Are We The Baddies?

Ian and Jim discuss America's abandonment of Ukraine and what the Church's role ought to be as the world devolves into chaos. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes. I'm here with the magnanimous Mr. Jim Bennett.

SPEAKER_01: 0:26

Hello. I magnanimously welcome you as well to this latest episode because that's how magnanimous I am.

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

You are certainly magnanimous, for sure. And I'm going to do a lot more research on big words. In the future, I'm going to come with some big words and I... I'd be interested to see if you will know what those words are to describe you. So, because you're very good at the big words, and I thought I was good, but I need to do a little bit of training there, a little bit of research in there. And we'll continue to have fun describing each other with these big words. Chip, it's so good to be with you. I always look forward to these conversations. What drives me is, you know, the need to help others, right? in some way, in some form, in some fashion. I'm encouraged by the response we get from many of our listeners that the podcasts that we're doing are helpful in some form. We try to stay on track in terms of, you know, dealing with the church issues and the doctrine and the history and low social aspects of the church. And of course, sometimes we move slightly outside of the main periphery of our scope of our podcast, which I think is also very good. And at times we talk about politics and we talk about politics because, and world affairs, because these things are important to us personally and our families. And we have people in our friendships and in our work who also have strong opinions on politics and religion. And it's important. I think it's important to be able to have these conversations about the relationship between the church and politics and what's going on in the world. And it's important to have civil discourse, to be respectful, be kind. We're not going to agree on everything. There's, you know, across all this is probably a wide band of political views and thoughts. And that's great. I think it's important to have your own views, whether you're Republican or Democrat, whether you're Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, like in the UK. You can hold any view you want. We live in mostly a free world, not entirely. We'll talk about that, I think, on the podcast and what's going on there, about freedom, liberty and family. I'm looking forward to getting into that. But it's important, I think, to, if you feel so strongly as I do and you do about certain things, things that are going on in the world, then it's important to be able to talk about that and understand that in the context of the church. And we've said repeatedly that there are major events happening in the world. You know, Ukraine, the Middle East, you know, North Korea, Iran, you know, UK, major issues in the UK in terms of social challenges, a lot of issues in the US. We have big issues here in Canada. There's a lot of the issues that we talk about span the world. They're not just unique to these countries, but they affect the world like immigration, economy, jobs. These are things that impact people on a very serious and a very personal level. And I have strong feelings like you and many others do on certain things, especially when it impacts global events happen and how that impacts people. us here locally in Canada or in the US or anywhere. So these are significant events and occurrences happening in the world. And I still, even though I'm outside the church, I look to the church. I look to the church leadership to have a position on certain things, to come out and speak up about really important things that are going on. And there's something happened recently that really, really bothers me. And as I said earlier before we did this podcast, With the Trump administration, I think I got to the point where I was saying to myself, nothing surprises me anymore. And I wake up the next day or into the next day, and lo and behold, something has happened. And it's actually shocked me or surprised me. And so the one thing I want to... Looking forward to having this conversation with you about... is something that happened uh in the last um in the last couple days so uh you know the trump administration is into what how many weeks now is it four five weeks now

