Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilks
The format of Inside Out is simple - Jim Bennett is still on the inside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Ian Wilks is on the outside of the Church. Yet both care about the Church and its future, and both want to see constructive dialogue between those who stay and those who leave. Hopefully, all of us can come to a better understanding of the Church and of each other.
Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilks
A Conversation with Lance Jackson
Ian and Jim are joined by Lance Jackson, a champion hammer thrower, an accomplished opera singer, and a former bishop who discusses his experiences both in and out of the Church.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the only podcast on the earth that delivers a pragmatic and balanced view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the Mormon Faith. I'm your co-host, Ian Mooks, and as always, I'm joined by the polymathic Jim Bennett.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, Jim.
SPEAKER_03:Hello. How are you, sir? Really well, really well. I described you as polymathic.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, indeed. I think that that's probably more generous than you need to be. You know what it means? I do. It means I'm good at a whole bunch of different things.
SPEAKER_03:It's very good. It's very good. I've been trying to come up with long words to describe you and ones that might even confuse you, but I'm failing. I'm not doing a very good job. It seems like you have a command, a knowledge of every word in the English language.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's typical of polymaths, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:That's true,
SPEAKER_02:actually. It
SPEAKER_03:is characterized by knowledge of many subjects. I think you know every word and I can't you out. But anyway, welcome, Jim. It's always wanted to have you and I do this together. So Jim, as you know, and our listeners know, we've had some amazing guests on our podcast program over the last two years, and we're coming up on the two-year anniversary. And for our listeners, we'll be doing a special episode on the history and some of the key interesting conversations conversation we've had with, I guess, on Inside Out and some of the subjects that we've covered. And today, we have yet another amazing guest, all the way from England. And I have the honor and privilege of introducing one of the finest Yorkshire men on the planet. And all the way from England, a very warm welcome to Lance Jackson. Hello, Lance.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, Ian. Thank you very much for your warm introduction.
SPEAKER_03:That's okay. It's an honor I wanted to have you. It really is. And I love your accent. And my friends over there tell me that I've lost my accent a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:You appear to have done, Ian. I
SPEAKER_03:appear to have done. So if you could help me, because you and I are from the same area, if you could help me get my accent back, that would be wonderful. And are you in Birmingham
SPEAKER_01:right now, Lance? Yeah, close by. I've just been explaining to you. We're about seven miles away from Birmingham. We're in a place called Dudley.
SPEAKER_03:Okay,
SPEAKER_01:yes. Famous for Sir Lenny Henry. Yes, yes. Sam Allardyce, and very little else.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I know these names. Jim and some of our listeners in the US might, and Canada elsewhere might not know these names, but Lenny Henry, for sure, he's an amazing comedian. Are you quite close to where the church has announced the temple location being built in Birmingham?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I don't know. I didn't know they had it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, they announced a new temple to be built in Birmingham. It seems like they're going... out all the way to get you back into the church.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So when's that scheduled to begin, Ian?
SPEAKER_03:Well, the church, for years now, including the last conference recently, was it last weekend or so, have been announcing a whole slew of new temples built all around the world. They announced a new temple for Birmingham, where you are, and they've announced a temple in Edinburgh. Right. So there are two new temples being built in the British Isles. I don't know the dates. I think they've got a place and a date now for the Birmingham temple. So you might want to Google that. It's interesting. That's got to be within a stone's throw, I think, from where you are. I think it's actually in, they call it Royal Sutton Caulfield.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, right. Yeah. Well, we know where that is. Yeah. And in fact, that's where my mission officers used to be. Right. Because I served in this area.
SPEAKER_03:You served in
SPEAKER_01:Birmingham. In Birmingham Mission, yeah. So that's where the officers used to be. And the first area that I served in, in Handsworth, that was the first Mormon chapel in the UK.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So that was their claim to fame from there.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I'm just going to give a little bit of a minute, just an intro as well, a bit of context to it. And then I want to get into our conversation and talk about some of the items that you and I talked about as we prepared for this conversation. And so for our listeners, I've known Lance, oh my goodness, I've known you since 1988. when I joined the church in Pontefract. And as you know, the Carlton family took me in. I was homeless. They took me in. And I actually had Heidi's bedroom We had Andreas and Martin, as you know. You know these people. Jim, Lance knows these people very well. And so I started attending the Wakefield Ward. And without trying to embarrass you, and I'll try to make this part of the intro really short, you were the person of everyone that I looked up to. And the reason why is that when I, at that time, you know, in the early, mid-80s, you were... an example of somebody who was preparing to serve a mission it was discussed a lot in the ward i think uh colin calton was the bishop he was i think david was was he the bishop when you left wakefield for your mission
SPEAKER_01:calling yeah yes he was
SPEAKER_03:yeah so he will he will so i so jim i stayed with colin calton i was lived with the caltons for a number of years You know, this family is near and dear to me, and he was the bishop at the time. And Lance was in the Wakefield Ward, Huddersfield Stake, preparing to go on a mission. And wonderful. You were a little bit older, I think, coming into the church, if I'm not mistaken. I
SPEAKER_01:was 23.
SPEAKER_03:You were 23, so slightly older than going on a mission than probably what other missionaries were going on. But you were served as an example, as someone to follow. I remember having lessons, and your example was... mentioned many times in the lessons as i was you know in the youth at that time and i remember you preparing to go to mission and then i remember going to the wakefield bus station there's a handful of people and i saw you off yeah and that was real that was really important to me and i remember waving you on that bus you're heading to birmingham and i remember that i i want to do what you what you did. I wanted to serve a mission. I decided to serve a mission anyhow, but I wanted to do it the way you did. Right. And I also remember that you were, and help me on this, you were preparing to, you were trying to get onto the Olympic team for hammer throwing. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let me clarify all of this then. So, yeah, I was, the national coach, the national hammer coach, Max Jones, there were a group of about five of us who were sort of on the periphery of the national squad. And so he used to come through once a week and we used to train at Clackheaton because that was the nearest place with some good hammer throwing facilities. And so me and some other guys had been invited to do that. And one of the lads that was there, He was the youngest of us. He's called Dave Smith. And he went on to have a really, really good career as a hammer thrower. I was always a better power lifter than I was a hammer thrower. And in 1982, so this had been the first year I was in the church, I won the Yorkshire North East Divisional Powerlifting Championships. That was at Huddersfield, I think, yeah. So, yeah, that was– and it's accurate to say that, you know, I was training another national coach and I was part of that, I suppose, small elite little group there. Right. But just to clarify, I mean, the Hammer is kind of a Cinderella event, really, in athletics. And it's been dominated throughout by Eastern European athletes, particularly– russian or the the soviet union as it was then and east germany that all the best throws came out there although some good throws came out of west germany but for the reason i'm telling you this is because the qualifying distance for a country to send an athlete to at that time to the olympics the qualifying distance was 72 meters And I don't think there was anybody in Britain at that time who could throw 72 metres. So that's the perspective of it. Yes, I was training under the national coach. Yes, I did want to go to the Olympics. But that distance... And David, David Smith, who I've just mentioned, he won the Commonwealth title in... 1982. I'd just got on my mission and I was in my first area. So he won that. He won that, didn't he? And I don't think David even qualified for the 84 Olympics. Because he wasn't throwing far enough. I don't think we sensed a thrower then. He competed in the 88 Olympics, but not then. So that's the background to that. So I think a lot of things have been sort of, had a little bit of journalistic licensing, shall we say, from people other than myself who've related this story. But that was the, yeah, and obviously I gave up because I won the divisionals in February 82 and it was on a Sunday and it was the first time I'd ever missed church. And I felt so guilty that I went back a week after and said, I want to put my mission papers in. So that's how that worked out for me.
