You Are Enough

Ian and Jim explore the challenge of toxic perfectionism in the Church. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the estimable Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

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I'm doing really well and I have no idea. Once again, what that word means. I thought I was very good with words in the English language coming from England, but I guess

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not. Estimable. It's like worthy of esteem. Worthy of great respect. She was shown into that estimable woman's presence is the line in the dictionary

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online that defines the word. Because if you are estimable...

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You are worthy of respect, but you are not perfect. And I wanted to talk about the kind of perfectionism that pervades the church based on a talk that my bishop gave this past week in ward conference. My bishop stood up and talked about his time when he was on a state basketball championship team In Sandy, Utah, he was in 1992, the Alta Hawks won the Utah State Basketball Championship, and he was on that team. And it was amazing. He remembered every aspect of the season. He could list every single team that his basketball team encountered and did so in order. He says, then we beat this team, and then we beat that team, and then we beat this team. So this had been emblazoned in his memory in a way that he had almost perfect recall of the entire season. But he talked about the fact that in the month of February of that season, that their team hit a rough spot. He said some of the people didn't want to practice hard enough. That's how he described it. And he also described that there was team infighting and there were other problems and they just weren't doing anything right. And so for the whole month of February, they didn't win a single game. And they didn't think they were even going to make it to the state championship tournament. But they turned things around. They started working really, really, really hard. And wouldn't you know it, they got into the tournament. And then they got into the finals. And they won the finals. Well, sports analogies are thick on the ground. in church settings. Me not being an athlete, I kind of get tired of them, but we hear them an awful lot. And the sports analogy was essentially that this championship was very much like the gospel of Jesus Christ and that we sometimes don't want to practice hard enough. And we should be working harder. And he used examples of things like, we need to tend the temple more. We need to pray more. We need to read our scriptures more. And that was the analogy, just like practicing basketball. And if we don't do all of those things over and over and over and over again, we're not going to be in the celestial kingdom. Now, my bishop is a good man. And my bishop is a compassionate man and couched all of this in his incredible love for the ward that he has served quite well. I think he's coming up on the end of his service. He started during COVID and we're about five years out and they're still sort of releasing bishops every five years, but he's going to be our bishop at least for a little while longer. But He's a good man and has great affection for the ward and has served the ward well. As I listened to him, however, I realized that his message is very consistent with just about every message I've heard on the subject of what we need to do in order to enter the celestial kingdom, in order to return home. And I also started thinking, It's always a message. And so I'm trying to point out, I'm not trying to single out my bishop because this is true of President Nelson. This is true of almost every message I've ever heard in general conference. This is true of church leaders over and over and over again. And the message is always, you're not doing enough. You're not, there is always more that you can do. Now, That is a true message because there is always more that we can do. There's always more that we can do in any aspect of our life. I'm happily married, but there's always more I can do to improve my marriage. I think I am an estimable father, but there's always more I can do to be a better father, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm not trying to denigrate anybody that gives this message. But what occurred to me is I have never, never once heard anybody stand at the pulpit and say, you are doing enough. You are good enough. I am really happy with what you are doing. You are on track to go to the celestial kingdom. And it's always there is more you have to do. And no matter how estimable we are, There's always more that we can do. And there's never a moment in the church where we say, you know, you're really doing great. You're on the right track. You're, you're, you know, just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing fine. We don't hear that message. And that comes, I think there are a couple of places that comes from. We have the book of Mormon that talks about woe unto him who is at ease in Zion. Woe unto him who saith all is well. So we shouldn't sing come, come ye saints, I guess. But the idea, we should never be at ease in Zion. We should never, ever be satisfied with where we are. And the problem with that message, you know, we had a conversation with my son, Samuel, who was diagnosed with scrupulosity when he was serving his mission. And at one point, Samuel was praying 15 times a day. And his therapist had to tell him, you know, that's not healthy. That's not helping you. But Samuel had sort of incorporated the message that I'm not doing enough. Nothing I do is enough. So praying 15 times a day in his mind wasn't enough at that point. Now he has sought, I think, competent and helpful mental health counseling and And I think that's a good thing, and I think his relationship to the church and his relationship to God is stronger and in a healthier place than it was when he was praying 15 times a day. But I can't help but wonder if that constant message that you're just not enough, you're just not doing enough, I think that message ultimately

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can do a great deal of damage. as I did, but anytime you would

