Christmas

Ian and Jim discuss the blessings and opportunities of Christmas, in and out of the Church. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with the Yuletide Ian Wilkes. How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

I am feeling very Christmassy today. I'm excited about Christmas. Looking forward to spending time with family, friends and taking time off work. A few days doing nothing, which I think is quite therapeutic and really excited about spending time over Christmas. Are your kids coming home? Yeah, we all kind of regroup and they're all coming here, which is traditional. And we kind of hang out, play games, have fun, eat too much. Dance, you know, everything apart from alcohol. We don't do alcohol in the house.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

All right. We don't either, but we're not going to be at the house. So this Christmas, we're flying to Cabo San Lucas in Mexico. Oh, nice. We decided, you know, we can play Santa Claus or we can get, because now our family's starting to scatter. My oldest daughter lives in Milwaukee. She's just started residency as a doctor. And my second oldest daughter lives in Southern California, my old stomping ground. She's getting a doctorate at the University of Southern California, which is also my alma mater. But so we haven't seen either one of them for quite some time. And it's going to be really delightful to have them here. And they're all showing up and then we're all hopping on a plane and we're spending a week in the sun, which makes us very happy because it's starting to get pretty cold here. Although it's not... It's not all that bad yet. We've had a couple of snowstorms, but it's been all right. Have you ever done some kind of big travel with your family before?

SPEAKER_00: 2:03

We have, yeah. We normally stay at home at Christmas time, but we've traveled lots of different places around the world, U.S., parts of Europe. We've been to St. Lucia, the Caribbean, or Caribbean. So, yeah, as the kids get older, well, the three kids, they've moved on now. in terms of getting their own place. So in the next few years, we plan to do a lot more traveling and we'd love to do a Mexico trip over Christmas. That's the plan. So we should coordinate next time. We should coordinate for