SPEAKER_03:That's interesting. And just onto that last point, the person who is partly responsible for developing that story is none other than President Thomas S. Monson. I know. That
SPEAKER_01:wasn't a unique club. Neal A. Maxwell as well and quite a few other general authorities told that story. with varying degrees of accuracy. Right. But yeah, yeah, it did come. It used to be, to be honest, it was a kind of a source of embarrassment at some points, you know, because, I mean, people, when somebody makes a statement, so when Thomas Monson says this, you know, this guy was a cert to go to the Olympics and all this, that's just not true. But it sounds like I've said it to him. Do you know what I mean? It sounds like that's come from my mouth and it never did.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's another interesting part of a conversation, Jim, for sure. Because in President Monson's talk, and I think it was in April 2012 General Conference, President Monson talked about this inspiring story. And I heard this talk and I immediately thought, Mike, that's Lance Jackson. And I told whoever was next to it, that's Lance. I know Lance. I'm now famous through Lance, right? In this talk, President Monson said, you know, talking about this inspiring story about a talented hammer thrower, an Olympian with aspirations to compete in the Olympics. And he made this significant decision to interrupt his athletic pursuit to serve a full-time mission for the church. And then he highlighted the sacrifice and the service of this amazing individual. I'm like, That's Lance Jackson. That's Lance. I'm like, everybody is Lance. So that's extraordinary. So I just wanted to kind of highlight that because you are– You know, for a lot of people, you know, back then, certainly, you know, Martin and many others and Eddie, all these guys and Keith and these people that you know, you were the first person to lead us all by example to serve a mission. So, and I want to thank you for that. You've always been an extraordinary individual and I've always looked up to you and still do. So as we get into this, what we'd like to do, and obviously we want to get Jim's comments and thoughts input as well. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. If you can give us a background as to your, you know, how you joined the church. You mentioned you joined in 82, same year as I did. What was that experience like? You know, I think the mission has taught you, you came into the church, you then participate in the church with this sort of mission. Share a bit of experience on that. Um, you, um, you then came home and just tell us a bit of a bit of a journey in terms of what happened and, and then what happened in regards to any discoveries that you made and any changes, you know, did you stay in the church? Did you leave the church? And then, you know, going forward from there, we'll talk about where you are now and, and your perspective on life. So what. What's your backstory in terms of the church?
SPEAKER_01:Right, well, I grew up in the Roman Catholic religion. I was brought up by my grandparents, and my granddad used to go to Mass basically every Sunday. So from being a little kid, I used to go out to Mass with him. And I used to tell my children, if they got bored at church, when I was their age, I had to sit through a Mass in Latin. So no sympathy from my end whatsoever. And I didn't realize at the time, Ian, but my granddad was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church because he'd married my grandmother, who was a divorcee, and she had five children. And they lived together. Divorces used to take ages to come through then. So... he met her in 1938 and they weren't able to get married from her divorce didn't come through until 1952 so but he'd been excommunicated I didn't realise that but I knew that he didn't take communion and he didn't attend confession and he died when I was 16 so he died in 1973 and On his deathbed, he was able to have his confession heard and he was given the Roman Catholic equivalent of sacrament. And I remember thinking when I heard that news, I thought, well, if it was right to deny him those things throughout his life, then why was it suddenly appropriate to give them to him just because he was dying? And so I became quite disillusioned then, I suppose, with that. And although I wouldn't have articulated it in this way at the time, I knew the Catholic Church couldn't be true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So... I would have always classed myself as a believer in God during that period, but I didn't have any religious leanings. If anybody asked me what religion I was, I'd say Catholic, but I didn't have any real religious leanings. I didn't go out to church or anything like that. So in 1981, now that we're talking, I'd been out one night, Thursday night, and I stayed at a friend's house. And then I was walking home. I was walking through town in Wakefield. Do you remember where C&A used to be? What's it called again? C&A. I
SPEAKER_03:remember. Yeah, just top of Westgate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's it, mate. Yeah. So there's these three guys. They were a threesome. Stood outside this... Outside CNA. And I'm approaching him. And I could see all these people veering away from him. Right. And I felt really sorry for them. As I got closer, I realized they were really quite young guys. I felt quite sorry for them. So I decided that I would... I thought, well, I'll stop and talk to them. And so this lad, Sean Hurst, they called him. And he said... do you mind if I ask you a question? So I says, no, I don't mind at all. So he said, what's the most important thing in your life? And so I said, winning. And then I explained that, you know, I was a, I was a strength athlete and winning was probably the one. And he said,
SPEAKER_02:I thought you said women.
SPEAKER_01:If I, if I'd been honest, Jim, I would have said women and, That might have been Jim's answer.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:But I said winning. Anyway, he said, if I can show you something more important than winning, would you be interested? So I said, well, if you can do that, yeah, I would. So I arranged for him to come to my house, really. These missionaries at Street contacted me. It wasn't them that came. It was the zone leaders who were actually just based just over the road from me, really, where I was living then. And so I started getting taught the discussions by them. And when they first taught me, the first discussion then was the first vision, like the introduction to the Book of Mormon. And I remember thinking at the end of that session, I don't really believe it, but if it's true, then it's important that I find out. And that was my take on that. I wasn't convinced, but if it was true, I knew that it was important. And so I went through the investigation process and gained a testimony. And I got baptized then in August the 5th, 1981. And... One of the, one of the first problems I encountered really with church was as an athlete, because we, a lot of competitions were held on a Sunday and I was told, you know, well, we don't really, you know, we don't work on a Sunday. We don't do like recreation and stuff and we don't watch TV and we don't, you know, buy things from shops. So keeping the Sabbath, I thought, well, you know, that's going to be a challenge. But it just turned out, I mean, that coincided with the end of the athletic season. The lifting season began again in October, but the athletic season then ended in August. So it just happened that I didn't have to make that decision because the season was already over in terms of that. And as I say, I went then. That would be the August 81. Then in February 82, I won the Yorkshire and North East Divisional Championships. I weighed 110 kilos. I was in the 110 kilo class, heavyweight class. And I won that. And that was the first Sunday that I'd ever missed church from joining. And I felt really guilty. And so the week after, I think Colin must have been on holiday or something. Colin, it was Vic Wainwright that were sort of the bishopric representative. And I went in and said, you know, I want to put my papers in for my mission. That was what I decided then. And he said, well, that's amazing because we've sort of highlighted three of you. You, his son, Simon.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, Simon,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. And Eddie, Eddie Tomlinson.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the ironic thing is that a few years down the life, me and Eddie Tomlinson actually both did serve missions, but Simon Wainwright didn't, and his dad encouraged him to get his career sorted first. I think with Vic, he's always had a bit of these, one rule for me and my family and one rule for everybody else. Anyway, put my papers in, and I got my notification back that I'd been called to the England-Birmingham mission. So I thought, well, that's exciting.
SPEAKER_03:Lance, for our listeners, how far is that from where you live?
SPEAKER_01:It's probably about 90 miles, I think. 90
SPEAKER_03:miles. Yeah. So Jim, what's that to you, Jim? What's 90 miles from you?
SPEAKER_02:90 or 19? 90. 90? Yeah. So I'm in the Salt Lake area, so that would be like being called to Logham.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, I mean, it wasn't a glamorous calling. When I first got it, I'm looking for Alabama after Birmingham, but unfortunately it said West Midlands. And I went on my mission within 12 months. So I joined... I went through the temple, because you had to be in a year. So I went through the temple the beginning of August, with my one-year anniversary. And then I went on my... I actually started being on my mission on the 1st of September. So within 12 months, I was serving a full-time mission. And I was good at it, as it happens. And... In fact, I still make this claim, and I've never had anybody could refute me on this. I was an AP after eight months on my mission. So basically, I've been in the church 20 months. In the church 20 months. I've been on my mission eight months, and I was called to be the assistant to the president. So I still claim that as a world record. I've never had anybody who's told me any different than that. Anyway, I was a... I used to baptise in missionary, you know, did well. And one of the people, I'm going to introduce this person now, because I happen to be married to her. But one of the people that I met quite early on in my mission. So after I was a greenie for two months, then after a greenie, he made me, my president made me a district leader. So I was a DL after two months. And then after four months, I was a DL and I had a training responsibility. So I had a greenie. Right. And then shortly after that, I got caught. I got, that would be about what? January. I got, anyway, I got called to be an AP after a bit or his own leader for a month. And then I were an AP after eight months.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. That's fine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I guess it was. Yeah. I came home. When I came home, I mean, I think I've probably held, every senior calling at ward level. I've been a bishop, a branch president. I preached group leader. I've been an elders quorum president twice. I've been a ward mission leader three times.
