Not By Chance Podcast
It’s hard to define what a successful and happy family is, much less how to achieve one. Dr. Tim Thayne, a thought-leader in teen treatment and parent coaching, shares inspiring best practices gleaned from decades of his own and other expert’s work related to intentional family living. Whether your family is in the midst of a major struggle or you are looking for fresh ideas to help you prioritize and enhance your home life, this podcast is for you.
Not By Chance Podcast
Dr. Timothy Smith: Connection inside the family
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Dr Tim Thayne interviews Dr. Timothy Smith, a psychologist and professor of counseling psychology at Brigham Young University. As social beings, we are wired for connectivity. Dr. Smith and Dr. Thayne discuss research-based solutions for parents to deepen connections and change unhealthy patterns inside the family. Learn universal principles that can help you achieve a balance between connection and leadership with your teen.
There are as many ways to parent as there are parents in this world. But there is one way to parent that wins every time. And that's doing it intentionally. This show is about helping things go right before they can go wrong. Each episode is chosen to help parents like you, who may be overwhelmed or uninspired. Find the ideas and motivation to give their best efforts to the people and place that matters the most. I'm Dr. Tim, Thayne, author of the book and host of the podcast, not by chance, I believe that a family's success and happiness is not by chance. So welcome to the podcast built especially for intentional families. Let's jump in. Well, hi, everyone. Thank you for joining us for the not by chance Podcast. I'm Dr. Tim, Thayne with Homeward Bound as well. And I have Dr. Tim Smith, the professor of counseling psychology from Brigham Young University here, on the podcast today, I'm really excited to have you Dr. Smith, and to hear hear you share some of the research results you've had regarding connection inside families, some of the research around physical health and connection, and also something about loneliness. And I think all of us, you know, have seen that in, in the society we live in, in our own families. And so looking forward to hearing some of the thoughts that you have, Dr. Smith, would you mind, just giving the audience a little bit of the background you have, before we jump into the topic of social connections? Sure,
Dr. Timmothy Smith:it's great to be with you and with your audience, I'm thrilled to be together. I think before we start, I just wanted to praise our listeners for listening. Thank you so much for making time to really strengthen your family and seek out resources and new ideas. And some of what we say is going to be helpful, but sometimes things that we say will actually trigger thoughts in you. And so as you listen today, just, you know, be open to whatever comes and hopefully we'll be able to add to the resources you have. I've been working with families and youth for over 20 years, it's been a joy to teach here at Brigham Young University, and in the counseling psychology department, and to train people basically to go out and then work with your children. And several of our graduates have worked in programs like those that your youth have been in. And so I'm very much connected to you and your interests and really want to be of use to you today.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's perfect. Yeah, so let's jump in now and tell us a little bit more about your background.
Dr. Timmothy Smith:I'm a psychologist, licensed psychologist, I also do quite a bit of research in mental health treatments, as well as as you've mentioned, issues of loneliness and social support connection. I personally prefer to look at the positive side. And more than the negative side, we hear a heck of a lot about the negative side in the media. But really, we're wired for connectivity neurologically, so our brains are very social. And so we need each other physiologically. We need each other, psychologically. And we also need each other at a heck of a lot of other levels. And some of those we'll be talking about today.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That's, that's absolutely true. We've, I think we've all experienced the lack of some of that during the pandemic, because we're, you know, trying to recover, I think emotionally, socially, in a lot of other ways, mentally, completely new, that experience and you know, it homeward bound. You know, I get a chance to talk to a lot of parents who are, who have teens in treatment, and they're looking to transition their son or daughter back home again. And so they'll tell me their story. And it's not the first time they've shared it. When they get to me, it's usually it's they become a professional sharing and summarizing the layers of of information about their child both. There may be diagnoses, but also the history. And without without fail, it seems at this point, every family will tell their story and they get to that point, you know, and 2020 in the early part of the year, they'll say and then COVID hit, and it's a period of time where they pivot and say, things were a little were struggling a little before that, but everything spiraled at that point, and it had a lot to do With, with going virtual with everything, not seeing people face to face, you know, going online a lot instead of in person. And so those connections were, were severed in some ways are certainly hampered. Oh,
Dr. Timmothy Smith:absolutely, we see it, the bears that you're speaking with, I've, in part of my work, I go out into the public schools and I'm there quite often, the rates of, you know, mental illness and distress and acting out, it's just increased markedly. And I was just talking with a high school principal, who was really lamenting this fact. But I've also, you know, we've all seen it, it's, it's everywhere,
Dr. Tim Thayne:yeah, you've done a lot of studying with with connection inside families. And, and ironically, you would think that with the, you know, with the pandemic, and, and doing school virtually, and kids staying home and parents working from home, you would think that the connections with inside the family would have been strengthened, but at least the families that I'm talking to, that have these mental health challenges, it's, it's almost, you know, consistent to hear that, that there was a lot of self isolating that started to happen, you know, when you've got anxiety and depression. And on top of that, you start your parents are saying, I need to, because they don't have these real time in person connections going on. They, they, they started to see that or believed that maybe more online connection would be would help with that. And instead, in many cases, it became the self isolating scenario, even inside the family unit. And so their connections were hurt during that time as well.