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

sure. Next time the Wilkses are heading to Mexico, the Bennetts. Let's do that. Yeah. And still no alcohol, but we'll see. We'll play it by ear. We can still have fun without alcohol, can't we? That's right. Well, we are recording this, so hopefully we will have a special guest joining us. I think we're going to leave the door open for that. So if that happens, we'll stop and we'll welcome the guest and introduce them. But I don't want to do that until he gets here. But I am recording this anyway. You may hear some echo because I am sitting in a hallway in the conference center in downtown Salt Lake City. I was sitting actually in the main conference center because it was very quiet until Rick Elliot, the tabernacle organist, decided to start practicing. And then it was way too loud. I can still hear him. He's still going over his organ solo that he's gonna be performing tonight. So tonight, this is being recorded the second night of the annual Tabernacle Choir Christmas program, which, you know, this venue seats 21,000 people. And over the past few years, because of COVID and also because of construction downtown, we haven't had a full house. And this is the first year since COVID that they've given out tickets to have a full house. So last night was our first concert, and it was just packed to the gills, and it was just absolutely delightful. And one of the interesting things about it, so every time, have you ever seen a Tabernacle Choir Christmas concert, Ian? No. You have not. Um, you know, it's so, so we record them every year and they release them on the public broadcasting system in the United States, uh, with a year delay. So last year's concert was recorded. It's on PBS this year, and we're recording this for PBS next year, but live and in person, it's just an amazing experience. We always get sort of a Broadway star to come and sing as a soloist with us. We've had Kristin Chenoweth and a number of other people you may have heard of. This one is a woman named Ruthie Ann Miles, who I had never heard of before she came in, but she's really talented and wonderful. But we also have another person who serves as a narrator for a story. We always tell this dramatic story. Two years ago, David Suchet. Have you ever seen Hercule Poirot? Yes. Agatha Christie, the guy who plays Hercule Poirot in the television series, two years ago told the story about essentially a guy who was the British Schindler. He found a way to rescue a lot of children and bring them to Great Britain during World War II. And that was the most moving story I had heard in all of this until this year. So I want to focus a little bit on this year's story. It's being told by a man named Dennis Haysbert. You would probably recognize his voice, maybe more than his face. He's the voice of Allstate Insurance. You're in good hands with Allstate. Big, rich, deep voice. And he was also on the television series 24. He played David Palmer, who at the time was the first black president of the United States, because this was out before... The United States actually had a black president, so he was a fictional black president, but that was his character. So you may recognize him. But he tells this story about a man in Kenya named Charles Muli. Charles Muli, at the age of six, was abandoned by his family. His family was deeply mired in debt, and they left him. They took the younger children and left, and he was the oldest child. But he was only six years old, and he was homeless. He went around looking for scraps, begging on the streets, and just was really struggling to survive. And at the age of 16, he was finally taken in as a house boy, essentially is how they describe it. And he... He ended up getting enough money to buy a car, which he turned into a taxi, and which he parlayed into sort of a taxi business, which he parlayed into a business that sold auto parts and all these other things until he essentially had this sort of small little empire. And by the time he was in his 40s, he had a monopoly on oil production in eastern Kenya. And he was a very, very wealthy man. And at one point, his car, some children came begging to him. And he turned them away. He said, I didn't have any money. I didn't have any time to feed them. And I didn't just want to give them money. I wanted to feed them. So he turned them away. And he came back and found that his car had been stolen. And he thought about it for a minute and said, geez, that's... You know, that wouldn't have happened if I had shown the kind of compassion to these children that was shown to me. He sort of forgotten himself and decided he needed to devote his time to helping children. And he had this sort of epiphany. They described his experience. This is when he sort of discovered religion. He was not a member and is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But he is a Christian and he talks about this powerful conversion. And he talks about one night just sort of driving off into the wilderness and just wrestling with God. What is it you want me to do? And at one point, Dennis Haysbert, when he tells the narration, he just throws open his arms and he says, he's demonstrating this moment in Charles Moody's life. And he says, use me. And he said that the love of God just sort of came flooding into his life. And he realized what he had to do was sell everything he owned. And he said, we will never work for money again. And he sold everything he owned and created, he began just by going back out into the street. And he goes out into the street and he just calls, oye, oye, tush. the ragamuffins that are there. And he says, three children sort of scampered out of the darkness and he took them home and essentially adopted them. And then he started doing this on a nightly basis. And then he remodeled his home to accommodate dozens and then hundreds of children. And it became this sort of community center, but he considered it all a family that he was adopting this whole family. And today, There are thousands upon thousands of children that have been saved by the Mully Family Foundation in Kenya and in Tanzania. And the most moving part of it was that Charles Mully actually came to the concert and Dennis Haysbert was visibly moved, visibly emotional as they talked with each other about this experience. And this was moving for a number of reasons to me. One being the story itself is so compelling. But there were two things, aspects about it that were really interesting. One is, prior to 1978, prior to the revelation giving black people priesthood and temple blessings, this kind of a presentation by the church would have been unthinkable. And second of all, The fact that the church is highlighting somebody outside of what President Nelson describes as the covenant path. This is not somebody who is seeking church membership. This is not somebody who is seeking temple blessings, but this is somebody who is a disciple of Christ. And that is enough. That is enough for the church to be able to highlight this. And it's also, I think, really wonderful and reassuring that people like Dennis Haysbert, because I don't think Dennis Haysbert would have felt comfortable narrating something, being a spokesman for the church that was denying blessings to people of color. And I don't think Charles Mouly would feel comfortable affiliating with the church in any way if the church had not made progress along those lines. So it's just really inspiring to me to do this. And of course the experience, I'm just, Christmas to me is Christmas music. I've said many times that the way I feel the spirit most immediately, most powerfully is through music. And that's the wonderful blessing of serving in the Tabernacle Choir is that I get a chance to do that every week. And I get a chance to feel that every week. And it's always, wonderful, but there's something special about Christmas. Is Christmas music a big part of your celebrations? What is it that moves you at Christmastime?

