Missions, Metrics, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves

Ian and Jim sit down for a one-on-one conversation to examine recent remarks by Elder Ronald A. Rasband about missionary work, church growth, and the “hastening” of the Lord’s work.

Taking a close look at six “false narratives” Elder Rasband says need debunking, Jim and Ian explore what church growth really means—and how it’s measured. They discuss missionary numbers, retention rates, regional differences, and why broad claims often lack the hard data needed to evaluate them honestly.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:10

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and there is only one other person with me here today, and he is the mighty Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir? I am doing really well, Jim. How are you, sir? Well, I'm all right. It's been a while since it's been just the two of us. We've done some live streams with just the two of us lately, but we always end up answering all of the comments. And uh so this is the first time in a little while where it's just you and me. I hope we don't bore everybody.

SPEAKER_01: 0:45

I've I've missed that. You know, we've had loads of amazing guests. You know, we have a live program now. Uh, and I've um, you know, I was telling my family that I've missed this like one-to-one thing with Jim Bennett because we kind of cover some amazing ground and and uh it it's it's a different experience, it's a very different positive experience for me. So I it's it's a real uh honor to be with you uh uh to to have this conversation with you today. Uh certainly on the topics that we'll be discussing. Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14

Likewise, sir. So uh you had seen an article uh written by Elder Rasband that uh attracted your attention that you wanted to talk about. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:28

Absolutely. So Elder Rasband uh uh attended the MTC recently. So this is an article that I came across on Deseret News, and the date is January 29th, which is today uh 3.23 p.m. So it's kind of hot off the press. And Elder Rasband makes some very interesting claims, and those claims are worth reviewing and having a conversation on. Um, he said here in the headline, uh, he said it's a remarkable time to serve. This is uh speaking to around about 900 new missionaries in the MTC. He said we are only scratching the surface of what the Lord has in store for us as he prepares the world for his second coming, uh, says uh Apostle to Training Missionaries. Do you remember on your mission and before your mission, uh, same the same messages that we were uh out there, you know, this is what 35 years ago, and that we were uh our work uh would be to usher in the second coming, and we were there to warn people, etc. And that we were going to see the church spread across the earth. It's the same message, this message has not changed over the last 35 or 40 years or so. So, yeah, so during the meeting, um uh he said uh that the church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world. And the article goes on to say that nearly now, nearly two centuries later, members of the church are seeing this happen. The number of missionaries serving, uh number of missions serving, people choosing baptizing temples being all increasing. And and just before we get into the article here, we've had you and I have had these conversations, we've had uh input feedback from people who've attended our Inside Out Like programme that happens every Tuesday night at 7 pm Mountain Time. Uh, we've had our guests on, and there's been uh times where we have discussed, including with Greg Prince, uh, and in particular, Greg Prince's Roadmap for Improving Mormonism speaks about church growth and some of the barriers to church growth. And there's the the message that I've uh picked up and learned from that, Jen, you know, if we kind of string all those um conversations together, is that the church in many ways is in decline. People's interest in religion generally seems to be diminishing. Uh if the data's uh some of the data's pleasure. Uh young people are leaving the church uh on record numbers. Uh again, that's what I've heard. You can chime in on that. Uh, we've heard that people under in a certain demographic, perhaps under 40 or 45, have issues with the church. Uh the retention is difficult in in many parts of the world. Scott, the church in Scotland seems to be uh diminishing faster than ever. Europe, and I I only uh know this uh based on my family relationships and friend relationships in the UK and in Europe, who tell me that you know over the last few years there's less and less people physically turning the church. That is seems to be the case certainly in the UK and certainly uh across Europe. Um Elder Rasman goes on to say, do we not all feel wonder and awe in our hearts? Uh he's uh he was with his wife uh at the uh event and basically he talks about um uh how the church is uh is growing and and uh and prospering. And so uh have you just before we get into some of the details there, what's your take, Jim, on uh growth of the church? Uh you know, you've you you uh you you're tracking some of this, you know, people speak to you. Uh you've spoken about this uh passionately. Are you uh uh seeing growth in where you are in the church? Do you uh see growth beyond the region area that you're living in? What's your take on if the church is growing or not?

SPEAKER_02: 5:40

Well, I don't have any hard numbers. I don't know how a lot of people who do, or if any people do really. Um but um uh from what I am seeing, uh at least in North America, well, so okay, so this is all anecdotal. This is, I mean, from my personal experience, uh, I see shrinkage. I see a fewer and fewer young people coming to church. Uh I my my daughter reported to me from the USC Institute uh just how small the University of Southern California Institute has become. And there's a new institute director there. And she said that the institute director is a woman, and said that she was the only person who had applied for that job. And when I was at the University of Southern California, the institute was jammed with people, and there were people lining up essentially to get that job, to work at the Institute. You know, Paul Dunn used to work at the USC Institute, uh interestingly enough. But it's it's just so I look at the area I grew up in, which is Southern California, and there is no question that the church has shrunk precipitously. In Southern California, there are uh there used to be several stakes, multiple stakes within the Los Angeles city limits. Now there is precisely one. And, you know, so that doesn't necessarily mean that the church as a whole is shrinking. And certainly the numbers that we see out of Africa, that we see out of the developing world, demonstrate that throughout the world, and particularly in Africa, the church is growing at a rather sizable clip. And so the question then becomes for church leaders, uh, are do we just sort of focus all of our energy on where the church is growing and just ignore the fact that we're seeing this kind of attrition in the United States? Now, we had your friend on, his name escapes me. He was a mission president in Belgium. President Darrell Watson, and I was thinking exactly the same thing when you were speaking. Go ahead. Yeah, and and I brought that up with him because all the evidence seems to suggest that Europe is shrinking. And he said that's nonsense, uh, but the people they're baptizing aren't Europeans. The people they're baptizing are immigrants and uh people from outside of uh, you know, that have that have come into these countries but are not traditionally Belgian or French or Italian in all of these different countries. I mean, we we can see shrinkage in Scotland because we were we both served in the Scotland-Edinburgh mission, and it's now the Scotland-Ireland mission. They've combined both missions. You don't do that if you've got enough activity for missionaries in Scotland alone. And so so from my experience, I I don't know that Elder Rasband is being dishonest, uh, but I think the implication that the church is growing everywhere equally, and I don't know if he says that or not, but uh if that's the implication, then I think that is somewhat disingenuous and not true.

