Election Reactions

Ian and Jim have a raw and difficult discussion about America's election results. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

A very warm welcome to all of you to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm here with the interesting Jiv Benning.

SPEAKER_02: 0:28

Hello, Ian Wilkes. I don't know how interesting I am in the wake of this election,

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

but we'll find out, won't we? Yes, we will. And you are, without a doubt, one of the most interesting individuals I've ever met. And so I want to get straight into this. So we did a podcast last week on the... It was a conversation, a very interesting conversation, about the pre-election... activities and political events before what we now know as Donald Trump, who has now been elected to be the 47th president of the United States of America. And that was a very lively conversation. We even had the gutsiness to make a prediction. I predicted Harris was four to five points ahead and that she would win, and I think you made a similar prediction, if I'm not mistaken. What was your prediction? Let's remind the listeners. Oh, I predicted that Harris would

SPEAKER_02: 1:29

win. I don't remember the spread. It was probably similar or maybe even identical to that because that's what I thought. I thought Harris was going to win the popular vote. She would eke out a solid victory in the swing states. And I thought actually that there were what they call shy Harris supporters. In 2016 and in 2020, pollsters underestimated the amount of Trump support significantly. And all the reports I'd heard was that pollsters were shifting that to the point where they were oversampling Trump supporters... And so I sort of bought into some of that logic. Turns out that not only were they still under sampling Trump supporters, they did so on a scale even larger than those two elections. This is the first time Trump has won the popular vote. Trump lost the popular vote the first two times. And he swept every swing state by large margins. So this was not a close election.

SPEAKER_01: 2:49

No, he won convincingly. And that last point, he won all the swing states, including the last one to come in, which I think was Arizona. So a significant lean towards Trump, which we want to get into. So last week, we had this lively conversation about politics and religion. And we remind that our listeners, not that they need reminding, but anyone joining Inside Out for the first time, Inside Out is a religious podcast focused on reviewing the strengths and weaknesses of the Mormon faith, which Jim is still a member of very much, and I'm not. I resigned a few years ago. We have this yin-yang, if you like, this balanced perspective, or try to reach a balance in terms of looking at the qualities of the church, and there are many We also look at some of the issues and problems with the church as well. So, yes, we are a religious Mormon faith-focused podcast, but the politics plays very strongly into the religious organization. And I want to get into some of the Utah politics in respect to this election. So, last week we had this conversation. It was very lively. It was before the election. A lot has happened, Jim, in the last week or so, which has... extremely significant. And I want to go into the conversation here now for a few minutes and provide what I think is a balanced perspective and actually be so bold, hopefully not arrogant, but be so audacious as to share the reasons why at least I think Trump won. And I think he won in some ways, some measures for understandable reasons, and I want to get into that. So we made these predictions last week. You and I were completely wrong. We're not alone in being wrong in making those predictions. It appears that most of the Americans are in favor of voting in a convicted felon over a Democrat woman of color. And I think I may know some of the reasons, not all of them, but some of the reasons why. So on the last conversation that we had last week, one of the items I flagged up was the disconnection that I think people in America, and it's not exclusive to America, not unique to America, are disillusioned with modern Western politics. We've seen this in a big way in the UK. A lot of disillusionment and lack of confidence from the British public in the British political system, even now since Labour won this big landslide in the UK. And UK politics today plays, has very little significance now, I think, on the global stage post-Brexit. Since Britain left Europe, its influence on the world stage, geopolitical and economic, has lessened somewhat significantly. The British politics may disagree with that, but I think that's based on realities of economics. America, is a massive place, a superpower, and it's the biggest player on the geopolitics stage and on the geoeconomic stage, for sure. And we said last week, what happens in America impacts not just Americans, but the rest of the world. And across a number of different fronts, the economy, geopolitics, foreign policy, foreign trade, immigration, these are health, education, these are big issues affecting Americans domestically. And these policies impact global policies of very established institutions like United Nations and NATO, of course. And so since the election, I was very disappointed. I was actually shocked and quite dismayed, frankly, even though I'm not an American, at the result of the election where Trump, across all fronts, had a convincing win. There's no doubt. And so the Americans, most of the Americans chose him for a reason. I've been trying to think, rack my brains as to why they would want Trump in power. And I think I've got some pretty good reasons why they've done this. I think that the reasons why the folks who were disappointed, who didn't vote for him, those fears are still in place, still there. You, somebody who would vote Democrat in this last election, carry quite a few, a lot of concerns, a lot of fears for what's going to happen over the next four years under a Trump administration. I think those concerns and worries are well-founded. But as I say, I was thinking about why did most of the Americans vote for Trump? And here's what I think are the reasons. And I think these, to give this conversation a balanced perspective, and obviously not trying to be one-sided here, because we both wanted the Democrats to win, but I want to look at it from the Trump supporters' side. I think there are some, actually, advantages and positive things as to why Trump would win, and I welcome your pushback and look forward to your comments on this. And I also want to just say one other thing as well. There is a very important relationship in this conversation between Trump being elected and the Mormon Church. If you look at the All the red counties in the Utah map, which I screenshot and send it to you, most of the counties in the areas in Utah and around Salt Lake were red, Provo included. I think Salt Lake, downtown Salt Lake, or the inner downtown Salt Lake area city was blue. But looking at that map, it appears, and I'd like to jump in on this before I continue, it appears that certainly in the Salt Lake area, and the greater Salt Lake area, and you can speak to that more than I can, it appears that, and maybe perhaps beyond, if you speak to the Utah side as well, it appears that most people, and please correct me if I'm wrong, voted for Trump or were their county, their region, their area was red. And apart from a few blue areas, most people in Utah voted for Trump. Is that a fair or accurate or inaccurate assessment?

SPEAKER_02: 9:35

It's accurate. One of the interesting things about the numbers in Utah is that there were only two states throughout the entire country that voted less for Trump this time than they did previously. One was the state of Washington and the other was the state of Utah. So even though Utah went for Trump and went for Trump decisively, it was actually by a than in previous elections.