SPEAKER_00: 12:36

Music is a big part of my life in general. I've got such a wide range in terms of taste of music, from jazz to Swing, dance, jazz, music, right through to classical. I like even a little bit of gothic music, rock, pop, classical, of course. Got some classical music I just adore. But I always loved the Mormon Chronicle Choir. It's a professional choir, of course. And a big part of the church branding, you know, if you hadn't heard of, you know, with Mormons, you've probably heard of polygamy. You've probably heard of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and you'll have heard of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. It's right up there in terms of what the church is known for. And the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, you can speak to this more than I can, it connects to people who are religious and non-religious. It gets you into places that are not necessarily religiously focused. All kinds of people listen and enjoy Mormon Tabernacle Choir music because it's not just church, it's professional. It's a professional choir. So we, we put on the, uh, some old CDs and, and, uh, uh, old LPs of the Bomb and Tablet Choir. We go, we go all school and we listen to that and we just enjoy, and we play the Christmas music and we enjoy that throughout Christmas. So music and, uh, Christmas carols and, and, uh, church related music is a huge part of our Christmas experience. Um, yeah. know as i was listening to you and and um there are wonderful stories of people in all with all backgrounds all kinds of uh backgrounds who have sacrificed um a lot in their life to give to some someone else to give to others to help others who are um feeble uh you know we talk about the scriptures talk about um heads hanging low and to those with feeble knees, the downtrodden, the poor and the needy. And there are many of those individuals around the world, sadly, who are in need, not just at Christmas time, but they experience that all through the year. And Christmas time is a time to remind us of who we are, what we have, the relationships that we have, to be grateful for what we have, and a time to be kinder to others to serve others to help others we should do this all these things and be like this all year round that's not always the case we get you know bogged down with work and commitments and you know we we come home from work and we we spend time with family before you know you're in bed and the days just roll past and and uh it's it's often difficult to find time to uh To help others. And that's what I think the church does really well, by the way. I think the church is extraordinary at providing opportunities to serve and to help others. And I do miss that. Although we've replaced that experience by serving in the community. Every year, there's a group of us go down to the homeless shelter in the town that we live. And we give food and we give time and we befriend as well. It's not just... provisions and food and hot drinks. We actually have conversations with individuals who are vulnerable or excluded or disadvantaged or homeless. And I think that's probably the most precious gift we can give. Yes, you can give money, you can give materials, which are really, really important. But I also think we can give a time. If you remember that video that was on the film strip years ago, certainly when I was investigating the church, it was the It was on a film strip that the missionaries used on a projector, propped up on some, not the Book of Mormon, because that was too sacred, but the Bible. They used to prop it up on the Bible. And it was all... Yeah, the Book of Mormon was a bit more sacred than the Bible back then, but it was a man's search for happiness. I remember that. And there were two main gifts that we had from that lesson. One was free agency. Another one was time. And we had the time to choose things, to make choices. And Christmas time is a time to reflect, a time to review our relationships, to renew relationships, a time to forgive. I've said earlier, we should be doing this all the time through the year and week. We often don't. But Christmas is a time to pause, reflect, reflect. Look at our relationships. Look at our friendships. Look at our family relationships. Look at our life. Be grateful for what we have. We've got time. Many of us have time. Some of us don't have time. We don't know. We might have had some bad news, and we may only have, sadly, a short time here on this planet, on this earth. There are people who are walking around feeling numb and feeling lost, feeling alone and feeling hurt. And we don't know their stories because it's not something that they advertise. You don't see often what's going on inside people's minds or people's hearts. But we have the time, and if we create it, we have the opportunity to help others and to serve others. On an earlier podcast, I shared my experience that I had with my– uh, embolism event that happened in May. It's, it's, um, it was a life changing experience for me and it was very close to me not being here. Um, but here I am, I'm on this podcast with you when it's December and I'm having another Christmas. And so I, uh, don't take things for granted as much. Um, and I think, uh, if there's a message here in a podcast, uh, a number of messages is to remind ourselves of what we have. We have life, and life, yes, it can be very challenging, and it could be challenging right now for many. But we have life, and we have opportunity. We can create opportunities. And we have people, whether we know it or not, who are there, who can help us and love us. Sometimes we need to be the ones to reach out to let people know that we need help. People can't read minds. They can't look at you and automatically know that you are in need. And sometimes it requires a little bit of humility and strength to say, hey, I need help. I'm struggling right now. I'm alone. I feel lost. And there's a huge amount of good out there, Jim, in the world. We've got a world of division, for sure. We're entering another period of division and conflict. 2025 is... I think going to be another year of conflict. Hopefully we can resolve some of the big issues. We can't change things in the world. We can make a little bit of a difference locally, regionally, maybe certainly in our own lives and within that sphere of influence. We probably can't change some of the big issues happening in the world, but we can make a difference on a personal level. We can make someone feel good, do something for them, remind them of who they are, that they are children of God. I still believe that we're all children of God. And I still believe in the Christmas message that the churches continue to communicate each Christmas, that Christ lives and that he is real and that he died for a purpose. I still have a lot of... That still has a lot of hold on me. I still hope for that. The scriptures talk about, you know, we hope for a better world. I think we all want to live in a better world. And we want to... be free from the problems that we've got for a period of time, at least. And I think Christmas is a time where we can gather around, gather our friends and our family, and for a moment, maybe we could forget some of our problems, be grateful for what we have, think about Christ, who he was, his example. I mean, he sacrificed everything. He gave everything, and he gave his life, and I still believe that. And so... We have agency. We can choose. I think most people in the world have got agency to some extent. Sadly, there are people in the world, the country of the world, that take away agency, and that's terrible to live in a situation where you don't have much freedom of choice. But we have time as well, and we can do great things with that time. And we can help ourselves, and we can help others. And we get strength, I think, from helping others. If we're down and lost, I've learned that However hard it might seem, and not everyone can do this, I get that, but we can, to make ourselves feel good, we can actually do something for others and we get a good feeling from that. And the church does really well on that. You know, when we are in the service of our fellow men, we are in the service of God. I think it was in Mosiah, a scripture that you and I used to know off by heart. So music, have you seen his big, yeah, Mosiah 2.17. Music is a huge part of this. read the scriptures as a family, sharing the story about Jesus, going out and doing a service project, being there for a friend, listening, and I would say spending time. If you haven't got any money and you haven't got much to give, just give your time to someone. And if they feel better because you spent time with them and you lifted them up and you built them and they feel good, even for a moment, then To me, that's a great gift. I know that's very generic. I've not got any specific stories to share right now, but I think that's the message I would share with our listeners and anyone else who's out there.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