SPEAKER_01: 9:21

We'll get into some of his his details because he's got five, six specific items, points that he is what he claims he's debunked. And by the way, before I get into these, because each one are fascinating actually, um I'm on the Edinburgh uh stake Facebook page, as I am uh, I think there's there's a my my ward uh in England, um, and I'm also part of another ward, and they post their activities, their social activities, and the whole makeup of those activities, as you can see, people attending them, does support what President Darrell Watson and what you've just said. That's uh the the demographics have changed significantly if I'm going on those um you know those uh images on the Facebook pages there from those events, and the whole makeup looks completely different to when you and I were serving in in Scotland. So that seems to be consistent with what President Darrell has said. You've got uh a huge influx of immigrants that uh arrived and and have travelled over many, many years, uh that continue to move into uh uh Europe and the UK, certainly, and we're now seeing those individuals very clearly, uh very visibly make up uh these congregations in the UK, certainly, and uh certainly in Scotland. So just going back to the article here, and I'm really keen to get your um uh thoughts and uh and uh blunt opinions on this in on these specific items. Uh Elder Asmond said, we should all thank Heavenly Father that we get to have a front row seat for the fulfillment of ancient and modern-day prophecy. Uh, he's just been called as the chair of the missionary executive council, so he's in a very senior uh position there. Uh he says, realizing that God is currently doing a marvellous work and wonder throughout the world, and that you are all part, about to begin to be part of that work uh that builds your faith and trust in him. Again, he's speaking of the dishes. He then goes on to debunk uh or tries to debunk some false narratives. And he his opening comment before he gets into the details is this to illustrate the Lord's hastening of his work, and by the way, that's what President Oak's training was when we were called and set apart into Sheikh Presidency. The main focus was, you know, now we have the church established, we've got very clear, you know, uh plan of salvation, it's all all the infrastructure is there. The goal now, President Oak said to us as a new state president, is to hasten the work. You've got the foundations, now make it go faster. We kind of bought into that. Uh Elder Rasmund uh counted six false narratives from those who cannot see or acknowledge what is happening. So if you push back at this, or I do, it's because we cannot see or acknowledge what is happening. We're gonna take that at face value. False narrative number one the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ than previous generations. Contrary to that narrative, more missionaries, he says, are serving Jesus Christ now than have in many years. Your generation, uh, he continues, is not as faithful. No, you have as much faith in Jesus Christ as any previous generation. So, Jim, Jim Bennett, is uh this false narrative, uh this narrative number one, is it false? Which is the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ than previous generations.

SPEAKER_02: 12:48

Well, there's a bit of sleight of hand there, isn't there? Because he's not talking about the rising generation. There are more people in the rising generation than had that have faith in Jesus Christ than in previous generations. What he's saying is that the generation uh is just as faithful, if not more so, than previous generations, but that allows for you to sort of shift the numbers because if this generation is smaller than previous generations, it can still sort of per capita, if you will, have as much or more faith than previous generations. And I think that's probably true, because I think that people who stay faithful, particularly young people who are still active and still faithful, even as we're seeing this kind of attrition in the church as a whole, uh, it the people who stay are very committed and very devoted to the church and to the cause. So I think that uh there's a little bit of, I call it sleight of hand, maybe you might call it moving the goalposts a little bit, because he's not making a numerical claim here. He's making a substantive claim about the nature of the faith of the rising generation. And I think, taken on those terms, that it's a clear accurate statement.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

Yeah, I I concur with that. And by the way, i i i i looked at the article, and when you start talking about growth and progress, certainly in the business world, what do people expect you to back up your statements? They expect at least two things facts and numbers. So, you know, um when you're talking about growth, how do you quantify that? Well, you quantify it numerically. You know, we're we're here, we're growing here, and this is the rated growth. And there appears to be no reference to that, um, any metrics, uh, any numbers in the article, and that's worrying. That kind of uh jumps out as a big red flag. The other second point I want to make is that is that when you're talking about measuring faith, that's a phenomenological uh concept as opposed to positivistic. How do you measure faith? How do you quantify faith? Well, that's very difficult to do um numerically. It's difficult to do, but that's this statement, and and it's hard to contest uh his claim that uh you know people have less faith, they probably have more, it's hard to know. So it's a very safe statement. There's no no uh numerical quantification there, you can't measure from one unit to another, and so it's difficult to um challenge that based on uh that information. I mean, is he talking about the rising generation? Is that young LDS Mormons? I I suspect it is, he's talking about that. Is he talking about just pe young people in general, uh, you know, in the public across America or the world? It's unclear. So it's a very strategic, safe messaging. You can't challenge it or test it. It you know, it could say, hey, I've heard all these personal accounts from these um sister ministries, which is course at the end, by the way, of the article, and he could say, hey, look, you can see there's the proof uh faith in human people is growing. So that's a difficult one, I think, to um to kind of uh push back on because it's you know, how do you quantify that? Uh false narrative two the church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases. And I can't wait to get your opinion on this. He says that the last 12 months saw the largest number of convert baptisms in any 12-month period in this dispensation, said Elder Asburn. It's a remarkable time to serve. He said he added the future is bright, elders and sisters, and you are at the center of it. So again, no numbers, you know, we can't compare numbers, there's no units, there's no numbers. But here's the claim the church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02: 17:04

Uh well, I I I don't know that that one can hold up. Uh well, it depends. Again, uh the there's there's so my father used to say about Mitch McConnell that he was able to make statements that didn't have any handles on them. In other words, he he could make a statement that you couldn't really grab at and yank out and say, well, wait a minute, I had to take issue with this, that you would always slide off whenever you tried to grab the statement. And this strikes me as a similar sort of statement because you want to grab onto it and know, now wait a minute, interest is declining in organized religion, and the church interest in the church is declining with regard to organized religion. And yet he's kind of framing this when you when you talk about the the vast number of convert baptisms. That is, I think, a legitimate statistic. But again, it's it's fed by massive growth in the developing world, not in the United States and not in Europe, and not in anywhere else. You know, I had one of my best friends growing up served his mission in Japan. And I don't hear anything about the church in Japan anymore, and makes me think the church has all but vanished in Japan. And, you know, we we you know he is essentially taking those numbers and extrapolating outward and saying the entirety of the church is reflected in these numbers. And I don't think that if he were to say that that explicitly, that that would be a statement he could defend. But he's making a statement that doesn't have any handles on it that I think he can defend. As you say, it's one of these things that isn't really verifiable. It isn't there, there isn't any way to go after it and say, now, wait a minute, let's look at the numbers specifically, because you said this specific thing that we can track down and measure, uh, he's not offering any kind of metric that we can do that with. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: 19:27