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talk to an evangelical Christian, my trainer used to call them saved hitters, which is another sports analogy, I guess. But the idea is that these guys were saved, right? They knew they were going to heaven. And once you are born again, once you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, evangelical Christians essentially say, that's it, you're done. And you're saved no matter what you do. And we used to make fun of these people. We used to sort of mock these people as lazy or complacent. And no, no, no, you're not just saved. You have to, it's the second Nephi thing. You've just entered in by the gate and you have to endure to the end. And you don't know if you're saved until the end of your life. And That seemed to me to be a really logical conclusion when I was a missionary. But the older I've gotten, the more I start to realize just how tenuous that position is because you spend your entire life essentially in fear. Your entire life that no matter how good you have been, you are always on a knife's edge that eventually you can fall and you can stop doing enough or you can fall short of doing enough. And eventually all the good stuff that you did won't matter if you just don't make it to that finish line, having done all that you can do. That's the other Book of Mormon scripture that fuels this idea. The idea that we are saved by grace after all we can do. When in fact, I think it's been ably demonstrated by Dr. Dan McClellan, that after all we can do is a 19th century idiom, meaning despite all we can do. It's like at the end of the day, or it's just an expression to describe something that has been misinterpreted now as, okay, you need to do all these things. You need to practice really, really, really, really hard, work really hard. And then Jesus puts you over the finish line. But unless you get 99% of the way yourself with all you can do, it's not going to be enough. And I've since come to realize that that is an exceptionally toxic way to look at the gospel. And that, in fact, it is grace that saves us despite all we can do. And no matter what we do, the gap between us and God needs to be filled with Jesus Christ. And the efforts that we make to fill that gap are minuscule at best, that it's the grace of Christ that does save us. And so more and more, as I thought about this, I thought, okay, so what's the solution? Because the church, I don't think the church will ever say, okay, well, you're a saved hitter. You don't need to worry about doing anything. Like the evangelicals would tell you. But is there some way to teach the message of, yes, it's important to do good things and to live a good life and to do all of these things without creating that kind of toxic perfectionism and that kind of uncertainty that that I no longer am willing to accept in my life, if that makes sense. I have reached a point where I am no longer willing to love God or obey God out of fear or even out of duty. I want my relationship with God to be a familial relationship. If he's my heavenly father, then I want to have the kind of relationship with him that I had with my earthly father. who was, you know, expected a great deal from me and was always trying to get me to be the best person I could be, yet all along loved me unconditionally, accepted me for who I was, accepted me where I was. And when I fell short of his expectations, it wasn't that I feared him or that I feared, oh, geez, dad's going to punish me. It was, I don't want my father to be disappointed in me because I love my father and I appreciate his example and I want to emulate it. And so that's kind of where my personal faith is. So that's, I thought would be something that would be good to discuss here because you now on the outside of the church, my guess is you've dealt with a great deal of this kind of toxic perfectionism, not necessarily even in your own life, but serving in the state presidency, serving as a bishop, that people would come to talk to you and that you would counsel them, and that this was an issue that would come up

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repeatedly. Is that correct? Concern, issue,

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across all of the callings I've been involved in from elders, current presidents, well, mission leaders, certainly bishop and state presidency, and across rank and file members, people of all backgrounds and experiences, there was a common thread that a lot of people felt not good enough or weren't doing enough or felt they weren't being good enough or doing enough. When you selected this week's topic, which I think is fantastic, it's a very, very important topic to talk about because it extends to every aspect of of the individual serving member, connects with them at every level, and it connects to every aspect of the church. And when you suggested this topic, my ADHD AI brain, as I describe it, works like an AI machine within seconds. It's how my brain works so quickly. I'm coming up with all kinds of stuff from my experience, from the mission. Literally within 10 seconds, 15, 20 seconds, I've got part of it mapped out. It's strange how my brain works. It's like an AI thing. It comes with pros and cons. So when I was listening to you and certainly when you were suggesting we talk about this, which is a very important topic, and thank you for bringing it up. I'm very grateful. I thought of all kinds of things. I'll try to put them in some order as I can. If you look at the scripture, there's a scripture which is in the New Testament and, of course, in the Book of Mormon. And Elder Holland talks about it extensively in his talk titled, Be Ye Therefore Perfect, Hyphen, Eventually, which he gave back in October 2017, where he quotes that, Be ye therefore perfect, even as... Your Father in heaven is perfect. And I think in the New Testament he talks, I think he mentions some additional words like, even as I and your Father is perfect. But there is a, at least in my perspective and many other perspectives, an interpretation that this is a commandment, Jim, a commandment to be perfect. We're commanded to be perfect. I take that more than an instruction or a guidance or a piece of advice. or a recommendation or even a suggestion, I take that as a commandment. And I'm not the only one to do that. So there's a lot of pressure on us as members, not me now, but on you as a member, to be perfect. And there's been lots of talks about what that means. When you start talking about perfection in its literal sense, the church leaders, certainly locally, will say, look, you probably won't achieve perfection in this life. You can strive, use the word strive, I can, the temple recommend questions. Do you strive to, um, I can't remember the question, but I memorized them word for word, but I've forgotten them over the years, but do you strive to be, um, you know, obedience, uh, you know, with the commandments, et cetera. You know, we strive to be perfect. It's something that we pursue. We strive and you probably want it. You will rather not achieve it in this light. And then when you start talking, certainly in the, um, leadership meetings that, you know, there's members thinking that, Just accept them as they are. We talked about this on a recent podcast. Just, you know, here I am with all my faults. Accept me as I am. I'm doing the best I can. If I don't make it, God will save me in the end. You know, saved by grace after all we can do. And the church also is concerned about that. I think the Hollands also talk about that in the sense that it's not enough. The Lord won't accept you as you are. You have to change. And on the back of that, they talked about, I'll try to revise the meaning and definition of unconditional love. that in one of the talks, at least, that God won't love you unconditionally if you're not doing enough. It's very confusing. The church is very worried about members not doing enough because the entire engine of the church, that's the operation of the church, almost entirely relies and is dependent on the volunteer time and commitments of members. I mean, 90-odd percent, 95% plus volunteers. rests almost entirely, day-to-day operations, week-to-week operations, tithing, every calling you can think of across every geography, across different jurisdictions, et cetera, across different male and female groups in the church. It rests almost entirely on the volunteerism and goodwill of church members. And so the church is entirely reliant rather pretty much on that. Just going to your analogy thing as well, we just want to touch upon that. The church has repeatedly, extensively used analogies, some very inappropriate ones and some awful ones, like in a lesson I was in when I was a youth, 16, 17, where the seminary teacher or one of the teachers came into the class. It was a mixed class and was taught about the worth and value of the soul. It was actually chastity, the law of chastity. And they had some cupcakes. And as they handed them out, they kind of... squeezed the cupcakes, squashed the cupcakes in front of us and asked us if we would eat those cupcakes. I think I was the only one that said I would because, you know, I just joined the church and I was familiar with sin. So eating a squashed cupcake, I was quite fine with it. It looked okay to me. I would have eaten it, but people's reaction in the church, they were like, ooh, that's not probably a good idea.