Well, what's compelling about it to me, I mean, it doesn't feel generic because it feels like you... continue to treasure the principles that you embraced when you were inside the church, and that you haven't lost any of that by being outside the church. And I think, you know, that Christmas is a great sort of reminder of the world beyond the church. I mean, when I was growing up, and again, we've said many times, your background was very different from mine. But when I was growing up, the church was essentially the whole world. I mean, the church was the haven from the world. And as you got closer to Christmas, the church, we had huge Christmas parties. I can remember one growing up where there was a woman who had all of the members bring their finest china to come and serve Christmas dinner. It was two days before Christmas. But it was just this huge event, huge elaborate sort of event, and it wasn't focused on anything specifically related to the church. It was just sort of community building. I feel like we've lost so much community within the church, but at the same time, we can sort of be insulated in the church and start thinking that the Ian Wilkeses of the world can't really experience Christmas if they're not inside. We start thinking that we have the kind of monopoly on all of the things that you described, all of the things that you described, hold dear to your heart, even though you no longer participate in the church. I think one of the biggest problems the church faces now is that we seem to be losing that sense of community. The church isn't the whole world for anybody. Here in the United States, they got rid of the Boy Scouting program and they replaced it with essentially nothing. And the church has gone down from three hours to two and everybody says, isn't that great? Not so many times in boring meetings. And I say that's great too. I don't like boring meetings, but there's something else that's been lost. We don't do the road shows. We don't do the camp outs. We don't do all of the things that we're building community. And we don't do the big Christmas celebrations, the big Christmas parties. and the big Christmas community building. And so one of the reasons why the Tabernacle Choir is so precious to me is that here it is. Here it is, the church saying, okay, yes, this is sort of community building, but we're building our community beyond the boundaries of the church. This Tab Choir concert is an outreach to the world. And it's not... it's not proselyting. You know, we've talked many times about how to fix the missionary program. And I think what we settled on was this idea that all missionaries should be service missionaries. That going out and knocking on doors in 2024 is a complete and total waste of time. But if people are attracted to the community, if people see Latter-day Saints out in the world, making a difference, feeding the homeless, doing what Charles Mouly did, reaching out to people in need, whether or not they come to church or ever come to church. That, I think, is the way you build the kingdom of God. I don't think you build the kingdom of God through theological bashing or through exclusivity or through any of the kinds of approaches that I think are part of the reason why the whole missionary effort has largely stalled throughout the world. I think if this spirit of Christmas, if the church were to embrace this year round, if the church were to put on these kinds of productions and reach out to people outside the boundaries of the church, well, what do you think that would do? What kind of impact do you think that would have? Huge.

SPEAKER_00: 27:50

Yeah. Massive. I mean, it would be transformative for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 27:56

Well, so I'm hopeful. I mean, you've said many times, I hope that the church is listening to our podcast. I don't know if they are. I know, but I just don't see any other way forward for the church. other than to embrace that same sense of community. I imagine what would happen if Moroni appeared to me in my bedroom right after President Nelson passed away and said, we're doing this differently. It's not going through seniority. We've decided that you are the guy we need to be the president of the church. I mean, or pick your ridiculous scenario. But I've thought, what would I do? If I were president of the church, if I were in charge, if I could see all the problems in the church, I can see the struggles and I can see the fact that we're really not growing. I would say, this is what I would do. I would lean into the community. I would lean into the service. And I would say, I would make the Latter-day Saints the kind of people that other people want to be like, that other people want to be with, that other people are grateful to have in their communities. Because the insular nature of the church sometimes means you can be in the community and you can not make a difference in the community. I mean, I can remember growing up, it's like, okay, well, you said, give them their time, give them your money. And I thought, well, the church does this so well. I pay my fast offerings. I pay my tithing, I pay my fast offerings. Isn't that enough? Isn't that doing it? Isn't that all that's asked of me? And the older I get, the more I realize just how tiny that kind of thinking is, how much more expansive That kind of thing. So as a thought experiment, I don't know if you've ever done this, Ian, but I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit. So get ready. President Nelson has just died. Moroni comes to visit me and I told him, no, I'm busy. I got other things to do. I have to sort my socks. So Moroni decides, okay, well, who else should be the church? And then he appears in your bedroom and says, Ian, you're in charge of the church. You're the new president of the church. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00: 30:34