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

Right. Just looking at the map here, again, I think my statement is pretty reliable. Most of the areas around Utah, certainly in Salt Lake, appear to be Trump supporters, Trump areas. So, overall, Utah voted for Donald Trump, the convicted felon. Okay, now, We could spend all day talking about the weaknesses and the threats and problems with Trump. We spend all week. I mean, it's just endless series of train wrecks in terms of his values and standards. But on the upside, going back to what we discussed last week, I believe, because I can relate to this, that people did not want to have the same establishment, the same old politics in place. There's an echo, Jim. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you fine. It bounced back for a second there. I'll just pause. I believe that a lot of Americans are just fed up with the traditional established bureaucracy of the old fashioned political system. That's what I think. If you look at Kamala Harris, pre-election, during the vice presidency, during the campaign, and you listen to many of her interviews and conversations, and I've listened to a few, to me, they are, it's like word salad. There's no substance. It's just like filler. There's no specific substance, often on immigration or foreign policy. I've listened to the interviews. Not all of them, many of the conversations, and she's just empty, lack of substance, and just fillers, and missed opportunities to talk about specifics, even headlines of specific policies. Often, it's just not there. Second point, she had the opportunity of going on to podcasts. and having lengthy conversations and opportunities to get into real policies. For example, if you look at Joe Rogan, and I've only listened to Joe Rogan a couple of times, I don't know a great deal about him, but he's one of the biggest podcasts in the United States. Trump went on to Joe Rogan and had a conversation for three hours. And whether you like him or hate him, He was on that podcast for three hours talking about stuff, all kinds of policies, immigration, some foreign policy. A lot of it is crap, in my opinion, but some of it have substance, like immigration and the economy, or at least what he was trying to say to protect the American jobs and protect the American economy, even though some of his policies may not be thoroughly thrashed out and thought through properly. Nevertheless, he went on for three hours And in three hours, and by the way, Elon Musk quoted this. I mentioned this actually on one of his podcasts. He said that after three hours of listening to someone like Trump, if you're not decided and you listen to Trump, you might agree with him on some things and disagree with him on other things. It matters, but you get to know someone in three hours on the podcast. You can't hide a three-hour conversation on the podcast. You can go on there. You can talk. You can talk crap. You could talk good stuff. You could talk crap stuff. But three hours is a long time which helps people make up their mind. And Elon Musk was saying that that's one of the reasons, one of many, why people had made the decision about Trump, for or against, that he went onto the podcast, not just that one, and had these long conversations. And that is where Elon Musk said, that's where you can get to know people, get to know the position and their policies. Harris was invited and had the opportunity to go on the podcast and talk about substance, and she didn't. She had these short, empty, salad-filler-type interviews and conversations, in part, at least some of them, because I've heard them, and that was one of the main reasons why people were able to make a decision on Trump, either for or against. And I think that's... When I researched that, and when I listened to that and heard Elon Musk's comments on that, Because he brought that point up. I thought that was very interesting. The other thing as well, which I think requires perspective, and I think is important, is that a Trump presidency, from the perspective of the world, is a scary proposition. They don't know. He's unpredictable, this Trump. And we are living in a world of increasing risks and threats. from dictators, despots, and people who don't value life. They don't value democracy. They have no values, rental values. We have countries invading other countries. We have China looking at Taiwan. We have Russia making progress now in Ukraine. And we've discussed last week on the podcast, increasing level of instability and uncertainty across the geopolitics stage. Trump is seen as an unpredictable character. He's even threatened to blast Iran into smithereens. And it appears, by the way, if the media reports are to be relied on, that a number of Iranian individuals have been arrested who sounds like, if the media is correct, and it might not be correct, were behind the attempted assassination of Donald Trump. I don't know how reliable that is. But if Iran, if Tehran is behind that, then that is a real problem, I think, for Tehran and for Iran, who's a sponsor of terrorism. And I think the quality, if you use that word with Trump, those two words don't often go together, but Trump is seen as unpredictable, an uncertain figure, and somebody who would be willing to take action And actually, it is unpredictability and uncertainty and instability in being unhinged could and potentially could feed into some form or type of deterrence. And I think there's some merit to that. I think that needs to be understood in measure. But I think there's some merit to America's enemies and the Western allies' enemies where you've got Trump, who's a character who you don't know what he's going to do from one minute to the next. who's not into details, who is prepared to make very bold statements, and even his behaving language, and I think this has been the case to an extent, where he is a deterrent to at least have countries question or second guess or even pause in the event that Trump would act decisively on a fairly major scale, which I think he would against Iran. And I think that that is a deterrent. In respect to foreign policy on Ukraine, and we're getting some information coming through the different channels, it appears that Trump is now focused on, in regards to solving the Russia-Ukraine conflict, that his messages to Ukraine are, look, let's focus on peace, And you need to think realistically about relinquishing or giving up around 20% of your sovereign land territory and negotiating that in the formula with Russia in return for security commitments. and in return for other measures to reach a peaceful resolution with Russia. I think that's the position of the Trump administration. He said he could fix the Ukraine-Russia conflict in 24 hours, in one day. And I think what he's going to do is going to meet Putin, or at least have a conversation with Putin, put together a framework for an agreement, And that will undoubtedly, I think, mean that Ukraine gives up 15, 20% of its land. The problem with that is that that will embolden Putin. Putin will be rubbing his hands. He'll see that as a, that will be a major victory for the Russian invasion. It will bolster him domestically as a success, but it also emboldens Putin to go after Moldova and actually look at his other expansion initiatives, to strike at his special military operations in other parts of Europe because he sees Trump as a potential ally. That's a problem for Europe. Trump has also indicated his lack of interest in NATO. He wants Europe to step up, which I think is, financially, which I think is important. Europe is committed to, I think, spending 2% of its GDP on NATO, which is a fairly small amount, in my opinion. And so I think he's going to step back from NATO and I think Europe's going to have to step up and fill the gap in regards to Ukraine. Alternatively, Russia will just continue to encroach and move forward, and there'll be other future conflicts into Europe, and I think that's going to be a major problem. Trump has indicated often his lack of interest and confidence and trust in the established institutions like the United Nations and NATO, which is a real worry. And so I think we're going to see the fragmentation of NATO, fragmentation of the United Nations, America focusing on itself, not funding or being part of international wars, which I think the American people don't want. I think that's one of the reasons why Americans vote for Trump. They don't want to get international wars. They don't want to continue to support Ukraine with billions of dollars. They don't want to fund most of NATO. And I get that. That makes sense. These are not all, but some of the reasons why I think Trump got into power. America first, America first, America first. Also, putting up the wall with Mexico, I think there's a huge vote of no confidence in the Democrats in respect to what they've done, or at least the perceived understanding from the Americans of the lack of leadership and direction and strength and solution to dealing with the immigration problem along the southern border. They may be right, they may be wrong, but I think that's the perception. And they see Trump as a hardliner. I mean, Trump said he's going to round up all the illegal immigrants and asylum seekers, and he's going to deport them all. He said that. And I think the Americans, most of the Americans want that. They see that these individuals, illegal immigrants, are taking over the country, and they see what's happening in the UK, etc. And these are, I think... legitimate reasons why a lot of Americans voted for Trump. We can argue details and policies, but they were his promises. They were his commitments. They were headline commitments. There were specific areas. There were the details. But I've been thinking, I've been trying to figure out why would anyone vote for Donald Trump? And I can think of many, many reasons why they wouldn't. but I can think of a few why they would, and I've tried to capture those or communicate those in this conversation. So they're my introductory headliners as to why I think Trump got into power. I think there's some positive elements to why, you know, in respect to some of the benefits or advantages for having a Trump administration in terms of deterrent. But I think when it comes down to it, I think they're going to be... Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02: 23:05

