Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilks
The format of Inside Out is simple - Jim Bennett is still on the inside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Ian Wilks is on the outside of the Church. Yet both care about the Church and its future, and both want to see constructive dialogue between those who stay and those who leave. Hopefully, all of us can come to a better understanding of the Church and of each other.
Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilks
A Conversation with Daryl Watson
Ian and Jim have a conversation with Ian's old friend Daryl Watson, who, along with his wife, recently served as a mission leader of the Belgium/Netherlands Mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I'm Ian Wilkes and I'm here with the most distinguished Mr. Jim Bennett.
SPEAKER_00:Hello. I'm feeling distinguished, so they can't see me, so they don't know how undistinguished I actually look. So I can sound distinguished no matter how I look.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and with where we are on, you know, getting a little bit older here, we're certainly looking distinguished. Jim, I'm really excited about this week's podcast. I've been looking forward to it for a while. We've been trying to coordinate our schedules. And I feel honoured, actually, to introduce this very special guest on the podcast, Daryl Watson from Scotland. Daryl, welcome to Inside Out.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you very much, Ian. It's a delight to be here with you all the way from Bonny, Scotland. Happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02:But wonderful. And as I say, it's a real honor. Just as an extension to my introduction, just for a couple of minutes, I just want to share briefly just my experience with you going back now to 87, 1987. Because my experience with yourself and certainly your parents had a very profound, quite extraordinary impact on my life. And I think I speak for Elder Jacobs as well. And so... For those who are listening, you will know that Jim Bennett and I served our missions together in Scotland. We never served as companions. I don't know if I was worthy enough to serve with Jim Bennett, or if he was worthy enough to serve with me. I don't know. And so I came out in the early 1987 at President Dunn. Darrell, you remember him? Joel Dunn was the mission president at the time. And I served in Dumfries. And then I fell in love with the Dumfries people and didn't want to leave. I got quite emotional leaving that day. I didn't understand the concept of transfers, by the way. Having not grown up in the church and joining when I was 16, I'd heard about it, but it was very difficult to... disconnect myself from relationships that I'd grown very fond of. And they all said in Dumfries, where are you going? I said, I'm going to Dunfermline. Oh, you love Dunfermline. It's amazing. I don't want to go to Dunfermline. I want to stay in Dumfries. I was just so in love with the people there. Anyway, so we arrived in Dunfermline, I think in May 87. And Ella Jacobs and I had been... When we arrived there, we were brand new. The other missionaries, Elder Spencer and Elder Blazard, who you know, Daryl. And Jim, you know these two missionaries. We love them. We're lifelong friends. We keep in touch, of course. And we saw them at the reunion, Daryl. We went to a reunion about a few months ago, Jim. at President Banks' home. Carol, we went there.
SPEAKER_01:Ben Banks.
SPEAKER_02:Ben Banks' home. We had a big mission reunion. Spencer was there. Elder Blaser was there. Jamie, you came along. It was a wonderful experience. And so we replaced Ella Spencer and Blaser. They were shipped to have somewhere else. And Jacobs and I arrived whitewashed, you know, cranny to the area. And so we found, you know, the first week was getting to know the members, getting to know the area. And the two individuals that we met very quickly, there's two. First of all, we met the Brig Cafe people. You remember those?
SPEAKER_01:But it's still there.
SPEAKER_02:It's still there. So, Jim, this is a fish and chip shop and a kebab shop and a King Ribs shop. This is still King Ribs. I remember that. And they used to feed the missionaries and they just loved the missionaries. And the missionaries used to go to this fish and chip shop for years. And we arrived and introduced ourselves. So we had this immediate friendship at the... Brig Cafe, I remember that, just down the road from where we were staying as missionaries there. And the other two people that we met was your mom and dad. Your dad was the bishop, Jackie Watson. That's his first name. I don't know if that's his official first name, but I think his first name was Jackie. And Bishop Watson, I remember the first time meeting him, he was just... Adorable. He was the kindest. Both your parents were the kindest, most loving, most spiritual, most humble people I've ever met. In fact, I wasn't always diligent on my journal. Did pretty good. Didn't always fill it in. But I've got almost two pages in my mission journal on your mom and dad. And the time I was there with Jacobs, Jim, and I think we've talked, I've mentioned these two individuals on previous podcasts. Ella Jacobs and I absolutely fell in love with Daryl's parents. We couldn't meet a kinder, nicer, more humble, more helpful, more caring couple. The respect for your dad in that ward was extraordinary. And I don't want to go too long on this, but your dad in particular had a very personal impact on me and Jacob's as well. We had dinner at your mom and dad's place a few times. And Jim, he was one of the finest bishops I've ever met. And I actually, I was overseas in Europe and I heard that, Daryl, your dad passed away.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_02:I flew back. And I don't do this, Jim, very often. I flew back especially. And I went to the funeral. I could not miss that. I was there. Brendan Swanee was there. I met with Brendan Swanee briefly. Elder Kerr was there at the time. And there was almost no standing room. This man had impacted so many. who had traveled far and wide to show their respect. And I think I'd learned for the first time during that, I think you spoke, Daryl, at the funeral, I think. And I think you conducted, if I'm not mistaken. And I learned that he was a railway man for the first time. I think he worked on the railways going back. But he is, out of the many people I met on my mission, I met many, he is one that stood out most I thought about him so much and think about him at times more than most, frankly. That's my introduction. You and I, when we moved into the area, I'd forgotten that you'd been back from your mission two years. Paul, your friend, I think may have just got back. I can't remember. And then we went, Jacobs and I went tracting with you, I think within a few weeks of you getting back. And Jim, I thought I was good on the door, but Daryl and Paul, Paul Bishop, a wonderful guy. I mean, these were seasoned return missionaries and we learned a thing or two about from Daryl and Paul about, you know, knocking on doors, which I always struggled with that. So that's my introduction. You come from an amazing family, Daryl. I absolutely adore your family. I was honored to work with you at the time. And that is my way of introducing you. We would be delighted to hear more about you and your story. You know, growing up in the church, There's a lot about you that are still yet to learn. Your experience of the church, youth growing up. You served a mission. We'd love to hear about that. You got married. You have a family. You're still in the temple. You've served in some of the most significant leadership callings in the church. And we'd love you to share your experience on that. And I know we have, Jim and I have got a few questions. when you share your experience. So could you, enough of me talking, could you just take us through a bit of your experience growing up in the church, what that was like, your family, mission, etc.