I would accept it. All right. In an instant, in a heartbeat. And I say that without arrogance, hopefully, with some degree of humility, if that's possible. And I'll tell you why. I think I would make a big difference. And I'll tell you why. Because you, a few moments ago, have communicated what I think is one of the most important things Solutions, opportunities facing the church today. Look at the history of the church. Look at how the church is structured and organized. It's organized around a service model. You know, ministries, home teachers, visit teachers, it used to be called callings. I mean, it's established structure, organization, and processes are geared to serving. Every calling, every process is about helping others. It's misguided, I think, in regards to how it utilizes that structure in certain areas and in a certain way. But I think you just communicated the solution that I would take up and lead with, with strength, vigor, confidence, and unrelenting passion. Not because I'm Ian Wilkes and I might possess or not some unique, extraordinary magical skill, which I do not. But I think that's one of the most important answers, and that is to focus on service. And you've nailed it. Go out there with$150 billion. You can do a lot with that. You can go teaming and partnering. You can help the homeless, which is what Christ would do. Put that money to good use. Put that organization. Go team and partner with the churches, other charities. Take that small model, because the church does this to an extent. It's got helping hands. It goes into different countries of the world and helps with water distribution projects and clean drinking water. It does an element of that. I think the answer, one of the answers is to expand that exponentially. Do that across the United States. Do it in, you know, do it with your own members. Look at what you can do right now to help the most impoverished members, for example, right? But extend that like the examples of the stories that he gave, and take this extraordinary organization with all that wealth and power, and also the most important thing is the devotion, Jim, that members have in the church. The commitment, the testament, the devotion, the sacrifice, the extraordinary commitment and enthusiasm that the members have to help. That's the power. That's extraordinary power. Make that, broaden that power, distribute that power, scale it. I talk about scaling business operations in business. Scale the successes and expand it globally. And if the church did this, it would get more converts, not just about standing up and talking at a pulpit or general conference or reading a scripture or going to a meeting to talk about another meeting, which is... lots of wasted time right um put put it into action go do something mobilize all that resources and scale it and go team partner build that resources it will you know if your objectives are to expand the brand get more converts um strengthen the membership um you will achieve that if the if the bread and the listen to this um You will achieve greater things than you've done already if you focus most of the resources into expanding those service opportunities on a scale far, far, far greater than what they've done right now. So I would accept, before you even finish the question, and I would commit significant resources to that, and I promise you, because it's the right thing to do. It's easy. It's the right thing to do. And doing the right thing to do often always is it's there facing you. It's staring in your face. It's the right thing to do. It's simple. It's what Christ would want. You've got the organization. You've got the resources. And I can promise you, the church would potentially double in size. Even if people don't join the church, they'll think highly of it. And even if they don't get converts and you've blessed their lives, right? You've helped them or you've helped a friend or you've helped somebody. you've seen, you've been part of a project, that will stay with you forever. I think you've nailed, again, this is not the first time we've talked about this, this is a solution, not just to the problems that the church is facing, there's an opportunity to achieve all of the spiritual and service objectives of the church. If the church has got other objectives like financial, which it probably has, unfortunately, but it would generate more revenue as well. If you're looking at it from a business perspective, I'm sure it would. But the primary focus is to serve others, like what Christ did. That's the message. And that's what I would do. And I would take that mantle. I'd run with it for, well, it's a lifelong calling, so you can't release me. I'd be dead every day. I