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Exactly. And so I guess message number one out of that is parents, please don't add additional guilt to yourself. From this, what you're experiencing other homes are also experiencing, yeah, it has been tough, and you see it, it is absolutely hurting you and it's hurting your child and you feel for them that way. But when we do not receive, you know, kind of adequate frequency of interaction, even even if the quality of interactions with the parents is fine, or if it's not harmful, it's not enough. And so yeah, these these youth would then seek it out online and not get it that way. And in fact, it could be worse because of social comparisons that people are constantly making. And let's be honest, the internet world that that youth are communicating with is not always pleasant. There are people kind of implicitly making snide remarks about other people, there's kind of some downward comparisons, there's just some negativity, you know, emotional negativity that they're also being exposed to. And so I guess, what we could say is the social media is like a tool, it can be used to connect in positive ways. It's great to connect with grandpa and grandma, who they never get to see otherwise. But there's kind of the dark side, you know, to any tool like a hammer, it can be used to build, construct, or it can be used to kill and it is a problem. This kind of online, social life that tends to downward spiral, many of us who are already vulnerable, exactly right.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yeah, I want to kind of move our conversation to maybe some solutions, maybe some research based solutions for parents to deepen their connections inside the family. What, how important is that? And what can we do as families to improve the connections with our kids?
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Well, that's awesome. There are many, many ways, okay, so anything that we say today is just going to spark your brainstorming? And so, ask your child is the answer. Tune into what they are already doing to connect with others and then join them where they are. So if they're connecting people over, you know, some type of hobby or game or whatever, you've got to become interested in that hobby and game because that's where they are in. So in essence, when in Rome do do as the Romans do, you've got to learn what their interests are, and have conversations about things that are interesting to them, and create topics of conversation that are mutually beneficial and reinforcing. So for instance, if they are on social media, get on social media, and if the child will allow, start to connect and see what message They're seeing and then you can kind of have conversations that go off of those. But please, never have those be evaluative conversations, have them be curious conversations like, oh, so what's happening? Oh, what do you think about that? Not kind of saying, Oh, well, so and so is doing this, you better stay away from so and so that's removed from the circle that they're in. And so you might want to use that to correct. And if you want to join, unfortunately, it's going to come across this way. Yeah, I don't actually want you in my social media circles anymore. And that's obvious, but we do need to say it. And so if you can find apps that you can do together deep games that you can do together. Activities in person, of course, that you can do together, boy, things are going to really start to turn around. One of the suggestions that I often give parents is people pick up on your body language, about how much you value them. So a research based way to start to boost your relationship is whenever you see them for the first time in a day or the first time after they are away from you make sure that that interaction is a super positive one, that you are enthusiastic, you're welcoming, you're excited to see them and you show it in your body language. Research shows that when you first engage with someone, the signal that you send immediately, that is going to kind of cue them about, well, where are we headed? For the next couple minutes here. And so