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I've seen that done with somebody, they lick the cupcake.

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Right. If a friend or family member licked the cupcake, that wouldn't put me to fault. I'm probably not the best person to use it that way because I probably wouldn't eat it. you know, knowing my background, but most people wouldn't, of course, because they've got some, you know, manners, a little bit of class about them, which I haven't or didn't have, maybe I have now. But the idea that, you know, if you make so many bad mistakes and you end up looking, you know, like this crushed, squashed, cupcake. You know, God doesn't want that. God won't take that into his bosom. And you need to change the problem with the cupcake, because you can't make it whole. You have to throw it in the bin. So it was a terrible analogy. But right through to other analogies like, you know, the Mount of the Lord, which I, you know, is a metaphor for the temple. The mediator, which is an analogy used in general conference to address and illustrate how a friend can save someone from justice. The boat. We've heard about the boat. Is it stay in the boat? Get out the boat? I can't remember. Zion. Ship Zion. So the safety in the boat, you know, keep away from it. That'll protect you from the storm. Analogy used to illustrate that we should support others who are struggling. The airplane. Elder Uchtdorf talks about his airplanes quite a bit. Analogy used to illustrate we should Focus on what matters the most and what seems most important at the moment. Flowers is an obvious one. Baseball is another one. Soccer. I've heard them all. Some are good. Some are appropriate. I'm kind of semi-athletic, so some of it kind of, you know, I can relate to. But other thoughts that came to mind in the very 22nd span of time when I was listening to you and understanding the topic when we were at sharing it by Messenger, was that you're right. I've never heard a talk, what you said earlier, I've never heard a talk or a lesson or anyone say, you're good enough. If it's been said, I can't remember, and that's something, by the way, you would remember. You could probably remember on a hand, two hands max in your life, those talks and lessons that have been delivered, maybe 10 if you're lucky. I mean, if you've been really lucky, right? That's the kind of comment I would remember. You know, if someone said you're good enough or you've reached a certain level or to quote you, you're on track. Never heard that. In business, you know, I'm involved in business, as you know, and we have a financial metrics that we have to deliver. It's a metrics of six or seven financial metrics um, uh, areas of performance that we need to deliver profit revenue. There's two right now, right there, uh, billable, uh, you know, uh, chargeability, uh, utilization. These are other metrics in the financial. It's important in business, uh, using that as an analogy because it, you know, measuring things numerically, you can quantify them numerically and you can measure like a realistic, you know, how well you're doing. You know, it's easy to measure positivistic and quantify numerical elements of something, you know, numbers, financial things. And that's what we do in business and in project management. In the church, it's difficult. It's more of a, here's a big word for you, phenomenological. Got it? Yeah, I did my dissertation on phenomenological and positive exit systems way back. So I know a little bit about that. Took me A while to pronounce it, but we got that. And so difficult to measure unseen things are like feelings or experiences or spiritual things. Has the church measured stuff like that? I would say the church does not want to measure phenomenological things because it wants to have an element of control. And there's an element, in my opinion, and maybe a little bit tinted here from my experience, that the church, by not being definitive and quantifying things, an individual's performance, other than 100% on teaching or visiting teaching, as they called it, or 100% temple attendance or paying your tithing, it doesn't want, I don't believe it wants to, or it's in its interest to start measuring things. Because if you start measuring things and you're making, you're kicking ass, you're making progress and you think, hey, I'm on track to make a successful kingdom, it doesn't want, I don't think it wants that. I really don't. I think it wants to keep it just outside of your reach. because it wants to keep that element of control and uses the scriptures and other analogies just to keep that metric, that limit, just beyond, just outside of your reach. So you're always continuously in a status of striving. You never get there. You never arrive. You're always on the journey. And I think there's an element of the church... that actually quite likes that and uses that to the advantage. And the reason why I say that is that, my other notes here, if you give the church all of the time, it will take it and then some. And I know quite a bit about that, probably more than some, only because I've received these callings, which I didn't ask for, by the way, and didn't want, calling of a bishop, and I could have thrown him every single minute, and I'm not kidding here, into that calling, and he would have absorbed every personal call and professional hour and minute in my life. I kid you not. And the same for the state presidency, which is more spiritual than administrative and functional. The state presidency, I say, is more administrative, functional, and then a little bit more spiritual. And again, the state presidency calling, certainly the state president calling, will absorb and take every second, I kid you not, of your time. And even then, it will take more And even then in your stewardship interviews with the general authorities, you're still not doing enough. That's been my experience. So in my callings, when I've had to meet with the bishop, I'd report and ask him how I'm doing. There's always a doing well but could do better response. That's been my line. Now, I tried to break that. In fact, I did break that. When people came to me as the bishop and on the state presidency, I would say, and by this is not, just me, there are quite a few people in the church that do this. So I'm not trying to blow a trumpet, you know, like Moroni, nothing like that. All I'm trying to say is that just being a regular leader, just being ordinary, just being yourself, being honest, and seeing in a somewhat more intimate level in regards to how people serve, you know, from a bishop's perspective and state presidency, and seeing the extraordinary lengths, Jim, and sacrifices, and hours and hours and preparation and a strive for perfection that some of these individuals have. And certainly I've seen in many of the sisters where they put so much in, often at the cost of their own family. And I also include fathers and husbands where they've put the church first and they've missed out on personal time with their kids or their wife or their husband. And this husband and wife have supported them because it's the church and the church comes first. And no matter... how many hours you put in, it doesn't matter. It all counts as blessings. And like a credit score, like a financial credit