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, thanks Ian. So thank you for being so gracious about my parents. Dad, yeah, he passed away 2005. Mum's still alive. She's nearly 90 in July. Well, she'll be 90 in July. I grew up in church. My dad joined the church in 1961. Mum took another couple of years to come along and join in 1963. A couple of missionaries knocked on their door in Trondheim Parkway. The key one was Royce Clifton Young from Kanab, Utah. Shortly after my dad joined the church in 1961, it was only a few months later, he was called to serve as the branch president in Dunfermline. And he served as a branch president from 1962 all the way through to 1975 when Dunfermline branch, as it was, became a ward. He had a little bit of a breather. They gave him a little bit of a breather for maybe, I think it was seven years. And then he was called back as the bishop and he served for another. And so he did 13 years and then he did another 13 years as a bishop. So when you were serving, Ian, he was already five years in on his second term. So in total, he served as the shepherd in Dunfermline for 26 years. We love him. His name was John Watson, but he was called Giant Jackie, and you know he was just a small man physically, but spiritually he was a giant, and he touched many, many people's lives, including us children and my mother. I think my mother had a lot to endure over the years because he was constantly away, but she was very supportive. I grew up in church, had a few experiences growing up, one of which was pretty significant and I think it impacted me in a big way. First year at high school, you might remember Woodmill High School, Ian and Dunfermline. I don't know if you remember Woodmill. But in the English class, I was only a member of the church in the high school at that time. So I was in a high school of about 1,600 kids and I was only one member of the church. But in English, the English teacher said one thing morning early in the new year he says do any of you go to church and I thought well I do and put your hands up if you go to church so Kenny Gingerly I put my hand up and then Kenny looked around and was then you know I was sitting on the front row and realised oh my goodness I'm the only fool who's put their hand up and I And so from that day onwards, I became the religious correspondent in the English class. So any religious topical thing that came up about faith, Darrell here got to speak on the topic. And of course, it would come with an LDS slant at the same time because that's all I knew. I didn't know anything else. But that had a big impact on me because from a young age, talk and share about my faith in front of a class of kids. Grew up through church, was always active, I was called as a, I was a ward clerk when I was 16, I don't know how my dad did that because you know you're not to be a ward clerk until you're a Melchizedek priesthood holder but anyway, I was a ward clerk and then I was a I was called on a mission in 1983. I served an England-London mission with A. Harold Goodman. I was only the 18-month missions at that time. I went out and I came back and just at the very end, it was changing back to two years. But I was already heading to college and stuff. So I came home May of 1985. That's when I got back from the England-London mission. And I loved it. It was tremendous. I served in Shepherd's Bush. I served out in Chelmsford, Whittam area. Served in Luton and Watford. And finally, I served up in Cambridge. And I loved my time and my mission. I've been over to Utah a few times now. I was over actually in December and I got to meet up with three of my companions actually. Well, I stayed with one who married a Scottish girl. I stayed with him. That wasn't getting handy. Kelly Gray. And then I visited with Marty Andrews and Clark Christensen. So it was just great. I hadn't seen Clark in 40 years. And you guys know what it's like when you meet up with your old companions you haven't seen in years and years and years. So very fortunate to have a good relationship with them. Came back off my mission, dated for a few years, graduated from university. No one was willing to have me. I was, I don't know, just that was it. I must have been a prickly character. And then a certain Dutch girl came to Scotland and served in Scotland and she ended up towards the end of her mission here in Dunfermline by that time I was serving as a ward mission leader but I yeah I was actually engaged to another girl at the time but anyway she worked her magic on me and she went home Nothing happened on the mission. She went home and then we got in touch. And frankly, a year later, you know, the rest is history. I was married a year later. We lived in the Netherlands for a little while and then came back to Dunfermline so I could finish all my studies in Edinburgh, actually. I've settled in Dunfermline, got a job. I was called as bishop and we had our first marriage. child, Kyle. He's studying for his PhD down in Liverpool now. It's in his third year. He's getting married this September. His fiancée has just joined and she's a lovely girl. And then I've got a daughter, Megan. She's married in Glasgow and we've just had a little grandson. And then our youngest daughter, Christy, is studying in Edinburgh. So we've three kids. I served as bishop for six years and then released and I was called the stake president and I served as stake president in the Dundee stake and for nine and a half years or so. Then I served as the UK Communication Director of Public Affairs. I got involved with lots of stuff, radio, TV, government relations, interfaith. Wow, I just had a great time. And then Monique and I have just recently come back from the Belgian Netherlands mission, where she and I were the mission leaders. And we had 332 missionaries. We went out at the end of COVID times. None of this kind of fancy big visits to America for us. No, no, just straight into the field. And then we've had a fantastic three years. Coming home has been a bit tough picking up my business again. They give you a little bit of warning. They say after three years of being really busy, which you are, You're on the go 365, 24-7. You come back and you're like, whoa, the fourth year is the hardest year. And quite frankly, Ian and Jim, this fourth year's been pretty tough to come back and kick the business off again and trying to get it going. So that's in a nutshell about me. I've got lots of stories I can tell you and I'm interested in any questions you've got and I'm happy to share some specific stories if you like. But yeah, there you go. I feel very fortunate to have had such an opportunity to be blessed and to serve in so many different responsibilities.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm very curious. So about your mission presidency experience.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Particularly in Belgium, because, well, first of all, what language did you speak? Did you have to learn a language? And
SPEAKER_01:I speak Netherlands. I speak Dutch. My wife's Dutch. And so we were responsible for everything above Brussels, north. So if you can think of a horizontal line, just kind of the middle of Brussels, which is kind of Dutch and French speaking. We were speaking Flemish, which is a variation of Dutch. And then in the Netherlands, it's Dutch, of course. And I'm pretty fluent in Dutch now, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So were your missionaries all trained in Dutch? to come to your missions?