SPEAKER_01: 4:56

uh january 20th again it's about a month or a

SPEAKER_00: 5:00

little more a little more than a month so trump uh came into that position in its entirety about a month ago. And a lot's happened. I'm sure you'll agree. A lot has happened in the last month or so. And, you know, a lot of that, those decisions, a lot of those actions have impacted the United States significantly. Certainly impacting us appearing in Canada, like the tariffs, for example. That's a big topic right now with Mexico and Canada and all these tariffs and there's other decisions that are affecting the United States population but there are decisions that have been made that are affecting the relationships between America and the rest of the world and again I want to highlight the need for my hope that The church has some position. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is, as they claim, is the only true church upon the face of the earth and in regular contact with God. And presumably, God is watching what's going on in the world and has an opinion, a thought even, an idea, a suggestion, something to say. to the prophet, President Nelson, on the earth about what the heck is going on in the world. So what is, and I asked you if we could talk about this today because I feel so strongly and even if I have, I hope our listeners will get some of this, but I really do, but I know it will make me feel better to get certain things off my chest. And so recently there's been a United Nations vote. I want to talk about the Ukraine situation as the thing that's really important unhinged me. I'll use that word. I feel unhinged right now because America has done something that I did not expect. And I'm quite shocked and very shocked and stunned, actually. So the US, in a recent series of United Nations votes on condemning Russia for its illegal and naked aggression against Ukraine and invading Ukraine three years ago, almost three years ago and a few days, where a vote was tabled to condemn Russia's actions and aggression. The U.S., in these two key votes, certainly, sided with Russia in the United Nations to mark this third anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And it also highlights Trump's position changes on the stance of the wall. First, the first one was that the US opposed a European-drafted resolution condemning Russia's actions and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity. America voted the same way as Russia and other countries, including North Korea and Belarus, at the United Nations General Assembly. That was in New York. Then the US drafted and voted for a resolution at the United Nations Security Council, which called for an end to the conflict, but contained no criticism of Russia. And of course, the Security Council passed the resolution, but two key US allies, UK and France, abstained after their attempts to amend the wording. The main one for me was the motion that was tabled to condemn Russia's actions. And for me, based on reliable, trusted information, verifiable, trusted, not misinformation or disinformation, but reliable information that Russia did in fact invade Ukraine illegally, breaking all international rules, invaded a sovereign nation without provocation. There's another conversation. I can argue against that if you want. But it took the act to invade Ukraine. And we've seen extraordinary death and destruction from that decision, from the act. It's been going on for three years. On both sides, there's been hundreds of thousands of deaths. Unnecessary. Could have been avoided. But Russia, because of its... And Putin's personal... aspirations, and I've researched this, that it's reliable to expand and reabsorb those countries back into the Russian Empire. Imperialism. Naked imperialism. Not to necessarily fight against NATO's expansion. That could be a part of it. I think it is a part of it. But based on my research, Putin is driven by by this idealistic approach of restoring Russia's greatness and seeing Ukraine historically as it was. I mean, I can understand this historical relationship or some of the between Ukraine and Russia and trying to recover Ukraine as a lost territory or geography that originally was part of Russia or part of Russia's culture. And the argument for doing that is all kinds of arguments, like destroying the Nazi influence there, protecting Russian-speaking individuals in Ukraine, etc. There may or may not be some truth to that, but Putin's main focus is to expand and reabsorb and expand the Russian influence there by taking over Ukraine, and he won't stop there. Trump thinks it's about land, thinks that we can solve this by concessions, by giving land, but Putin's ambitions are greater than just land. It's absorbing the entire country, its culture, its people, and its land back into the fold. And so it took this decision to invade Ukraine, The world, most of the world at that time, except for North Korea, Russia, of course, Tehran, Iran, and Belarus, condemned and continue to condemn Putin's decision, Russia's actions there. And so this opportunity, especially on the anniversary of the third year, again, all these thousands of people have died. And by the way, Russia kidnapped, physically, children and took them into Russia. That has been verified. And breaking rules around war and using bombs and munitions that they're not supposed to, and in some cases, allegations of chemical weapons, albeit on a small scale, which, again, that needs to be investigated. So absolutely terrible, awful, illegal actions destruction caused by the decision. And an opportunity over the last few days to condemn Russia for its decisions and its actions. And now we have America who is now sided essentially with Russia and with North Korea and with Belarus. And I just can't believe that. And so That shocks me, but also equally as shocking is where's the church on this? Where's the leadership? Does the church have an opinion on this? You know, what's the right thing to do? Is it to stand up and speak up and speak out as the church? They say, no, we condemn Russia's actions. We do not agree with the president of the United States of America who's sided with Russia. Where's the church on this? What about the principles in the Book of Mormon on freedom, liberty, family, for doing the right thing? I did a little bit of research and there is extensive material that the church has to protect religious freedom, to protect the basic freedoms of people and the rights of people and to respect human rights. The church is an amazing organization at speaking up for stuff like that. and going to these different events and organizations and promoting the need and value of freedoms, including religious freedoms. And as the mouthpiece of the earth, President Nelson, what is God saying to President Nelson on this? Does God have an opinion as he communicated that to President Nelson? Where's the church leadership position on this? Why can't we speak up and condemn this decision by the President of the United States, who represents, obviously, America. You could tell in my tone I feel very angry, actually, upset and disappointed, because it's, you know, by being silent, you know, we are, the Church says if you're silent, then you're actually, you're part of the, you know, you're part of the decision. You condone it in some way, or you're not disagreeing with it. So, Anyway, I appreciate being able to get this off my chest, vent this. Would love to get your opinion on this and what you think is going on. We try our best to remain focused on the scope of the Inside Out, to focus predominantly on the church. But of course, politics, global affairs, they impact us, they impact the church. And the church, and I'll close my opening comments on this, the church must, should, have a position on these issues. And I'm hoping that we'll hear from the president of the church in due course, that we will read something or see something, even in a press release. Anyway, you've been very patient with my opening remarks. I'll stop and hand the time over and ask you, do you feel as strong as I do? Am I completely out to lunch here? Are my feelings misplaced? Do I feels so strong unnecessarily. But what are your thoughts on this and in respect to the church taking a position on some of this stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 15:47