because I want to be your friend at the end of this podcast. And it's possible that that might not happen if I vent the kind of frustration and anger that I'm feeling and have felt since election night. One of the things that I find so frustrating about everything you've just outlined is that you and so many in the world are treating this as if it is normal, as if it is acceptable, as if it is in any way appropriate to hand the reins of power back to a man who tried to overthrow the Constitution of the United States and hang his own vice president. And set aside that he's a rapist, set aside that he's a convicted felon, this is a man who deliberately violated the oath of office that he took in an attempt to overthrow the government. And we are now moving into a place where, well, that's just acceptable, and let's see why we chose that and why we didn't choose reality and decency. My opposition to Donald Trump has never been political. In fact, when Donald Trump got the nomination, I was very much a conservative Republican, had been for most of my life, and I still believe the things that I believed when I was a Republican. The Republican Party no longer believed those things. The Republican Party no longer believes in free markets. They no longer believe in fiscal responsibility. They no longer believe in limited government. And on and on and on. Because what the Republican Party now believes is whatever Donald Trump wants, Donald Trump should get. But regardless of all of that, the thing that... that this election has broken, both nationally and internally for me as a human being, is the importance of a common reality, the importance of a common shared set of facts. You talk about Donald Trump going on Joe Rogan. And he spent all of the time on Joe Rogan talking about the fact that immigrants are slaughtering people. They've taken over all of the five-star hotels in the country, and they're eating the dogs and cats. We know that. And they've taken over 100% of all of the jobs that were created in the Biden administration. And none of those things are true. And yet, this is the reality that Trump, and when Trump is confronted on these things, Trump comes back and doubles down on lies. I mean, it's happened since he came down the elevator in 2015. I remember one of the first things he said in one of his first interviews was how disgusted he was that after 9-11, he saw all of these Muslims on top of skyscrapers in New Jersey dancing. and celebrating that the towers had fallen. And when it was pointed out to him that that did not happen, there is absolutely no evidence that it happened. There would have been tremendous outrage if it had. But when presented with the reality, Trump continued to push the fantasy. And he has continued to do that to the point now where we are siloed in two different, entirely different realities. Right now, the objective facts in the real reality, at least the one I live in, is that unemployment right now is at record lows in the United States. Inflation, which was a worldwide problem after the pandemic for obvious reasons, has come down faster in the United States than anywhere else in the world and is now within the Central Reserve's target range. It's between 2% and 3%, which is where it was throughout the entire Trump administration. The stock market is at a record high. The economic data right now is wonderful. And right before and throughout this election, Donald Trump went out and said, we are the garbage can of the world. And he talked about the fact that bacon is five times more expensive than it used to be, and it isn't. And I mean, just going through economic data to lay out this hellscape of what America is. And I, in reality, where I could actually look at numbers and say, that is not true, I'm supposed to accept, oh, okay, well, this is sort of a different point of view. Well, I can see why you'd see that. And I've reached the point where I refuse to engage with Trumpers. It's not that I want them shot or I want them jailed or I want to hurt them, but when you don't share a common set of facts, you cannot have any kind of a productive discussion because anytime you have a discussion with Trump or with Trumpers, Unless Trump is talking to a sympathetic audience, which increasingly that's all he would do. I mean, he went on Joe Rogan and he talked to Elon Musk and he talked to people who share his fantasies or share his delusions or at least enable them. They certainly don't push back on them. Rogan actually did in a couple of places, but it didn't matter because Trump when he's confronted with the fact that he's lying or that he's making something up, I don't think he knows the difference at this point. I think he creates this fantasy and he has enough power and he has enough sycophants that people are willing to accept it and he moves on. So there's no way to really challenge him on anything. He still hasn't said he lost the 2020 election, which he objectively did. But so now what we've done is say, Alternate reality is just as good as reality reality. And we just have to accept all of the lies, all of the fantasies, all of the delusions of Trump and his supporters, and just sort of go, okay, well, agree to disagree. You know, it's like if you've seen the movie Anchorman, when Ron Burgundy, the Will Ferrell character, is talking to I think it's their names, the married with children actress, whatever her name was. He's sitting there talking to his girlfriend and he says that the name San Diego means a whale's vagina. And she says, no, San Diego means St. Diego. It's Spanish for St. Diego. And he looks at her and says, agree to disagree. That's where we are as a nation. That's where we are as a world now, because Donald Trump is now the most powerful man in the world, or he will be as of January 20th of next year. And we have to accommodate somebody who has destroyed all constitutional norms, still isn't willing to concede that he lost in 2020, tried to overthrow the government, tried to hang his own vice president, and suffers absolutely no consequence for it, And off we go. And everybody that agrees with that and everybody believes in that and everybody that believes in every lie that Donald Trump is telling them, we have to respect those lies as if they are true. And we have to say, oh, okay, well, you know, let's find common ground with fantasy. Let's find common ground with delusion. And I'm not willing to do that. And again, this is not a political podcast. This is a church podcast. So let me tell you where I am religiously on this. This is arguably, not arguably, I don't need to argue about it. This is the largest crisis of faith that I have had since 2015 when I came very, very close to leaving the church over the policy of exclusion. and received what I consider to be very strong personal revelation that I needed to stay. I am now looking at my co-religionists, my fellow members in the pews, sitting there with them and going, you all voted for fascism because that's what this is. This is not legitimate. I mean, when you start talking about Putin, and say, gosh, this will embolden Putin. Damn right it will embolden Putin. Have we not learned anything from history? When we decided, okay, the way to peace in World War II is to let Hitler take Poland, and then he'll leave it at that. He didn't leave it at that, and the entire world burned until we were able to make up for our mistake when Neville Chamberlain, who gave us peace in our time, waived an agreement that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on with Hitler and told everybody to go home and have a nice, quiet sleep. This is what Donald Trump is going to do. When I talk about Donald Trump as Hitler to people, they go, well, he's not going to round up all these Jews and put them in concentration camps. No, he doesn't have to. He's got a Hitler in the wings named Vladimir Putin who will be more than happy to do that for him. All Donald Trump has to do is get out of the way. And Donald Trump is talking about pulling us out of NATO, which is the most successful military alliance in the history of the world and has preserved the peace for over 70 years, for over 80 years. And we're now talking about, okay, well, maybe dismantling that, that's an acceptable thing. point of view. Let's try it. It's unpredictable. Let's see what happens. I can tell you what's going to happen. What's going to happen is that Vladimir Putin has already demonstrated he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union, recapture all of the territories that declared independence from Russia when the Soviet Union fell. And who's to say he's going to stop there? If I were living in Poland right now, Let alone Ukraine. I mean, we're essentially saying, oh, geez, yeah. I mean, 20%? You think he's going to stop at 20%? You think he's going to be satisfied with that? What's his incentive to stop? Donald Trump isn't going to get in his way. America's not going to get in his way. NATO's going to be dissolved. And so who's going to stop? Who's going to be a check on Russian expansionism? And it doesn't stop with Russia. China... We'll just roll over Taiwan knowing that Donald Trump, who wants peace in our time... I mean, all of the MAGAs were saying, jeez, no new wars under Donald Trump. Why are we all living under a rock? Why are we all pretending history never happened? Why are we all pretending that fascism is something that could only happen if you have a weird little Charlie Chaplin mustache? It is... absolutely terrified what we're talking about, particularly internationally. And domestically, when you start talking about what Donald Trump wants to do with immigrants, because no, Donald Trump is not going to round up Jews and put them in concentration camps. He's got different vermin who are poisoning the blood of the country with their bad genes. I mean, that's Nazi language. And Hitler used it to describe the Jews as Trump uses it to describe immigrants. And, okay, we're going to round up all of these immigrants? Rounding up the number of people Donald Trump wants to round up. We're talking about 15 million people, many of whom have been here for decades and have children and grandchildren who are citizens of the United States by the result of the 14th Amendment and the fact that they were born here. They're going to have their birthright citizenship revoked. And these people are going to round up 15 million people. Project 2025 describes the internment camps, the concentration camps. Concentration camp does not mean you put somebody in an oven necessarily. It means you concentrate a large number of people in a very small area. And in order to get rid of 15 million people, you have to concentrate them in these camps to port them Rip aside families. The social economic devastation we're talking about is incalculable. And we're talking about it as if it's, well, jeez, what should the minimum wage be?