remember when Elder Oaks trained us that weekend, we had a conversation with him, and I've shared this with him before, I think. He said, what kind of presidency do you want to be? And we were reflecting on that. And I can't remember the answers we gave. And he also said, how do you want to be remembered as a presidency? And I thought about that, and I thought, well, for me personally, you know, be remembered as a bishop or a leader or a state presidency, It's that I was approachable, I listened, hopefully understood, and I did something. I did something to help. And I made a difference. And I did something physically, you know, action, that actually helped in some measure that person. I helped improve their life. I fixed a problem or I did something to help them or their family. And that's all I ever wanted. And to the other counselors, they were the same. They were the same. That's what they wanted as well. You know, we're on this planet. We talked about time and agency earlier. We're on this planet for a very short period of time in the history of the Earth. And, you know, 3 billion years, is it 3.8 billion years? Is that the universe? Is it 13 billion for the universe? I think the Earth is 3, 4 billion years old. The moon's about 3 billion. We are a... Just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. Our life is just a tiny minuscule of a minuscule in that time span of the earth. We're here for extremely unfathomable, unimaginable short period of time to do something. to do good, to be good, to be the best, and do the best that we can to help others. I think happiness, it's key to happiness is serving others, for sure. And you know, when we die, and you and I are pushing 60, you know, I'm a little bit older than you, right? One day, I remember this was, I remember being in a discussion once, I'd only been out two weeks in Dumfries in Scotland, and my companion very boldly told somebody that, because they were rejecting the gospel, and he looked at me and said, to this person on the door. He said, one day you will die. I was like, why are you saying that? And this person looked quite, it was like an Elder Spencer moment, I think. And they looked quite shook up by that. And he said, you will be brought before God and you'll be held accountable. And I think it quite scared the person. But when I think about that, I think how fleeting life is. We will die. We will die one day. We're not going to live forever. And eventually, you know, after a few years of people, you know, a few weeks, months maybe, and if we're lucky, a few years of missing us and mourning us, those who have a memory of us eventually, and they will miss us, eventually they will die too. So those who have a memory of us will go. And eventually, if we do something great in the universe or great on the earth or something of some significance, We might be remembered in some small footnote somewhere. Hopefully the Inside Out podcasts are eternal. Hopefully we're eternalized with Inside Out podcasts, some evidence that we exist. But eventually, Jim, you and I will be forgotten. We might be a footnote. We'll be on some genealogy chart, a name. Jim Bennett, you're married to Laurel, kids, birthday, you know, date you died, born and died, maybe a little bit of information about what you did, but that's it. Maybe not much more than that. Your entire life into two sentences, if you're lucky. And that's it. And then those memories that people have of us will go when they die. And a hundred years from now, no one will remember me or you apart from a footnote. And even then they'll read it And then we'll be forgotten again. And we might come up again at some point. So life is very short. We have limited time. All the things that we've done will be written into one sentence or two sentences at some point in the future. If the podcast still exists, that's probably different. That might last. But what I'm saying is that we don't have much time. We're going to get forgotten. The universe is going to forget us. You know, from the universe perspective, we didn't even exist. Where's the evidence that we even existed, right? But we did. Here we are at this time. And we've got life and we can do something with that life. And we can decide how do we want to be remembered. So you asked me a very great question. You may not have expected the answer. I don't know. I would step up to that and do my very best. But I want to throw a question back to you and put you on the spot, if I may. Nice. I want to kind of throw the, you know, hit it back into your car and ask you, how does Jim Bennett want to remember Jim Bennett? How do you rather, sorry, let me call you for that. How do you want to be remembered? I've