Well, I have many. And I don't think that this is outside the scope of this podcast. As I've talked many times about when we've talked about Trump, it's not just to express political opinions. It's to, as you describe, demonstrate what kind of impact this is having on the church and also on the faith of people in the church. Trump every day is a trial of my faith. He's not just an odious, terrible, dictator-like authoritarian leader, and he is all of those things. But he is a trial of my faith because I believe this is the church of Jesus Christ and I've been taught all my life that we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost at the age of eight when we are confirmed members of the church, that we have a unique spirit of discernment that the rest of the world does not have. And if that's true, how is it possible that we could have thrown in in such large numbers with such a terrible, odious man. And so it continues to be a trial of my faith that my fellow Latter-day Saints not only are not disturbed by this, but they applaud this, that they are embracing this, that they see Trump as a manifestation of God, not an enemy to him. When I think it's absolutely clear that he is an enemy to all things that are good, that he's an enemy to decency, to honesty, to integrity. All of the values that have been inculcated in me as a result of my membership in the church are values that Trump disdains and has absolutely no use for. So I just want to say, as you say, well, you know, we have to talk politics, and I know we usually talk about the church. To me, they are inseparable. You know, the Doctrine and Covenants talks about that The spiritual and the temporal are inseparable. In the case of Trump, I'd say the political and the religious are inseparable because the implications of the fact that Latter-day Saints see Trump positively and embrace and support him, that is a continuing trial of my faith on a daily basis. I got a text from my sister yesterday saying, oh, I really wish Dad were still here. My father were still here. Because somehow he might be able to make sense of this. And it's interesting. This is the first podcast you've recorded since I got back from Peru. I was in Peru for five days with the Tabernacle Choir on Temple Square. And we performed. It was just a magnificent experience all the way around. And we performed in this massive stadium. that this Estadio Nacional right in Lima, Peru, and there were over 30,000 people that were in attendance. Many of them had lined up early in the day and standing in the summer heat. It's summer down there. And they were just a raucous and wonderfully appreciative crowd. I felt a little bit like I was a rock star. I felt like Freddie Mercury at Live Aid. It was just a lot of fun. But it was also interesting. We did two concerts when we were over there. One was the big concert on Saturday night, but the other one was a, they call it the VIP concert. And it was for Peruvian officials. And bigwigs, and I don't know the political structures of Peruvian government, but apparently a lot of the heavy hitters were in that room. But on the front row of that room were Mitt and Ann Romney. They had come, and my understanding is they are working with the church in terms of establishing relationships with governments internationally. And they were there the entire time. I only saw Mitt at that concert, but Ann Romney went on some of the sightseeing expeditions with the choir. And so they were there the entire time we were. And I was one of a handful of choir members that was selected to do kind of a meet and greet afterwards. And I had the opportunity to actually go shake Mitt Romney's hand. I've met him several times before. I reminded him of that. He acted like he remembered me. I'm pretty sure he didn't. But that's okay. I mean, he meets... My father always used to say, when you're in politics, you can never say, nice to meet you. Because then they will always say, I met you and I talked to you 14 years ago. Don't you remember? So Mitt was very gracious. And I told him a couple of things. One of the things I said to him was, I don't think you appreciate... I don't think you know how much... the Bennett family appreciated your vote to convict Trump in the first impeachment trial. Because that, when you did that, it felt like dad was still with us. It felt like that's something my father would have done and you had the courage to do it. And I told him, I consider that the greatest act of political courage I have seen or expect to see in my lifetime. And he seemed to be touched by that. And Anne was definitely touched by that. And she was willing to go off and say, I don't understand. Don't people realize this is wicked King Noah? Can't they see Trump for who he is? And Mitt was a bit more circumspect. I think he recognizes that anything he says, even privately, has the potential of showing up on the front page of the New York Times. But Mitt, you know, so I had that conversation with him. And what I got a sense of in Peru, oh, and the other thing that happened in Peru is we had a sacrament meeting right before we left. And Elder Suarez spoke of the Quorum of the Twelve. He was there the entire time. He came to the concert. The concert was narrated entirely in Spanish. Most of the songs we sang were in Spanish. And we had a teleprompter that had the words written out phonetically so that we wouldn't mispronounce them. But Elder Suarez gave a talk and I confess I was a little disappointed in Elder Suarez's talk because there was nothing in his talk that you and I and anybody that listens to General Conference or listens to Sunday School or whatever else it is, hasn't heard a million times before. I mean, it was very nice and pleasant talk. And I had somebody say, oh, aren't we blessed to have an apostle speak to us? And I'm like, well, yes. And wouldn't it be nice if he actually said something? There was just no real substance to it. And as I consider that and I thought about that, I want to answer your questions. Based on that experience, does the church have an opinion? Why isn't the church speaking out? And I think the answer to that question is I think the church probably has many opinions and many strong opinions. And I think they see themselves as being shackled, is maybe too strong a word, but being limited in terms of what they feel they can say. in an international church. What I got from Mitt Romney, what I got from just the whole Peru experience is that the church is trying very hard to establish itself as an international church. On paper, we have more members outside of the United States than we have inside the United States. And so I think we can make the case that we are an international church, but we are not perceived that way. I think, internationally. We continue to be perceived as an American church. And I think in many ways, we really still are an American