$750 or$725? We're talking about it as if it's a legitimate policy disagreement and we just have to roll with the punches. We decided as a nation this last Tuesday, that we want autocracy, and we want totalitarianism, and we don't want constitutional protections. We don't hold anyone accountable who tried to overthrow the constitutional protections. Latter-day Saints, we're the ones who have this fantasy that we're going to save the Constitution as it hangs by a thread, and we're the ones that last Tuesday, 70% of us or so, We got the scissors and we started cutting. What we are seeing now is an experiment with fascism. There is no other word for it. There is no other description of it. And even those... You talk to people who are willing to concede that. You point out you can't say we're poisoning the blood of the country and not be a fascist. You can't say, hey, Putin, go ahead... and run wild wherever you want to and not be a fascist. And the reaction is, well, okay, yes, but keep in mind that Donald Trump is stupid. And keep in mind that Donald Trump is incompetent. So you don't really have to worry because he'll never be able to do it. And that's what a lot of people say about January 6th. Well, yes, he tried to overthrow the government, but he didn't. And I'm saying, so I'm supposed to take comfort that the coup, the attempt to end the Constitution, shouldn't be concerning because the people who did it were incompetent? And you think that there were other people around Donald Trump? I mean, the people that surround Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, for instance. J.D. Vance is not Mike Pence. Mike Pence stood up for the Constitution probably for the last time. J.D. Vance is advancing Project 2025. There are some very smart people who are more than willing to use an imbecile like Donald Trump to advance their agendas, and they're not necessarily incompetent. They're terrifying. I look at Stephen Miller, who screamed America for Americans only at Trump's Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden. which echoed Germany for Germans only, which was a rallying cry under Adolf Hitler. And this is a man who knows what he wants to do and knows how to do it, and now will have the full force of the American government to make it happen. So when we sit here and we go, okay, some of these policies will be good, and some of these policies will be bad, and jeez, This is the American people, and here's why Kamala lost. Boy, she just really wasn't that smart, or this, or she should have gone on more podcasts. And the world is burning, and the Constitution is over. I just, it is infuriating me, because I just think there is no possible way to have a conversation about We're not acknowledging reality. If we can't say what we just chose was fascism, then there really isn't any point in rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. There just isn't. And to sit here and pretend that America is the same and that this is within the boundaries of things that America has done before and that it's possible that... Few things will be bumpy here and there, but we'll just be fine. I just, I can't do that. And I, so, uh, I, the, the idea that I am going to go sit in the pews next to people who chose this and deliberately chose this. And, you know, you continually talk about, okay, this is the only true church. Don't we have a responsibility as the only true church? To stand apart, to stand above, to lead out? Well, I would say, we're the people with the gift of the Holy Ghost. Isn't that what we tell every eight-year-old child? That they have some kind of privileged access to the Spirit of God that gives them the ability to discern right from wrong, good from evil, truth from error. By the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things. We're that people and we have looked at evil and said, this is good. 70% of us in the United States said, this is good. This is what we want. This is what we embrace. It is very, very hard for me to just go on and pretend that that's okay. And to just go and sit in the pews next to people who don't have just swallowed millions of Ukrainians to their deaths and have just said, I can't wait till 15 million people in this country are in concentration camps. That's going to be great. I can't just act like this is normal, this is acceptable. I can just go along with this and gosh, let's just agree to disagree, okay? Let's just everybody get along. I can't do that. Now I went to tab choir rehearsal this last Thursday and I am debating how much to talk about that experience because on this occasion, one of the things I had posted on social media, which I've since taken down was how worried I was that, um, Tabernacle Choir would be invited to return for Trump's second inauguration and sing for his inauguration the way they did for his first inauguration, which, as we've talked about many times, was a huge black eye for the church. And I just said, I'm dreading that. And in the course of this, I ended up, I'm going to be very vague because I don't want to betray any confidences. But I ended up having a lovely and productive discussion about this that has sort of assuaged my fears on it. And also given me the... As I sat there in rehearsal and listened to the music, I said, okay, I don't know how all of these people voted. I assume they probably voted along the same lines as the rest of the church. I know that there are many... members of the Tabernacle Choir who have quietly reached out to me, who agree with me about the dangers of Donald Trump. And there are enough of them in there that I don't feel like I have to resign from the choir in disgust and in anger. And the choir gives me a direct connection to God that right now, particularly, I desperately, desperately need. So I have made the decision I'm not going to resign from the choir. And as much as I am frustrated with the church, I am not going to resign from the church. We don't have to change the name of the podcast. It can still be Inside Out. I'm still going to be on the inside. But something has died inside me. My faith in my fellow church members is all but gone. It's never, ever come back to me, church. and tell me that we're better than anybody else, that we have any kind of greater insight into the spirit or into the workings of the mind of the Lord, when 70% of us chose fascism with our eyes wide open. I mean, I'm going to stay here because I still feel like this is where God wants me, and I can feel, particularly through the choir, a connection to the divine that I need and that strengthens me, and I'm not willing to give that up to the fascists, no matter where they are. But I just, this is where I am. I'm in an admittedly very, very dark place, but I'm not in a place where I can dispassionately just sort of weigh the pros and cons politically of what the fascists are going to do. And gosh, maybe they'll do some good things. But even if none of the nightmare scenarios that I'm envisioning come to pass, if somehow Putin is contained, somehow Ukraine is saved, somehow none of the concentration camps materialize, what Trump has done to this nation by... just by being elected after everything we know about him was public, after the entire nation saw him try to overthrow the government and said, here, you tried to steal the car, here are the keys. It's yours. The decency, the character, The integrity of the United States of America is forever compromised. And, you know, one of the reasons I was so confident that Kamala Harris would win was that we're better than this. We are better than the fascists. And it turns out we're not. It turns out this is what we want. This is what we chose. And I mean, you can go up and down and sideways about Kamala. I actually think she was a much better candidate than you do. But that's neither here nor there. I would have voted for Joe Biden's corpse. I would have voted for a bag of steaming, flaming dog poo before I would have voted for Donald Trump. Because any vote for Donald Trump is a vote to say, to excuse abject manifest evil. And it's not about policy. It's not about what he will do. I mean, I'm also reminded in The Simpsons, Sideshow Bob keeps trying to kill Bart Simpson over and over again, and at one point tried to marry Bart Simpson's aunt Selma and kill her for the insurance money. And then later on, he ran for mayor of Springfield. And Homer Simpson walked into the voting booth and he said, well, I don't like his kill Bart policy, but I do like his kill Selma policy. He ends up voting for Sideshow Bob. It's like you voted for a murderer. I just, that's where we are. That's where we are. So I'm sorry if this is more heated than And I'm trying not to direct it at you. And I'm trying to figure out... I mean, this is the difficulty I'm having. I posted some of these things on Facebook. And one of the things I said after I post is I said, if you are one of my few remaining Trumper friends, please sit this one out. Please do not jump in and say, oh, let's all agree to disagree and let's all be friends and it's all going to be fine. Just... Leave it alone because I will delete your comment and I will block you. And I have deleted probably half a dozen comments and blocked about half a dozen people, some of whom I've known for most of my life. But I just can't stomach it. I just can't accept that this is acceptable. I can't just say, if we're ever going to repair it, and I don't know if we can, frankly. But if we're ever going to repair it, we can't excuse it. We can't just say, yes, this is acceptable. Yes, we'll just roll with the punches. I intend to spend the next four years of my life in open opposition to my government. And I don't know, I mean, I don't plan on blowing anything up or shooting anybody or taking the law into my own hands. But I'll be damned if if I'm going to sit down and shut up and say, this is acceptable. Black is white. Night is day. Up is down. I'm fine with that. I can live with that. Let's all just get along as we go about destroying the world. So there, there's my rant.