SPEAKER_01: 41:25

actually thought an awful lot about that question. So I think I have an answer ready for you because being remembered was much, much, much more important to me when I was younger. I wanted to be a world famous actor. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm going to get my big break, and I'm going to make it into the movies, and I'm going to make my mark. And it was, aha, this is what is really, really important to me. And that never happened. And I went through a period of disappointment and frustration that it hadn't happened. I sort of expected it to happen. I thought that's what God wanted to happen for me. And there's a lot of arrogance in that. I mean, there's a lot of, and then I sort of went through this idea of, well, then I don't matter at all. Then I'm completely worthless and maybe God doesn't even pay attention to me at all. And I sort of flip back and forth. But the thing that has given me, I think, if not the correct answer to your question, the answer that sits best with me, the thing that has given me that answer is my children. is, okay, I now recognize this is the world I'm leaving behind for them. And it doesn't matter if I'm not remembered as a huge star. I mean, the fact is, you said in 100 years, we'll all be forgotten. That includes Tom Cruise and... Brad Pitt and all these people who, okay, yes, these guys are a big deal and everybody knows who they are. Nobody's going to know who they are 100 years. They're just not. They're just not going to remember any of it. It doesn't matter. And you're right. When people die, their memories of you will die as well. But all I want is to know that I've raised children who have gone out into the world to be decent and kind and wonderful human beings. And if I do that, the likelihood that they do that with the next generation is, I think, fairly high. And that becomes your legacy. And so in 100 years, no one may remember me but they will remember their own parents who were parented by those decent kind people, parented by the decent kind people that I parented. And that will be the legacy I leave behind. So now I'm very comfortable with the idea of being forgotten. You know, I've run for office and at one point running for office was sort of that same sort of grab for glory. First time I ran for office was over 20 years ago. But even when I ran for office this last time, and of course I haven't won an election, so I'm not going to be running for office again. It was interesting because after I lost this last election, I went, okay, I'm never going to hold elective office. And if you told me that 20 years ago, I would have been crestfallen. I would have thought, oh no, oh no, this is how I make my mark. And now it was, I mean, after I lost this last election, it stung. It was just, I mean, losing an election is so hard, but within a day, maybe two days, I got this sense of relief. I got the sense of, I don't need to do this anymore. This isn't what defines my value as a human being. Jim Bennett has value whether or not he ever holds elective office. And that value comes from the impact I have, not just on my children, but on the people I can have an impact on. I'm always reminded, it's a cliche story. You know the story of the starfish throwing the starfish back? Two guys are walking along a beach and all of these starfish have washed up on the shore. and they're gonna die because they're out of the water. And so one of the men picks up one starfish and throws it back in the ocean. And the other one says, look at all of these starfish. How do you think you're ever gonna make a difference? That didn't make any difference at all. And he says, no, it made a difference to the one I threw back. And to me, that's what life essentially is. I can make a difference with a... I can't throw all of the starfish back into the sea, but I can throw one at a time. I can make a difference with the people that God has given, has placed in my path. And so... The older I get, it's really interesting because I really feared death much more when I was younger. I was really scared of what would happen when I die. And the church sort of alleviated some of that, but not all of it. But as the older I get, and as you point, pushing 60, I'm 56. I've got four more years till I'm 60. When I'm 60, they kick me out of the choir. Tabernacle choir, you age out at age 60. So they've already told me when I die in the choir. But the older I get, the closer I get to death, the less I fear it. The less I fear being forgotten because I can see the goodness in my children. I can see the impact my life has had and it's never gonna get huge accolades from anybody. It's never gonna be written up in a, you know, some kind of, I don't know if I'm even gonna be a footnote, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because I can, and in accepting that, that's where the happiness is. not looking for the glory, not worrying about, geez, what I have now just isn't enough. Accepting what you have now, and that's sort of a Buddhist philosophy, just sort of letting it go. If you let it go, you appreciate what you still have. Every year, every Christmas is more special than the last. I mean, this time, I thought so many times, you know, now that my daughters have left home, my three sons are all in college, but they're all in college within a 50-mile radius of the house. They come back every Sunday for Sunday dinner. But this next week coming up is going to be the first time all of us have been together for almost a year. And I now... recognize how precious that is, how rare that is, how wonderful that is. And I also recognize a heightened sense of my own responsibility to help others who may not have that, who may not have the opportunity. And also, I feel like it's important, if God has called me to do anything, I mean, I think this podcast is is part of this idea. I remember Michelle Brady Stone talking about the borderlands. I think at Christmas time within the church, it's the people on the borderlands that are forgotten. The people who are on the edge, who are on the margins, who are just on their way out, or the people who have just left and are feeling that loss of community. I think it's essential we reach out to them. And I feel sort of called that that's the space where God wants me. And so hopefully if I'm going to be remembered by anybody at all, it will be that I was there on the borderlands. I was not there on the center stage, but I was doing everything I could to throw every starfish I could back into the sea. So do you have visions of glory? Are you hoping to be? Are you hoping that the Ian Wilkes Memorial Foundation and a big statue of you in the middle of Tiananmen Square... I don't know why I picked Tiananmen Square, but, you know, that's where big statues are.