church. Culturally, we are an American church. Culturally, the American influence is pervasive no matter where you go. And I think the church leaders are trying very hard to dial that back. And I think that It's a mixed bag as to whether they're succeeding. So I think that is the reason why we're not hearing more pointed opinions, is that I think they think that will reinforce the idea of the American church. So I offer that by way of explanation, not by way of excuse. Because I'm with you. I'm 100% with you. They need to be speaking out about this because... It's just so morally contemptible to be on the side of the dictators, to be on the side of the communists. It's stunning. You go back in church history. You don't have to go very far back. We're not talking the times of Joseph Smith. We're talking mid to late 20th century history where church leaders would get up in conference. I've got a series of quotes here. As Jeff Benson, I think, was one, wasn't he? Oh, jeez, yes. President Benson, his entire ministry in the Quorum of the Twelve was focused on condemning communism. Here's some quotes. He says, We must ever keep in mind that collectivized control over private property is not the United Order but is socialism, which is part of the communist strategy. And no true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist. or support programs leading in that direction. He wrote in a book, We must be vigilant in exposing and opposing communism in all its forms, for it seeks to destroy faith in God and to make the state supreme. J. Raymond Clarke says, Communism and socialism are state slavery. No matter what you call it, communism, socialism, the welfare state, or any other name, it is enslaving the soul of man. Bruce R. McConkie, communism is Satan's counterfeit for the gospel plan, and it is an avowed enemy of the God of the land. And I could go on and on and on. They were very outspoken about this. Well, when Mitt Romney ran for president in 2012, he said that Russia was our biggest enemy. foe on the international stage. And he was mocked by President Obama in the debate. He says, yeah, the 80s called. They want their foreign policy back. And the Republican Party was mocked and ridiculed for being opposed to Russia, being opposed to communism. Now, Russia now does not overtly claim to be a communist nation anymore now that the Soviet Union has fallen. But nothing has changed. And in fact, Vladimir Putin is more of an authoritarian than any Russian leader, with maybe the exception of Joseph Stalin. All the communist leaders did was use communism as a pretext for an authoritarian dictatorship. And now Putin just doesn't even use the pretext anymore. Putin is open with it. He's a dictator. He's an authoritarian. Now, China is still... a communist government, although there have been a lot of market reforms. It's not what it was in its Maoist heyday. But North Korea is a Stalinist communist state. These are all the countries now that America is now aligned with, that America voted with. We have turned our backs on NATO. When you talk about, well, jeez, they're not going to get NATO membership. NATO has been rendered irrelevant by Donald Trump. Donald Trump has told NATO that since they're not paying their dues, he thinks that they pay some fee to be part of NATO when that's not how it works. But he said, well, I'm going to tell Russia they can do whatever they want. That's a direct quote from the president of the United States. I mean, this is so flagrantly wrong. This is so disturbing. This is so unnerving. And it is so immoral. It's not just a political disagreement. We're not talking about legitimate policy differences. We are talking about good versus evil. We are talking about aligning with what Bruce R. McConkie called the avowed enemy of the God of the land. We are talking about about the United States being the bad guys. I'm reminded of this skit on British television. I don't know what the program was, but it's two Nazi SS officers. And one of them says, well, why do we have a skull on our caps? Isn't that disturbing to you? Are we the baddies? He says, it feels like we're the baddies. And they talk about that over and over again, and it's played for laughs. But I look at what's happening on the international stage now, and we're the baddies. America is one of the baddies. George W. Bush, after 9-11, described the axis of evil, and he put North Korea in the axis of evil. These are evil nations. Well, we're now part of the axis of evil. We're lining up with those guys. We're lining up with the baddies. We're not lining up with the good guys. We're not lining up with the people who have been our allies since World War II. It's just up is down, black is white, and it's Latter-day Saints who are cheering it on. This is what's breaking my heart. It's the Mormons who are going against, I mean, all the people who support Trump also would tell you that they adore Ezra Taft Benson and they adore the far-right ideology that church leaders have tried to distance themselves from, but which was, you know, espoused by Ezra Taft Benson, by J. Reuben Clark, by Spencer W. Kimball. I have a quote here, communism is a godless philosophy that seeks to destroy man's agency and enslave him to the state. That was in 1977. I mean, that wasn't in the 19th century. That's recent enough that most people who are alive today were alive when that was said. I mean, this is And we have just abandoned all of this as a church. We have moved away from this. And church leaders, I do think, I am told repeatedly, and I believe it, that behind the scenes, church leaders are not Trump fans. They recognize how problematic Donald Trump is. I've had actually multiple people tell me that not a single member of the Quorum of the Twelve or the First Presidency voted for Donald Trump. I can't confirm that. That's speculation. But if all of that's true, they're not speaking out for what reason? And it feels like cowardice. I can't think of any other appropriate word. I don't know that they would describe it as cowardice because they would describe it as, okay, we're trying not to be an American church. We're trying not to comment only on what happens in America. And yet, it was only, what, two years ago that President Oaks gave a talk about the United States Constitution and General Conference? I think it's a fool's errand to think that we're ever going to get away from how tied we are to American culture. The idea that suddenly that's going to disappear, I just don't see it. I just don't see how that's going to work. And so if we are still tied to American culture, and if Latter-day Saints in America are aligning with evil in the form of Donald Trump, then yeah, I think the church has a duty to speak out. And I am just as frustrated as you are that they're not willing to do it. So that's my rant in response to your rant. And I just, so where does this leave us?