SPEAKER_01:They had a few weeks in the MTC and they came in with very basic Dutch. But over the course of their time there, most of them became fairly proficient. Some excelled. There were some who were absolutely hopeless. But, you know, the Dutch, unlike some other missions where they don't speak English very well, there's not too many Dutch that don't speak Really good English. So
SPEAKER_00:there you go. I would think that that would probably be the case. I'm very interested, though, in terms of the kind of reception that you got. Because all the reports that I hear are that all of Europe is really sort of struggling in terms of church growth, in terms of church retention. And so... I'd be very interested to hear your firsthand report from the front lines. Is that a very serious challenge? Did you see any success as a mission?
SPEAKER_01:So, Jim, I would stand you corrected, my friend. I think you've been being fed some pretty much nonsensical rubbish over a long period of time. The church is actually starting to really flourish and grow in Europe again. In fact, I would say, quite honestly, we are living in a golden age of growth in Europe once more. Really? Oh yeah, absolutely. Let me tell you why. So during COVID times, we went out right at the end of COVID. So we arrived in the mission in... June of 2021. And unquestionably, those were difficult times. You know, everybody kind of became reclusive. There was lots of challenges. Services were cancelled. Everything was on Zoom. And then over these, certainly in the last three years that we have seen quite exceptional growth in areas that were formerly very difficult to preach the gospel in. So all across Europe. And I think it's probably a number of factors. One number factor is the number of immigrants coming into Europe now. It's huge. I mean, Europe is a place where we have seen massive amounts of movement of people. all across the nations of Europe, resulting in a lot of curiosity about faith, a lot of people looking to actually recover faith. And fascinating, the thing that I always found fascinating, Jim, was the number of Muslim people who are having dreams, about Jesus Christ and coming to Christ. They're not just our Christian faith, but they'll want to join many a Christian faith. And so there's a number of people moving from the Muslim world into the Christian world. That's causing a lot of problems for them should they return home. The church has got pretty strict guidelines and policies on that because if you join a Christian faith and you go home, you're likely to be killed, frankly. It's quite serious, quite a serious thing. So we saw, in our time, we saw growth after growth after growth, year on year. And since we've come home, it's continued. In fact, we're running at double the growth we had the year we left. So in the Belgian Netherlands mission. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's tough. No, we are not South America or Africa in terms of where that is just, you know, crazy growth all the time. But yeah, we are returning to a position of strength across Europe. And that's the way I see it. And I think the second reason would be, quite frankly, the church has now figured out how to utilize social media. Period. And the social media, the way it's utilized across... So Ian, you were talking about going knocking doors. So when the missionaries came into the Belgium Netherlands mission at their orientation meeting, I would say something like this. I would become the best social media individual in this mission. If you choose to waste your time and go knocking on doors, you will do just that. You will waste your time. And it's very unlikely that you'll ever find anybody. So you'd be far better becoming a social media expert, finding people online and finding people on the street next to working with your members. Because the members, 50% of our new converts in Belgium and Netherlands came through member work. 45% came through social media. And the remaining 5% was all the other ways combined. So social media and the migration of people has been a big impact across Europe and the way the church is growing.
SPEAKER_00:That's actually very exciting to hear because my sons, I have twin boys, and they served missions in Argentina right before COVID or right during COVID. So they were out for seven months. The church recalled all their missionaries. And so they came home after seven months, and then they were reassigned to missions in the United States. But they reported sort of the same thing in terms of what was effective. And from their perspective, the church was just really sort of starting to figure out how to use social media. And it sounds like that that process has accelerated and that that's working a whole lot better, particularly under your leadership while you were there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm a bit of a, as Ian probably knows, I'm a bit of a social media fan myself. I'm a bit of a regular blogger and poster. And so I actively encouraged all of our missionaries to blog and to share their thoughts and feelings. But now, not only that, but the missionary department has really, they have a really strong presence with, specifically on Facebook. So Facebook has been a, and Instagram to some degree not TikTok or anything like that or Snapchat or you know X as it is now but certainly Facebook there's a huge way to find people and people are very receptive you can have really good conversations online and yeah I think there's a sea change in the way that we do things I was on BBC Radio 4 recently for the church and they were asking me about our experience in evangelism and there was an Anglican minister and a muslim lady and they were talking to me about you know what's the most effective way to find people and i was saying well you know your friends but then it was really social media, and it was an eye-opener for the other two. They really hadn't cottoned on to it. I think the church is really now, in a big way, leading the way in using social media to actually express themselves, and they're not frightened about putting everything out there. I mean, everything's out there now in terms of online. So it's made a big difference.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. The... from the time that we also had our missions you came back in 85 Jim you and I came back in 89 I think it was and we spent as you know Daryl in London in Scotland we spent every waking hour knocking on doors we got a few referrals when we got referrals it was you know manna from heaven that We didn't always get referrals from members. That was always a challenge. We had that Year My Friends program. Oh, yeah. Elder Bower did, if you remember that. But we spent most of the day, 10 hours a day knocking on doors, and we didn't get very far. And so the church has come a long way, very sophisticated in regards to social media. You said that it's found its way, become very efficient at that. Very different experience from Jim when you and I, well, we're all three were serving missions. In terms of the physical operations, the mechanics, what does that look like? Is it missionaries sat in front of a computer, literally, going on a Facebook, for example, and finding people that they don't know? What's that process look like? I mean, you've got the referral program with the members. So that, you know, you mentioned the percentage of... Success came from them, which it sounds amazing. By the way, the comment you made earlier about Europe, the resurgence of growth in Europe, for reasons that have explained, I never really fully understood that, Jim, until now that Daryl's talking about that. Because there's big parts of Europe, as far as I understand, that are quite secular. But with those people coming in, it's kind of a renewal from what Daryl's saying, which is great.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But from the mystery mechanics, getting up in the morning, could you walk us through the day of a mystery? I mean, you get up at 6.30. You have your prayers and your companion inventory, as we call it in Scotland, personal study. There's breakfast. There's half an hour planning the day. Leave the flat at 9.30. Or do they stay in the flat? Or do they go to an office and sit in front of a laptop? A laptop, right, would you now go? I'm completely different to what you and I experienced, Jim, and you, Daryl. And so it goes through all these names or whatever on Facebook. Could you walk us through that process? What's that look like? sure