It makes sense. Uh again, it it's in uh sharp contrast to um the meetings I attend where leaders of businesses actually show you the numbers, right? You know, they've got the facts, they do research, because if they don't if they make a statement in business or whatever on a project or whatever, and and it's very it can't be verified, you've lost confidence immediately. I mean, you're not gonna stay in that position, right? So it it's again, it's another soft uh way of making, you know, making a statement that um there's no numbers to check it, right? I think you could it's church is experiencing growth in like in Europe from those demographics that we talked about, and Africa, you know, we hear that. Um, you know, pockets of growth, but it's just um specific areas, and um again, there's no numbers, so it's hard to quantify and hard to measure. False narrative number three. He says he says this baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. Well, my goodness, that's such a safe statement. I've just said that, haven't I? I've just said it's growing in Africa and growing in parts of Europe and growing in. But he's saying that's false. Well, he's saying it, false narrative. Baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. He's saying that's false narrative number three. He says this the number of God's children being baptized is increasing in every region of the world. I'm not misquoting that here. Elder Rasmund said he added that the region with the highest percentage of growth in baptism uh in 2025 was Europe. No matter where a missionary is called, you can have faith that the Lord is hastening his work in your area. He encouraged his miracles, are filling the whole. That is verifiably false. Uh that last one for sure. So his false narrative, trying to debunt the false narrative number three, he says this baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. What does Jim Bennett be?

SPEAKER_02: 21:27

I I don't think I don't know how he could defend that statement. Just because that has always been the case. Is he trying to say that the rate of growth in Africa is exactly the same as the rate of growth in Scotland? Because that would be a verifiably false statement to make.

SPEAKER_01: 21:49

He says the number of God's children being baptized is, quote, increasing in every region of the world.

SPEAKER_02: 22:00

Well, I you know, I don't again, we don't have access to the numbers. So I can't, you know, if I were dragged into a court of law, I can't disprove that because they don't release those numbers. Uh they don't release, as far as I know, maybe they do. Do they release numbers of baptisms by region? Yes. Just release total baptisms.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

Right. So when you're doing these bishop reports and state present reports, so the state president meets with the bishops every three months, right? It's the it's the bishop for all the bishops, right? And the bishops have to do reports. Uh there's all serious reports. I understand that the reports are uh lengthened somewhat. And the state present has to issue reports to you know the area authority, 70. So all those hard numbers exist. You know, combat baptisms, child of record, uh a number of people holding uh temple recommends, etc. There's a metric that uh the church uh measures, and it's all online now, by the way, so you put all the information and kind of upload it, obviously. And uh so the church has got the numbers. It it does, right? And you know the percentage of growth by convert new convert baptisms, by stake, by ward, uh in every region in every other church. It's just incredibly organized when it comes to the the numbers internally. So I it's just I I'm I'm shocked that Elder Rasbund, who's now head of the NTC, is saying uh the number of God's children baptized is increasing in every region of the world. It's just isn't. It's just not. Unless they know something we don't. I don't know. Without the numbers, it's hard to say. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 23:43

Yeah, I I would I would disagree with that. We taught we've talked about uh when we were talking about Elder Holland's legacy. If you recall, one of the things that Elder Holland is famous for saying is that the biggest problem that the church faces is growth. And he talked about specifically we're creating Mos I Menos um three to five stakes every week with something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 24:12

If you say that, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:14

And uh, and there are many people that sort of went through that and said, no, that isn't true.

SPEAKER_01: 24:21

So um, you know, I I mean I again we don't know. We don't know. We need it, we need the numbers. Okay, false narrative number four. We've got uh you know, three more to go. So uh it said here new converts are not being retained. So he's saying he's trying to debunk this false narrative, uh, which uh claims uh new converts are not being back not being retained. He says here, new members actively participate after baptism in ways that are as high, if not higher, than any previous year. I mean, just think about that. So who wrote this? It's uh I mean if he wrote this is incredibly smart, but I guess someone wrote wrote I mean, I don't want to be disrespectful to him, he's a very smart guy. He probably wrote this himself, if not someone helped him. But you can't you can't challenge that. Just just look at that. New members actively participate after baptism, okay, in ways that are as high, if not higher, than any previous yeah. I mean, how do you, again, phenological, how do you measure something like that? You know, they actively participate in a way that they, you know, high in a uh higher way than they do before.

SPEAKER_02: 25:28

Yeah. Well, the only time I have ever seen um verifiable statistics was what, almost 40 years ago in Scotland, and they came from President Banks. I don't rem know if you remember this zone conference, but I it sticks out in my mind because it was so astonishing uh to see the numbers that he was talking about. And he he essentially gave the percentage of retention numbers. Do you remember that? Um so he said, look, um he asked rhetorically, well not rhetorically, but but he asked saying, okay, which country in the world has the highest retention rate? And they defined retention rate by somebody who was still attending the church within a year of their baptism. And the highest country, and this is in 1987, this was one of the earliest zone conferences, right after I'd come out. This was in Livingston. And he said, the highest country is uh the United States, and their retention rate is 24%. And I remember just kind of my eyes bugging out, thinking, only 24%, and that's the highest? And then he said, What country do you think has the lowest retention rate? And again, nobody knew. And he said, Japan. Japan's retention rate in 1987 was 2%, which is, you know, minuscule, which is one of the reasons why I brought Japan up earlier, because I've always thought about that and thinking they're only retaining 2% of their converts. I can't imagine that the church is growing in any significant way. And he said, Scotland is right in the middle. Scotland is at 12%. And he says, so our goal here is to increase the retention rate. And that is the only time any church leader has shared with me any kind of church-wide statistics. I don't know where President Banks got those statistics, but the fact that he was, that he had access to them demonstrates that they exist and that they are shared with a certain group of people, mission presidents. President Banks wasn't a general authority yet, but he became a general authority not long after. But mission presidents apparently do have access to data like this. I would think that President Watson probably has access to data like this. And if the data were really supportive of the idea that church growth is just going like gangbusters, and that retention is just going like gangbusters, we would see those statistics. We see the statistics that make the church look good. And the statistic, the raw statistic of convert baptisms, given the amount of growth we're seeing in the developing world, that number makes the church look good. But when you say, okay, uh, Elder Rasband, we have more convert baptisms than we've ever had, well, that's great. And then you tell me, but it that it's equal in every different mission field? Can I see those numbers, please? The fact that we can't see those numbers suggests that they don't make the church look nearly as good as the raw larger number.

