I put out an ad to to read Connect and start tutoring. And within a month I just had I had a waitlist. And I that's what it really hit me like, wow, the way I'm quote unquote tutoring is not standard. You know, I'm not going in and telling kids what they need to know, my whole thing has always been well, how are we thinking? How are we problem solving? How can we get resourceful? Right? My job was always to support them and learning how to learn, so to speak. And so after about a month, I had this waitlist. And I thought, You know what, I don't know what's going on here. But it's something and I was really loving it. And so I gave notice, to my very stable government job, you can imagine my parents were delighted. After all this education, but I left and I, after that, we kind of hit the ground running. And I started working with a team of incredible educators, policymakers, professors, PhDs, principals, like you name it, and we were all working to get at the root of like, what is the cause of student stress and struggle? Why do students struggle, and it was really interesting, you know, we came face to face with a lot of assumptions that I had held as far as learning differences, learning styles, you know, different curriculum, all these different kinds of external factors. But we found through a lot of research and working with students all over North America, all different learner profiles, different curriculum, different languages, different family backgrounds. And it was that really, those externalities, they matter. But at the end of the day, if a student does not have the skills, to manage and engage in their work, they're never going to learn or achieve to their potential. And that is what, after all, this research and development, we packaged our methods and models into an online offering long before it was pandemic popular. And that's what we've been doing ever since is just trying to really spread the word that school doesn't have to suck. Basically, it doesn't have to be such a source of pain and like, angst. And I'll stop there, too. I said, I was going to do the short version. But alas,

Dr. Tim Thayne:

I was so good. I mean, of course, my mind goes to what are the skills? What are the skills that that I assumed the average student doesn't have? But that they need, right?

Kelsey Komorowski:

Absolutely. And if the average student, it's also the average person, because a cool part of when we're doing this research, and this is why our slogan is learning for life, right? We're very much focused. These are not just the skills to succeed in school, but truly to succeed long after school is over. Like, regardless of what path a small part of my work before was working in corporate work and working with executives, and the correlation of, you know, 90% of my work with students, and then working with executives. And it was like, these really, you know, successful people who were doing well, by all accounts, but then I'd work with them. And like, it's like, Well, I never was good at writing, I was just never good at it, I never got it. And that's holding them back at work. So that kind of spectrum from classroom to career. So we focus on five core skills, we look at critical thinking, communication, time management, executive functioning, and metacognition. And we found that pretty much every we talked about SMA skills, mindsets, and attributes. And they all more or less draw from those five, usually a combination, these skill sets inform each other. But those are the those are the critical core five, as we call them. And everything that we do, essentially, we just use schoolwork, really, as the vehicle to build out those skills measurably and explicitly.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

That's awesome. Because, you know, there's nothing like, you got the content of the focus, you're trying to Yeah, help them do their schoolwork. But it's the process that really matters. And that's what you're focused on. Right? You're, you're helping them learn the process of learning of critical thinking of all of those those core skills. So to be honest with you, I'm sitting there going, I think I need what you have, you know, personnel. So that sounds really, really good applicable to all of us here. I'm curious about the parent role. And so you got those five skills, you're going to help the students learn? How do you interface with the parents? And what are you hoping to help them with?

Kelsey Komorowski:

Tidmouth? I love that question. So much. So I want to just give a brief context. The first few years, our service delivery was with students only. Right. So of course, we would talk to parents and we would talk to other stakeholders as needed, but it was really focused on the student. And what we found, though, what we were observing, we started we kept seeing these patterns emerge. And it was like, you know, we would parents who are rock stars with the best of intentions, but things that they would be saying to their kids and my team and I would just be like, oh, man, that's unintentionally, right, like sabotaging their learning and achievement. So when we initiated a parent pilot, and I know what to expect by this was a couple years ago now and suffice to say, this is one of the reasons that we have a family model. So we don't only work with students, we work very intensively with parents also, so that they can also learn how to learn and there's a couple of things here, Tim, and I'll just put it out there you can tell me which direction will most resonate. But on the one hand, you know, as we know is you know, student success. Right, and happiness in general, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Right? So to have parents and students and often siblings, the whole family unit, building a shared vocabulary around skill building around learning around what achievement looks like around what responsibilities are using the same terms is so critical. Like most of our kids, they don't know what metacognition is, a lot of our parents don't either. How are they going to build that skill explicitly? How are they going to establish a culture of skill building in the home if they don't have a shared language with which to explore and talk about it right, and figure out their own values towards it. So that's first and foremost, just making sure that we can all be on the same page, because it's impossible to achieve a shared vision if there's not a shared language, right to establish that mission. And then, as far as the role, I think the easiest way to put it, every family that we talked to, we kind of see one of one of two things happening, but all of them wanting the third thing. So either parents are looking at their teens, and they very much want to step back, right. And they're like, I need to let my team do their own thing become more independent, so parents will step back. But if their kids don't have the tools to stand on their own two feet, it doesn't work. And then the parents step back in, and they're like, Well, I gave you this, but you didn't do it. Or if parents give their kids the tools, and the kids are ready, and they're like, I'm good, I've got it. But the parents are afraid. And they're like, Hmm, I don't want to step back yet. Both of those scenarios technique tend to end in disaster, from what I've just seen. And I've sat in a lot of living rooms where there's just a lot of tension and a lot of resentment. And it can just breed a lot of conflict. The ideal, and this is where we support both our parents and our kids separate and sometimes in some mediation sessions is where parents and kids are both gaining the tools to learn to stand on their own two feet and step back, so that everybody feels happy, everybody feels respected, and valued. And with our parents, the big thing is, you know, because again, parents are amazing, and they want their kids to be happy. And one of the biggest things I find myself saying is stop solving their problems. Like outside, outside of, you know, I'm not talking about general, you know, wellbeing, mental health, things like that. But like, you know, there, you think that they might fail this test, or you think they might do this, like, step back our whole job, and this is our job to is to make sure that they have the skills that they understand their own values and priorities as autonomous humans who are capable of solving their own problems.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

This is really impressive, Kelsey, because it's so mirrors our process at homeward bound. And everything you're talking about is exactly what we do. At homeward bound. On the mental health side on the parenting sides. It's just, I guess, I'm wondering how, how serious are you all about involving the parents in the sense of, Is there are there parents out there families out there that contact you, and they just want you only to work with the child? And and they're resistant to being a part of the process? And, and and how do you handle that?

Kelsey Komorowski:

And that's such a good question. And I'll share my answer that I'm really curious to hear about how you guys handle it, because it's definitely, I mean, on the one hand, at this stage, we don't even, you know, for our flagship program, it's application only, and we interview each family. And you know, for that, even if we have parents, moms, especially that's 99% of the people calling, and we love our moms, and they'll be like the dads not involved in the school. Really, it's, you know, I do everything. And for us, we've just seen so many times where it's like, even if that's the case, dads attitudes, whether he's there or not speak volumes, right? Like the those those household dynamics are really critical. And for us to know if we can help and to make sure that we can help that we're the right fit. We've got to have both parties on. So by and large, I find that that a lot of families are like, No, I just want like, I just want to I want to do it. So that right there was like, nope, both all parents guardians have to be on along with the student. So that I think kind of does some of the heavy lifting for us with respect to like, who's serious as far as the parents being involved. And then it's to be completely honest. And it's an ongoing challenge. Because at this stage, you know, when we know that we can help the student when we know that the parents are on board. And we say, you know, we expect parent participation. I personally host coaching calls with parents, you know, our team is giving weekly updates, like it really is a family model. And for the most part most parents do, you know, they participate in show up but also they're busy, they have work, they have lives, they often have other kids, they have other aspects to tend to,

Dr. Tim Thayne:

and they sometimes have conflict with each other. Kelsey, so really, that's what we see a lot, right? Yeah, no, that's very true. They might be really, you know, in general, caring and wanting their child to succeed, but they can't work together. And so you have to solve help them solve that problem.