SPEAKER_01:so it's yeah very similar to our day in the field so up at 6 30 structured day 6 30 back in the apartment at night by 9 9 30 okay um but in between it has changed significantly um so preach my gospel uh the you know the new edition second edition you'll find all the information in there but effectively morning routines is different they might they're probably now most missions won't get them out their mission till around noon uh lunchtime so a lot of study companion study personal study in the morning they'll do language study in our mission of course because that was a big part um they would do preparatory stuff in the morning so really mornings are are really a lot of time spent just getting organized and planning everything In their apartment then? In their apartment, yeah. So that would generally take, unless you've got a, district council or uh used to call them district meetings we call it they were called district councils now or you've got zone conference or something like that or the pd the preparation day so but it's all driven now by their their phones okay so very few of them will have laptops um for a social media they'll have they'll have in each mission you'll have social media missionaries and i'll explain that if you like but on the phones they all have something called a PMG app okay so the PMG app is preach my gospel app and that is really the that controls everything so so for instance typically I was just back over actually in the mission I was with a professionally with a client in Brussels and I met up with a few of the missionaries in Antwerp and And I was asking them, how many referrals are they getting now? And so when I left, they were getting around about six to 800 a month or so. Now they're getting well over a thousand referrals. So there's lots of things going on all the time in terms of that. But So if there's a Facebook ad, so there'll be a Facebook ad, someone somewhere in Belgium or the Netherlands will click on that ad and literally as soon as they've clicked on that ad, within less than 30 seconds, that referral will pop up on their phone in PMG. And then they can respond to that individual and there's usually at any one time at least three campaigns running on Facebook. social media or Instagram. So the missionaries will respond. They tend to respond within two minutes. If you get a response within two minutes, you're going to have a much more chance of success in talking with them. And so then they'll then go and physically see that person or they will have a call with that individual online. So that is a big part of what they do. Yes, they still go street contacting a lot. Yes, they'll go to members' houses for dinner appointments. But another part of social media is that they'll actively... probably contact people in a specific area. So if they were serving in... Utrecht. And if they were in Utrecht, they would join little Facebook groups in Utrecht or they would look for people. They're all pretty good on social media so they can look online, find people and then basically just try and befriend them or share a message with them. And that accounts for a fair number of new convert baptisms as well. So there's that constantly going on. And I think, yeah, that's how it works. It's pretty slick now. Then they'll have their usual other activities through the day and they'll probably do a bit of street contact and they may do some street meetings they'll do some other kind of work but social media will generally take up a big part now that said not all of the missionaries like social media and are quite hesitant to use it and frankly it's created a few challenges as well in terms of the behaviors online and you've got to be pretty strict with that but yeah the results frankly guys speaks for themselves
SPEAKER_00:So what kind, well, maybe this is too loaded a question, but as a mission president, what kind of behaviors online did you have to worry about? How did missionaries get into trouble?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you can read about that in the standards for missionaries, the discipleship of Christ. But the kind of things that we would encourage them to do was always to have, you know, working on their phones side by side so that they can see each other's screens. One of the things that we teach some is they don't take their phones into the toilet or into the bathroom, so they leave them outside. There were some of them who struggled with their behaviours from pre-mission. and bringing those behaviours into the mission. So they could be scrolling for hours on end or watching things that they shouldn't be. But the missionary devices are fairly well controlled. So there's a piece of software called Mass on your device, which really just limits them from what they can actually do. So there's a bit of... and a bit of a protection built in there. But some of the challenges were the kind of typical things that you would imagine. Some of them were able to bypass those things and then you'd find out or others would access things that they shouldn't have done. And yeah, although I was able to work with them in that challenge and just loving them and helping them and encouraging them to keep their minds focused, it made a difference.
SPEAKER_02:This is fascinating. In Scotland, you know, and the missionaries, I'm sure today, very strict standards, Jim, in Scotland, in missions. You know, we had President Dunne was hyper strict. We even had to work B-days. And very strict rules and regulations about missionary conduct. You know, the White Handbook, you had to really keep your mind in check, right?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And there is an interview before you go on a mission, the bishop interviews, you've got to be morally clean and worthy. And those standards haven't changed. Or have they slightly changed, Daryl? Is there... How do I phrase this? Is there... Again, on my mission, my experience, very strict in terms of maintaining the standards, living with exactness, being morally pure. And the message is that if you are not... with your thoughts and any other action behavior, you lose the spirit. And the teaching there has not changed. Has, from your perspective, is a little bit more, what's the word, patience maybe or understanding dealing with young missionaries with those kind of challenges? Or is it still as strict from when all three of us were serving on our missions in the U.K.?
UNKNOWN:?