SPEAKER_00: 34:09

Yeah, this is like a, for me, it's like a counseling session. You should be able to talk about these things and get it off the chest. And, you know, I, I'm not American. You are. You, you know, you understand America far more than I do. I can say that our relationship, my family and my personal relationship with America is one. I hold America in high regard, a great deal of respect, continue to do. That won't change. We have a lot of friends in the States. We go there many, many times on holiday, on business, et cetera. We have an affinity with America, the American people. We love America. We have high expectations, rightly or wrongly, that America, a good, strong America, acting with integrity, with fairness, but firmness as well, is essential, critical for stability in the world, with no question. You know, militarily, economically, politically, socially. When America is, it sounds like we're describing the church again, but when America is doing the right things, and it does a lot of the time, it is the most extraordinary country. It's got the can-do attitude. You know, I grew up in a socialistic environment in the uk that was a very different environment to what i have here in canada and my experience in the united states and america has um the can do get it done attitude on the projects that i work on in the big projects we are i always welcomed and a few of us did the American companies that would come in to work on the projects. And in fact, a lot of the British jurisdictions, governments over there, the authorities there would prefer the Americans to be on the project because there was a attitude of getting things done, getting it done and getting it done right and bringing that can-do attitude. And America's known for that. You know, getting things done, motivation, driven, competitive, and that brings a lot of qualities. And this has been my personal and my professional experience working with professionals in the United States. And my friends in America are very incredible people, extraordinarily motivated, talented individuals. I'm not saying America has a monopoly on talent or can-do attitude. I'm saying I see that attitude more in abundance in America than I do anywhere else in the world. I've traveled to other parts of the world. We need a good, strong America in the world. Without that anchor, we're in trouble. And we're now seeing the decision from the President of the United States, who is changing the fundamentals of of those basic important principles about integrity, honesty and rule of law and essentially doing the right thing. You may or may not have seen some of my comments on Facebook. I felt so strongly I put some of these things on Facebook and I get very little response and that's okay. I don't know if people are concerned or afraid to post or whether it would ensue in an argument online. And again, I said earlier that we need to have I think we need to talk about these things. Social media is a platform to do that. And I think we can have a civil and positive discourse, a respectful discourse on that. Some of the things I've said that I feel so strongly about that I put on Facebook is for the first time in history, a president of the United States of America has voted with the enemies of the free world, Russia, North Korea, Belarus. If there is a leader of the free world, it is not, I repeat, not the president of the United States. I've also said that on the third anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, during a key vote at the UN General Assembly, the United States of America sided with Russia and North Korea in voting against the resolution condemning Russia's illegal war. Russia and North Korea must absolutely love America right now. I'm lost for words. And then earlier I put on here that described Putin and Trump as like the Godfather movie where you've got the Corleone family and Don Corleone is the Don and he's got a rival, got a number of rivals, but Don Emilio Barzini is the other rival there in the Mafia movie there in the Godfather. And I go in a little bit about why I see a similarity between Trump and Putin looking like gangster, godfather-type politics, carving up Ukraine, going into Ukraine, basically. And there's a deal being done this Thursday, Friday, by the way, where America will take half of much of the GDP of Ukraine in return for investing in Ukraine without any security guarantees. It's like a shakedown. It's like, look, I get that you need to get the money back. I understand that. But I understand that America's put billions in, and so has Europe, by the way. I think it's very, very close. Not the 300 billion, that. By the way, in terms of the facts, Trump gets a lot of the information incorrect, blurts out these numbers, and a lot of the time is either lying or is factually incorrect and can be proven. And by the way, two days ago at the press conference, press meeting that they had in front of Trump there, I think it was at the White House, where Macron, President of France, showed up. Trump talked about the financial conditions with Ukraine, loans and investment, and Macron publicly had to correct him, did it very nicely, put his hand on Trump's hand and said, actually, no, you're wrong. You've got that wrong. Again, for our listeners, you should go and look at that. You know, this is not something that the, I'm not talking about any media reporting. I'm talking about going to listen to what Trump is saying, what words are coming out of his mouth, and then watching the French president correct him nicely, more than I think what Trump deserved, publicly, and listening to what the French president had to say. It did a remarkable job there. And so you've got this president who is a liar, who's not concerned about facts and truth. who is now behaving like a mafia gangster, carving up Ukraine, deciding what's happening with Ukraine, with Russia, without Ukraine at the table. It's extraordinary. And so I've commented on these on my Facebook social media, and I've not commented on the church because I don't want to bring the church into disrepute. However, I am looking... to the church for leadership. The church is very, you know, you talked earlier about, you know, why is the church not responding? Is it in a difficult place? It has these opinions, but it's afraid of sharing them. Is it a bit cowardly? I think it is. I think the church is very concerned about what it says politically. But if you go back in time and you've given this as an example, it seems that the church leaders have not been afraid to speak