Kelsey Komorowski:

And you know what, it's impossible to do. out if they don't show up a lot of the time, it's just like, and again, that's ongoing. We're trying to figure out, you know, is there a different policy to put in place? Because realistically, we know there are families we know that we can help, the parent engagement aspect might not be perfect. But does that, you know, how does that affect really who we decide. So it's to be honest, yeah, to work in work in progress. But Tim, I'd love to hear how you guys navigate that at homeward bound. Because it sounds like that is also definitely a challenge for you guys.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

It is, you know, the subtitle of my book is how parents boost their teen success in and after treatment. So it's actually highlighting the reality of of their, their, the need for them to be a part of it, and also just how much influence they actually have. And when I think about the key success factors for Homeward Bound, one is parent engagement in general, that they need to be a part of it. But the second one is parental unity, is how how, how, you know, when a teen is struggling, it puts a lot of pressure on the family system. And it starts to show any cracks or differences between the parents and, and those parents often start to try and balance each other out. And usually, they're kind of moving apart as they try and do that. And so that tension builds and the family dynamics get to be really problematic. And, and so we found and I've, I've asked our coaches for many, many years, what are the most important factors and success, out of all the things we teach out of all the things we do, and they keep coming back to emotional management, and parental unity, those two things, and oftentimes, they're, they're affecting each other. And, and so we have to feel like, we can, you know, we have a lot of situations where we have a single parent where the other parent is, is not in the picture or is in the picture, but they're mostly living with one parent. And we will attempt to work with that. And, but I will say that we've turned down a lot of families over the years where we could not get them, maybe they just wanted us to come in and magically help their team succeed without their participation. And that doesn't fit at all for us. And we have to, you know, encourage them to try and find someone else who might fit their philosophy more, it might be that they're just out of gas, you know, they're so, so tired at this point, that their stamina is gone. So that could be the reason. And so we try to help them get hope and get energy and get engaged in those cases. Other times, they just don't think they've got a problem or a role to play. And, and if we can't overcome that one, then we're not a very good fit for them. And we know, we can't help them. So you know, I think we're trying to do the same thing you are, is we want to set the family up for success. And the teen up for success. And so we try and engage the parents in the right way, I could see going into the home with you. I mean, it'd be an amazing experience, because it would be it would be amazing to help set up the shared vision, the shared language, you know, the the academic plan, and what the parents role is, and the learning, I shouldn't say academic, it's the learning plan, how you know, building these skills, because that's exactly what we're doing on the, on the communication side, you know, on the problem solving side on the, essentially, the parenting principles, helping them kind of get on the same page of what, you know, these these challenges, if we encounter these challenges during what we call the testing phase when they get home from treatment. What What's the shared language around how we're going to parent and what does that look like so that we can now co parent in a in a United Way? And so, yeah, I I couldn't I don't think we could have found a better fit philosophically, you know, between a, you know, a program built around the idea of transitioning team back home and helping them be sex successful in their life in general, which includes this academic side and this learning side. Then then then you I'm really pleasantly surprised this morning.

Kelsey Komorowski:

Thank you, Tim. And I after the world opens back up, I'm gonna absolutely take you up on that.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Oh, yeah, oh, that'd be so amazing. I mean, it'd be fun to learn from each other and see how our parallel philosophies actually are, you know, right in sync and, and so let's do it. Let's do it well, and