SPEAKER_01:So that's a great question, Ian. So let me answer that. This may be a little long-winded, but you think about this, what we've just been through. So we've been through three years of missionary leadership. So three years, translating that into mission speak, is 27 transfers of six weeks of 42 days of transfer, okay? So we've repeated that cycle 27 times and in that cycle we inherited a whole bunch of missionaries when we went in then we had our own missionaries for a period and then we passed them on that's how it works that's the operational mechanism of a mission so the missionaries generally will go through a few weeks in the mtc we have one of the mtcs in the world they will to get to the mtc you have to be mindful to be a missionary There's more expected of you. There's certain standards and obligations and procedures that they will have had to have reached in order to come on the mission, whether it's a proselyting mission now or a service mission, because many now are going on service missions rather than going on proselyting missions. Today, we have 450 missions globally. That's how many there are. And typically, you'll transition out a new mission leader or leaders 140, 150 every year. Every June, it's transitioning out. So there's a lot of change. And missionaries are constantly changing in field. Now, how do you know what's happening with your missionaries? It's really easy. In our mission, we had a complement of 130 missionaries. So every transfer, Monique and I, visited with a little coaching session with every single missionary. You guys probably had it with Prez at Dunn. Now, those interviews or those coaching interviews, I would see them and Monique would see them. And we spoke about different things. Those were critical in understanding where a missionary was. Now, they would come in and I could guarantee you that if you were getting an American missionary coming in in October, November, December, coming in a dark and dreary, cold, weary, wet Netherlands for a dark, long winter season, they'd be pretty depressed on general, okay? So you'd have to work with them and help them through that winter period. The expectations we have of them is very high. High love, high expectations. And Monique and I, from the outset, quite frankly, we couldn't have cared two hoots about how many people they taught and baptized. But what we did care about was then, one by one, we loved them. And all 332 of those missionaries are now our very, very, very best friends. They're like our kids. We just love them. And we came to know them personally, individually. And when you've got that love for them, you can really empower them. So we had our missionaries, we gave them a really long leash and some of them failed and some of them got themselves into trouble. But let me tell you that when they did fail, we never had any more rules other than what was expected in the discipleship. We'd call it the white hand because it's no longer white because it's all in line. You know, when you love them, and help them to recognize that they're a child of God, then, you know, they just, they became empowered. And when they became empowered, they went out and taught with great love and passion. And we found that way a really powerful way to help every missionary raise their own standard. That was a long-winded answer. I hope it answers the question. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:that's an amazing answer. You know, the great motivator in the gospel is love. You know, look at Christ, love. You know, I think Prison Banks taught us that, you know, different reasons. Remember those training sessions, Jim, where there was a session on, you know, what motivates a missionary? Well, obedience, guilt, except if you went through a different, I think it was a pyramid model he showed. Prison Banks was more of a business kind of leader model. President Dunne was more like a Sergeant Major. I thought I'd join the army with President Dunne, but anyway. So, and President Banks said the ultimate motivator is love, right? Is love. And so if people feel driven and motivated by love and you clearly, it's absolutely abundantly clear that you led your missionaries with love. And that is the ultimate goal and level that I think Jesus Christ, wants people to serve and to live their lives. And I think when you feel that, you feel you want to be your best. I remember I did three minor mistakes on my mission. I slept in twice by accident, felt very guilty. And another time I took the missionaries inadvertently outside of the zone. Inadvertently? Are you really going to tell me that
SPEAKER_00:that was inadvertent?
SPEAKER_02:Well, there was a big question. You were on that trip, and there was a question matter. It was not that trip, but I came into the zone right after that trip. That's right. Well, there was a question, and I got a different opinion from different missionaries. There was an older Casper that was saying, Elder Wilkes, you're good. You can go to, you know, this far. And so, you know, different views on that. Anyway, long story short, Daryl, I took the mission outside of the zone. you know, with good intention on the P-Day. And I spoke to President Banks and his words were, Elder Wilkes, I expected more. I'm disappointed. And that just crushed me. And so I just, I said, I'm so sorry. I felt so terrible. And just that, just because I had so much love and respect for him and he'd spent so much time with me in the missionaries, just like what you did, investing, you know, I didn't feel President Dunne was interested in me. But President Banks was interested in me. He took the time to get to know me personally. And he was really interested in me and caring. And I just felt motivated by love and driven by love. And clearly, you were a President Banks. Jim, you and I have absolutely ultimate respect for President Banks. And you know President Banks, Daryl, as well, right? So you were a President Banks missionary. And I think that's the best missions to be in. Instead of leading by, you know, we had all these tick boxes with President Dunne and tick this and tick this and tick that, et cetera. And, you know, pressure to confess if, you know, under duress at times. Very different approach, leadership style with President Banks. And you felt that you wanted to be your best and lead your best because you felt loved. And clearly you had that experience on your mission. Jim, did you, when you were serving, did you feel... motivated by love as well. That came through President Banks too, did it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it did come through President Banks. I think my personal motivations were really kind of mixed. I think that in a lot of cases, there's a lot more guilt, there's a lot more fear, there's a lot more shame than I think was healthy or is healthy. And Daryl, as I listen to you talk, I hope every single one of your missionaries recognized just how wonderful and unique, maybe not unique, I mean, I don't want to denigrate anybody, other mission presidents out there, but just how blessed they were to have a mission president. that was able to say something like, I didn't care two hoots about how many people they baptized. I cared about them. I mean, that is so absolutely the right priority. It's just, you know, so I'm in the Tabernacle Choir and we just got back a couple of weeks ago from a tour in Peru. And we were in Lima, Peru, and it was just absolutely wonderful. And I got an opportunity to visit I was in an elevator with two sister missionaries in the hotel we were staying in. And I said, oh, your sister missionary's in Peru. Do you know Neil Manley? Because Neil Manley is a mission president in Lima, Peru. He's my wife's first cousin, and we know him and his wife quite well. And I went, oh, good, here are some of Neil's missionaries. And they said, I have no idea who that is. And I went, what? And they said, there are seven missions in Lima, just in the one city. I mean, Lima and Peru, it's just exploding. And we saw that. We did a concert in the big soccer stadium in the center of the city. And it was just jammed. It was like a rock concert. It was amazing. But afterwards, somehow, out of the tens of thousands of people that were there, I was able to find Neil Manley as well. and had a wonderful conversation with him about his experience. And I asked him some kind of similar questions. And his reaction was exactly the same as what you're saying, is that the most important thing is to love the missionaries and to show and demonstrate that love for missionaries. And, you know, I look at my sons. who had very different mission experiences. One of them had a really wonderful experience and the other one, frankly, did not. And the key difference was the mission president and the attitude of the mission president, the attitude of the mission president toward the missionaries. So I just, as I hear you talking about this, I just think, you know, this is exactly... This gives me faith and hope in the future of the church to know that people like you have your priorities in line and are, I think, responding to the example of Christ in terms of how you deal with your missionaries and how you're preaching the gospel. I am very curious now, when you talk about the fourth year, you've now come home, you're now restarting your business. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, cause I talked to like bishops who get released and they're so involved and they're doing great. And then they're released and they come to church and they just sit there and they just, it's like, what do I do with myself? I I'm going three 65, 24 seven, like you're saying. And now all of a sudden here I am. And I I'm not like, And you've been a bishop, you've been a stake president, and now you've been a mission president. That transition's got to be awfully... What do they have you doing in the church right now? Anything? You in the nursery?