SPEAKER_01: 51:41

What does that do to you? It doesn't change anything. my feelings towards you at all i love you um respect you enormously and this uh doesn't change any of that we said when we had the pre-election uh conversation last week on the podcast we knew we talked about the election uh we talked about the relationship with the church and the political process the church's position on um politics in general Hayden had a conversation which may or may not vote. We also talked about the need for respectful civil discourse when it comes to politics. Your emotions come through very strongly. And rightly so, these things are very important to you personally, as they are to me. I mean, I'm speaking as a non-American, but I'm seeing the relationship between Trump, and you describe Trump character and the context appropriately. So my point in the context of having a respectful civil conversation with you, notwithstanding the strength of emotion, which is completely understandable for someone that yourself, but a lot of people understand and feel the seriousness and the importance of this election. to America, but also to the global community, and the worry that so many of us feel now, what that Trump administration looks like. And so my point at the very beginning was trying to understand why Americans voted for Trump. You know, we talk about reality. The reality is that, we've been talking about it on this podcast, is that Americans voted for Trump. And he's in charge now and he's going to run his own administration. He's going to set people around him who agree with him. He's not into details. He doesn't understand. They didn't take the time to understand the details. And so I think we're going to have a very, very bumpy road. looking ahead um domestically in america certainly talking about tariffs which is absolute madness he's talking about tariffs putting tariffs on uk on europe and china i don't think he understands the basic of economics policies you know if you put tariffs on they'll put tariffs on america you get into this trade war right um and i'm not saying the current system is is perfect by any means but the solution is not just you know putting on tariffs to drive investment into American manufacturing, for example. So it's hard to disagree with those things that you said. Again, for our listeners, I've been trying to understand why America voted for the Trump character over Kamala Harris. And I've been trying to figure that out. Nevertheless, the reality is that they have voted for this individual. If you look at the, going back to the comment I made about Utah, the general election in Utah, if these numbers are right on this website here, which I think is reliable, Donald J. Trump won 59% of the vote across Utah, 783,306. 59% of that number is reliable. I'm looking at a map of Utah, and most of it's red. There's some blue areas. Clearly, Utah voted for Trump. I'd be fascinated, by the way, and I would love to know where the brethren voted. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the church leadership disclosed how they voted?

SPEAKER_02: 55:42

Well, just quickly, in 2020, it came out that Dieter Uchtdorf had donated money to the Biden campaign. And it was something of a scandal, and he tried to sort of downplay it and said, oh, that was some members of my family, that wasn't necessarily me, but everybody assumes that President Uchtdorf voted for Joe Biden.