SPEAKER_03:I was your counsellor as elders quorum president.
SPEAKER_01:You were. You were. And a very good one too, young man. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:I'll send you the money after.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, all right, mate. And then throughout that, I also taught seminary and institute. But when I came home from my mission, I went to university. And so throughout my undergraduate years, I held senior callings and I taught seminary and institute throughout that. And this is how dedicated we were, right? The week before my finals of my first degree, The weekend, my finals began on the Monday and went through till Friday. And Sunday, obviously, was the Sabbath. So I didn't even revise for my, the day before my finals, first final exam, because I'd have been breaking the Sabbath. That's how crazy that was. And I mean, I was greeted that Monday morning by a load of other, you know, micro... compadres on my undergrad course and they were all like propping their eyes up with matchsticks because they'd been up all night revising and I'd strolled in and I hadn't done any revision on the day before. So, yeah, we took it seriously. It's fair to say. While I was on my mission as well, I don't know if Jim's aware of this guy, but you know Jeff Capes, don't you, Ian?
SPEAKER_03:I do. Oh, he's a big name in the
SPEAKER_01:UK. Well, he's just died recently, bless him as Jeff. But Jeff, he was a phenomenal strength athlete. And at that time, he was the reigning world's strongest man. And he basically threw out this challenge to all West Midlands guys who think they are strong. You could register for this. It was the Ennsford Raceway, and he'd be in a five-ton lorry pulling contest with Jeff. So I went along in a T-shirt, a sweatshirt I'd made up that said on the front, Jeff Capes sleeps with a light on. So enormously disrespectful. And all credit to the man himself, took it very much in good humour. And we remained friendly throughout, you know, the rest of our dealings with each other. Lovely. As I say, he died last year, did Jeff.
SPEAKER_03:You became friends with Jeff Capes?
SPEAKER_01:Jeff Capes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. Jim, our listeners won't know this, but Jeff Capes is a huge name. I mean, a very famous athlete in the UK.
SPEAKER_02:What does that mean, he sleeps with the light on?
SPEAKER_01:Well, because people who sleep with the light on are like little and scared, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:okay. This guy was like a quarter inch under six foot six and weighed 25 stone, which is what? In American, that's 220 pounds.
SPEAKER_03:That's a large man.
SPEAKER_01:That is one big man, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And when Lance talks about pulling a lorry, that's a truck, Jim. I've got that one. Yeah, you know this, Jim. I mean, you're familiar with the UK lingo, right? Okay, Lance.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so, well, as I said, I finished my Michigan home, did my undergraduate degree. I had senior call-ins. throughout that time and it really I mean when I look back now it's really detrimental to me in my first degree because um instead of spending time um you know revising and doing academic stuff I did all that but I was also um holding down these, which is, you know, very time-consuming callings. And as I say, when I say I taught seminary and institute, I mean I taught seminary and I taught institute at the same time. So there was a lot of reading going on. I was very busy in church. Church keeps you very busy. And that kept me very busy. And I think, you know, to be honest, it was very detrimental to me in my first degree. devoting all that time to church service. So, yeah, that element. I mean, I got a good degree, and I graduated honours in three years instead of four. But, as I say, I think I could have done even better had I... What was your degree in, Lance? Behavioural sciences. Right.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:which is probably my favourite academic area ever, but has not been... I'm going to start taking it up again, because I went on to study other stuff as a postgrad. So because I was involved in music and stuff, because I needed to know my way around opera scores and things like this, and I had very little music education. And so for some reason, I went to... I thought, well, I'd better... Get myself at least some knowledge. I was singing with amateur groups at the time. We were very good. But in terms of the technical aspects of music, I wasn't. And so I decided to do some more studying into that. And I enrolled at Wakefield College, basically to do a GCSE. So this was after my degree. And I did a degree and then I did a teaching qualification. So I thought, well, if ever I wanted to teach music, I'm going to need to know my way around it. So I did this GCSE. But what happened with that was that this is when GCSEs were proper GCSEs. And as part of the package, you had half an hour with a coach on your own instrument. So my instrument was my voice. And then you had, sorry, an hour a week, private tuition with a tutor. And then you had a secondary instrument, which if you couldn't play it, it was the piano. So you got half an hour a week on that. But anyway, when I got this, I met my personal tutor, who was called Hilary Jackson, funnily enough. And she was a soft soprano up and off. So as you're doing these things, you take along an audition piece. So I took along Isis and Osiris from the Magic Flute. And I sang about four lines. She stopped playing. And she said, have you got any idea what you've got there? It's a decent noise and that, but, you know. She says, no, that is a really, really unique... I've rarely come across this kind of voice. And she said, would you mind coming and singing for my husband? Now, her husband, she's Hilary Jackson. He's Paul Wade. And he was a principal tenor at Opera North. And so I went through to see Paul. And he basically said, you know, can I... I'd love to be able to coach you and stuff. I think he was coming towards the end of his career and looking more towards coaching. Anyway, so that was my introduction to professional opera and Opera North. And so it was a very fortuitous sort of break that really. So how
SPEAKER_02:old were you when this happened?
SPEAKER_01:So I would be then, so I'd just finished, I'd probably be 30, 31. Okay. Yeah. But so, and it never occurred to me up to then that I could probably earn a living through singing opera. Well, I hadn't even really come across any opera until I joined the church. And did I ever tell you that story about Jack Hargrave's car?
SPEAKER_03:I know you and I, with others, prepared Jack's body. We did. And
SPEAKER_01:I was heartbroken.
SPEAKER_03:That was heartbroken. I lived with Sylvia, as you know, that lived with their bit for a year. So I knew Jack quite well. But yeah, I know this person, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So Jack, he was a good bass with Jack. Very good.
SPEAKER_03:Coal miner from Street House, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was. He was great, but it was the first time I'd heard a proper bass, you know, live, if you like. And I remember I were in church, and I didn't really know a lot about music. And so, like every other person who goes through the door doesn't know about music, I'm trying to sing this melody line, which were inaccessible to me, because it's written for sops and tenors. So it was too high for me, so... But I heard this like cavernous sound coming from the other side of the chapel. So next week, the week after, I went and sat next to him. And he was singing. And I could join in with him, but he wasn't singing the same line as other people in the congregation. So I said to him after, he was singing the bass line, obviously, I realized later. So I said to him after, I said, I can sing it. When I'm leaning on you, how come I can't sing the melody line? And he said, this is Jack, right? This is Jack's words, not mine. Well, that's because of that bass, lad.
SPEAKER_03:There you
SPEAKER_01:go. And then he went on to say, and they're a bloody good bass and all. Right,
SPEAKER_03:right. Yeah, that was Jack.
SPEAKER_01:So I went... they invited me along to, to Charleston male voice and stuff like that. So I just, I didn't really start. I mean, I've got the church to thank in a lot of ways for, you know, introducing me to that, that wonderful world of, of, of classical and sacred music.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So you, you became a, I mean, you had this passion for opera singing and you, I heard you sing. I was listening to the choir, Huddersfield choir as well, I think at stake. and Wayfield Choir, and then you became a professional bass. And of course, you've got Jim here, who's a... Is it right to describe you as a professional singer in the Marmotamico Choir, Jim? I think that's right. It would not be
SPEAKER_02:right to... Nope. I'm a volunteer. I'm not paid. So don't you have to be paid to be a professional?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's the criteria.