SPEAKER_01: 29:14

Yeah. I I think you've absolutely nailed it. You know, that when you make these kind of statements uh in front of 900 missionaries and you can't back it up with numbers, that's a big red flag. And and people like you and I, many others see that immediately. You know, we're not stupid. That's a problem. And to your point, when the numbers are real and the real growth, we we will see those numbers. Um I'm just looking at the what appears to be the quote from Elder Holland that you made reference to earlier, and I think this is it. Elder Holland, in a regional meeting a while back, um, he said this. He said, the church is growing in such a rate that it is creating double digits, uh new state creation every week of our lives. End quote. He says here that we are in the midst of incredible growth, staggering growth in the church. It's the single biggest problem we have. It's the best problem we could have, but the biggest. We are reeling under the implications of growth we have in this church. We could go first and we created 15 stakes. We're doing that um every week, more or less. It might not be 15. The week before it was 12. I remember him saying that, Jane. Do you remember that? Sometimes it's eight. Um or whatever, and it will be a little uneven. But the point is we're talking double-digit stakes every week, every week of our lives. Uh I was extraordinary. I just because it didn't seem to uh ring true with you know what I'm seeing in Europe and um and uh the UK. Anyway, so uh and and Elder Asmund just goes on to qualify what he means by participating, you know, in the church, which obviously they do, you know, by attending sacred meeting, performing vicarious temple work, eventually making temple covenants, hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the saviour. So that's interesting, his first reference to hundreds of thousands. That's what he said. Hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the saviour. Now that's the first time we've seen any reference to uh you know numbers, you know, thousands. But he's talking about hundreds of thousands. Now, technically, clinically, what is hundreds of thousands numerically, would you say, in your mind? Um well 100,000 and one? Is that fair?

SPEAKER_02: 31:36

Well, 100,000 and one wouldn't be hundred thousands. If it's hundred thousands plural, I think if you're being honest, it would happen to at least two hundred thousand.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. So uh, you know, I mean, is it correct that hundreds of thousands are acting in faith? You know, the it says yeah, after baptism. So that means hundreds of thousands are joining. And if they are well, let's look at the numbers. Anyway, uh, it goes on. There's two more. Uh false narrative number five, and this is interesting. Uh I'd love to get your view on this. More missionaries come on early than ever before. He said that's a false narrative. It says this. It says this an overwhelming majority of missionaries are completing their service to the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes teaching missionaries who, due to physical or emotional health, transfer to a service missionary assignment to finish their mission. Elder Rasmond goes on to say, he also expressed rather gratitude for missionaries who complete their missions. He said, remember, the call from our prophet is to serve two years for our elders and 18 months uh for our sisters. Thank you for willingness to serve. But going back to the uh his efforts to try to uh bunk, debunk um this false narrative, he says here, it says here, more missionaries come home early than ever before. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02: 33:01

Okay, can you see the slide a hand in that one? Yep. Because he says, all right, I'm gonna debunk this narrative, and the way he debunks it is not saying giving us the kind of numbers that would specifically debunk it. If, you know, a hundred missionaries a year, I mean, and these numbers have no grounding in reality, they're just easy numbers to they're nice round numbers to be able to wrap our brains around for purposes of the discussion. But if a hundred missionaries um came home early last year, and this year 95 missionaries came home early, then that would debunk the idea that more missionaries are coming home early than ever before, even if it's a slight number. Uh you know, that would debunk that specific claim. But the counterclaim that Elder Rasband offers is not uh a measurable number. What he says is that the overwhelming number of missionaries finish their service, which is a different metric. It's not the same metric. Uh the when when we were missionaries in, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the stigma attached to going home early was unbelievably massive.

SPEAKER_01: 34:30

Am I right on that? 100%. I I just on that. I my first two weeks, I hated it. It was that I you know, I'd left my girlfriend, I'd left my great job, um, my music, my life, I'd I'd uh I was English. The Scots don't some of the Scots don't like English. The first two weeks was absolutely I thought I felt I'd made the biggest mistake in my life, and I've talked about this on a previous podcast. But notwithstanding all that, and it was absolute hell, freezing cold, rejection, no one interested. I'm like, I'm wasting my time. It was rejection after rejection after rejection, 10, you know, 11 hours a day in the rain. It was brutal. However, the thing that kept me out in those first few weeks, there's no way, not a chance in hell that I was gonna go back home early. I said to my companion, and and I I meant this, I'd rather die. And I didn't grow up in the church, right? You grew up in the church, so immense pressure on uh missionaries who have been gone through the entire cultural experience from your primary, right, and been taught to go on a full-time mission, and that's the biggest goal that you can do, uh, you know, other than getting married. But anyway, um, there's no way I was gonna go back and and and be a failure. I I would have died first. So that what you said is absolutely true. Yeah, that's the last thing you do, right? You don't what you don't go home. The pressure was intense.

SPEAKER_02: 36:07

Well, so so I um was longer than two weeks. I I I look back on it now, and I look back at my whole life, and it this isn't just a spiritual issue. I have dealt with medical depression for the vast majority of my life uh and continue to deal with it to some degree. I think I've got it under control, I've got it manageable. And by the when I was serving as a missionary, um that really wasn't uh, you know, even if I had somehow said or gotten some kind of diagnosis, there wasn't any sort of tools available to help a missionary struggling with depression. So uh that said, I had fantasies of escaping my mission. And I knew, for instance, that President Banks was holding my passport, and so I didn't, I couldn't leave the country uh legally, and uh rather than confront President Banks, uh I had these wild fantasies, and they were just fantasies, but uh, of you know, escaping by foot and then going through Russia and crossing over to Alaska on a land bridge. I mean, it's ridiculous. And so, of course, I was never ever anywhere close to doing anything like that. But my point is those ridiculous, absurd fantasies of escaping my mission, and the idea was that I would probably just go to New York and try to make it as an actor and uh assume a new name and a new identity and never see my family again, and just be this entirely new person. Uh, that was preferable to me than the shame and the disgrace of going home early.