SPEAKER_01: 56:11

So, anyway. So, you know, the church, we talked on the last podcast about the church policy principles on voting and, you know, vote with your conscience, vote for the right person. The church said on those statements that were read last week, you know, it tries not to influence politics and I take that with a pinch of salt. I would love to know where President Ellison voted, who he voted for. I'd love to know, well, who Dallin H. Hawks voted, including, you know, certainly the Quorum of the Twelve. Where are they on this? If you found out, hypothetical, actually probably is not a good question to ask because I think it would generate too much pain. I'm not going to ask. I think you might know the question about I'll ask it, but don't answer it, please. If you found out Nelson had voted for Trump, that might change your position. And I don't want to do that. I think it's right that you stay involved in the technical choir. I think it's right that you stay active in the church because you have that spiritual connection. Those experiences are far more important than walking away because you get so much. And as your friend, I would... But it's sad for you if you were to give that up because you feel so strongly in it. I'm not asking you to compromise on that, but I think you've come to the right decision about staying involved in the choir. You get a lot from that and staying involved in the church and actually actively holding a position in opposition against Trump. And I think you can do that in the position that you're in right now. You talked earlier, something really interesting you say, which is really the, I think the big thick red thread no reason for mentioning the word red other than just to highlight this issue, which runs through the entire tapestry of politics globally, not just in America. And that is the thing that you emphasized earlier about facts. You know, what are the facts? Because there's so much disinformation out there, it's hard to know what is true and what isn't true. For example, if you look at the economy here, The US economy, and I did some research before our conversation here, the US economy is doing quite well, even better than that. It's stable, it's growing at a faster pace than was expected in the last two or three quarters. And despite that, despite the facts and the numbers on paper where it's doing pretty well, people... are still feeling, quote, a bit glum about it all, no matter how good the data seem to say they should feel. And I think that's fascinating where you've got facts supporting that the economy is doing quite well, and then Trump saying it's not. The other side to that as well, you know, I begin looking at information based on facts. If you look at the Bureau of Economic Analysis, U.S. Department of Commerce, which I'm looking at right now, he says here that The U.S. monthly international trade deficit increased in September 2024 according to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis and the U.S. Census Bureau. The deficit increased at$70.8 billion in August to$84.8 billion in September as exports decreased and imports increased. That's not good. That's a problem item in the economy. You look at the economy overall, GDP and and domestic growth and investment, et cetera, the U.S. economy is doing quite well. But in terms of exports versus imports, the goods deficit increased to$14.2 billion in September to$109 billion, and the services surplus increased$0.6 billion in September to$24.6 billion. So there is, in parts, a mixed picture in terms of the economy. But overall, again, if you look at the facts, if we go to sources where we can rely on the facts, U.S. economy is doing quite well and is positioned to do quite well, certainly under the Democratic government. The other thing as well I want to kind of highlight, you talked about reality where, you know, we talked on the last podcast about normalcy and norms and Trump making things that are abnormal normal and speaking lies as truth. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. He does that. And there's no indication he's going to stop that, by the way. And if we look at the last Trump presidency... which was an absolute disaster. He went through so many cabinet changes. Even Chief of Defense, I've lost count. It was like everybody was being fired almost on a weekly basis. One of the foreign policy advisors, is it John Bolton? I think he lasted a day. He went through his staff like there was no tomorrow. And I suspect that we're going to see I might be wrong, something similar to that. He'll surround himself with these individuals that think and feel the way he does. But when you talk about normalcy, Trump aside for a moment, if that's possible, the things that are happening in the world, Jim, are not normal. I mean, look what's going on. Look at the facts on the ground in the world. You've got Russia invaded Ukraine, part of Europe. Undoubtedly, Russia will be emboldened and he will not stop at the borders of Ukraine. We know that. I'm worried about that. Europe is going to have to step up because Trump is looking at backing off. And I think that's a good thing. Europe is going to have to fill the gap. Otherwise, Russia will just continue to steamroll over parts of Europe. Moldova's next, Poland, etc. The NATO alliance, I agree, is the most successful alliance in its history. And I think that could be at risk of a truck. New things are happening in the world, which is reality, is this continuing unfolding and escalation between Israel and all of its enemies. We've seen a potential case for, I think the FBI in the US have indicated that Tehran, Iran was behind the attempted attack. assassinations of Trump. I don't know how reliable that is, but we're seeing a continued escalation between Israel and the terrorist actors that are happening in that part of the world. We're also seeing increasing numbers, up to 12,000, again, if information is reliable, if the facts are reliable, 10,000 to 12,000 North Korean special elite forces now actively fighting in Ukraine. And we're also seeing China looking at Taiwan closely, looking at seeing how America's going to act. And again, China could be emboldened if Trump walks away from Ukraine. So these things, you know, before the election, before Trump got in, all these things that I've just described are all happening. And they're all unfolding and they're all escalating. They're not getting easier, getting better, they're getting worse. The solution is to fight Russia back. by proxy and actually to continue that until Russia runs out of power to figure out a NATO response or another response in Ukraine to stop Putin in his tracks and to defeat Russia, to send a message to Russia that you cannot do this. Remember, Ukraine holds some Russian land and you have to support Ukraine in order to strengthen its position when it comes to negotiations. Under Trump, all that could be undone. All those gains could be undone. Putin will have a massive smile from ear to ear because he thinks he's going to get a significant win under Trump. But before the election, all these events were unfolding and escalating globally. We have to support Israel. We need to support Ukraine. Yes, Europe, Pakistan step up financially. That must happen. You've got to protect NATO and that alliance. Without a strong America, a balanced America with integrity and power, the world... I could think of some words here. I won't use them on the podcast. We are screwed. And if Trump now aligns with Russia and these other dictators, which... He could. I don't know if he will. You seem to think that he will and any evidence appears to show that. You might consider me foolish thinking that maybe Trump will have some integrity and support Ukraine and do the right thing for democracy and a sovereign nation and to help or contribute to protecting Ukraine. I There's a glimpse of hope in me that he will do that. I have limited confidence, but I still probably foolishly hope for Trump to behave appropriately. When we go back home to America here, we bring some of the conversation back home to America, and you look at immigration, there's a whole bunch of information and disinformation about immigration. We've heard Trump's very fascist-style comments towards immigration, and you articulate those issues really well. And I won't say but, because that negates what we've just said, but I will say that in the mind of most Americans, or certainly those who vote for Trump, and I think non-Trump voters, Democratic voters, I think people accept there's an immigration problem. I mean, let's Just a quick question, and I'll come back to my comments and finish up. Do you accept there's a problem with immigration in the US? Sure. Right. So there is a problem. I think it's important to characterize the problem. It's the same issue we've got in the UK. We've got huge immigration issues in the UK. They're not entirely dissimilar to America. There's a problem, and Americans need to have a solution to deal with it. Trump is... solution is drastic, it's extreme, but it has resonated with many of the Americans. Otherwise, why would they vote for him? And my point I'm trying to make at the beginning, and I know this was always going to be potentially an interesting and maybe even difficult conversation on the podcast, and I certainly don't want to... I think this is quite a unique conversation that we won't have probably again for another four years, but I was trying to figure out, along with so many other people out there, amongst millions, why on earth would American people vote for Trump? But I've been trying to think, why have they done that? Why would they vote for something like that? And I'm not trying to justify their decision. I think they've made a poor choice. They've chosen... You've described it extremely well. I don't want to go over that. This individual... with all the problems with that, they still voted for him. And I'm trying to wrap my brains around that and trying to figure out why. And I thought I had, or I think I have some understanding as to why. And I think I come back to the one thing, which is people obviously have lost confidence in The old system, you know, you talk about the old Republican, you know, GOP as it was, etc. You know, under your father, under traditional conservative Republican structure system, process of values. And that's changed now. Trump has his own movement. He's got his own people, his own gang, his own philosophy. Trumpism is how he thinks and operates. He's abandoned a lot of Republican values. And sadly, most Americans are in favor of that, clearly. And I'm trying to figure out why. So I'm not disagreeing with anything that you said, but I wanted to have, you know, we had this conversation last week, pre-election. We're now having this conversation post-election. Yes, it conjures up very strong emotions, especially in yourself. And I understand that. I think I can understand that. I'm trying to understand that. I'm not an American, so I don't fully understand, but I'm trying to. And I worry about the next four years. I think any gains that he thinks he can have are going to be short-lived, and I think he's going to make the world a much more dangerous place. So I've tried to balance this, and it probably is impossible to balance this because it's so weighted in terms of the things that we've talked about. against Trump. And I understand and accept the reasons why. But I still hope, say perhaps naively, that something somewhere good will come from this administration in some form. And I'm just trying to be hopeful, along with many of the Democrats thinking, well, this is terrible, but is it going to be as bad as what we think? So my question to you is, as we close off on this podcast. Do you think the Trump administration, 2024 onwards, is it going to be similar to the Trump administration before? And if not, why? And if it's going to be far worse, how bad do you think it might get?