SPEAKER_01:I've just been called as Elder's Quorum President, but I've also got an advisor role on several UK committees. Let me answer a couple of questions. You've made a few points. Let me rewind a little bit, and then I'll answer your question, Jim. So, Ian... you knew my dad very well I'm my father's son and tried very hard really hard to to live up to that example and you know what I mean and So that's been something that's been with me all my life. And when I see him, and I will, I'll say, Dad, I did Orchid. And you know what I mean by that, Ian. I do. So that was a big thing for me, Jim, to... And importantly, I want to just correct both of you a little bit. As mission leaders, this wasn't just about me as the mission president. This was about my wife and I, who equally yoked, led that mission for three years with everything that we had and gave it our all. And she had as valuable a part and a role to play um together we we led that mission and we had we had different responsibilities there but it was it was us not me and not her it was together we led And your cousin, Jim, they'll be the same down in Lima, Peru. Now, the differences in Lima, Peru to Belgium, Netherlands are vast. It's a chasm because you've got a vastly different group and culture there as opposed to a secular nation in the Netherlands and Belgium who, frankly, if it hadn't been for these immigrants, would have probably been in decline because there's not a great deal of locals joining church. It's much more immigrants joining church. But since returning home, I think to your last question, yeah, I mean, I don't think, and it's hard, I mean, you two will reflect on your missionary days passionately, with great love, with great emotion, with great experiences, highlighting your life. Now, Having just been in serve for those three years, I've had, there wasn't a day that would go by that there wouldn't be some kind of spiritual confirmation that we were on the Lord's errand. That happened daily. And then if those things were happening daily for us as mission leaders, they were happening frequently for the missionaries. If you look at Elder Cook's recent talk, Quentin L. Cook, and he prioritized where we should focus our efforts on the missionaries. It's the shepherds well before baptisms. It's looking at these young people, these shepherds, because we were losing far too many of them. They were coming home, falling into activity and just leaving the church. But by focusing on them in love is frankly changing the culture of the way that these missionaries are serving in the mission. Now, I've come from a leadership, my home-owned company, leadership, development, training, coaching, facilitation. I've been doing that for years. Others And coming from mission leaders who are coming from big corporates where they're focused on, you know, really running a business. That's, I think, it brings a different culture. But together, we're trying to do it and build the kingdom. To your last question, coming home has been really hard because all of a sudden, it's difficult to slow down. It's difficult to change that pace. So I spoke to two or three return mission leaders and asked their counsel and advice and he says, you've got to keep yourself busy. So those first three or four months back, I've written a book. It's in its final edits now. That kept me busy. I was immediately, not immediately, I was about two months home and they gave me something to do back as a national advisor on UK communications. So I've been involved with government things. I'm part of the temple committee for the new temple coming in Scotland. And then a couple of weeks ago, a month ago, I was called as Elder's Quorum President. But it's hard. it's been difficult for me professionally to build my business again I mean it's been really tough I've been thankful for savings to be honest because we've lived over savings for a while now and yeah just and you've got this you know feeling of your heart is passionately back there in the Netherlands and with the people and you were living at a much higher purpose you were on the Lord's errand and then you're released and you're kind of like how am I going to match that and you never will We never will. We'll never have that opportunity again to do it. And so I coach all 332 of my missionaries. I give them free sessions. I constantly, today I've had two sessions already. And every day I'm speaking with them about the future to try and try and help them but to keep that feeling going and it's it's it's difficult because i need to place that that happened i need to move on in my life um and and i think yeah all of those things come in so it's just really tough really tough jim
SPEAKER_00:so so two questions what is your business that you're rebuilding and what is your book about So the
SPEAKER_01:business, I have my own. So primarily coaching. I do a lot of coaching one-on-one. So I work with senior leaders and I coach them to become better leaders and deal with all the issues that they're dealing with as a senior leader. Or I'll work with senior management teams and coach them in team coaching sessions. I build leadership programs. I design them. I facilitate them, you know, pretty much UK, Europe. I've done it globally for a while. And I'm doing a bit recently, it's much more around neurodivergent stuff, mental health, autism, and I'm working with one or two other companies and in the coaching. So I'm a fellow with the Association for Coaching here in the UK and so I spend a lot of time doing that. My book, I've been a blogger for 12 years now and so I've written some over a thousand blogs. In the mission field, I wrote a lot and I've written a I've taken those blogs and made it into a daily devotional book. So it's a 365 daily devotional book, taking an everyday kind of experience in the mission and actually then sharing a spiritual message from it. So yeah, it's in final edits now. I've got a BYU intern here in Scotland helping me finish off the final edits and I hope to get it to Deseret by the end of this month. And I want to see it on the shelves at Christmas time. I
SPEAKER_00:used to have a contact at Deseret book. My cousin was the head editor, but she has now retired. So I can't help you there. Cause I've got a book I want to get published too. And I'm just, I'm not quite sure how to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well, I tell you, it's a lot harder than you think, Jim, honestly. You know, you always want to try and make little improvements right as you get to the end, and I was out getting read by a few people in final edits, and then there'll probably be a few other things I need to change, you know, but hopefully by, I've nails there, so that's exciting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think, you know, Jim, I know quite a bit about your life, that would be a fascinating book, and I'll definitely would buy it. And of course, Daryl, you know, packing all of your experience into the end of that, it'll be, you know, I'm sure these books will do well. Just one other question I'm listening to, Daryl, and just going a little bit back to your mission leadership experience with you and your wife and, you know, as a partnership. We talked earlier about, you know, love and motivating mysteries, some of the challenges. When