score towards your celestial status or status, you know, adding up the points. And as I've been saying, it all adds up the points. And so the church will take everything it can from you in terms of service and It's often, not always, but often keeps the goal just in sight, but slightly out of reach. I'll repeat that. In sight, in close proximity, but slightly out of reach. So your fingertips are there, or you're a few feet away, it's there, you can see it, and you move, and then it moves. It's like a moving target. And I also want to highlight again that there are leaders that that have met with members and leaders who do advise members that they are good enough, that they won't achieve perfection in this life. You'll only achieve it in the next life if that, if at all. That we do the best that we can. Just be the best. Be yourself. Be authentic self. And God will make up for the rest. And so there are some of my thoughts that I have in response to what you're saying. Some other thoughts as well, real quick here. The temple... also supports the need to strive for perfection. You're always taught in the temple that, you know, there are three kingdoms. There's a celestial kingdom. There's three kingdoms within the celestial kingdom, three levels. And in order to achieve that, you've got to reach a metric, you know, be married for time and all eternity, full tithe payer, obedient, et cetera, live with exactness. Some of the motivations behind, you know, commitment and service to the church and striving to be be the best and do the best and get into the kingdom and trying to reach that goal include, not in order, but they're really important and real motivators. One is fear. You talked about fear. Some people are afraid that if they don't do enough, they're not going to make it, not going to be with the loved ones. The seal to the loved ones, if they don't strive hard enough, they're not going to be with the loved ones. Other ones is guilt. And that's been a factor that's driven me no longer. I don't feel... I don't feel that guilt anymore. Guilt used to crush me. I remember, by the way, the first month on the mission, before you got there, this was February, March 1987. We had nine baptisms. Nine. 152 missionaries, nine baptisms. I think it was March 87. President Dunn railed on us, before Banks, railed on us, and told us, I'm into the mission by six weeks. Working my ass off with Elder Rockwood, who was... an absolute machine, a machine. I shared some stories about him earlier. He's a great guy, but did not stop working even on P-days. We worked to death. And notwithstanding, we still only had nine backers. And President Dunn said to us, it's because of our worthiness that we were not, because of our not living with exactness, end quote, that we weren't worthy, that some of the missionaries were being disobedient. And yes, it was blunt. Some of them were masturbating. He used the word masturbating? He did. He did. Because some of them were masturbating and not following, living with exactness, living with obedience. That's the reason why the Lord only afforded us nine baptisms that month. And I'm shocked because I'm thinking, I can't do anything else. I'm teaching with the Spirit. I'm running back to the apartment. I'm working through my lunch hour. I'm walking around with a sandwich. I'm working half my PDs, which you're not supposed to do, by the way. I am working my ass off. I was an obedient missionary. I worked hard, right? And you know that. You and I served together. You and I worked so hard, and yet we didn't succeed much in baptisms. That was a metric. And it was because I was told that I wasn't worthy enough. Other motivators are control, position. Some people do things for position. And the ultimate one, though, of course, was to be motivated and achieve and strive for perfection because of love. And I think that also is quite dangerous because if you go to that level where you're doing anything for love, And you're not questioning anything. You've lost your critical mind. Your church broke. If a general authority says, do that. And in your mind, it's because if you do it, you're showing love. That takes over every fiber of your being. Every aspect of the soul. It owns you. If you are doing things out of love in your mind, you don't question things. You're not critical to thinking. You'll do anything. It becomes blind faith, blind love. and it's extremely dangerous. So, yeah, I think the church has the responsibility and the opportunity to address this, to have a real honest conversation about this, and it doesn't, and it doesn't for a reason. I've talked about control, keeping things just in sight but out of reach, relying on its members. It can't... unleash or um uh what's the word it can't um release or unchain is the word i'm gonna go unchain its members from the things that motivate members that drive the church forward and and so i'm very grateful you've you've selected this topic this week i think it's so important but i also think it's so dangerous because just to close my comments here on this part of the conversation I've lost count, Jim, how many times I've had members in my office who are heartbroken, who are devastated because they've lived or they thought they've lived with exactness. They've served with love. They've given everything and more. And one member of the family has gone inactive or someone's died in their family or they've lost a job or they're in debt or they feel guilty because they're not good enough. They just don't quite feel good enough. And this affects their self-esteem and their self-worth. And then we go into situations where people need mental health counseling because they don't feel good enough. And I've had to deal with that as well because the bar is set so high, they don't feel they can reach it. It's never attainable. And I think that's very dangerous and it can result in suicide and the extreme. We know that. I know a number of people who have committed suicide and learned from their spouses that they just didn't feel good enough. They felt guilty because something they were doing or not doing, and it just consumed them and it just took over their lives. And you and I, we know people where that, you know, those feelings and those very dark thoughts have affected that individual to the point where they've lost their ability to see things in perspective. So I'm so grateful that you've selected this. It's so important, so timely. Any time to talk about this is a good time. And I hope that the leaders that are listening to this, I like to think that some of them do, that they will address this and get that balance just right. Yes, work hard, but be realistic. And also say to people that you're doing great. Isn't it a good feeling when someone says, look, you're good enough. You're doing really well. Well done. No, we're talking about well done, that good and faithful servant. They talk about that in the afterlife, by the way. I mean, do you remember that? They don't talk about it in this life. The funerals, and when someone's passed away, they always quote the scripture, well done, thou good and faithful servant. They don't talk about it when you're alive. They're talking about it when you're dead. So anyway, I have strong feelings on this, as you can tell. I'll hand the time back over to you. There are