unknown: 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:10

Of saying, I've got to go home and I'm gonna be a missionary that went home early. I mean, I just could not conceive of just what what shame that was. And I didn't know in, I didn't know a single missionary growing up who came home early. Not one. Not a single one. I don't remember any time in my ward or in my stake, uh, even whispers of somebody coming home early. It was just not something you did. It was not acceptable. And fade out, fade in, uh, well, this is this is 15 years ago. This is when I was serving in a bishopric. Um, roughly half of the missionaries that we set out when I was at a bishopric came home early. And they came and talked to us about it. Some of them came home for health reasons, uh, but by health reasons, they were talking about mental health. They were talking about depression. Those who came home for health reasons, I mean, there were some others who came home for other medical reasons and got, including the bishop's son, he had a he had a medical uh issue. He came home from his mission, uh, went and got surgery, and then went back to his mission. So he wasn't really coming home early. But there were people who came home early because they were depressed. And I would have, and and those who came home early for depression were given honorable releases. They were, oh, you've you've come home for health reasons, and so that's no problem, and you have an honorable release. Uh, others came home for non-honorable releases. Uh, you know, they came home because they were unresolved. Um I remember one missionary, we sent him out, and then it was about three weeks later, we drove, I drove into the church parking lot and saw this missionary getting out of his car. And I this was a very insensitive thing to say, but I looked at him and I went, uh, well, what are you doing here? He'd come home because he had had some uh issues, uh, it wasn't a health problem, and he'd come home early. Uh, but so I don't know. I to give Elder Rasband a benefit of the doubt here, uh, maybe he's measuring this against uh much more recent statistics. Uh so, for instance, everything I'm telling you comes from 15 years ago. Uh, and I I have not seen the same kind of attrition uh recently, but I also, frankly, don't see as many young men going out on missions. Uh a lot more, a lot, it's a lot more acceptable, really, for young men to say, no, no, thanks. And it's not that they are they even go inactive or they leave the church. They just say, no, I don't, I don't want to go on a mission. And again, that was that was a I I had seen that growing up, uh, but I sort of looked down my nose at it. I thought, oh, well, there's something wrong. You're on, you're not righteous. Uh, you know, of all the judgmentalism, I just look back at myself and I I want to go back in time and kick myself in the head. It's like, geez, Jim, you really did not have the kind of empathy and compassion you ought to have had when you were growing up. But that's an entirely other story. So if you're comparing the numbers from now, from 2026 to say 2011, which is essentially the time frame I'm talking about, uh, if 2011 was the peak of missionaries coming home, then Eldarasband is telling the truth when he says that there are not more missionaries coming home now than ever before. But there are certainly more missionaries coming home than came home during any time that we were growing up, and probably during the time before that as well, because that was not an acceptable thing to do. Now, the other sleight of hand in that statement, uh, and this is something that has happened in my ward, is he talks about people who come home but they fulfill their missionary service in a service mission. There's a missionary in our ward, for instance, that gave his homecoming, but he has been home for over a year because he came home after a year after struggling on his mission, and they reassigned him to a service mission, and he was allowed to live at home. And the service mission, obviously, was not the kind of all-enveloping sort of mission that we experienced. He was living at home. Uh, I think he even had a job. Uh, you know, so he was, he was, you know, he was not serving the same kind of mission that we were not allowed to leave from. But Elder Rasbang can say, well, but he is completing his mission and he's completing his mission service. And so there's kind of an admission there that one of the ways we have stemmed the tide of huge numbers coming home is redefining what a mission is and counting people who come home and serve a service mission. Do you see that in that statement? Is that a is that a fair evaluation of that statement?

SPEAKER_01: 43:57

I do. I do. I as I listen to you, I'm thinking. You know, where is he measuring? What's the date points right that he's measuring? And if he's measuring from time, you know, like earlier when it was more obvious that people coming on early and but it's not happening as much now, and there's different reasons and there's different types of missions, you know, so very um not black and white anymore, it's it's it's quite a um the varied way of of of measuring things. So I think it's uh again, without to i you need to know what you're measuring from in A to B, and you need to know the the the time points, right? The date and time points. And so with the lack of detail, it's hard to know you know what he you know what he means. But I think um, you know, if he's talking about, like you said, a time when there were more people coming home earlier, and there's not that's not happening so much now generally, then yeah, he's he's um probably correct on that. The last narrative, Jim, uh is this one. It's um that he's trying to debunk missionaries are not good enough and can't measure up. He says uh to training missionaries who don't feel good enough right now, Elder Rasbund assured they are in good company. Uh he said many leaders throughout church history felt inadequate to do such important work. He says that here, with all the energy of my soul, I share this truth. You, every one of you, can do this, he said. I testify that the Lord has a work for each of you to do. As you trust in him, he will make more out of you than you could have imagined. It reminds me of one of those, you know, those horoscopes that you read it, right? And it fits every aspect of your life or certain parts of your life at this time. You know, today will be a challenge, and people will come and ask you questions for advice and and you know, I mean, that happens all the time, right? I mean, it's that's the kind of when I read that, that's the kind of general horoscope BS that you know we read. Um I don't read stuff like that, but that um we see in some of these uh these magazines and stuff. And um, you know, misshes are not good enough and can't measure up. Well, I I can guarantee there are there is uh many of those 900 missions that were there, it's in some way at some point haven't felt good enough, right? And felt at some point they can't measure up. Certainly a sizeable percentage. But what do you get from that? When he's making those horoscope general horoscope type statements, say it missions are not good enough and can't measure up. Um, he's saying that's a false, he's trying to debunt that as a false narrative. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02: 46:45

Well, I think that's actually probably the best point he has here. Right. Because that is something that I wish people had said to me when I was a missionary, and I think that's something that every missionary needs to hear. Because every missionary feels inadequate. Every missionary is overwhelmed when they get out into the field. This is something that they've never done before. It's something unlike anything they have done before, and they are tasked with so much responsibility, and these missionaries are 18 years old back in the day. I mean, you were a little older, but back in the day, most missionaries were 19 years old when they went out. And it's the whole thing we've talked about repeatedly on this podcast about this idea of you are enough. And I don't think there's a missionary that goes out into the field that believes they are enough. And I think this is a very helpful message for Elder Rasman to be giving to young missionaries to tell them you are enough. Um, the Lord is pleased with your efforts. The Lord, you know, it so so that that's the one uh debunking here that uh I think is sort of evergreen. I think every missionary needs to hear something like that. And so I am very pleased that Elder Rasband has said that. Uh, but you're right, it's it's not um that there is sort of a horoscopy kind of element to it in that it applies to everyone. But in this case, I think that's a good thing because it does genuinely apply to everyone in a way that everyone I think needs to hear that. Wouldn't it would you have felt better if someone had told you that at the beginning of your mission? I would. Would. Yeah, I I think he's it I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01: 48:43