SPEAKER_02:I've been paid to sing on... some occasions but i certainly haven't made a living at it so uh no i don't think it would be appropriate to call me professional but uh i and i'm very impressed the the idea of becoming a professional opera singer i mean that's such a rarefied sort of career there are very few people that are able to do that and to sort of arrive at that in your 30s yeah uh i just think that's Unbelievably impressive.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. And even more so considering I'm a working class lad from a council estate in the northeast of England. Yes. So that wasn't really a defined career path for many folk, really. So, yeah. And then before, going back a little bit, in 1984, when I'd come home from my mission, I married Nancy. who you know. Yeah?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Yes, I know Nancy.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm going to say something that's probably awful now, but I never loved Nancy. No, I was never in love with Nancy. I loved her. And let me tell you the reasoning behind marrying her. Obviously, I'd come quite away in church in a very short time, so very naive in church. And Spencer W. Kimball... and was the prophet at the time, he came out and made this statement. And he said, basically, any two people who are living the gospel can have a happy marriage. So with that in the background, I then got Brian Ford and John Barnsley singing the praise of this woman who I'd never... Oh, Nancy. Nancy, you know, she's your ticket to Celestial Kingdom kid and all this. And I met Nancy the Sunday before I went on my mission. She was one of... several young ladies who wrote to me and her tenure was the longest. And basically I decided to marry her. And I really, I feel very sad for, I feel sad for me, but I feel very sad for her that the man she married never really loved her in the way that Her husband loves her wife. But I knew when I married her, I knew that she would always be faithful in church. I knew she'd bring my kids up in church. And so all those things which were important, those bases were ticked. But contrary to what President Kimball says, it wasn't a happy marriage because I wasn't comfortable throughout it. I wasn't happy with Nancy. because I just didn't have that love for her. And marriage is hard enough. But when you don't really fully love your wife, it becomes impossible. But having said that, we had three biological children together and we stayed together for 27 years. While on my mission, I taught a young person. called Anita Jones. And I was training in Litchfield at the time. And we met Anita's family. They'd all joined the church, but she hadn't. And so we'd gone round there, as you do as missionaries. And it was one of those things that when I met her, I would immediately... drawn to it. We had a connection from the word go and it wasn't an inappropriate connection because she was only 14 at the time. We were just people who just enjoyed each other's company. And in fact, Anita was a bridesmaid at my wedding. I came to realise as the years went on that what I felt for Anita was very different to what I felt for my wife. And I know that's awful. It really is. And I take no pride in that at all. But I never really loved Nancy. And so we had three children together, Naomi, Ben and Chris. And then when Christopher was old enough, because he was quite happy to be the youngest member of the family, young Christopher, And we did everything in consultation with the kids in regard to fostering. We decided we'd like to foster, to give some kids who hadn't had a great chance in life to experience something good and wholesome. And so we decided to do long-term fostering. because that way the kids weren't getting moved. So you've got short-term and long-term fostering. I don't know if you know this, Ian. But short-term, a kid's been removed from his immediate family. They're put into with a family for a short period until a long-term foster placement can be found for them. We were long-term fosters. First people we fostered were a brother and sister from Pontefract. And their background was not good. Their parents were heroin addicts. And this might sound contradictory, but they were nice people. They were nice people just in the grip of a horrible substance. And they couldn't look after these kids at all. So, Tyler and Jasmine came to us. And then we fostered kids who were basically very difficult to place. And so we, Tyler had learning difficulties and Jasmine came with him. And then we fostered another young kid called Chelsea and she had Curzon syndrome. It's where when they're born, the skull closes up too quickly. And so a typical feature of somebody with that would be like their eyes might look like they're bulging out and things. So we took Chelsea in because nobody else wanted her. And then we then, a bit later on, took in another brother and sister who had been... This is a bit of a complex one as well. Their father had been married to Angie Priest, who was a member in Wakefield, and they'd divorced, and he'd had these two kids with someone else, and they were living in Spain. So he died, and the mother abandoned him. So they were in a Spanish orphanage. And when Angie found out about this, even though the only relationship really that she had to him was she would perform a wife of their dad, But she brought him back to the UK. And then Jeff Warriner, who was the bishop, she couldn't look after him, but she just, you know, she looked after him for as long as she could, but she really needed somebody else to step in. And so Jeff Warriner got in touch with us and asked if we could take these two. And basically we said, yeah. So we got these, we got five foster children as well as the three birth children.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So that's, you know, as I listen to you and you start and there's a lot of you, I didn't know until this conversation. So you're in the church, you're married, your family, you know, you've shared about your feelings about your relationship. You devoted to the church. I think you was the Bishop of Pontefract at one point, if I'm not
SPEAKER_01:mistaken. I was the first Bishop of Pontefract, yeah. You were
SPEAKER_03:the first Bishop of Pontefract. That's the branch that I joined before I went to Wakefield. You had this attitude of winning from the early stages. You grew up on Lipset Council Estate, I think, if I'm not mistaken. I did, indeed. And you had aspirations to do something wonderful with your life, which you did, clearly. You served a mission. Became a bass singer. You made a home for foster children, creating a positive experience. What happened after that period, Lance, in terms of the church? So you were serving the church. At some point, you... I think, disenfranchised with the church.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, I did, yeah. Well, it was... So these five children were with us. They'd been with us for several years at this point. We were going through the process of adopting the two youngest, the two kids that come from Spain. And I became ill, basically. This was 2008. I was doing some postgraduate work at Hull University, and I became ill. And first I was ill physically, and then I became ill mentally as well. And it was just a steady downward spiral, Ian. What happened was, I don't know, again, how aware you are about this, but in 2007, they brought in the Religious Discrimination Act as an Act of Parliament. And basically, anybody who was discriminated against on grounds of religious belief, that it was illegal. And we became very much pariahs in this foster care setup because a new woman had taken over who obviously had nothing down for organized religions in general and Mormonism in particular. And she was very, very, well, openly hostile to us. And over a period of time, in 2008, as I say, I became ill. And then between 2008 and 2010, basically, she had all the kids killed. removed from us. And it was as blatant a case of religious discrimination as you could have encountered. I went to see my state president. Well, not when it ended, it was going on. And I said, look, you know, we've been, there's no doubt here that we are being discriminated against because we're Mormons. And, you know, so is there anything you can do? And he said, well, you know, I explained everything to him. He says, oh, Lance, it seems like you've got a real case there. He says, I'll I'll take this higher up the food chain and I'll get back to you. And so he did that. By this time, we'd had all the kids removed. And I was, as I say, I was ill, Pauline. I was developing. I mean, I think it would be fair to say I had a nervous breakdown. And so... I went to see my state president again. I said, well, you know, what are we doing about this? And he says, well, I've been in touch with the area president or whoever it was. And he said, the church doesn't want any involvement. I said, what? He said, the church won't be involved in that to bring this case. And I remember thinking, why would you not? I mean, I came to realize that the reason that they wouldn't is if they came into an open court, they would have to embellish on some of the you know the less than mainstream doctrines of the church if you like so but anyway we lost all these kids my son Ben had served in Japan and he'd come home and Chris and then Chris was serving in at one of the London missions during this time. I mean, we were having to phone them up and tell them, you know, this is, you know, you remember your sister Jasmine, she ain't going to be here when you get back. And then it, so it just, yeah, it destroyed me. I think it's fair to say it was, it was like a bereavement really. You know, I'd lost five children and I was powerless over it and we couldn't have any contact with them. And so at that time, I remember... Well, I started self-medicating.