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:25

Oh, well, I think, so I think it's going to be worse.

UNKNOWN: 1:10:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:40

Specifically because of what you described with regard to Trump's staff. So when Trump first won in 2016, I remember I was sitting with my brother at my mother's house watching the returns come in. And at the time I was, I had voted for a third party candidate because I had deluded myself into thinking that both Trump and Hillary Clinton were, if not equally bad, because I still thought Trump was worse, but I thought they were beyond the pale. I just couldn't bring myself to vote for Hillary. If I were to go back in time, I would campaign for Hillary. I would donate money to Hillary. I would do everything I could for Hillary because You know, hindsight has shown us just how uniquely dangerous Donald Trump was and is. But when he won, I was actually optimistic because, and I remember talking to my sister, who was beside herself and felt then kind of what I'm feeling now. And I said, no, look, Mike Pence, Mike Pence is reasonable. And Mitch McConnell is reasonable. My father used to serve in Senate leadership with Mitch McConnell. And of course Mitch McConnell will be a check on Donald Trump. And he'll hire, there was talk about him hiring Mitt Romney as Secretary of State for a few days. Until that fell apart. But I looked at all the people Trump was hiring and I went, okay, these are my kind of Republicans. With some exceptions, some glaring exceptions. Steve Bannon, for instance, is a Nazi and will likely be involved again. And he was brought on as Trump's chief strategist initially, although he ended up getting let go, like pretty much everybody. He served a prison sentence, didn't he? He was in prison. He just got out. Yeah, he just got out of prison just a week or two ago. Right. So, but I went, okay, yeah, Trump is a lunatic, but the Constitution... will hold, the Constitution can survive a whole lot of damage, and there are people around him who will keep him in check. Well, so this time around, 40 out of the 44 cabinet secretaries that Donald Trump had throughout his presidency refused to endorse him. His own vice president refused to endorse him. His former chief of staff, a four-star general of great renown and respected by people on every side of every issue, said that Donald Trump was the guy who called military... He's gone on record, before he just said this anonymously, but he's gone on record to say Donald Trump called our military suckers and losers. And he said... in a recording, in a podcast, that Donald Trump is fascist to the core. And walked through the definition of a fascist and said, Donald Trump qualifies as a fascist. And his former defense secretary said, we had to tell Donald Trump that he could not send paratroopers into Washington, D.C.''s streets to gun down the Black Lives Matter protesters. which he wanted to do. He also said we had to talk him into not bombing Mexico, which he wanted to do. And he said, well, but we just won't say it's us. What do you mean we won't say it's us? Who else is bombing Mexico? Who else has the ability to mobilize a fleet of aircraft to go in and blow up a sovereign country? So all these things have trickled out from his former staff who said, yeah, we were this close to him doing something ridiculously dangerous. He kept asking, why can't we drop a nuclear bomb into the middle of a hurricane, kill a hurricane? And the scientists would say, because A, it won't work, and B, you're dropping a nuclear bomb on an area that is populated. You can't do that. And Donald Trump kept coming back and saying we should. So, The reason why it's going to be worse is that all of those guardrails are gone. None of the people who are going to be surrounding Donald Trump are ever going to say no to him. And, you know, that's why he picked J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance is not Mike Pence. J.D. Vance was asked repeatedly, well, if you were asked not to certify an election by your president, not to certify a fair and free election, would you do your constitutional duty or would you obey the president? And essentially his answer is, I would obey the president. And so everybody that's going to be hired this time around is going to be a yes man. But the flip side of that is they're also going to be incompetent because professionals who know this stuff and are usually called upon for these positions won't have anything to do with Donald Trump, so it's going to be a bunch of unqualified idiots. And is there some comfort in that? Well, yeah, they're not necessarily going to be able to do everything. But there are no guardrails anymore. And the other thing that has happened is that Donald Trump has stacked the judiciary with people who now tell him that anything he does in his official capacity as president of the United States is completely immune from any criminal prosecution. So now, this time, instead of saying, okay, well, if I want to overthrow the government, I'll just do it from within the government and nobody can stop me. If he had planned January 6th using government resources instead of campaign resources, it wouldn't have even been possible. brought up on charges. And the only way to stop him from doing that is to impeach him. And he's been impeached twice. The only president to have been impeached twice. And it went nowhere because impeachment isn't a legal proceeding. Impeachment is entirely a political proceeding. And so you can impeach a hand sandwich and if Donald Trump were to walk out on 5th Avenue and shoot a voter like he talked about, you can ignore it. from an impeachment standpoint. There's no legal requirement that senators have to vote to convict based on anything. They can vote however they want. So Donald Trump is walking into absolute power with absolutely no guardrails. And is it possible it won't be worse? Yeah, it's possible. Is it likely? No, it's not likely. It's likely it's going to be worse, possibly much worse. So that's why I think it will... Now, how bad will it be? That I honestly don't know, and neither does anybody else. I wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat imagining World War III because we've let Hitler... Putin run wild. I mean, why would he stop at Eastern Europe? Donald Trump has already told NATO they stink and they're all jerks. And he said in his speeches, since you're not paying your dues, which isn't actually a thing. I mean, Donald Trump does not understand what NATO benchmarks a percentage of your GDP going toward defense means. He thinks that there's some kind of collection plate. where they're supposed to actually hand money to the United States, which is absolute nonsense. He does not understand how this works at all. He doesn't understand how any of it works. But he said, okay, if you don't pay your dues, I'll let Russia do whatever they want. That's a verbatim direct quote. And Vladimir Putin said, knows that. That's why Russia phoned in bomb threats to polling places in the state of Georgia. Because he knew that if he can disrupt, if he can do anything he can to get Trump in there, that he's got carte blanche to go anywhere, do anything. And there is nothing stopping him. There is nothing holding him back. And China, I think, will be equally emboldened, I think, You're going to see alliances between Russia and China recognizing that they now have the power. They've got a quiescent United States that will sit by and watch as they run roughshod over wherever they want to go. And so I think that, to me, is the scenario that's going to be really bad. But domestically, Trump, gets these tariffs in, the party of Reagan is now going to be the party raising taxes on the middle class and the working class because tariffs are a regressive tax that Donald Trump does not understand. He doesn't think they're a tax. He thinks that the governments that are being asked to pay more money are not going to pass those costs along to the consumer. which has, it's just lunacy. I think they have the potential to wreak major economic devastation. He tried to do that last time. There were traditional Republicans who tried to stop him or at least slow him down. There was a book that was written anonymously by a guy who talked about when Trump started, they used to just take memos off of his desk because Trump didn't read And Trump's attention span is that of a gnat. And so if you just took a memo off talking about something, he would forget about it. And so they could exploit the fact that he's stupid and has no memory to get him to avoid doing ridiculous things. And that's how they kept trade policy from completely collapsing after the Trump administration first time. I just think all that stuff has gone away. And all of Trump's worst instincts, all of Trump's bad ideas, are going to come to fruition. And the forced relocation of 15 million people is going to just... It's interesting now because there are Democratic governors who are saying, we were not going to cooperate with the federal government on this because this is just an egregious, egregious overreach. of what your powers are as a federal government. And so we're going to stop them. So you're going to see roadblocks. You're going to see resistance. But right now, there isn't any kind of... Congressionally, it looks like Republicans are going to hold the House and gain the Senate, which means that there's nobody in Congress that's going to stop him. Who's going to stop him? Who's going to tell him no? Who's going to tell him this is a really dumb idea? Who's going to hold the plug when he tries to launch the nuke at the hurricane. So our only hope is that these people are really, really stupid. I just don't have any confidence. I can't place my confidence in