I think he's it's good that he said that. You know, we we all felt that. I can't believe I got through those two years, frankly. I felt inadequate every day. You know, I wake up in the morning and I'm like, what um how am I gonna get through the day? It was so I I think for me, Jim, it was the the fact that no one was interested. Yeah, the vast majority of people I talked to, chatted with, uh, had conversations with, when even the friendly, and there were many friendly people in Scotland um that just kind of passed the time of day with us, they just weren't interested. And I just thought I'm I'm a complete waste of my time. And then after a while of no success, a day, right? A few hours of you feel like, you know, what are you doing wrong? And and under President Dunn, not President Banks, it was down to a lack of obedience, right? So he'd sit down with us and say, you know, uh uh what the the the one-to-one interviews, and I was living with exactness, right? I really was. And um, you know, we're working on a P-Day, for goodness sake, and you weren't supposed to do that. President Dunn got um stripped down by Calcy AC uh when Carlos found out that President was making the initiatives work on a P-Day. So we went above and beyond. But when I had my interview with President Dunn, the the lack of uh the reason why I wasn't being successful, the reason I wasn't a successful missionary, Elder Wilts, is that you'd probably be doing some things that you shouldn't be doing, i.e., masturbating or or maybe thinking about girls or you know, just something that I wasn't right in my life. And that's and by the way, Elder Elder Wilkes, you you know, by being disobedient, you're having an impact on the entire mission. You have an impact on your companionship, on your companion, on the district, on the zone. It's a team, right? So if I'm letting the um not doing things right, I'm letting the team down. Do you know how that makes you feel? Especially when you're when it's not true. Sure. It's well, yeah, you know. I mean, I think every missionary, you know, who would would um you know would know how they feel on that. I mean, that's that was my experience. So to come out and actually say that you know you are good enough and you're okay, I think it's um a breath of fresh air compared to my experience, Frankfurt. It's completely different. So I I I yeah, there's a there's a point there for you elder husband. So do you remember Elder uh Parsons, I think his name was? I I do, and I'm actually in touch with him recently. Last week we've re reconnected.

SPEAKER_02: 51:09

Oh, uh he was he was so much fun. Uh he was had such a dry sense of humor, and he was an Englishman like yourself. And he at one point was assigned to be a traveling elder, I think was the do you remember that? That they they they created this circumstance where there were these two elders that would just go to all the different zones. I was very jealous because I wanted to do that because I thought it would be a lot of fun to be able to travel like that throughout the whole country. But it was Elder Parsons and Elder Uh Johnston, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 51:44

Elder Johnston, yeah, I remember him.

SPEAKER_02: 51:46

Yeah, but but Elder Parsons, I remember we were talking, and I I've never forgotten this because I refused to accept it when he said this. But um uh we were talking, and I think it was my companion at the time, Elder Rose, I think it was, who said something like, Um, well, uh, we have done everything we can to prepare for you being here, uh, because we don't want to miss out on the blessings that will come uh if we if we live righteously. I'm totally butchering the paraphrase. Well, but it was something along the lines of, we've been extra good, Elder Parsons, uh, so we should have success. And Elder Parsons' response was, and I've never forgotten this, he says, Well, why does that matter? It's not as if the Lord is going to deny the gospel to somebody because a missionary is a waster. And I remember hearing that, and I didn't, I didn't allow myself to believe it. It was, oh no, no, no, of course he will. Of course he will. And not only will he deny uh a missionary success for that, but I will be held accountable. The day of judgment will come, and I will meet this person that I should have shared the gospel to, and that would have accepted the gospel if I were just living better, and the fact that I had slipped up, he will stand to condemn me at the last day. I mean, saying that, verbalizing that, and I think that's one of the first times I've ever verbalized that specific moment, but that just seems so ludicrous to me now. But that's exactly how I thought. That's the amount of guilt, the amount of shame, the amount of self-loathing that fueled my mission is just staggering to me. And I, you know, I look back on my mission. We we had my son Samuel on the podcast, and he had a really difficult mission because he was diagnosed at one point with a condition known as scrupulosity, which is religious obsessive compulsive disorder. And it was fueled by his mission president. You know, there was an incident in the MTC, and I just for anybody who I don't know if they remember this, I don't know if you remember this, uh, but there was an incident in the MTC that I don't want to get into that uh by um by association, my son Samuel was was kind of implicated in it. And because he was living in the same bungalow as the people that were doing all these other things, and so was my his twin brother, who they were both going to different missions in Argentina. And when his twin brother went to Argentina, his mission president said, Oh, you didn't do anything, uh, get to work. When Sam went to Argentina, his mission president said, You know, we've got to really decide whether or not you're worthy to be here and whether or not we should send you home. So you need to study all of these scriptures on repentance and report to me every stinking week and justify you being here. And this kind of destroyed him because my son Samuel is so um scrupulous about doing the right thing. He's a great, great kid, a great, great guy. He's he's in now he's 24. I shouldn't call him a kid, uh almost 25. And he um but he internalized that. And he he was praying something like 20 something times a day, and he was you know just studying the script, and this was during COVID, so they had nothing else to do but study scriptures, and he was maniacally studying these scriptures and making notes, and he was never, ever, ever, ever, ever good enough. And that did so much damage. And when when he came home, it he came home in the midst of COVID, and uh they were both reassigned to different missions, but he he came to us and said, I can't go back out. I can't do this, I can't face this again. And we got him into treatment, and he got to a point where he did actually go back out and he finished his mission. Uh, but you know, this this kind of stuff is stuff that when we were missionaries, you weren't allowed to even talk about this. You weren't even allowed to even consider the possibility that uh it was anything but you you and your problem, that there was any justification for feelings of inadequacy, feelings of guilt, feelings of lousiness, other than the fact that you deserved to feel that way because you were not enough. And so, I mean, if there's anything positive to take from this, I uh uh this talk by Elder Rasband, and I know that you you are taking issue with it to a large degree, and I think justifiably in in much of it. But it if there's any missionary out there that hears Elder Rasband, tell them, you know what, you can do this. You are good enough for this, you don't have to feel inadequate, you don't have to feel guilty, you don't have to feel awful about yourself, uh, then I think it's a a speech that was worth giving, or it's a it's an article that was worth uh writing.