up. You've given us five or six quotes. If you go back further in time, the leaders of the church are completely unafraid about speaking the mind. If you go back even further in time to the Book of Mormon, there's examples with Nephi, where in the Book of Mormon, across the Book of Mormon, Nephi and Alma, Nephi, for example, was rebuking his brothers because they were being, you know, misbehaving. They were breaking the commandments and they were threatening his life. And Nephi said that his words were too strong for his brothers. He said Nephi's words were harsh because he loved truth and he wanted to help his brothers turn to God. Nephi's brothers reacted violently to his teachings. Nephi understood that. He said a quote in Nephi 1, 1 Nephi 16, 2 says, Nephi says, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. Why can't the modern church relationship be bold? The scriptures say, be bold but not overbearing. Why can't we be bold? Why can't Nelson and the prophets speak up like earlier prophets going back to the 70s? Elizabeth Benson was the prophet when you and I were on a mission, late 80s. And he had these, you know, that's like in our own lifetime. That's only 35 years ago or whatever, right? And the church seemed to have this confidence to be able to speak up and speak out and be unafraid. And you can disagree with that, fine, but they were unafraid to speaking out. You know, the church, as I said earlier at the very beginning, has got this long history of, you know, supporting the Constitution, trying to do the right thing. It teaches that the Holy Ghost speaketh of truth and testifies of truth. It talks about the role and responsibility of prophets. It's to tell the world what has happened or what's happening and what is going to happen if the world disobeys the commandments and to speak about the future, to prophesy, to prophesy. Why can't President Nelson, as the prophet, and to be his fundamental self in being a prophet, to prophesy You know, the church prophesied in the proclamation to the world that, you know, if they don't follow the basic principles of family, then great calamities, I think, would come upon the world, right? Maybe this is that. Maybe the church sees that as a connection. I don't know. But why is President Nelson not coming out as the leader of the only true church upon the face of the earth and prophesying, speaking up, having a position, prophesying, being as bold as Nephi and earlier prophets, and saying, look, this is what Trump has done to side with Russia and North Korea, who murder its own people, who torture its own people, etc., who have invaded Ukraine and caused immense personal destruction to the people of Ukraine and to his own people that he doesn't care about. They're just fodder. You've now got the North Koreans in the war. Putin doesn't care about individuals, about people. He cares about his political goals and objectives. And Trump cares about it as well. I honestly believe, Jim, that Trump is focused. The very center of this, one of the key centers is focused on trying to get the Nobel Peace Prize at any cost. Sell Ukraine down the river. Make massive concessions to Russia. Don't stand up against Russia, who's going to expand beyond Ukraine, by the way. That's why the Europeans now... That's why NATO's breaking up. That's why the Europeans now are saying, we can't look to America as an ally. We now need to create a European defense force, and they're doing that right now, and they have to, because Russia will continue to expand its territory. You're not going to stop it at Ukraine. America is only interested in Europe from a financial investment perspective. and is now looking at changing the whole geopolitics, changing NATO. I think we've seen the beginning of the breakup of the NATO. I think you mentioned that earlier. And America is not the America that we've relied on. I agree there's some arguments that the world relied on America too much. I agree with that. I think there's a lot more that the rest of the world could have done. to help themselves. America had to come to the rescue. I think there's a lot of evidence behind that. But to retrench and to come back and just to be interested in this financially and to not condemn Russia for this aggression is just unforgivable. And for the church not to come out and speak up is unforgivable. It's cowardly. It's unforgivable. It's weak. If God has a voice in this, Surely he does. What does he think? And therefore, if Nelson is the mouthpiece, why is Nelson not speaking the words of the mind of God? Or does the God not have, the Lord not have an opinion on this? Is he quiet? And if so, why? So, yeah, I'm trying to piece all this together and trying to understand that. process with God and revelation and discernment and doing the right thing and being bold and speaking up. You said when you met Mitt Romney, you appreciated him for making a very courageous decision in condemning Trump. And Mitt Romney can do it. You can do it. I can do it. We can stand up for the right thing. And so I'm disappointed in the church. That's an understatement. I'm disappointed. I'm actually ashamed that the church that I used to belong to can't come out and do and say something on something like this because we're now seeing going to be massive repercussions on this. And is it also, to your point, that the church is afraid to speak up because most of the members or many of the members are pro-Trumpers? It just baffles me. So our listeners are probably exhausted by now listening to all this. And I know many of our listeners will have a thought and a position. They'll feel strongly about these things. And we're not asking people to agree to us at all or agree to our opinions. But you are right to remind me that the scope of the Inside Out does include talking about politics. It is inseparable. You are right. And these things, as I say, they affect us, they affect our lives. And if we can't stand up, Jim, for doing the right thing and speak up and speak against a cowardly, bully, gangster, thug like Putin, and if we're going to say, if we cast North Korea or Belarus, these dictatorships, and if we side with them, what the hell are we doing if the leader of the free world can't even do that? And again, the profit of the free world I don't think he's been described like that, but the prophet of the free world can't open his mouth and say something. I'm just shocked. So anyway, you've been very patient with me. Our listeners have been extraordinarily patient listening to this, but it's something that I feel very strongly about.