even if you're on the computer, even if you're on the phone with someone else, and they walk in the door, you drop, whatever that is. And you just turn and you act like this is the best thing in the world. I'm so happy to see you how you doing? Hey, I'm on the phone. But hey, I'm looking forward to talking about and then you say something, just hold on just a second, I'll get right off. And then you're right with them. Okay, and you spend those first 510 minutes, however long they'll spend with you, you spend that time with you. At first they'll be like, What the heck is going on? They might miss trust it. But if you keep it up, right, and if you have actual things to talk about, it'll be a really a turning point in a relationship.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Oh, that is such good advice. I was I was with my daughter a couple days ago. And she's joined us as a mentor here at Homeward Bound for some of the youth that we work with. And she's she's new at this job. And obviously, as a mentor, what you're trying to do is you're trying to build a relationship of trust and create a connection. And you're doing it from kind of a cold stop, you know, so you got to get that rolling in. And I noticed I told her, you know, she had reached out to one of the young women that she's going to mentor and texted and it was, it was an okay text. But it did not convey this excitement that you're talking about. Like I can't wait to meet you. I'm looking forward to getting to know you better. And so I mentioned that tour. And this girl that she was trying to connect with had not responded to her first text, two or three days earlier. I said, Let's try it again this time. And this time, I would like you to put everything into this text that would convey this excitement about meeting and connecting, and getting to know her and your curiosity about her. And so she did. And it was so interesting to watch. The response was within 30 seconds of that text, this girl made first contact with my daughter. And so you're, you're teaching us this principle that is so true. You know, and it's so hard for parents to do that, because it's not a new relationship. It is there's old patterns, there's patterns of maybe business as usual, you know, taking care of a lot of things that's on your plate. But what you're saying is help them know they are number one on the list of things and that there is still excitement. There's still interest there's curiosity. And like you said they probably will go What happened to my my mom or my dad here, but but that's got to feel good. And I recently went on a on a campout not really a camp out it was kind of a nice into a cabin, but with a bunch of young men, about 1618 years old, and my son is one of them. And I made it I was I was trying to connect with all these young men. And I noticed that I had upped my game for all of these young men, and it made me feel guilty about what I hadn't been doing with my own Son, because it kind of paled in comparison. Like I wasn't stepping up for him. Like I was for these, these other young men. It was quite sad.
Dr. Timmothy Smith:But you're learning from it right? And so that's the key. Yeah, but But you know, Tim, what we're talking about here is we all do this as parents, meaning comfort is actually the enemy of our quality relationships. And we just have to recognize that we have to acknowledge that the comfortable way is the way we have been doing it, which is not how we want to do it again. Yeah, which means necessarily, that anything I do from this point has to be a little bit more uncomfortable. Meaning different, that's all it means, you know, doesn't mean painful, it means different. I'm just gonna try things in a different way. So what you did with these youth in the cabin, right? Was you're a little bit more your your funds dive, you know, you're connecting. And by golly, isn't that what we wanted? As kids? You know, I mean, what our parents were just totally serious. Okay, we understand. But when our parents were fun, and when they were really with us? Didn't that feel good? And isn't that what our children actually you're in foreign watch? Right?