SPEAKER_01: 57:47

Yeah, yeah. That's just uh incredibly valuable what you just shared. And as I listen intently to you, you know, on the mission, I when you and I said missions, it's not changed with missions today. There is a um uh numerical, quantifiable metric that the mission president uses, you know, new convert baptisms, etc. etc. The mission president got this these metrics they have to report on. It's uh typically traditionally being numerical, but I wonder to Elder Asbund's point, if the mission presidents across the board, I suspect this is not the case, not the case and not formal, or probably not in place, but should be. I wonder if the missionaries are being measured in other ways and not just numerically in terms of how many people you know come in come into the church. Because if you're measuring your worth and your value on numerical performance of how many people join, then in tough missions, you know, when you're in a mission and it's people joining like in Africa all the time, well those missions are gonna feel completely different than if they're serving in Scotland, you know, where it's a tough mission, and if you're lucky, one will join in two years, or you know, two if you if it's a miracle, right? And if one stays in the church out of those two, well, my goodness, that's that's a miracle as well. So for if we're attaching self-worth, self-steem, and and guilt, and and how we are valued on a personal level, you know, internalizing it, and we've been told that hey, to be a successful missionary, you need to reach the you know, this number. If that's all that's been measured, then that absolutely is dangerous. And we saw that, you and I saw that in Scotland. You know, when you get to uh the when you've got the zone leader thing and AP, part of the remit in the zone leader calling changes somewhat from the other missionaries, uh, you and you know this, because the zone leader role isn't just uh you know traditional baptizing and knocking on doors, that's a big part of it. But the zone leader is in charge of his missionaries, go look after his missionaries. So I had, and you have to have monthly interviews with the missionaries, and the missionaries in my zone, when I was the uh zone leader, um, especially when I was a senior zone leader, they would open up to me, and the struggles that they were going through was just tragic. And I said, don't worry about the numbers, just do your best. Just be the best and love people. You know, have obviously track obviously the numbers part of it, but just be the best, do service projects, connect with the members, go spend time with the members, and you know, don't be so hung up about measuring uh the numbers. I remember when I had or tried to have that conversation with President Dunn, who you didn't serve on that, you served with uh Banks and uh Josie Field McConkie, I think it was. President Dunn uh measured uh numbers. It was just the numbers he was interested in, it was nothing else. And President Banks was like that to some extent, not as much as uh well that numbers was big with President Banks, but President Banks was more of a very a good people person. Uh he didn't formally measure you know relationships with missionaries you know, in terms of how the mission is being effective in in other ways, um I don't think from memory, but President Dunn did, and he wasn't bothered about he didn't want them to have long dinner appointments. He said you need to be about their tracting and finding people to join the church, and he said within 20 minutes of like a dinner appointment, if the members haven't given you a referral, you need to leave. Uh so it was all about numbers with President Dunn. Him and I didn't uh click, as you could probably tell, and the missionaries I i it it's you know my experience with President Dunning was absolutely brutal, and I felt a complete failure because I wasn't having very you know many uh I wasn't having any success with people joining the church. Um and therefore I felt a complete failure. I think in my entire mission, I think I baptized nine people in two years in Scotland. Uh and I think most of those people fell away.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:24

Uh and you and you kept them and you remember the number, because you're you're told you're not supposed to count them, and yet that's the number that so my number was fourteen. Oh wow, okay. Uh but I I took credit for all these different people. Uh I mean 14 people that I taught. Right. Uh I'm the number of people I physically baptized was I I think that it was two. Um uh maybe it's more than that. Uh and it was three. Uh anyway. I mean, I remember that. Uh I don't think a single one of them is active. I I I I in fact I'm uh pretty much a hundred percent sure that not a single one of them is active.

unknown: 1:03:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:06

Only one of my nine has uh stayed in the church. So if we can measuring Elder Wilt based on that, you know, nine people, two years, um, one still active, uh I'm you know, I failed, right? So I I I look back by the way, I you're braver than I am. You've got much more courage of talking about how you felt on the mission, you're talking about depression. I struggle with stuff like that. I struggle talking about that, but I can tell you here right now, and um I mean this won't surprise you, it might surprise others who will listen to this, but that they labelled me, or some people labeled me as some kind of rock on the mission. You know, not everyone, obviously. I'm not some kind of giant, you know, the spiritual giant by any means, not making such a claim. But I there are people that described me as a rock, you know, because I was you know focused, I was obedient, I did all the right things, said all the right things, but underneath Jim, I was crumbling, if I'm being honest. Um, I was not a rock at all. Uh I was struggling, uh, you know, I had issues before I even went on a mission, self-esteem, self-worth, you know, from my childhood and dealing with all that. And somehow, some way, in a way that I I can't understand or explain or uh work out, I was able to hide all that without going crazy, without going mad, without having a breakdown or some mental health crisis. But there were times um I there were a couple of nights I cried myself to sleep quietly, you know, when my companion was asleep, and I because I felt such a failure, not just as a missionary, but as a human being, because of you know the the past, you know, the background. And wanted so desper desperately to be good at something, just one thing. And I was told, you know, uh Ian, if you go on a mission, um that will be your legacy, that'll be the greatest thing. And the my mission was a legacy, it was successful in many, many ways, and and I there's so many great things that came out of that, but there was still so much that in terms of the numbers, and in in in other ways that I don't want to uh not strong enough or courageous enough like you are to get into it in terms of depression. Um I felt a complete failure on a on a mission. So for Elder Rasmus to to mention that, yeah, I I I think it's good. I think it's really important to remind Mish is that um they are incredibly wonderful people, you know, young these are you young men and women who are extraordinary. I mean, to go on a mission, um I mean it's very different now, Jim, isn't it, compared to when you and I were going out there. All these issues that um you and I came across on the dossier that we've got, hey, and you know, anti Mormon, I'm not worried about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard about that. It's anti-Mormon, etc. And we kind of followed the that dominant narrative. Now with the internet and going online, trying to recruit people online and trying to manage all the digital world. And now you've got AI. Yeah, I wonder I I've got a question for you here, and we kind of wrap it up in a few minutes, but what have you heard about AI and missionary work? Have you heard anything along those lines? Because I'm I'm hearing stuff that the church is using AI online to bring people to the missionaries. So, you know, God someone told me all the weekend that God is behind AI and He has uh inspired mankind to develop this technology, and the church is now using AI, and that doesn't surprise me, to uh accelerate uh, or in Elder Rasmussen's word, haste in the work. What have you heard about AI in the uh context of um the missionary effort, the the current missionary effort, if anything?

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:02

Uh nothing. I I've seen the church's handbook revisions on AI, and I'm sort of mindful of those because I'm kinda embracing AI. I think AI is wonderful, and I've obviously produced all these goofy little videos for this podcast. I'm also uh releasing all of the songs I've written uh because AI gives me an opportunity to be able to create professional sounding recordings of them and to create compelling videos of them. And I can do that all myself, and I've never been able to do that. So I love it, but I am mindful of the fact that a lot of people uh in the church particularly are sort of unnerved by it. And, you know, for our last live stream, I created a video of Boyd K. Packer, and our intro video for our live stream right now is Bruce R. McConkie, and it's all AI. I just you know take a video of them and lip sync uh an AI-produced rep reproduction of their voice. And I did that, I did I did one of those initially uh right after President Oaks became president of the church. And I had Gary, you know, Gary Stevenson, when he introduced President Oaks, called him Dallas H. Oaks. And it was kind of funny. And so I used AI and I showed that snippet, and then I AI's Gary Stevens saying, That's right, I said Dallas H. Oaks. Uh, this is proof that we're not infallible. And I thought that was a very gentle, kind of silly thing. And I got a message from a guy I grew up with in my ward in California, who said, How dare you attack the brethren like that?