SPEAKER_03:Can I ask you, did they give specific reasons for removing the children? Were they specific, like doctrine or policies
SPEAKER_01:or something? Well, yeah. Well, they did. Tyler, who was the eldest of the kids that we adopted, we'd gone on holiday, and it was during school term time. Now, Tyler... at the intellectual capacity of a four-year-old, really. And we'd gone on holidays before with them, like to France and places like this, but this particular time they said, no, you can't take Tyler out of school. And so he said, okay. And they said, well, he can be temporarily fostered by a respite carer. So you come back off your holidays, fair enough. So Tyler had gone to this place, and basically I think the woman had offered him a cup of tea. Oh, no, he'd said, you know, I'd love a cup of tea, but I can't. And so this woman said, well, I can't have a cup of tea. Oh, well, they won't let me. They won't let me. And they started to paint a picture of us, you know, sort of implanting our– They knew we were Mormons, we were foster carers. In fact, it was almost, you know, a box ticker in some respects. But anyway, this became under this woman. We were denying him stuff on the basis of our religious beliefs. And we went through all this panel. And I don't do myself any favours because I can't keep my mouth shut, really. And on this panel, there was a woman and she was a Muslim. And they were basically questioning me about, you know, inflicting my religious beliefs on people. So I said to her, I said, let me just ask you this. I said, if you fostered a kid and that kid came to your house and didn't want to report by, what's your stance? And, oh, it's got nothing to do with it. But so you see, I don't, I don't do myself favours sometimes, but I won't, I won't shut up if I think so much wrong. Anyway, that was the process. And they just painted this picture of us being, religious fanatics who were imposing our weird religious beliefs on these children that came to us and that we shouldn't be allowed to do that. We shouldn't be foster carers anymore. And basically they took us off the foster carers register and we lost all the kids, which absolutely broke me. I mean, that's what led to the mental illness, to the breakdown. Do you want anything else on that, Ian? No,
SPEAKER_03:I'm just so sorry that you had to go through that. And obviously I'm disappointed that the church, when you needed them the most, they weren't there. So when the church made that decision then, how did that impact your confidence and faith in the church when they basically about
SPEAKER_01:you? It shattered it. Because I'm thinking, well, you know, this is supposedly the true church on earth. We should be challenging these things. But as I say, I came to realize, you know, that the reason that they hadn't, it was because they would have to explain the belief system in an open court. And let's face it, an open court in England, it would have just ridiculed a lot of things that we taught. Right. And so during that period, I just couldn't take it. Physically, I was unable to get out to church a lot. But mentally, I was just sinking into despair. And I started self-medicating. I started first, through being an athlete, through being in the military, I'd carried injuries around all the time. And I've still got a dodgy back. And I'd been prescribed very strong painkillers for a long time. I didn't always use them every week, but I used to store them in case I ever ran out or whatever. And so I had access to all these really strong painkillers, codeine-based painkillers. And so I started taking them to make me feel better, taking them in excess quantities. Right. And then, and I don't know if you know anything about like opioid addiction, Ian, but what happens is, I mean, you build up a tolerance for it. So whereas the 10 tablets would initially give, you know, give you a high or, you know, help you remove yourself mentally from the situation, it increased to, you know, 15, 20, 30. just ridiculous amounts. And obviously then I was running out of this spare stock that I had. I still had them on prescription, but it wasn't enough. So then I started supplementing them with alcohol as well. And I was just, I mean, that didn't help the illness any. So it was just that downward spiral. And that was sort of between 2007, I want to say, and 2010 and I went from we had because a lot of my work as an opera singer had been freelance because I was a principal you know I was freelance and so I'd not really got like any pension schemes or anything like that but I'd invested in property and I got these two railway cottages that I bought and I knocked them in so I had like a six bedroom house and some land out the back. And that was my retirement fund, basically. I planned to retire at 55 and either sell up and move to the south of France, where property was really cheap, or basically rent them out as flats. Because where we lived, it had great access to M62, M1. So it was a lovely area. It was all tufts. And so... We were going to maybe use it as student accommodation. That was my retirement plan. And we lost everything, basically. There was a financial crash in 2008. That didn't help. I had two credit cards at that time, and they had 25 grand on each. And basically, Nancy kept spending like I was still on, you know, 50 grand a year or whatever it was. And obviously there wasn't the money coming in, so she was using these cards. And basically, long story short, within about 18 months, no, two years, I'd say probably, we'd lost the houses and we were living in private rented accommodation. So that's how quick you can go on a downward slope, really. And so... That was all that wiped out.
SPEAKER_03:Were you serving as the bishop at the time, or was this after the bishop calling?
SPEAKER_01:No, mate, this was after. When I preached group leader, I think when all this started to kick off.
SPEAKER_03:Right, okay.
SPEAKER_01:But... But as I said, I didn't go out to church. I couldn't physically manage to go out to church. I had this postural hypertension, which in fact, I mean, I've still got it. But when you move posture, so say you go from prone to sitting or from sitting to standing, it's like your blood pressure plummets to dangerous levels and basically you fall over. And so I couldn't physically get out to church. But as I said then, it became where I didn't really want to. And at about that point then, I think ironically, Nancy got in touch with Anita. I forget how it would be, but it was on Facebook. And one of them had sent a friend request or something like this. Anyway. So I started talking to Anita and she was like my voice of sanity. And Anita hadn't, after I'd baptised her, she hadn't remained active really for long. She said since, you know, I joined the church because of you, basically. But we'd remained sort of intermittently in contact over the years. But she was still, you know, my favourite person. And talking to her was just like a breath of fresh air. I didn't have to... You know, I feel guilty about religion. I didn't have to validate anything, really. She just let me talk. And, you know, I mean, you know what's going to come next. I thought to myself, you know, I've always been attracted to her. I'm not in love with Nancy. And so, basically, I left home and moved in with Anita. And that straightaway then... In 20 moments, I realized it invalidates me now from everything because I'm just doing this because I'm an excommunicant and I wanted to leave the church to sin. That wasn't exactly, that wouldn't be accurate. Anyway, I moved in with Anita. I got excommunicated. Obviously, that was going to happen. But then, so I'd moved here in 2011 and Anita was still on the church records. So there was an older missionary couple in the ward that served this area. And they'd just come round, you know, they've got an inactives list, basically, and Anita was there. And, you know, she let them in because she's a kind and lovely person. And they were lovely people. And they used to come round and, you know, socialise with us and have meals and we'd go to theirs. Well, you know, it's the church reactivation program. And I wasn't quite ready to go back. But we started going out to church again. So when we went back out to church, there were quite a lot. I mean, obviously, I didn't participate much, if at all, because of my membership status. I was excommunicated. And, you know, Anita did. And then we invited the... We went out a few times. And then we invited, you know, the young missionaries that were also serving in the ward, the elders. We invited them over for a meal. Because I've always had this philosophy that, you know... I'd hoped when my lads were on missions that people would invite them around for meals and feed them. And so we'd always, I'd done it with Nancy. And so we had the, anyway, with these young lads coming around. And they were scheduled to come around this Friday evening. And they were due at 6.30. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, I'm getting re-involved with the church here. And if I'm going to have any, you know, I'm involving Anita, if I'm going to have any, and there are things that I need to clear up. Now, we've always got things, Ian, and I'm sure this is true of us all. Some people call it their shelf. I used to call it like my Mormon box. And things will come up doctrinally or church history-wise, and you... you'll think, well, you know, that sounds a bit, you know, it doesn't sound quite right. But then you put them, well, you know, I know the church is true. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know, you know, and you go through this self-hypnosis process. And I, but I said, I'm going to investigate the church. There were two major issues at the time for me. There were a load, excuse me, there were a load, but I mean, obviously, you know, the things that are put in the past, polygamy, black people and the priesthood, 116 missing pages, that sort of thing. But this was two quite specific things that told me recently. One was the Mike Wallace interview with Gordon B. Hinckley.
SPEAKER_03:Is that the 60-minute interview?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Right. I remember watching that. Jim, you've seen that, haven't you?
SPEAKER_01:I have, yes. And the other was DNA. So, and this Michael Wallace interview, I'll just remind you. One of the things that Godme Inkley was asked was this little quote thing that we'd had in church. This is when I was active in church, where it says, as man is, God once was, as God is, man can become, yeah? And President Hinckley just sort of went really dismissive about this. And he said, you know, do we really teach that? It's just, you know, just a little ditty. I remember thinking, I hope we teach it. Because A, it's a basic tenet of Mormonism. And B, I just taught it last Sunday. So, you know, that flummoxed me. He
SPEAKER_03:actually said, sorry, he said, I don't know if we still teach that or teach that.