I was in my mission, and actually in Dunfermline, we came across individuals who were in very strong opposition to the church. I think even we had the godmakers that were showing up as the Dunfermline or Jambal at one time. I remember speaking to President Dunn and your dad and like, you know, what the heck's going on, et cetera. There was a lot of... And of course, on the doorstep, we'd get questions. And I struggled with some of the questions. What was your... what was the experience like when you had a mystery who were was asked a tough question or maybe a doctrinal or historical question polygamy you know i used to get that a lot on the doorsteps you know polygamy was was the uh probably the most common one um you know uh there's a few of the ones but that was quite uh a common question what was your what was the experience with the mysteries what some of the questions were getting and then when they had maybe tough questions, maybe historical or doctrinal. How did you support the missionaries through perhaps some of those difficult questions that no doubt they would get from time to time?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think, Ian, I don't know if we're just very fortunate or the missionaries' ability is they're coming more prepared. So I... If there were doctrinal issues, and there were, they come up every now and again, it wasn't a very frequent thing. So the missionaries, we had a very close relationship with all of them. So they would generally speak to me in their transfer coaching interview if there were any specific issues. If there was a difficult one that occurred, Then we would call through the mission, through the transfer, and they would speak to me one-on-one about it at a call at night. The kind of typical things that would come up might have been around transgender issues, may have came up once or twice. Intersex was an interesting one that came up once, but that turned out to be one of the most amazing spiritual experiences I've ever had in my life, to be honest. Other than that, Frank, Ian, you're going to think I can't believe you, but honestly, there were very, very few questions that were coming to me as a mission president. There were questions that they came across from people. I remember there was one situation where a guy was... was very interested in joining the church, but he was coming from the church of Satan, which was an interesting church to belong to, quite openly. And that created some doctrinal issues for the missionaries who were teaching this guy from the church of Satan. But Ian, you can see how I'm even answering this question to come up with some real answers for you. I can hardly think of too many examples where there were difficulties One, I think now the missionaries that are coming in are better prepared. They're more able. They're more doctrinally prepared, maybe through their seminary and institute. And so if they were coming to me, it would be a real bobby dazzler. And then we'd talk through it in council together. And that was never an issue. Now, saying that, in our time, we... we never had any missionary return home for a doctrinal issue. There were some issues that needed, there were maybe some mental health issues that occurred or things that had happened before the mission that came into the mission and they hadn't confessed that took them back home. But doctrinally wise, and I know that might sound, I know that in the church today, there are many that are struggling with doctrines and historical facts and things like that. But my experience in the mission was it wasn't much of a concern for our missionaries. And maybe that was down to the relationship we had with them because they could talk to me about anything.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry if that sounds like a bit of a cough. Oh, it's a very honest and very accurate, very reliable experience. And it comes back to what you're saying. If you love someone and you trust someone, you can open up and share your thoughts. You know, there's so much, you know, we have a, you know, and the church is a very long and at times complex history, right? And you're not going to know everything. You're not going to know every answer to every question. You know, we went through the whole experience, all three of us, you know, we had this knowledge and and your knowledge grows, and you might have some answers, and you might not have some answers, and you serve through faith. So, no, I appreciate that answer very much. We're coming to the end of our conversation here, and so I just want to, Jim, ask you, do you have any other thoughts or questions for Daryl? And then Daryl, I want to give you the final word and share anything else, a story, anecdote, an experience, a comment, anything, piece of advice, et cetera, so you can have the closing words. And then following that, we'll wrap up and close it. Jim, any thoughts,
SPEAKER_00:questions from you? Well, I have some thoughts. I don't know that I have any more questions other than to say how grateful I am to hear good news from Europe. I mean, right at the outset, my first question, you said you've been fed a load of rubbish, and I'm actually very happy to hear that because... You hear dire things. You hear, okay, well, the church is growing in Africa, but it's not, and it's growing in South America, and it's growing in the Philippines, and everywhere else it's collapsing. And, you know, I have heard that from a number of sources, and to hear somebody who has served a mission, and I would believe may be one of the most difficult proselyting areas in the world. I mean... the secular societies of Europe are very real. I mean, there aren't seven missions in Belgium the way there are in Lima, Peru. And to hear you from the front lines come back and saying, there's a new resurgence and the church has figured out how to use social media and all of these things. I mean, Ian and I have talked an awful lot about, you know, the church and the missionary program. And I've said for years that, The church was in the middle of a transition that it didn't recognize it was in, which was this sort of transition to using technology, to using social media. And when my sons were serving missions, the church really hadn't quite figured it out to the point where it sounds like they have, or at least the mission in Belgium has, because it had a great mission leader. But it sounds like this is something that the church is getting a handle on. And if the church is growing again in Europe, then that's tremendous news and that's wonderful. And so I just very much appreciate that. I very much appreciate getting a chance to visit with you and to get to know you a little bit and the feel of your spirit, because I really think there will be people of missionary age who are just, or people who've just come back from missions or even not missionary age, who will listen and go, geez, I wish my mission president was like that. I wish I'd had a mission president that had his priorities in line and that really was in touch with what a mission president ought to be. So I just very grateful to visit with you and very much appreciate everything you do and have done and will continue to do. And I'm going to be the first in line to buy your devotional book as soon as Deseret Book puts it on the shelves.