SPEAKER_01: 49:23

Oh, me too. And I think, I mean, it's an exhausting time to be alive. It's exhausting that we're having to live through this. My brother-in-law, There's a man by the name of Nate Ullman, and he wrote a, he has a blog called Thoughts from a Tamed Cynic. And he wrote an article called The Day of Infamy. And he begins, he says, on August 14th, 1941, the United States of America became the leader of the free world. He talks about the creation of the Atlantic Charter, which was the underlying alliance that led to NATO's And that when World War II hit and then when America was attacked in Pearl Harbor, that that's the alliance that put everything together. And so I'm just going to quote a few things that he says. Trump is fundamentally wrong to view alliances as a sign of American weakness. For 80 years, a large part of what it means for the United States to be a powerful nation— is that it can expect the support of the wealthiest and freest countries of the world. That gives the United States influence and global reach that literally no country in the history of the world has been able to match. He is rapidly destroying one of the twin pillars on which that American power has been based. That power is not based solely on economic or military clout. It also comes from the fact that despite the inevitable machinations of nations and America's compromises and shortcomings, ultimately, the United States has been committed to the defense of Western democracy and has stood against aggression and military adventurism. And, you know, here we are with Trump not only not standing against aggression and military adventurism, he's proposing aggression. and military adventurism. He wants to make you guys in Canada the 51st state. He wants to take over Greenland, and he's even said that we might use the military to do that. He wants to seize the Panama Canal. He wants to... Just yesterday, he posted a video generated by AI called Trump Gaza. It's the most ridiculous, obscene thing you have ever seen. It shows... And the AI is bizarre because it shows at one point these women in bikinis, but they also have beards and they're belly dancing. It's really bizarre. But it shows Gaza as this kind of Vegas utopia. And Elon Musk walks down the street with money raining down on his head. There's a huge gold statue of Donald Trump in the middle of a town square. You see Donald Trump in a casino groping. a showgirl, as if that's supposed to be a great thing, and there's this music in the background, and it's Trump Gaza, Trump Gaza. And he proposed this idea of cleansing Gaza. He even used the word cleansing, which in the history of the world of ethnic cleansing, I mean, how much more blunt do you have to be to recognize that this is who this man is? He wants to cleanse Gaza of all the Gazans and send them to other countries, kick them out of their homes, remove them from their land, and build a casino that has a huge gold statue of Donald Trump in the middle of it. It's obscene. It's obscene. It's immoral. It's not just politically wrong. Going back to my brother-in-law's essay, because, Ian, I brought this up because you talk about the prophet of the free world, the leader of the free world. And he ends his essay by saying, I hope and pray that the damage that Trump has done in the last few weeks is not permanent. But if it is, I fear that February 24th, 2025, and that was the day that we voted with North Korea and with Russia and with China against Ukraine. But if it is, I fear that February 24th, 2025 will mark the day when the United States of America stopped being the leader of the free world. It is a deeply shameful thing to sell out an ally that has bravely resisted with our support an aggressive tyrant. Deeply shameful. I am furious at what Trump is doing to Ukraine. More than that, I am furious at what he is doing to the United States. And this is where we are. We have an authoritarian leader who is doing things that Church leaders have decried with their full voices and at full volume for decades. And now when we have a leader that's doing it, we're silent. We're shutting up. And you brought up something that I have considered in the past, but didn't really want to consider here, but I fear it may very well be true. Because I've made excuses before. for church leaders not speaking up on this in that, oh, they don't want to look like an American church. Oh, they don't want to upset international members. But you said they don't want to upset their Trumpy supporters. They don't want to upset Trumpy Latter-day Saints. And there's something very real to that because I think they are still stinging from the rebuke they got from a large portion of church membership when they stood with the science in the midst of the pandemic, when they said, get vaccinated, when they said, wear a mask, when they said, take appropriate precautions. President Nelson spoke out very bluntly. He called the vaccines a literal godsend. So this is a prophet of the Lord referencing God. And he's essentially saying, God sent this vaccine. This vaccine is the answer to the prayers that I've asked you to offer. In general conference, he said, we're going to fast. We're going to pray for an end of this pandemic. And then the prophet says, we've received that answer. And that answer is these vaccines. And then all of these church members say, who say, I sustain the prophet, and are mad at people like Jim Bennett for advocating for more inclusion in the church in ways they don't like. All these people suddenly turn around and say, oh, he's only speaking as a man, or worse, he's a fallen prophet. He's an apostasy. How dare he say that we should take the vaccine? What they learned from that, what church leaders learned from that experience, I think is a lesson that is hurting us today. And that lesson is, if we say things that go against church members' politics, they're not going to follow them. And if we say things continually that church members don't follow, we're going to look weak, we're going to look ineffective, and so we need to not do that. I fear that that's one of the lessons they took from the pandemic is, yeah, this contingent of church members who are tithe payers and who are in other ways faithful. I mean, they fulfill callings. And these aren't just church goers. These are bishops. These are stake presidents. These are people on every level of the church. And they're people who, in most ways, are considered the most faithful members of the church, but their loyalty to the church is trumped by Trump. It's trumped by their loyalty to their political agenda, and that's more important to them. And I think the church leaders know damn well that if they were to come out against the evil that Trump is doing. Not just the bad politics that Trump is doing. We've had bad politics in every administration. We can survive bad politics. We can't survive pervasive and relentless pursuit of evil, which is what Donald Trump is doing. And it's what the United States is becoming. We have forfeited our role as leader of the free world and we are Allying ourselves with the bad guys, which makes us one of the bad guys. There's an old saying that if 14 people are at dinner with one Nazi and they don't stand up against him, then it's a dinner with 14 Nazis. If we just stay silent, if we don't stand up against it, we are complicit with it. And right now the church... and church leaders, frankly, are complicit with the Trump agenda. And the Trump agenda is evil. And there's really no way around that. I mean, there's no escape clause. There's no way that we can slough off our accountability for it. You know, when the church does something wrong, I used to say the church needs to do this. The church needs to do that as if the church were something separate from me. And now I recognize We need to do this. I am the church. I am part of the church. As long as I am inside the church, then if I stay in the church, I bear some measure of responsibility for anything the church does, which pains me when the church does things that I don't like. Well, the reality is we are now in the United States. We are complicit if we do not stand up against this evil man. this evil agenda. And I don't want the church to be complicit, but I fear that we are. And we need to not be. What is the point of all of these things that we are taught on a weekly, daily basis? We're supposed to study the scriptures daily. We pray daily. And we go to church and we receive instruction about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ. What is the point of all of that if when the overwhelming evidence is that we are following somebody who is anti-Christ, who is opposed to the principles that we are taught on a daily basis, then what is the point of what we're taught if we're not able to use that? to stand up to evil. And so that's where I am. That's where this, it's not even that this is a tangent. This is front and center of, for me, front and center for the moral future of the church. If we think we can just ride this out and not raise a peep and keep our heads down and hope it goes away, we are in for a dreadful reckoning. somewhere down the road. It's already starting. It's already here. We are already seeing. The church is in Ukraine. The church has members in Ukraine and we are now essentially abandoning them. We are now saying, you know, go ahead, Donald Trump, align with the axis of evil and let's strip mine Ukraine for parts and hand it over to a dictator and allow him to do what he will. And we're just standing by and letting that happen, which means we're complicit with it. I just don't think we can stress this enough. I don't think that there is enough outrage, that there is enough fury that we can express in opposition to this. I just think we need, if the church as a whole is not going to raise its voice against this evil. You and I are going to do our part to do it. And I'm not going to back down from it. I'm going to continue to do it. It's ended, you know, I have a lot of people who talk about, you realize you've ended any chance you ever have of holding political office. And I said, yes, I do. I absolutely do. I realize that ship has sailed. I realize that that's not in my future. But For that to be in my future, I would have to somehow be complicit with evil. I look at the representatives in Utah who are Latter-day Saints, who do this kind of hand-wringing, oh, yeah, this probably isn't right. I mean, I look at John Curtis, senator from Utah. I ran against John Curtis as a member of the United Utah Party when he first ran for Congress. I only got 9.4% of the vote, but... I got to know John Curtis. I had several conversations with him. I consider him a good man. And he used to be a Democrat. And he decided he was never going to win an office as a Democrat. So he became a Republican. And he ran for office. He ran for Congress and won. And now he's run for the Senate. He's replaced Mitt Romney in the Senate. And a lot of people look to him as, okay, well, will you have the same conscience Mitt Romney did? And the answer is no. The answer is absolutely no. He said, oh, jeez, I'm worried about these crazy things RFK Jr. said about vaccines, and I'm worried about some of these other nominees. And then he went ahead and voted for all of them. And he hasn't issued any statement condemning the UN resolution vote, he's just going along for the ride. And he's doing that because he knows that if he doesn't do that, his constituents, the majority of whom are Latter-day Saints, will vote him out of office because what Trump is doing is what a majority of American Latter-day Saints want. And that's obscene to me. That's absolutely obscene to me. And as long as I can speak out against it, I am going to do that. So I very much appreciate you, Ian, participating. And I very much appreciate you raising this as the topic. And if listeners are frustrated by this or bored by this, we'll probably turn off quite a few people. At this point, you have to make a decision. You have to take sides. Joseph Smith once said, once you enlist in the gospel of Jesus Christ, you leave neutral ground forever. And he was talking about the church, but there is a wider principle there that I think applies. There is no neutral ground left in this global battle of good versus evil. And it is painfully clear which side Donald Trump is on. And if you think you can just stay neutral, stay quiet, and ride it out, you are on the side. You are not neutral. You are on the side of evil, and there's no way around that. So I don't know if that's too harsh, but that's where I am, and that's where I'm going to continue to be.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:45