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly right. Is that right, Jim? That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, to me, that's a fundamental tenet of Mormonism is that, you know, we can become like unto God. So there was that one that I thought, I'm going to look at this. And then there was the whole DNA thing with Native American, I mean, Indians who were designated as being the principal ancestors of, The Lame Knights were the principal ancestors of the people on the American continent and this Gordon B. Hinckley. And I thought, I'm just going to research that and say, I'm not going to look at it through faith. I'm not going to think, you know, well, I'm going to put my faith head on and be fobbed off. I thought, I'm going to look at this like an academic. Like the academic I am, I'm looking at this in that way. And it took me, I swear on anything that I hold sacred, seven minutes. Seven minutes of, and I use all church sources. And I turn that to Anita and I says, I've just lived a lie for 30 years. And then obviously I went on and looked further and further into it. And there were just some things that I hadn't allowed myself to think about. There were just so many things. And it was all from the church's own history, really. And I thought there's an absolutely... I've been deluding myself for 30 years. And I went through a period of, I mean, absolute just anger. I was so annoyed that I'd given up... Such a large part of my life. As a young man, I'd given up on my athletic dreams. As an older man, I'd sacrificed my first degree, really, which I could have got a lot better classification for. I'd have been revising and not serving in all these key positions and teaching seminary and institute. All those things that came to me that I'd sacrificed. And I thought, you know, you've conned me. Because if the church had actually presented it to me in the way that reality pans out and in the way that they acknowledge it these days, I wouldn't have joined. I wouldn't have joined the church. Somebody would have said to me, if they're missionaries, they'd have said the first time they taught me, about First Vision. Now, actually, Lance, you know, this is a First Vision. There were five of them. And he gave different accounts in each. But this is the one we've landed on. I just thought, what? And also, I've become quite interested in what I call church art. And, you know, as a mission, we used to teach you the flip chart and all that and these pictures, these iconic Mormon pictures, if you like, like the one of the first vision, you know, the two separate and distinct individuals, Joseph on his knees in the sacred grove. And also like the translations, you know, Joseph sat in, you'll know these pictures, Joseph sat in front of a, you know, goat plates and he's writing stuff down. We know these pictures, yeah. And it just, all by the church's own admission. It just didn't happen like that. And if it had been put to me, as I said, when the missionaries first came round, I thought, I don't believe it, but I owe it to myself to find out if it's true. And if they'd have presented it to me in the honest way, I wouldn't have joined. I'd have thought, well, you know, it's a nonsense. So that was the... Yeah, that was... I was just fuming. And I don't know if you remember it. I remember you getting in touch with me and rebuking me.
SPEAKER_03:So what happened is that I was talking back and forth with Nancy. I don't know how the conversation started. Nancy had mentioned that you'd left the church. I don't remember the details. Going back a few years. And Jim, back then, Jim, I was very active. I think it was on the state presidency here in Canada. And felt worried about my friend, Lance, concerned for him, you know, his welfare, spiritual welfare. Nancy and I were backing forward. I said, look, I'll reach out to him and chat with him and try to figure out, you know, what's happening. Because Lance, you were always this, and still are, of course, you were just this amazing rock in the church. And now you weren't in the church. And I couldn't understand why. And that was completely, you know, like you were completely immersed.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so, Jim, I attempted to try to engage Lance on some stuff, and I apologize for rebuking you. Did I rebuke you? I'm so sorry about that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, you didn't do anything. You didn't say anything to me that I wouldn't have said to somebody in my position before I left the church. Right. So I fully knew where you were coming from. And, you know, however much you think you felt about me, I felt the same about you. We reciprocated. I always thought you were a fine young man who grew into a fine man. And I knew how dedicated you are. You served in Scotland and you obviously had a great love for the people that you taught and things like that. So, you know, you're a very admirable man. And so I didn't take it. I didn't do it badly. It wasn't anything I didn't really expect, if I'm honest, Ian, from you. But, you know, I remember when I... I'd been here about six months. And Anita said to me, do you realise, Lance, that in six months... These people who you thought were your friend over 30 years, only one of them has bothered to be in touch with you. And that was John Barnsley. And I thought about that. And I thought, well, I think my initial reaction was, I wasn't surprised. I thought, well, yeah, you know, that's a church thing, really. You know what I mean? Somebody goes off and, you know, you don't want polluting by their... apostate teachings and stuff. So I wasn't sure I wasn't even hurt. But she, you know, she pointed that out. And I remember thinking, because I was starting to think, you know, outside of the Mormon bubble at that point, I'm thinking, well, yeah, that ain't normal. That isn't a normal thing that you do to your mate. You know, you get in touch, you know, and say, you know, so I'm here for you. If nothing else, I'm here for you, you know. But nobody asked. And I'm back in touch with a lot now of people, a lot of people who have left the church, by the way. But, yeah, it's a similar reality for everybody, I think, who goes down the route that I do. Jim,
SPEAKER_03:when you hear this story, you know, you and I have had many, many conversations with wonderful guests on our podcast. When you hear Lance's experience, what are your thoughts and feelings in terms of... you know, the whole thing, how it rolled out and not Lance's experience.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the first thing that just comes to mind is Lance, you said it only took seven minutes. I'm very curious as to what it was that you were reading in those seven minutes. Okay. Right. Well, what, what, Was it the first vision?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I typed in. Not then. It subsequently became one. But as I said, the two things that I looked at were probably of the more recent things in my life that had caused me to sort of think, hang on, that doesn't seem right. And that was the Mike Wallace interview. with Gordon B. Hinckley. And I thought, and I refreshed my memory. We did teach that. And as far as I'm aware, right up to the moment that I stopped going out to church, I taught that. That was a basic fundamental tenet of Mormonism. So I looked that up and sort of reaffirmed to myself that I hadn't sort of dreamt it. And then the whole North American Indians DNA thing stuff where the wording to the Book of Mormon, which was initially are the principal ancestors of the American Indians. And that had been changed to were among the principal ancestors. And I thought it just doesn't bear any scrutiny. And as a sort of sidebar, another thing that had come up on it was this bit about apostles. And apostles... Now, when I was in the church, there were special witnesses of Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what an apostle was. Now, whether or not, they didn't ever make it explicit, but you and I and everybody else knows, we were implicitly taught that that special witness was they'd seen him. They'd seen the Saviour. That's what a special witness was. They'd seen the Saviour. And now they were not special witnesses of Christ, of Jesus Christ, but they were now special witnesses of the name of Christ. Well, weren't we all? We were all witnesses of the name of Christ. Anybody who professes to be a Christian is a special witness of the name of Christ. That didn't make them too important. It's this idea that we were sold, and we were sold. It didn't matter how anybody says, we were sold this idea, those apostles, They knew because they'd seen him. I mean, I don't know if you agree with that, Jim, but it was never stated, but it was definitely implied. And that's what we grew up with. Was that your experience, Ian? Is that what you thought? Yes. That they'd seen him? Yes. It is mine. What
SPEAKER_03:about yours, Jim? What's your thought on that?
SPEAKER_02:No, that was my experience as well. I remember sitting in a general priesthood session My father was a United States senator at the time, so he got tickets, and he would bring family members to come with him. He would get extra tickets. And we were sitting, and it was my father and my nephew and me. And my nephew said, I wonder how many times they've each seen Jesus Christ. Right. And my father said, once in a lifetime if they're lucky. Right. And I remember looking at my father and just thinking, really? Yeah. Talking to him. And my nephew just couldn't accept it. He said, oh, no, no, no, no. It's much more than that. Right. And so I've had long conversations with people about this particular issue. And I think you're absolutely right. The implication is very strong that Yet when you talk to them one-on-one, when you actually start talking to general authorities and leaders, they will admit that they encounter God in the same way that we do. Yes,
SPEAKER_01:Jim, you're right,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. They're very open about that. I mean, I've had that conversation with...
SPEAKER_01:Well, Jim, they're open now because they've had the feet held to the fire, but they weren't open then.