SPEAKER_01: 35:21

my thoughts. They're good thoughts. And I just need to correct at one point where I said I remember that. I was not on my mission in March 1987, but I remember a month, and I'm thinking it's in 1988, that we only had nine baptisms. And I remember President Banks, who was far gentler than President Dunn, still railing on us. It was in the middle of the, remember the Together Forever video and tapes? I do. The church bought newspaper ads in major newspapers all throughout Scotland and said, call this number and get a free tape. And President Banks said, right after that, nobody called. It didn't go anywhere. And President Banks blamed us. He says, you were all hoping this would all be manna from heaven. And so you just stopped working. And I went, well, no, I didn't stop worshiping. How can I stop working? I'm going to go to hell if I stop working. You know, that whole guilt and fear thing was all there. But yeah, the blame was on us. Also, at one point, we made a covenant. I think it was framed as a covenant with the Lord. It was SEM 40. Do you remember SEM 40? I do. We made a covenant. 40 baptisms in one month. And this was several months in advance. And we promised that if we do this, we, you know, we are going to bind the Lord because the doctrine and covenant says, I, the Lord, am bound when you do what I say. But if you do not what I say, ye have no promise.

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I

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remember

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that campaign very clearly. Yep.

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And do you remember what happened?

SPEAKER_02: 37:19

I remember you were in, we're in the same zone together in Manasseh. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, we achieved our, in our zone, we achieved our number. We ended up going down to the mission home to watch a video. Ben-Hur. Neil. Ben-Hur. Mike, can you believe that? Ben-Hur. Holy frick. I mean, Ben-Hur. It could have been Star Wars or something, but it can't even give us a decent movie.

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I have great affection for Charlton Heston, so I didn't mind.

SPEAKER_02: 37:52

Oh, yeah. To me, it was just give me a break from religion. Remember, I'm the non-classy convert to the church. I would have loved Star Wars. When I heard Ben, yeah, I thought it was a load of crap. I thought I'd been scammed. But anyway, I didn't question it. I kept my thoughts to myself, went down there, had a meal, and watched Ben flipping her.

SPEAKER_01: 38:14

Well... Yeah, that's all right.

SPEAKER_00: 38:17

It's okay. It's all right.

SPEAKER_01: 38:19

Mission-wide, we fell short. We didn't get 40 baptisms. I think we barely got 30 baptisms.

SPEAKER_02: 38:27

You're right. We made it as a zone. I remember because going down with you, I think, but we didn't make it as a mission for sure. Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 38:33

Yeah. And so the sense was, I think we were a little bit inoculated from that because we were the top baptizing zone. But we, I mean, the kind of guilt, again, that was sort of heaped on us because we just, clearly the Lord didn't fall short, so it must have been us. We stopped

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masturbating that month.

SPEAKER_01: 39:03

I'm not going there. I'm not going there at all.

SPEAKER_02: 39:09

That's thrown you a little bit, hasn't it? It's

SPEAKER_01: 39:11

thrown me a little bit, but So the whole idea, this whole idea in the church, as you were talking, I started thinking about one of the things that you've said on a number of occasions is that when you left the church, you received a letter saying, okay, your records are gone. You're not a member anymore. And the letter didn't say anything about thank you for your service or anything. You know, we so appreciate and oh, we'll miss you. And I mean, none of that. And so what it meant essentially was that everything you had done up to that point, all of that time that had been committed to building the kingdom and committed to helping the church, the church, it didn't happen. It didn't exist. It had no value whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02: 40:04

It never, all is to find done. All the stuff I've done, all the time, all the effort, all the sacrifice, all the hours away from my family. And I'm not trying to play the violin here. That never happened.