SPEAKER_00: 50:50

I'm hoping to be the next prophet. You just asked me what would I do with it. So I... I would rescue the church. But no, I've not got any big aspirations or ambitions like that. I'm where you are. I'm comfortable in my skin. You know, I've failed enough to know what failure is like, right? Learned from it, I think, mostly. As successors, you know, you taste the bitter with the sweet. Life is... You know that movie, I think it's called Parenthood, and it's with... Steve, what's his name? Steve Martin, yeah. Steve Martin, yeah. It's a great movie. A good movie to watch over Christmas. And, you know, life, the family relationships are not going so well. Remember the story. There's all kinds of problems across each relationship in that family. And him and his wife are arguing in the kitchen. I can't remember the details about what to do with the situation or one of the kids. And the grandma comes in and randomly... shares a memory of when she was younger that she was, um, used to go to the fairground rides when, um, she was younger and she went on the, uh, the roundabout, the carousel thing. Right. And she said it was okay, but it just, um, you know, it just goes round and round and round. That's all it does. And she said her favorite was the roller coaster. The roller coaster went fast and slow and up and down. And it was just thrilling. And eventually, in this scene in the movie, she then comes in, shares that experience, very random. They're both looking at each other. Steve Martin and the lady who's the actress playing his wife look at each other. And then they realize that all the challenges and problems they've got with the family is a roller coaster, essentially. And life is a roller coaster. We have successes, failures, failures. We achieve some things. We don't achieve other things, et cetera. And that's what life is about. It's about teaching us and humbling us. And teaching is those important values. And teaching is what's really important. And what's really important is family, friends, time, monetary things, not really important, station and position and titles and cars and houses. And none of that's really important. You don't take that with you, right? When you're gone, that's it. You know, you're gone. Debbie's dad passed away sadly recently. And it's been a very traumatic last few weeks. And grandpa there was cremated. And all we have of him now, obviously we have his memories and some of the personal belongings. But we have some of his ashes. And that's it. Physically, that's, you know, didn't have much, but that's what we have. But more important than that is the memory that we have of him. An extraordinary man, a wonderful man, a wonderful husband, a wonderful father. And that speaks to what you said earlier about how we want to be remembered, you know, through our children and through those experiences. You know, what have we given ourselves to bless the lives of the family and our friends? And I think, you know, Christmas is a time to, if we haven't a time through the year, well, Christmas is a time to reflect and to ponder and to renew and review. and probably reset our priorities, even for a short space of time, to look for those who are in need, the down and the downtrodden, and those who hands hang low and feeble knees, and to remind ourselves of the important basics in life, love to love, to be loved, to forgive. If we have a strained relationship in our family, our friends, perhaps now is the time to say sorry. Perhaps now is the time to humble ourselves and even if we feel we're in the right, just to repair that. I know when I went through the experience in May that, you know, I don't have really very much of that part of my life, but I thought there's some relationships out there that I need to renew and rebuild and restore, you know, because of time and, you know, situations that happened, misunderstandings and things like that. And I was able to do that. One in particular I had some success in. which to me I was quite afraid of, quite frightened of, but I thought, well, I'm going to do it. You know, afraid of rejection, right? We're all afraid of rejection, but I thought, what the heck? You know, you're only going to live once, right? What's rejection, right? And so anyway, it wasn't rejection. It was acceptance and it was renewal. And I think Christmas is a time to remind us of what's important. So music is a big part of it, service, time that we have, opportunity to give. to keep ourselves humble, appreciate what we've got, live within our means. Um, don't spend too much, you know, don't, uh, you know, just work within, uh, with, with what you've got to the best that you can. We can't achieve everything. We can't be everything. We can't be great actors. We can't be, you know, great politicians necessarily, but we can be great at what we do in our own life. And we could be, you know, and really that's more important than being a politician and being an actor. It's achieving the full measure of who you are to the much as you can, you know, as much as you can, as far as you can, push yourself as much as you can to be the best you. Remember what that motto is from the Scotland Edinburgh Mission. Wherever thou art, I dwell thy part. So whatever you're doing, you know, life's a stage, whatever you're doing, you know, your family, friends, work, whatever, be the best, do the best, give the best. And, you know, You might not always get it back 100%, but you'll get a lot of it back. But if you give all the good out, I believe and my experience is that you get a lot of good back. And that's what life's about. It's about giving and being the best and doing the best we can for others. So I think that's my singing and dancing and sharing experiences and building others. And that's what they're the fundamentals. I think, in life. More important than anything. But I think you said earlier, and I'll finish on this, you've reminded us not just a solution to the church's problem, but an opportunity for the church to become great, even greater than it is, even now, is to mobilize its resources, expand them, scale them, and get the missionaries and the member force, all that energy, all that service commitment. Let's get people out there serving the community. in community projects, partnering, teaming, my gosh, the church will transform if we do that. The answer is so obvious. And so there are my, and bless the Lord, there's so many. That's my concluding remarks. Just to add that to all the listeners, we want to express our gratitude to you for your patience with us, your patience with me. I'm more of an amateur podcaster, Jim's more the pro or whatever. I'm happy being an amateur. I'm not too bothered about being a professional podcaster. I like coming on and sharing stories and experiences and, you know, not sounding professional. I quite like that. And so, you know, if anything that we said has helped you in any of the podcasts, then that is a blessing to my life.

SPEAKER_01: 58:22

Well, Ian, I just want to say this Christmas that you have been a blessing in my life. And I'm grateful for this opportunity to be able to share this time with you. And I'm grateful for all of the people who have reached out to us to talk about if this podcast has helped them, to give us encouragement, and also to tell us where we can improve. But this has been a great experience. And this, I think, is our chance to help throw a few starfish back in the ocean. So to everybody who is listening, thank you for listening. Merry Christmas to you. Happy holidays, whatever holidays you celebrate, whatever is close to your heart. We are very grateful for you here at Inside Out. So thank you all, and thank you,

SPEAKER_00: 59:15

Ian. Ho, ho, ho, and a Merry Christmas to you all. God blesses everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 59:21

There we go.