SPEAKER_02:No, what I'm saying is they are open when you talk to them one-on-one as people. They are not open when they speak in conference. The implication is still, the one that I just, that keeps coming up, when I wrote my reply to the CES letter, it was right after Quentin L. Cook, an apostle, had gotten up and said, I know his voice, I know his face. Right. And the implication was absolutely, well, you know his voice and you know his face because you've heard him and you've seen him. Yes. But he won't say that because it probably isn't true. I mean, there are apostles that have talked about having those kinds of unique experiences, but they are rare experiences. And they are, I mean, I haven't heard sort of an explicit, I saw the Savior statement. No, no. In my entire life. I've heard plenty of implications. But I have never heard an apostle stand up and say, I saw Jesus Christ. No. The closest I can remember is David B. Haight. gave a talk near the end of his life where he admitted in his talk that he had never seen Jesus and that he had this sort of vision where he saw Jesus. And I remember thinking when I heard that, going, oh, well, I had assumed that you had seen Jesus prior to that. So I absolutely, I don't think that your reaction is in any way surprising. And it's also, I think all all too common. I think there are a lot of members who have this sort of deified version of what they think the apostles are and what they experience. And their faith comes crashing down when they realize that these apostles are men and that they encounter God the same way we do. I've sort of reconciled that in my own personal faith. So when you say these kind of things to me, I don't go, oh gosh, I mean, it comes down, I think, to some degree to expectation, to the idea of, I don't expect the prophet or the apostles to be demigods. And I don't expect them to have encountered God in a way different from me. So it doesn't really shake my faith when I recognize that. But I absolutely... can see how it shakes the faith of many who, you are absolutely right, have that implication given to them. And even if the apostles themselves aren't explicit, I've taught seminary. I taught seminary for three years. Lower down in the church, if you're in a seminary class, I can promise you all of my children in seminary class have had seminary teachers And church leaders tell them, yes, of course, the apostles see Jesus. Yes, of course. After every general conference, I remember hearing a seminary teacher talk about how every general conference, the president of the church heads off to the Holy of Holies because he has an interview with the Savior where he reports on how successful conference was. And I just don't believe that anymore. And I don't think... You have to believe that, but I absolutely see where that teaching and that implication is still very prevalent
SPEAKER_01:in the church today. Would you agree, Jim, that I think that one of the problems, I think, for the church is that most members, the vast majority of members, don't know what the revelationary process is.
SPEAKER_00:Because,
SPEAKER_01:again, when you've had these, you know, you come across these things throughout church history where the president of the church, the prophet, he's changed direction or he's introduced something else or something's come up. Now, my idea, and I don't know how you two guys were, I thought that when you were the prophet, you received revelation thus. The Lord would tell you directly, what he wants. Now that's how I saw the revelation he proposed.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, he would show up and he would speak to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So, and, and, and the reality is that that's not how it works. Um, that, you know, it's basically, it's almost like a committee it's discussed. And then, you know, we, we, the, the decide how to go for, because I could never understand, for example, let's take blacks and the priesthood. Um, I could never understand how that worked, where suddenly black people are now able to receive the priesthood. And I remember thinking to myself at the time, why hadn't God told a prophet before? How come this has just come for this guy? But there are lots of sort of instances like that where polygamy, I mean, polygamy is another obvious biggie, where, you know, either polygamy was right or it was wrong. And so the fact that, you know, man didn't recognize it shouldn't have made any difference. And so I think that when you start to get into these areas, you assume, or at least I assumed as a member, that God was appearing to these guys and telling them, this is what I want. Thus saith me. This is what I want to happen now. And obviously that isn't the way that is. I read a bit more in depth on that particular revelation. And the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were quite split. Some of them thought that it should remain as it were. Some of them, principally President Kimball, thought that it should change and they had to wait while all the apostles came back they reconvened and some of them you know sort of spoke out against it and president kimball had the final word and said no this is what's happening and i think that because and when you understand now once you've got that information you can think well i can all right i can see that that that where that might be a justification because if god was actually speaking to these guys then I'm going to have to believe that, you know, he keeps changing his mind. And he doesn't, you know, he doesn't actually... A recent one is the Mormon thing. The whole, you know, we don't... I'm a Mormon. So you've got a prophet in Thomas S. Monson. And from 2010 to 2018... I mean, he ran, it was a program, you know, I'm a Mormon. And don't know how many millions were spent on advertising, promoting and things like this, putting media out and things. And then the next guy comes in and he says, actually, we're going to scrap that. And now you don't refer to yourself as Mormons. You refer to yourself as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I suppose if I would go back to my original, you know, personal revelation from God, I'm just amazed that God didn't sort of tap one of them on the shoulder and say, you know, actually, this is it. Not change direction totally halfway through or however many years through. So I think once you get an insight into how the church says it does receive revelation, then that... I suppose then opens up an avenue for an apologist. Because if God was talking to these people as a man speaketh to another man, then he's choosing to leave a lot of stuff out when he's talking to some prophets.
SPEAKER_03:Lance, we're coming to the end of our podcast today. Again, I just can't thank you enough for taking the time to meet with us. I've got a couple of questions and probably Jim may have a final question as well or a final thought. This might be, it's an interesting question, I think. With your dedication, devotion that you describe in your life, you know, from joining the church, serving a mission, just almost immediately after being in the church for a year and leadership, commitment and devotion, and you're bearing of your testimony, and you made reference at the beginning about the Holy Ghost, what do you attribute that spiritual experience to be? The church is, you've lived a lie, you've been deceived, yet you bore testimony of the church from spiritual experience that you had. So how do you attribute that experience, or what do you attribute it to, And the other question I have is, where are you now with your faith? So there's two questions there.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, I undoubtedly bore my testimony thousands and thousands of times because at that time I sincerely believed that it was true. At the end of that first session with the missionaries, they left me a copy of the Book of Mormon and they identified Moroni's promise. And I did exactly what they'd asked me to do. I went up to my room, I opened that up, I knelt down, prayed, and I felt like I'd received a revelation. I felt like, you know, this warm feeling that you get is... And I thought that was a revelation, that it was true. Now, so I didn't... I feel a bit of a fraud now sometimes when I talk to people who will ask that very question, you know, why, you know, what changed. I think what changed was I came to realise that there are lots of things that can give me that feeling, Ian. You know, I've had that feeling on stage when I've sang a wonderful aria and people stand up and clap. I had that feeling I suspect every Muslim you'll talk to will say the same thing a lot of Christians will say the same thing I felt that it was true but it's feelings I suppose well they were enough for me for a long time but the evidence just definitely outstrips all that Because there's so much evidence now. When you and I were younger in the church, Ian, there was a lot of... It seemed like some Christian denominations, Pentecostals particularly, they didn't have any other doctrine other than sort of anti-Mormon stuff. And some of it was patently ridiculous and made up. And so they had no real credibility. But I think it's only when you go back as a church member and look at church history. Their own history condemns them in a lot of ways. Do you remember Paul H. Dunne? Do you remember Paul H. Dunne? Of
SPEAKER_02:course, sure.
SPEAKER_01:I love Paul H. Dunne. First year I was in church. Paul H. Dunne, I had every one of his recordings and everything. And I love the things that he was saying. I do remember thinking, does this guy want a general authority? You know, I think that might be a bit far-fetched, actually, some of this stuff. But he is. I mean, I think the one thing that he said, I remember once when he said he'd gone to, on the beach. And he says, you know, you had to carry a weapon above the head, above your head, because if that weapon got wet, it'd backfire on you and kill you. And I thought, I've been a soldier. And I thought, no, it wouldn't. No, it wouldn't. Just as if that muzzle got wet, that wouldn't be enough to make it, you know, misfire and stuff. It wouldn't be enough. But He was saying it, so I took it in. But I did think a lot about Paul H. Dunne. And I met him. He came to our mission when I was serving. And I'll tell you my first reaction to Paul H. Dunne when I saw him. Whoa, didn't think you looked like that, mate. Because I like the church publicity photographs. He's like, I suppose he'd be in his 40s or something. And he was an old man. You know, he was a... you know, kind of bent over. And he looked to me anyway like an old man. I suppose I look like that now to young people. But he looked like an old man. But then all this came about, and none of it were true. None of his war stories were true. None of his baseball stories were true. Not one. And ironically, it was Boyd K. Packer, his nephew, who had done all this research. But K. Packer's another interesting one. I never liked that one. But Paul H. Dunne, I loved him. And when he fell from grace, it was kind of devastating in a lot of ways. And he once said, I can remember him bearing a testimony, and he said, you know, if ever you doubt young people, know this, there are some of us that know grace. And he left it at that. And again, immediately you think, wow, he's seen him. Polish, don't see him. What was the second part of your question?
SPEAKER_03:Where are you now with your faith?