Dr. Tim Thayne:Absolutely. So that's something they can anybody can do. You know, just make that decision and decide that you're going to intentionally be fun, you're going to intentionally treat them like a guest, or a new person in your life, and that you're excited about and and you can really get into that. And so I love that suggestion. You know, the, the old patterns of, you know, you mentioned earlier, that when we're engaging on social media, or whatever it is with them, that we stay out of the judgmental realm or the evaluative realm of that. So can you give, give the audience a little more, some any suggestions about how they can do that? Because that's super hard to do. Again, an old pattern is to constantly be correcting or teaching or lecturing or evaluating what what would you say to the parents that, that would like to do that, but they realize how hard that is,
Dr. Timmothy Smith:we all want to do that, meaning our kids are having struggles. And so it's so obvious to us what needs to happen. We can see solutions, and we can see where they need to go. And so those things come to us so quickly, right? But we can kind of have a little empathy and say, okay, if I'm like in a work setting, and my boss or supervisor is constantly telling me what I need to do, how am I going to feel about that? Am I going to enjoy going to work, I'm constantly being corrected and told that I need to do things differently. So we could have a little bit of empathy, you know, with that, and number one, just recognize the desire is good. We do want to benefit we do want to bless, strengthen uplift our children, and that is awesome. And oftentimes, number two, the best way to do that is indirectly rather than directly I don't know how many times you've changed your life because someone told you to change your life. At least for me, you very rarely I often tend to change my life when I want to change my life when I find kind of joyous reasons to do that. And so really what we're trying to do is motivate the positive desires that are already innate within our kids. And it's not by telling and so to recognize number one, the desires are good, I do want them to change that's good. But how I'm gonna get there number two, is not through direct telling at this at this point. Meaning young children they do need to be told yes this is how you do things this is how you do think okay at this point the children know it you know if they're Dean's they've heard it enough.
Dr. Tim Thayne:I like that a lot. It reminds me of when I was getting my master's degree in marriage and family therapy and and we had a new professor move in and come to BYU and and she brought with her this idea of the call it the reflecting team. I don't know if you have heard about that Milan therapy technique, where basically they'd have and then when you're in training as a therapist, you you get the opportunity to watch your colleagues, your your peers do therapy, and we're pretty rough at that stage. But we'd sit behind the one way mirror and watch. And and what she brought to the table was this idea of, of helping people over here something less direct in terms of suggestions or ideas, but just over here and let them just have the space and ability to pick and choose what they want from this conversation between us. And so I remember sitting in a room, one of the first couples I ever did therapy with, and we got to about halfway through and I get the knock on the door from this professor. And she said, Would you mind changing places with us, and you and the couple sit back here behind one way mirror and, and me and your classmates will sit in the room, and we'll just reflect on what we've seen? Questions we have, and we really don't know the answers, and maybe there'll be some things that they'll pick out of this. And it was really quite amazing to watch them. Just watch this and say that is that that's something I'm going to attend to, I agree with that or I that gives me an idea. And so that indirect idea is, is true everywhere, but probably especially with our own kids, where they get a little death to the constant direction and, you know, efforts of parents to try and guide them and direct them. I'm sure that that's a really powerful concept for for us parents.
Dr. Timmothy Smith:It is and we can and that's a beautiful example, you know, what you what you've shared, the, our children or youth who have been in treatment programs have experienced basically what that couple experience, they've experienced an over listening environment for weeks on end, sometimes longer on site, and they have had an opportunity to share and to listen, and to listen and to share. And people have listened to them quite a bit. And so they're used to that, being able to express themselves in an environment where what they say isn't evaluated. Hmm. And now they're coming home. And so in essence, they were used to being able to say whatever they wanted in a nun evaluated way, and and if we can kind of ease into that, where we over listen, you know, as you're saying, even though it doesn't feel right, you know, like, Why in the world, are you saying that, please, we're gonna bite our tongues, we're going to over Listen, we're going to observe, and that helps. Now, after making that conclusion, I recognize that some of your listeners are exactly kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum of what we've been talking where they actually were already listening quite a bit. And so for a few of those listeners, you're saying, but I've done that, I've been listening, I've been listening, we're just recognize the different parents, you're in different places. So some of what we say today may apply to you some of what we say may apply to others. If you've already been listening, then finding ways to kind of take the principle of what we're saying, what's the next indirect for this child, if you've already got the listening down? What is the message that their core being needs next? If you've already been like a listening source, maybe even yours, what do they need now? Maybe they need a champion. Maybe they need someone to stand up on their behalf and say, I've got your back. This will tell you, they'll tell you what they need,
Dr. Tim Thayne:or what a great thing and I kind of like this to be maybe our last little topic here today. Because you're making me think about this balancing act that parents because there are those parents out there that have done a lot of listening, and a lot of facilitating and and you know, kind of heavy on the connection side. And maybe light on the leadership structure side? And can you talk a little bit about those two principles in tandem with each other? Because there really is a different people are at different places here. Some have focused really mostly on connection and maybe not as much on boundaries, for example, or expectation setting. What would you say about that balance between those, those different principles?