SPEAKER_01: 40:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:19

In the churches.

SPEAKER_01: 40:20

Well, it's not. And you compare that, for instance, to people who conclude their military service. And they are constantly praised, rightfully so. People thank them for their service. They're asked to stand at sporting events and let's acknowledge all of our veterans. And these are people who are not actively serving in the military now, but the service that they gave still has value, is still worthy of respect. And that is not the case in the church. If you live an entirely faithful life, And then at the age of 85, decide, oh, you know what? I have some problems with the church and you step away. It's as if you had never been a member of the church. It's as if that entire lifetime of service is just flushed down the memory hole, just didn't happen, just didn't matter. And, you know, I was thinking about this to some degree. This last weekend, I was up in Port Angeles, Washington, which is where my wife grew up, and it's where my father-in-law was just buried after a long battle with Parkinson's disease. He passed away, and we went up to his funeral. And some of the most spiritual church meetings, if not the most spiritual church meetings, that I've ever experienced have all been funerals. Because it's at a funeral when you take stock of an entire person's life. And there were plenty of things said at this funeral about how Richard Sidwell has lived a good life and is on his way to the celestial kingdom and is going to be reunited with his with his wife. And, you know, all of a sudden it's okay. Yes, he's arrived. He's done enough. And maybe that's one of the reasons why they're so satisfying is that there isn't any room for the kind of guilt and fear because he's done, you know, his mortal journey is over. And so we, we, um, We now assign him, essentially, a spot in the celestial kingdom and say, he's done enough. I have never been to a funeral, even somebody who has not necessarily lived the kind of exemplary life that would get them any sort of praise in the church while they were alive. Those funerals still have that same kind of spirit to them where they say, yes, well, they've done enough and they're good enough. And There's something– I've heard many people say it's too bad that you have to wait until you're dead for people to say nice things about you. And I think there's some truth in that. But I think it's also too bad that you have to wait until you're dead to have people say God accepts your offering. God accepts who you are. God accepts what you've done. You've lived a life. that god appreciates we don't ever say that when people are alive unless the one exception to that is unless you are a member of the first presidency or the quorum of the 12th right we're willing to praise to high heaven church leaders and sort of put them on a pedestal and talk about essentially how they're perfect or as close to perfect as we can possibly come but we won't do that for rank and file members of the church until they die. And I think more and more, and I've said this kind of thing many times on this podcast, but more and more, we're seeing the fact that the old playbook just doesn't work anymore because that kind of guilt, that kind of fear, that kind of, if you don't go on a mission, you're in serious trouble. If you don't, Get married in the temple, you're going to fall short. The scaremongering, the fearmongering that you need to make sure that you're cutting it and that you continually reach for that thing that is just out of reach or you're going to be sorry. That kind of fear and guilt just isn't working anymore for the rising generation. It just isn't. They hear that and they go, oh, really? Well, let's see. I mean, the numbers that we are seeing of people who are leaving, particularly people who leave as soon as they turn 18, some estimates put it as high as 75% of church members, by the time they reach 18, they're saying, I'm kind of done. I'm kind of done being told I'm not enough. I'm kind of done being told I'm not good enough. I'm done being told that I continually fall short no matter how much I do, no matter how much I reach. And that thing is still just a few feet away. I'm tired of it. I'm done with it. I don't want to do that anymore. And they step away. And a lot of them are happier when they do that. And one of the things that I see online all the time is, oh, you've left the church, so you obviously aren't happy and you're miserable and clearly you don't even know what happiness is. And the people who've left saying, what are you talking about? I'm happier than I've ever been. No, no, no, you must be lying. It's sort of the flip side to, it's kind of the toxic flip side to this idea of, okay, we want you to do better. And then when somebody says, this isn't working for me, it's, well, clearly, You're a terrible person. Clearly you're miserable. I mean, you have experienced this firsthand. All the people would have told you, you've gone off the rails and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can never be happy. And it's just the problem with that is it's just not true. And if the only thing that we have to keep people in the church is the constant fear of what would happen if they stepped away. then the church is in serious trouble because people are calling that bluff. People are saying, oh, really? I'm going to be miserable? Well, let me see. And then they leave and discover, you know what? God still loves me. I'm still capable of happiness. I'm still capable of having a wonderful family. I'm still capable. I still have all the goodness that the church helped. And I absolutely believe the church helps people. cultivate that kind of goodness in their lives. But when they leave, that goodness doesn't just completely evaporate. It doesn't belong to the church. It belongs to the person and the person keeps it, whether they're in or out of the church. And so I guess where I am, I'm coming down on all this, where I land on all this is we need to start preaching a positive message, a message of Here's not what you should be afraid of if you leave, but what joy and beauty and wonder are there for you if you stay. People talk about in business the carrot and the stick. You can move forward with a carrot, dangling a carrot in front of the horse, or with a stick hitting the horse in the behind over and over again. And we have relied so much on the stick. that I'm not even sure what the carrots are anymore in terms of, geesh, this is something I can't access outside the church. And the reality is that people can find happiness outside the church and we need to stop demonizing them for doing that. And we need to emphasize, okay, here's all the great things that you have when you are in the church. Here's all the wonderful sense of community, the wonderful collective spiritual growth as you help each other and you build up each other, the reality that you know you have, that the church has your back, which is an experience that I've had time and again. And apparently there are people who just don't believe that's enough. It somehow has to be exclusive. It has to be, and nobody else would ever have your back if you left the church. And there's no other possible way you could find community if you left the church. We just need to let that go. And I think people are terrified of doing that because they think, well, then why will people keep going to church? And if fear is the only thing keeping people going to church, then we have to repent as a church and find ways that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ itself is enough. Not the fear of punishment, not the fear of condemnation, but just the joy that comes from embracing the principles of the gospel. That is enough. And if people make a different choice, that is their choice. And condemning them and fearing them and othering them is not something we ought to be engaged in doing. And that seems to be something that we're doing more and more and more. And it just makes me sad. I want to see that change. I want to be able to go to church because I want to go to church and love to go to church and experience the blessings that come from worshiping with other believers, not because I'm terrified of what might happen if I don't. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 50:54