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Jim. Well, thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Let me just, I think, a couple of things to finish off. One is that the church is definitely, you know, the church is no longer a Wasatch Front church. It's grown from that kind of Western United States to an international faith. And now it's really, where I see the church now is it's really kind of struggling to grow from the international stage to being a global organization and a global faith. And I think right now as we sit in the last of the last days and preparing for the Savior's second coming, we are seeing how the church is up in its game to starting to be on the global stage. And it's still struggling with getting those things right. And there'll be many more changes to come as the church becomes a player from the international stage to a global player. One little story I'll finish with. I've shared this story before on another podcast thing I did a little while ago, but it really typifies how I felt about the mission. oftentimes I'd be asked, how did you do transfers? How does that work? And so we went through that 27 times. And towards the 24th or 25th time, we'd meet with our assistants. My wife was there. And through the whole transfer, we'd be thinking about where people were going to go. And it was dependent on how many missionaries were coming in and how many were going home and who was moving into leadership, who was moving out of leadership. But there was one transfer. It was about the 24th or 25th one. We'd gone through this whole usual scenario. And it's all online now. It's all virtual. There's no more pictures on walls. It's all online. You can move them around. It's all changed. And we went through the usual cycle, got to the end of the cycle. And boy, oh, boy, we just could not finish it off. couldn't finish it it was like and we went on till late at 9 9.30 and we needed to finish it that night because we needed to announce the transfers the next morning and it would not settle on us and we tried every variation and couldn't get it to match and we were one sister we were one sister short basically and anyway my wife went to bed I was getting late the AP's went away and I thought what am I going to do So I thought, you know what I'm going to have to do? I couldn't get it to match. I thought, I'm going to have to call some of these sisters who are going home and ask them to stay another transfer. And it was really weird. I thought, that's strange. How is this not working out? So I was just about 10, 15. So I get on the phone with this one sister, first of all. President, what are you doing phoning me at this time of night? I says, well, what are you doing when you go home? What are you doing right away? And she proceeded to share a number of things present. You want me to stay? You want me to stay? I says, well, maybe. I says, well, maybe I'll have to get you to stay. I'll give up all of that. I'm happy to stay. Okay. So I thought, right, okay. Then I found another one. And... She says, well, I've got a cruise booked. I'm going away with my family on a cruise when I get home. As soon as I get home, we're going away on a cruise. President, are you wanting me to stay? I says, well, I might. Well, I'll give the cruise up. I'm not going on the cruise. I'm happy to stay. And then I just listened to these two sisters who were amazing. who would just give up everything to have another one transfer in the mission field. You know, I'd have to pull a few strings because they were duty-goers, both of them. But anyway, I says, look, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to sleep on it now, and I'll let you know first thing in the morning. So I go to my bed. I plead with my Heavenly Father. I say, look, I've done everything. I don't know what it is. I'm going to sleep. Help. Please help. What's thy will? And in the wee small hours, 2.57 to be precise, I turn to the clock, I wake up, and as clear as I'm talking to you two this afternoon, I get this strong impression about someone that was completely not even in my realms of thinking. It meant several changes, quite a complex change, and the entire thing that we'd set up And we had just never even contemplated that. And as I went through that change,
SPEAKER_00:and as I went through that next transfer,
SPEAKER_01:I know that that particular transfer, more than any other, was inspired by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, by what transpired that transfer. Now, Ian, you know that I'm just a wee laddie from Abbey View in Dunfermline. I've never forgotten that. And if he can use me and use either of you guys in figuring out his will, then he will. And I testify to you as we close this session that God lives... that Jesus is the Christ, that we are involved in a work that is far beyond the realms of our own mortal understanding. We are on, those missionaries are on his errand and literally they are placed in places that he needs them to be. Ian, you came to Dunfermline, maybe just for this. Years later, you came all that way back They come to my dad's funeral because you love him and you honour him. And I've had the privilege to honour his name all of my life. I've had the privilege to serve in fairly senior roles in the church. And time and time and time again, I've seen his will manifest beyond the puny little mind of this wee lad from Abbeyview in Dunfermline. Because... It happens and it happens when you're on his errand. And I testify to that fact in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Darrell, I want to thank you so much for taking time to meet with us and share your thoughts and feelings. I feel the spirit of your father. I loved him, still love him. and feel grateful that I'm talking to his son. You're an individual, of course. And to Jim's point, I think it's, I think the missionaries that served with you and your mission are immensely blessed by having someone like you who loves and cares and will go above and beyond and do whatever it takes during the mission, after the mission. And those missionaries that responded the way they did during that transfer did that because they love you and they love the Lord. So I want to thank you for your amazing experiences. I also feel confident I can speak on behalf of all the listeners. We have many who I know will listen to this and will feel just a wonderful spirit. So on behalf of all the listeners, to everyone who listens to the Inside Out podcast, we have a growing number of people there who get a lot from these podcasts. Dal, I want to thank you again sincerely for just being just wonderful. And also extend our gratitude to your lovely wife, who is an equal partner. And I'm grateful that you highlighted that. You're a partnership. You're a leadership. And so thank you, Thibault. Love to you and your family and all of you for just being wonderful partners. extraordinary people. And so, Jim, I want to thank you as well for always making an extraordinary, valuable contribution to the conversations. So, Daryl, Jim, to you both, thank you so much. To all the listeners, thank you for taking time to listen. We will look forward to being with you next week on the latest episode of Inside Out. Daryl, thank you. Jim, thank you. Thank
SPEAKER_00:you.