And that's okay. And again, these are very, very serious, important things, and I know many of our listeners will feel strongly about these things either way, and that's okay. I appreciate you raising the fact that there are church members in Ukraine, and what is the church saying to them right now? You know, what's the church, especially after the vote? The church teaches that before the world was, there was a council in heaven, and two plans were put forward to God, one by Lucifer, who are my Jesus Christ. And two-thirds of us chose Jesus Christ's plan, the plan of salvation. And Lucifer, with the third of the hosts of heaven, and that plan, which was rejected, was cast down. And we went with Jesus Christ. We voted. There was a decision. We took a position. We took a stand. A few closing remarks here. I want to share this with you. As I was listening, I found this. It's a lesson. It's a lesson in the church lesson books, and it's dated August 23. I think it's one of the gospel study lessons. It's titled, Why We Should Speak Up for Truth. Listen to this. We merely have to watch the daily news or look around us to see that society is degrading rapidly. This is... 80 months ago. It can become soul-numbing, and many of us may be tempted to just withdraw and keep quiet. But the law's discretion, direction rather, is clear. We are expected to speak up. We are expected to be a warning voice. We are expected to defend the truth in a world that increasingly does not want to hear or accept the truth. Elder Ballard said this in the lesson, The time has come when members of the church need to speak out and join with the many other concerned people in opposition to the offensive, destructive, and mean-spirited media influence that is swooping over the earth. So that's something that Elder Ballard felt strongly about, enough for him to be quoted in the lesson. You don't put your apostle quotes in without the apostle knowing about it, surely, in a standard gospel lesson, right? Elder Ballard would have known about this, that he's being quoted. And he says, so that's Elder Ballard, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At a religious study symposium in California, Elder Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, a group of Germany during World War II, talked about a visit he and his wife made to Auschwitz, a former concentration camp established in German-occupied Poland. By the way, I'm going to Auschwitz in April and May, by the way, Jim. Elder Uchtdorf says this, I wonder how history might have been changed had the people of Germany spoken with one voice against the evil that arose around them. Elder Uchtdorf is saying this, perhaps future generations will ask the same of us today. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to know truth and to have the influence of the Holy Ghost to help us recognize the difference between truth and error. When we use these gifts to speak, our influence for good will grow and our profound impacts to often evil risers in the world because good men and women do not find the courage to speak against it, said Elder Uchtdorf. He goes on to say, as sometimes terrible, preventable, terrible, preventable events happen because we fail to open our mouths. He then finishes his comment by saying, so how do we speak up for what's right? That's from the church lesson material right on the church website. August 23, titled Speaking Up the Truth. Why doesn't President Nelson read this lesson? Follow it. So if President Nelson or anyone is connected to President Nelson right now, listen to these words. I'm not trying to be overconfident here or arrogant. But if you're hearing this message, for goodness sake, for the sake of goodness, follow this lesson. Follow the advice from Elder Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard and speak up and speak out and say something. Anything. Do the right thing. Comment on it. Do something, for goodness sake. And defend the right and speak up against evil. Follow your own basic fundamental principles. Please. I... hope that someone in our listeners will pass this on to the president. Now is the time to do this. Is there ever a time to stand up and speak about something? Ever. And there's been many times where the church hasn't, and times when it has. Now is the time to do something, to say something, and not, as we heard in the lesson here, to be silent and to be quiet. And all around us, all these things are happening. Like you, Jim, I feel so strongly about this. If we don't live like this, if we don't live for integrity, Elder Bednar talks about integrity, by the way, a lot. We're a church of integrity. He says that. Integrity is so important to him. Well, let's have the integrity and the decency to do something, to say something, to speak up. And don't leave it. to members of the church guessing. Let's not be cowards. Let's speak up. We might not carry opinion with us, with people, but at least we're speaking our truth and we're being honest. And if we can't be that, Jim, in life, if we can't be like that in life, what are we, really? You know, when Elder Oak set me apart with the state presidency and we had those interviews at training, he asked us, speaking in the calling, not just in life, but in the calling, as well. How do you want to be remembered? That was his question to us as a new state presidency. How do you want to be remembered? Not just as in this life, but also as a presidency. And so I would ask President Nelson, how do you want to be remembered? When all these things are happening in the world and you're there silent, not saying anything, not speaking up, people will remember this. I will remember this. Please have the courage Do something. Say something. Follow the lesson material right here. I'm grateful for this conversation. Felt so strongly about it. And I appreciate your comments. I have nothing else to say. I think I'm going to go off my chest. I want to thank our listeners for being incredibly patient. And we may have lost some of them throughout this conversation. I don't know. We try to be respectful and kind and courteous. We feel so strongly about this. Do you have any final comments or thoughts, Jim, at your end before we close? I do not.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:00

Only to say amen and amen to what you've just

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:02

said. Thank you. Well, to you, Jim, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. I really am grateful for your just openness and transparency and just speaking from the heart. And I know that you've done that. I've done that. I've tried to do that as well. I'm grateful for our listeners, for their patience and understanding. We try to keep that balance. The church does extraordinarily good. And you know when the church stands up and speaks up on things, I think that's great. I really do. And let's hope that it will do so on this occasion. Thank you to you. Thank you to our listeners. And we look forward to meeting with all the listeners sometime next week. And in the meantime, we wish you the best and that you're all safe. And we express our love and appreciation to you all. Thank you for listening. And that's it for this week's Inside Out. Thank you, everybody. And thank you to you, Jim. Thank you, William.