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:23

that. We want to close here, but doesn't he have a majority on the Supreme Court? Yes, he does.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:36

He does. And what that means, at this point, what that primarily means is that the Supreme Court is not going to allow any kind of legal obstacle to get in his way. It's now looking like, for instance, the judge who presided over his 34 felony convictions is going to be holding a hearing this week as to whether or not those charges should just be dismissed. And I mean, so he's not in any real legal jeopardy while he's president. He never would have been. But he's also not in any legal jeopardy after he leaves the presidency, which he would have been if it were not for the Supreme Court. So I'm going, well, I think I've got a verse from the Book of Mormon that I've been seeing a lot out there that I think is a good way to close this. It's in the book of Mosiah, chapter 29. And it says, Now it is not common, this is verses 26 and 27. Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right. But it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right. Therefore, this shall ye observe and make it your law, to do your business by the voice of the people. And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you. Yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction, even as he has hitherto visited this land. I can't help but read those verses as prophetic. That, for the most part, democracy... It does. It tempers extremism. It's very difficult for something purely evil to get majority support by the voice of the people. But that's where we are. We have chosen an evil man with an evil agenda, and we've done so with our eyes open and said, we choose Barabbas. You know, when they said, who shall we release when there were prisoners on the cross? Instead of Jesus, they said, give us Barabbas. We have chosen evil. And I am not going to back down from that. I'm not going to apologize for saying that. And I'm going to continue to say it no matter how uncomfortable it makes my fellow Latter-day Saints who voted for evil. And I fear that the destruction, the judgment of God will be upon us as a result.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:34

We're going to close here, but I described you at the beginning as interesting. This has been an interesting conversation, at least. I felt, as you did, it was right to talk about this on the religious podcast. There is a very important distinction and relationship between the election, the results, and Trump coming into power, and the church, the church's position. I won't get into specifics, but if there's one item amongst others that I think the church needs to communicate its position, it's on immigration. And anything that's extreme or fascist or right-wing, which disrupts individual lives, people's lives in a very draconian and a very terrible way to pull families apart and separate children from parents. I hope and pray the church on that particular issue, amongst other issues, will communicate its position and do the right thing. And as the prophet of the only true church of Jesus Christ, mouthpiece of that, I hope that the church will be a leading leader voice in doing the right thing, in trying to do the right thing, based on the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jim, I thank you for being part of this conversation. I know this has been a very painful experience for you with the election and how you're feeling right now to an extent. I don't fully understand or appreciate how you feel. I appreciate that our relationship survives to the next podcast, at least.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:20

That was probably a little dramatic of me, but I've been mindful of this because there are relationships. I have friends now that I don't know that our relationship will survive this.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:35

Well, that saddens me. I mean, you've got your position on these things, and I... I try to understand. I don't fully understand. You're very much immersed in this, and I respect that completely. But I'm glad we've had this conversation because it brings up a lot of issues that we need to talk about. And it brings up, it highlights, again, the relationship between the church and Trump policies, Trump positions on principles of morality, decency, and integrity. And in closing, my question is, My hope is, and question is, where is the church on these items? Will it stand up? Will it speak up? Will it be a voice of reasoning, a voice of balance and countermeasures to hopefully balance some of the policies and some of the actions that are going to come out of this Trump administration? I suspect you're right on a lot of things. I hope you're wrong. I think you are right. Sadly, I think we're in for a very turbulent time and I worry. Actually, it's hard not to worry. But let's remain hopeful and let's pray that something somewhere will have the power to intervene. And I think that's God's I think hopefully the church can influence its members to do the right thing and to speak up when it sees wrong. In closing, what's that scripture where people or the devil calls bad good and good bad? I can't remember where it is. Isaiah. Isaiah, yeah. When we call good bad and bad good, I think... I think that's where we're at. But I'm trying to be hopeful, and I still hope that it won't be as bad as what we think it might be. I mean, who knows? I appreciate your time. To all the listeners, thank you so much. The last two podcasts have been highly political. We try to balance it with the church and the church politics and the church principles. And again, it's hard not to be emotional on these things. Next week, we'll continue, I think, with regular themes. We'll figure that out in the meantime. But today, we want to thank you for listening. Jim, thank you for being part of this conversation and for bearing your soul and telling us what you really think and not holding back. Thank you. And again, to all of our listeners, thank you for participating and contributing to the latest episode of Insider. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Liam.