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Metaphor comes to mind I have a friend who is Lakota Native American who basically said, you know, a lot of times we adults tend to talk to each other face to face in kind of North American society. But he said in growing up, what I found most helpful, is when we actually stand side by side Time. And we look out at the same panorama so that we can see the same perspective together. And then we walk together. As we talk. To me that metaphor kind of puts in balance, what you're trying to say, meaning, we do need to listen. But we need to listen from the perspective of the people that we're hearing meeting, looking at it the same way that they're looking. But then we don't just listen, we actually walk we go to places together. And so children need the listening, but they also need the going, they need the walking with, how are we going to do this together? You know, in terms of relapse prevention, I'm with you. And so what does this mean? Where do you want us to go, here's where I think we can go together, let's get there together. And so now you're on a journey that is in essence bound, you're, you're committing to one another, I'm in this with you. And so they feel both the leadership and the, I need you, meaning I'm not going to be the one who's the sole leader, we are we are undertaking this journey together. But we are moving.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Yeah. And that leadership kind of moves more and more and more to the, to the teen and young adult as they get to that point. And, and and that partnership stays in intact. But that kind of that focus of central part of who's leading over time shifts over to this, this partner, this other person, this young person trying to get there? Well, I think our think our audiences a lot to think about from this discussion and, and I'd like them to think about each one of their, their children. And maybe each needs a little bit something different. But these principles apply universally, you know, I can imagine just with my own kids, as you've talked about connecting, going, where they're at getting developing an interest in things they're interested in, they're all different. So that means there's a variety of things I need to develop a genuine interest in. So that I can I can meet them where they're at. And so it's an individual, you know, looking at each one of them individually, and, and helping figure out the best way to show them that love and that interest and that curiosity and engagement. Is there any one last thing you'd like to tell our audiences before we we end our podcast today?
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Thank you, maybe this, oftentimes in treatment, youth come in touch with their emotions. And they learn that emotional expression is can be positive when then appropriately boundaried. As you're saying that out of control emotions, that boundary emotional expression. And so if we could kind of model that as well, in our home, it's okay, that we as parents have emotions. And part of being a human is to be vulnerable with our emotions. And to say, you know, when you're gone, I was missing you. And I was wondering, and I was curious, but you know, I am a little nervous, because I just want to be better for you. You know, now that you're back, and whatever other emotions they have, to not, try and control our own emotions so much, that we don't actually connect with our children, who are sometimes in an emotional mess. And so if we can model that, I have emotions, my emotions are part of me. I can manage them, and I can share them. I can connect with you wherever you're at. Because I also have my own messes. But we are together in this process. I think, I think there's kind of a depths we can say that we love which is beautiful. Please do let's say that more often, right? But when we look into someone's eyes and say, you know, I've been hurting with you. You're saying I love you in a way that may actually reach them more. Because you've revealed a different emotion. That's wonderful.
Dr. Tim Thayne:That That is fantastic. And what a wonderful thing to end with there. And well, well thank you, Dr. Smith. We appreciate so much your time and your thoughts and I'm confident that so many of our parents have connected with what you've shared today. And that it will it will benefit them and their families. So thank you for your time and your your knowledge
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Thank you just we are all in this together. The whole reason why we're all doing this is because of that love that we were just talking about. And so just know you're absolutely not alone. There's abundant resources available. And we're sending all of our support. Keep at it.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Wonderful. Well, thanks so much and we will be in touch with you in the future, I'm sure.
Dr. Timmothy Smith:Thank you so much. Take care.
Dr. Tim Thayne:Take care. Parents, your time is valuable, and I'm grateful you spent some of it with us. What you're intentionally doing in your home life is inspiring and unmatched in its importance and long term effects. Ask yourself, What am I going to do because of what I've learned today?