Absolutely. I'm listening with great interest and intent. You make some really powerful points. As I'm listening to you, my mind catches hold of the talk that Elder Ballard gave in 2016 titled, To Whom Shall We Go? You know, you're talking about the carrot, right? We're talking about the church using guilt and fear, you know, to motivate us because there's some real truth to that. It might sound like me, who's outside the church, as being negative against the church again, but The truth is, the reality is that the church knows, it's in the guilt business, in my opinion. It knows how to use guilt and fear to motivate and change behavior in the church. It really does. The evidence is pretty overwhelming, pretty compelling. I'm not saying it does that all the time. It doesn't. There are great leaders in the church that Do what we said earlier. I want to highlight this again, where they meet with members or leaders and they say to them, you know, they remind the members or the leaders that you are good enough. You're doing great. Well done. You're on track. And they focus on the positive. And those conversations do happen and they happen often, but not enough. The pulpit there with Ella Ballard gave that talk, which is quite interesting. foreboding, I think, and a little bit threatening, depending on your perspective, even implying that if you don't serve 100% here in the church, well, that's a problem in itself. We can change you, et cetera. And if you decide to leave, where will you go? He says here, if any of you is faltering in your faith, including people like feeling guilty, not good enough, repenting, but not feeling forgiven, We've not mentioned that in this comment, in our conversation here, where people actually repent, like just fast constantly, sacrifice, repent, repent, repent, because they feel so bad about something, and yet they don't feel that forgiveness. But it says here, if any of you is faltering in your faith, I ask you the same question that Peter asked, to whom shall you go? If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored church of Jesus Christ of Latin saints, where will you go? What will you do? A decision to walk no more with church members and with the Lord's leaders will have a long-term impact that cannot always be seen right now. Depending on your perspective, that can be interpreted as being threatening, using guilt, using fear. Basically, you're not going to get to where you need to be. You're not going to get back to God without us. You need us. So you just get your head down, muck in, follow the rules. Be the best, do better, be better. You're not quite good enough right now, but even if, regardless, you can't go anywhere. The second thing I want to just comment on as well, I don't think this mindset in the church has always been like that, Jim. And so to counter this culture in the church of this culture of guilt and fear and not quite good enough, in April... On April 3rd, 1836, according to Truman Madsen, the tapes that I used to listen to and try to speak like Truman Madsen on the doorsteps there for extra spirituality and extra baptisms, which never worked, by the way, and only did that on a few doors. Jesus Christ accepted the Kirtland Temple in Ohio as his house, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The event occurred during a vision to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Now, there's actually a half-hour tape discussion from Truman Madsen, and he taught, I remember it, I've not heard it for years and years, but I remember Truman Madsen saying that Joseph Smith had this vision that the Lord had finally, finally accepted the Kirtland Temple and accepted, and I remember this is on the tape, accepted all the effort and the sacrifice, physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual sacrifice that the saints had invested into building that temple, including but not limited to Joseph Smith's effort and leadership. And Joseph also saw that as an acknowledgement that the Lord had accepted him, quote, personally as his prophet on the earth. I remember those words. I'm close to quoting, I know I am. It was an important vision and experience for Joseph Smith as he reported it. And he also tied that to a level of forgiveness from the mistakes that he'd made previously, different mistakes as a prophet, that the Lord had accepted his work, him as a prophet, the saints, and that the Kirtland Temple was a manifestation that the saints had done well. Well done, thou good and faithful saint, saints. Thou hast done well. And the temple was a physical manifestation of the great outpouring of sacrifice and effort and physical labor and financial labor and loss that the members had experienced in building that Kirtland Temple. I remember that on the Truman tapes. I don't think that's an isolated case. I do believe that historically there has been moments where the church has done well, the leaders have said so, they've made a lot of progress, and they've acknowledged people for their progress in this life. But I think the church has, it's a very different church to when Joe Smith was around, as you know. I don't know if you would recognize it today. But the church has got an imbalance between guilt and fear and pressure and not enough on, to your point, promoting and extolling the positive aspects of the church in regards to teaching, reminding members that they're just wonderful. And let's face it, the strength of the church almost entirely is in the strength of its members. We've said this repeatedly, when the church allows its members to serve naturally, freely, with love, without constraint, without measurements, without those ties, without the fear and the guilt, oh boy, there's no other organization on this planet that can serve with love on this planet like members of the church. I know that. I'm not even in the church. You know that because you're in the church and you've experienced this as much as, if not more than I have, right? I think the church leaders hold it back. They've got the reins on the controls, like using analogy, on the horses and they're constraining it and limiting the church members. Let the members go for it. It's that talk that we heard, isn't it? Here's the problem with the church. If you let the members serve as they please, then do they need the church, right? If they serve with complete openness and freeness and spirit and following the spirit, wherever the spirit takes them, and they don't need programs or this or that or these controls or that particular thing to be measured by, and they're constrained, if they're unshackled, then the church doesn't have the control. You unshackle a horse, it's free to do what it will, right? And so the church won't ever do that, sadly, in my opinion. It will never unshackle its members. It will always have a system of fear and guilt. I don't see it changing. I don't think the church will, even if they hear these comments, I don't think they will do anything about them because it doesn't want to lose control. And it also, as members say, highlight the situations where people leave and their lives go up the rail, what do they say? They say, well, look, I told you so. This is what happens when you leave, quote, the safety and security of the gospel. That's the message. That's the tone. That's the reminder that you'll fail without the church. You're nothing without the church. You'll fail. You're not good enough with the church. Then you can be all these great things. And that's the hold that it has on the members. I don't accept it anymore. I don't believe that. I don't have the guilt that I used to have. You know, I beat myself up to death, you know, over missing the most. I slept in twice on the mission. I felt awful. A companion made me feel like shit. I felt like crap. And I carried that with me for a full day. And I vowed never to sleep in again. I slept in one of the time. That wasn't my fault. but still felt guilty. So I don't know. I just don't see the church. I think it's great to have this conversation. I'm hopeful, positive. I think the church will reference it, not this conversation, will reference some of the positive things that the church members do and may reference it that you're doing well, but it won't go beyond that because it needs to maintain a level of control. And so that's, you know, they're my, concluding comments or remarks at this stage.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:20