Kelsey Komorowski:

you know what, Tim, honestly, as you were talking, it's so I feel like in, in, I'm gonna say our field, okay, just like working with families working with teams, there's often a lot of lip service I find paid to the word like holistic. And often, in my experience, there's not a whole lot back there as far as the methods or the models that really capture that. But what you've just said it was like this, that's the real deal when you're talking about holistic improvement, because even I love what you said about you know, some people and there's there's nothing judge judgment call about it at all. It's just some people are in a place where it's like, they want to have a transaction, I'll give you money, and I want you to fix my kid. Yeah. And on our end, it's like that transactional piece, it doesn't work, it might work for like a quick fix for the short term. But at the end of the day, the quality of the outcomes, right, in my experience, at least, is directly proportional to the quality of the relationships that underpin the entire process, right? Whether it's we're talking about the relationships that our teens have with themselves as learners and thinkers, the relationships that our parents have with themselves as lifelong learners, a lot of our parents, they're so accustomed to being in that role of authority, right? Where it's like, it's okay to show some intellectual humility, it's okay to be like, Man, I don't know, like, you know, that's, these are all things that are okay, and to create space and time, and it takes effort. And it's definitely not all families are in a place where they're able, you know, to do that. So I think I just I am, I love so much what you guys are doing, I think it's so necessary. And I literally have families in mind, it was making a few notes of people that are going to be sending your way.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Yeah, it would be it'd be really fun and incredibly powerful to team up with with a family do these home visits. So we, we actually do a pretty intensive, right when the the teen is coming back from a treatment program, they're coming from this highly structured setting, with a lot of support, both academically and emotionally, clinically. And they're going back home with low structure. Usually, sometimes the parents not really in sync with each other worries and concerns about academics, and all of that, and, and what we're trying to do is, is kind of get a fast start when they first get home in the right direction, because there's a little window of opportunity there, where everybody wants us to go well. And so their readiness to change and adapt and be coached and supported, is kind of at an all time high, you know, for the family system, because they've just invested a lot in helping you know, emotionally, financially in every other way to help this child get on track again, with their life. And so that window of opportunity, right, the beginning of that them coming home, we do a lot of early planning before they come home, but there's an immersion experience that we do right there. So I'm trying to, you know, let you know, Kelsey, that's where I want you to come with with me are one of our coaches to go in, during a three day kind of immersion experience. Where we kind of put it all together, and it is very comprehensive, it's holistic, you know, and you say that we actually try and go into the school when we can we, we create a network of support around a team that sometimes includes, we call it the home team. And sometimes it'll include like a special teacher that they've had in their life. I just came back from an amazing family and in the Midwest, and and at this home team gathering, during the three day experience, they gathered about 25 to 30 people that were in that teens life in some form or fashion or maybe they were there to support the parents but in the end, it was this outpouring of love and and affirmation of the growth they had had while they're away. And, and we did have a couple school folks, you know, we had a head of school there and a teacher. And so they're trying to help them in the schools knowing kind of this holistic plan, that there's some emotional challenges or some anxiety, there's a little bit of an addiction, whatever that is, and it just creates this relationship that you're talking about, you know, it like creates the, the fertile soil to plant these relationships in where they can see them not just as a student that's had trouble in the past, but as this team has made a lot of progress, and they've been vulnerable, and they're now wanting to stay on track, and it's, it's incredible. And so the holistic piece you mentioned, I think, is something we also believe in.

Kelsey Komorowski:

Clearly, Tim, that that even just that one story you just shared is, makes my heart so happy. Like, it's really it's honestly so heartening to hear things like that that are unfolding. And it's such a nice, I think, honestly, I think for a lot of students, at least that I talked to you, they don't know that it can be like that they're so accustomed to having school be such a source of tension and struggle and terrible. And then it often intersects with mental health challenges or these other things. And they it's just such a deficit experience, right? It's everything that to do with it. And it's like, there's not even that frame of reference of it can be this such public talking about growth and solutions and positivity. And, you know, it's like, I still wish every kid can know that that is something that they could have, you know,

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Oh, yeah. Kelsey, could you and I know we're getting close to the end of our time, but I think it'd be great if you could, am I right about that the time fast? Yeah,

Kelsey Komorowski:

sorry. I thought I just thought we'd been talking.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Yeah, no, it's what quick, very quickly. Could you tell us all just a quick example of a student that was feeling the way you're talking about, you know, just, it's a deficit is deficit experience? And that turned around? And how did it happen? A little case study, so that we can kind of see that.