SPEAKER_01:Where am I now? I'm an atheist. I remember after this experience where I decided the church wasn't true anymore. And I remember the... The church did have a good point in that, you know, really, I think there are only two Christian churches that can have even a remote claim on being the true church. One's the Roman Catholic Church who claim an apostolic succession from Peter to the present day. And the other is the Mormon Church who say there was a need for a restoration because the church had fell into apostasy. And so the church had to be restored. and everything that went along with it, the priesthood and stuff, it had to be restored. And so to me, there were only, and I remember thinking, well, if I don't believe Mormonism still, and I fell out with Catholicism a long time ago, where does that leave me? You know, because I still believed in God. But the more I sort of looked at it and things like that, and I can remember thinking one night, I don't know why it just came to me. And I remember thinking, you know, if there is a God, he's an insecure narcissist. in constant need of reassurance and approbation. I thought, you know, I'm better than that. And all this thing geared around, you know, revering God, praising God in all things, acknowledging God's hand in all things and all that. You know, I think, well, I'm a human being. I don't need that. So I just came to the conclusion that there wasn't a God. There isn't a God. And I'm happy for my mother, who I don't really know very well, but she's a Christian that I think I could like to be. In as much as she believes in God, she believes she's going to see her parents again, she believes she's going to see her brothers and that who've died. She's going to see her husband again. They're going to be reunited. And I'm sure my mother says her prayers on her night. I know she does. She says her prayers on her night. I'm sure she feels good about that. And she thinks that that's it. She's not affiliated to any church. She goes out, you know, typical weddings, baptisms, and funerals, and feels no need to affiliate herself religiously with any particular denomination. But... She believes in God and she thinks that, you know, there's an afterlife. And I think that's a cool way to believe in God in some respects. Mormonism is a very high demand religion. Some religions are more demanding than others, but Mormonism is way up there in the demands that it makes of its members. And I think that, you know, my mother has in many ways the best of all possible worlds because she believes in an afterlife. At least she's going to be reunited with her loved ones. and it doesn't cost you anything. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Jim, as we close here, Lance, Jim, any final thoughts or comments from you?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'm trying to figure out how to frame this because, Lance, your story, you are clearly a man of integrity and of intellectual integrity and Your story breaks my heart to some degree because it's a story that I've heard many times from many people who... And I'm just trying to figure out... Because from my point of view, we've said many times on this podcast, or at least I've said many times on this podcast, and I've written a book that I don't know how to get published on this subject, but I believe... that the false doctrine of prophetic infallibility is at the root of so much disaffection. And it's, I think, the greatest problem in the church today and ever, really, because all of the things that you were taught are things that I was taught, things that Ian was taught. This whole idea that we expect our prophets to be essentially perfect, but not even perfect. It's not even about like they're, because whenever we start talking about it in that way, we start talking about prophetic weakness and people start saying, well, no, prophets aren't perfect. They can forget your birthday. They can do things that are wrong. But I'm talking about not necessarily even infallibility, but inerrancy, the idea that a prophet can never forget preach something that is wrong. The prophet can never... It flies in the face of our core doctrines, our core doctrines of agency. When you start to recognize there are parts of our theology that I think allow for prophetic error in a way that other Christian theologies do not. When we recognize that we came to this earth for the sole purpose of making mistakes and learning from them. And we recognize that on an individual level, but we somehow expect the institution to be different. That the institution is gonna be perfect and they're not gonna make mistakes and they're not gonna do anything wrong, but the individuals in that institution are all imperfect and they're gonna make mistakes. That just doesn't work. I just think the church would be so much healthier And we wouldn't lose the Lance Jacksons so easily in seven minutes, particularly, if we were to not just acknowledge the reality that the church is capable of error, but embrace that reality and say, this is what the church is supposed to be. We are supposed to learn together from our collective mistakes, as well as our individual mistakes. I just think that would allow for so much more so that when you encounter very real problems in church history and doctrine, you would be able to do so in a framework where, well, that's to be expected. Because at no point does Gordon B. Hinckley, when he's sitting in front of Mike Wallace, at no point is his agency extracted from him, and he can still say something that's wrong. I mean, I think Gordon B. Hinckley was probably very uncomfortable with the idea of deification and just so was kind of just trying to play it down. But that doesn't mean that that's not something we believe or something we teach. It just means that Gordon B. Hinckley, when he was sitting in front of Mike Wallace, had a human moment where he was trying very hard not to be embarrassed.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not trying to argue or trying to correct you or trying to say that any of your experiences here are illegitimate. In fact, quite the opposite. I think your experience here is something that many, many people have had and continue to have. And I think that the number of them is actually accelerating. As time goes on, because as the internet makes information more and more available, it becomes easier and easier for people to see the mistakes the church has made over time. And more and more difficult for the church to sweep those under the rug. And it just breaks my heart that we can't, as an institution, correct ourselves in a way that we would be able to hold on to the Lance Jacksons of the world. Because I think the church is immeasurably poorer for not having you as a member. I think you are an outstanding human being. I think your insights are extraordinarily valuable. And it just makes me very, very sad that the church doesn't have a place for you. Because I would love, I'm grateful for this opportunity to have gotten to know you at least to a small degree here. And I just think if the church going forward, we need to find a way not just to acknowledge the errors that we've made and the missteps that we've made, but embrace them, take responsibility for them, because that's what we teach people to do on an individual level. That's what repentance is. And I think that institutionally, we need to mimic what we teach to people individually. Absolutely. I don't know if that's long or too preachy, but I, I mean, and so I just want to say, I'm very, very grateful for you sharing all of these experiences with us. Uh, I am, I'm tremendously impressed, uh, with your life story, both professionally and personally. And I'm grateful that you have spent this time with us to be able to share that with us today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, Jim. And that's, that's very, very gracious of you to say those things. Um, I, um, I, Well, yeah, it is. It's very graceful of you, and I appreciate your words. I think there are two things, and I hope you take this in the spirit in which I'm giving it. The idea that a prophet doesn't always speak as a prophet, and I get that. Sometimes they speak as a man. I think it's cowardly at best to put the onus... on an individual member to decide which is which. I think that's my first point. And I think this idea from Boyk K. Packer, where history is not always useful. I just find that the most incredulous statement I've ever heard in my life of a member, senior member of an institution that proclaims to speak for God here on earth. History is not always useful. It's sinister as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_02:Well, what he said was it wasn't just history. He said some things that are true are not very useful.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, and that's even worse. And that's even worse, Jim. Some things that are true are not always useful. The truth ought to be able to stand on its own merit. And if the truth is uncomfortable, so what? The truth is never anything but useful because it gives us the whole scenario of possibilities, really. But it says, you know, this is the truth. This is the absolute truth. My wife is sat eating her evening meal. That's the truth. And no matter which way I want to spin that or put something, that might not be useful particularly or whatever, but it's true. And to say that, if I was sat here saying, My wife's here smoking a spliff. That would be untrue. The truth is always useful. Sorry, I won't say the truth is useful. It's necessary. If we can't face the truth, if an institution cannot stand up to the scrutiny of truth, then wherein lies data intervention?
SPEAKER_03:Lance, I... I want to thank you so much for taking time to be with us today. I've learned so much from you. I've known you for a long time. You're a man of great integrity and a man who is devoted to truth, to facts, and to be authentic. And I want to thank you for being that person. You continue to be just a wonderful friend and just a remarkable example. I want to thank our listeners for joining us on this episode. I hope you enjoyed that. Many things that Lance talked about, we can learn a lot from. So, Lance, thank you, and also appreciate this time with you. And, of course, a very special thank you to our very own Jim Bennett. And Jim and I will be joining you again soon. our listeners again on next week's podcast, which is another exciting episode that we've got. So on behalf of
SPEAKER_01:all of our listeners... Can I just say thank you very much. for your kind words and for your invitation and Jim it's been a privilege to exchange thoughts and feelings with you so I thank you for that
SPEAKER_02:likewise sir thank you
SPEAKER_03:so
SPEAKER_02:much
SPEAKER_03:Lance thank you and Jim thank you thank you Ian
SPEAKER_02:thank you