Well, I appreciate that. As I listen to you and you say, I don't think the church is ever going to change on this, I'm reminded of... I'm not sure who said it. My father used to quote it a lot, but I don't think he's the first person to say it. What he would say is, things that can't go on forever stop. They eventually stop. And I don't think the kind of guilt and fear that is being used to try and keep people in the boat, it's not working. It can't go on forever. So eventually it's going to have to stop. We're going to have to find another way. And I think the good news is that there is another way, that there are wonderful positives about the church that can be used to help build people, not scare them. to help support them, you know, not keep them unsettled out of fear and terror that one false step and it's all over for them. And they're just another crushed or licked cupcake. But the other thing is that as we talk about this, I am mindful of the people who listen to this, who are a wonderful audience out there that listens to these podcasts. Because what I am discovering is that a lot of these people are in what I now sort of call the borderlands of the church. There are people who are on the edge of the inside, or there are people who have left but still have connections to the church. There are people on the borders of the church, no matter which side they're on. And I think very often there are people who have dealt with this firsthand. in very painful and profound ways. And I want to say to them, I think you're good enough. I think you're wonderful. I think the fact that you still choose to engage with the church, however you choose to engage with it, even if it doesn't mean that you're engaging as a fully active member, the fact that you still care, the fact that you're still interested, the fact that you still have some kind of connection, I think it speaks well for you. I think it means that there is something good and decent and wonderful about what you are doing and how you are choosing to live your life. So you may not ever hear it from a general authority or an apostle or a prophet. You may not hear it from your bishop if you go to church. But I think you're wonderful. I think you're good enough. And more importantly, I think your heavenly father believes you're good enough. I truly believe that God loves all of his children and that it doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that you can just sit and eat bonbons all day. But I don't think anybody does that. That's the thing. is that I think everybody, I have yet to meet, I remember talking to somebody who phrased it this way, I have yet to meet a lazy person. I meet people who are misguided, who focus their attention on things maybe they shouldn't, or, you know, you could describe it, but people pursue a course that tries to bring them happiness and that tries to bring them joy. And sometimes that course isn't in the church. But whatever it is, whoever you are, God loves you. He loves you as much as he loves Russell M. Nelson. He loves you as much as he's loved anybody that has ever walked the face of this earth. You are as much a child of God as anyone else who has ever lived. That, I think, is one of the central, most powerful messages of the church, is that we really are. We are all children of God. We all have that divine spark. And leaning into that positive, wonderful message, I think, is the way the church goes forward, is the way the church grows, that the church grows on a culture of love and embracing the innate, central worth of every child of God. And that we leave fear behind. And I don't know when it will happen or how it will happen, but I am confident that it will. So those are my concluding thoughts. Do you want to issue a quick rebuttal before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:15

Other than to say I cannot improve upon what you've just said.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:18

Well, thank you very much. And you have said many profound things here that I think are going to resonate with many people who are listening because they resonated with me. And hopefully going forward, we can help to build this kind of positive, affirming faith and leave the fear behind. So with that, we conclude another episode of Inside Out. Thank you very much for joining us, and we hope you will join us next time. And thank you very much, Ian.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:51

Thank you, Hugh, Jim.