Kelsey Komorowski:

Yeah, for sure. And you know, what I'll share. Because a lot of our students, you know, obviously, consent and privacy issues, we don't share a lot of the real names, but one of our kids, his name is Dylan, and he publicly shared his story. And it's actually on, it's on YouTube, it's on our website. So people can go listen to Dylan story, in his own words. But essentially, Dylan and his mom came to us last year, Dylan had failed out of grade 10, he had dealt with a lot of a lot of mental health challenges, some substance issues, you know, some pretty, pretty serious staff. And he had basically, kind of stopped doing school and on the call with him, you know, as his mom was just so upset with, you know, the relationship was really rocky, there was a lot of tension. And in the meantime, the big concern was like, He's not, he's stuck here at grade 10. Like, what's going to happen? So it was a very heavy conversation. And with Dylan, he shared with me, he's like, Well, I'm just not good at school. So like, why bother? It's just not gonna happen. And there was such a weight, and shorter the log, I was, like, done because I, we did our alert, we do something called a learning and achievement audit, which helps us get clear, we have a very sequence set of questions about to get clear on what, what is the situation? So after that, it was like, I was like, Dylan, I know, we can turn things around. Give me a couple of weeks. Can you trust me? It's just like, Fine, like, I guess, but like, it's not gonna work. Like nothing will happen. I was like, if you're open, if you are open to the possibility, like, let us help. And Dylan, so we're still working with him. He is doing incredible. He is so engaged in his work, he still has some ups and downs for sure. It's not perfect, but he's just he's thriving. And we're getting it. You know, his mom sends us messages from time to time. Like, my kid, who is this kid who just smiles doing math homework? Like, who is this child? It's awesome. And we're just it's such an incredible example of, you know, people again, talk about the transformative power of learning is just like that. He didn't know before how to do it. He didn't know how capable he was. And I think when you give kids when you show them, where it's like, Let's go bad. Like, let me hold up a mirror and show you how amazing you are. And and very slowly, but very Surely, they can start to believe it. And that's, that's where that's where the magic happens.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

That's where the Self Confidence comes. Absolutely, they can take on the next big thing. And wow, it's that's awesome. That's our goal, isn't it? I think for all of us to get to this place of confidence phase, we call that our final phase is confidence. And it's it's confidence, it's trust, building itself, it's trust between the parent and the teen. It's a new relationship and building relationship with them and their teachers. And, and all of that. So this has got me really, really excited. Did you have another thought there, Kelsey,

Kelsey Komorowski:

I really know what I'm like I could talk to you for another hour. But just one one quick thing that came to mind when you mentioned the confidence piece. It's it's obviously paramount for so many reasons. But we see and I'm sure like in your line of work 100% But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. The confidence piece is required for the identity piece, and especially with kids at this vulnerable age and especially it's very easy to get swayed and most of our kids don't really have have a strong clear sense of their own unique, you know, strengths or values or passions. It's often conflated with parents or teachers or friends. And for them to be able to tap into their authentic selves and like unapologetically be like, Oh, no, this is who I am. That is just the confidence that comes from that is like, it's amazing.

Dr. Tim Thayne:

Yes, yes. Yes, the deeper issue, you're mentioning there, that identity, knowing who they are, and knowing their capabilities, knowing that they've got a bright future. You know, that's, that's transformative. So yeah, this has been really neat. I'm surprised this morning to find someone like a kindred spirit and philosophy, how to help kids work with the whole family, and just how committed you are to that family approach. And so, Kelsey, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I think the parents out there listening are gonna love this and really appreciate the these ideas and thoughts that you've shared today. Thank you so much, Tim. And likewise, absolute pleasure, and I very much look forward to keeping in touch me too. Let's do it. And we will do a home visit together sometime in the future. I think that'd be amazing. All right, Kelsey, take care. Thank you so much, Tim.