unknown: 1:08:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:52

I mean, that that was so offensive. And how, you know, and and so I'm sure there are people, and that's one of the reasons why in this last Boyd K. Packer video, I've had him say, I'm not really Boy K. Packer. I am an AI-generated animation. I I don't want people to think that I'm trying to fool anybody. I'm trying to poke fun in a very gentle kind of way. And I I think the church is very sensitive about that. And and and so I I but I would be very surprised if the church is not using AI for a number of things, and I'd be very surprised if missionaries are not using AI for a number of things. I mean, it's so easy. Uh, missionaries spend a lot of their time following up leads and and different sorts of investigators and sending out emails, and you know, AI is really helpful for that kind of busy work. You know, that an AI, it's like write, write a response to this guy saying we'll see him. I mean, I don't see anything wrong with that, uh, but maybe some other folks do. But uh, I of course the church is using AI. Everybody is going to be using AI. It's just a question of what are the guardrails and what are the boundaries.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:08

Yeah. Um, just uh just on that, this is what I've heard uh recently over the weekend. Uh, two main uh threads of thinking on AI for the church, that the church is using these tools, developing these tools to try to hasten the work to Elder Aspen's point. You know, having these technologies where you can have an avatar and you can creep something and deliver this wonderful message, and you can have all these different conversations going on through AI avatars, having the conversation and having it through AI. So, you know, for example, if you're an avatar right now, I could have a conversation with you, uh, just like I'm having a conversation with a real with the real Jim Bennett, right? It could be Jim Bennett AI avatar and identical similar conversations based on you and your testimony, etc. So I'm hearing um the church look at AI and kind of personalizing AI through these um these technologies. The other side of that um that uh two-edged sword is what I'm hearing is that the church is concerned, that the main narrative, you know, the doctrine, the policies, the you know, the main the guidelines, there are these these uh guide rails that you're talking about, the church is trying to wrestle with how does that you know hastening the work and the need to move forward and use these technologies, how do they keep that within within the bounds, within those parameters, that it's safe and not you know uh leading people in a direction that there's uh information that is true uh but not useful to Elder Packer's uh you know famous uh comments there. So they're the two main uh what I heard at least, there's probably others, but two main uh areas of thinking of concern. How do they use uh this AI technology to advance, accelerate the missionary effort and the work, etc.? That makes sense, you know, developing that. But again, how do they do it within that um that uh well the use the right word, the guardrails, that people are not going off and finding stuff that is either is false or is true but not helpful. So interesting to see where the church is going on that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:19

All right. Well, I think this has been a fascinating discussion. Uh I thank you for for bringing it up. Uh this is not something that was on my radar, and I think it's something that is worth discussing. And I think that the church, you know, the church, I I I used to say that the church was in the middle of a uh a radical realignment of the missionary program without even realizing it. And I think the church is beginning to realize it. And we're seeing missionaries now sort of focusing more on online efforts rather than uh in the kind of tracting waste of time that we did. And the church is making that shift. The church is sort of learning how to do that and is developing the tools to do that effectively, and I think that's entirely appropriate, and I think that's entirely positive, and I think there's much positive to be taken from Elder Rasban's remarks here, but I also think it would be far more positive if we could have the hard conversations, because we're not having hard conversations about the challenges of retention, the challenges of new member baptisms in the developed world, not just the developing world. And I don't think we're doing anybody any favors with the kind of sleight of hand that that we see in these remarks, because I I think they're defensible. I don't think he's you know just out there lying, but I do think that uh there is more uh there are hard conversations that he is avoiding with how he has phrased all of that, if that makes any sense. So uh, but I very much appreciate this discussion. Do you have any final words before we close?

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:12

No, I just really enjoyed having this personal time with you. I've missed it. And I really, I really have, and I just I I always learn so much from you. I'm very grateful for our friendship, our relationship. I'm so grateful that we've created this podcast. Our goal is to help people learn. There's so many things that I get from this. I'm so grateful, and I've I've enjoyed this uh one-to-one time with you for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:35

Likewise, sir, this has been a delight. It's it really has been a lot of fun. So so with that, we uh want to thank everybody who is listening. Uh, we appreciate you listening. We appreciate your participation. Uh we have a very should we announce who our very special guest is coming up this next?

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:52

You must announce it. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:55

Uh how many of you have heard of uh a guy named Jacob Hansen? Uh Jacob Hansen will be joining us in our live stream. I promise you that uh it's going to be a positive discussion, and uh we have welcomed him on. He has uh accepted the invitation, and I think what we will be talking about will in fact be positive. And so I'm kind of looking forward to this. Ian, this is this is gonna be your first time, at least online. You've had several conversations with Jacob offline. Uh, but what do you predict for the Jacob Hansen live stream this Tuesday?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:38

I predict that uh we're gonna experience something that perhaps we haven't experienced before between uh Jim and Jacob because I need help on something. There's a particular area of interest and subject that I need help in, and I'll I can say it right now. I need help to convince 17,000 evangelical Christians who claim or allege that the Mormon church is not Christian. I object to that. I feel very strongly about that. I feel strongly that the church mostly is Christian, that the members are mostly Christian. There's no denying that from my perspective. And uh I want to have this conversation with you and Jacob to help me prepare a response to those allegations, those claims that the church is not Christian because I believe firmly it is and not the church, but where the church is um doing the right things and when it is fundamentally Christian, then I think that's worth defending. And I want to um call upon the great wisdom of you both and the insight and a lively debate, uh conversation to see how you both can help me um uh respond to those allegations. So I think this is uh, you know, we have two remarkable intelligent people, yourself and Jacob coming on here. I have enormous respect for your for you both. I don't know Jacob so well, but I've listened to him. I think he's a very smart guy in in so many ways, and I'm looking forward to this conversation and and and sure we'll cover other topics where there might be some uh difference of views, and that's fine as well. So, yeah, that's that's the you know, one of the main items that we want to talk about is you know, is the Mormon Church a Christian church? And what does Jim Bennett think to that? And what does Jacob Hansen think to that? And I can't wait to get your uh your input on that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:31

All right. I I was gonna just leave them wanting more, but uh you you've outlined the whole the whole thing, and the which is fine. Uh so the tease that I'm going to leave you wanting more is that I said to Ian, and I think this is probably true, uh, in the conversation on Tuesday, I may very well end up being the most apostate person in the discussion. And I will not tell you why, but uh I'll leave that as the sort of tantalizing thing. But you uh you're absolutely right. Everybody thinks that I I just wake up in the middle of the night screaming at Jacob Hansen. Uh Jacob is, in my mind, one of the most effective defenders of the faith when dealing with people outside the faith. I take issue with a lot of the things he's done when he attacks people in the church, and that's where he and I have crossed swords. But you know, he went on Alex O'Connor and held his own with this remarkable atheist scholar in a way that I just think I don't know if there's anybody else in the church who could have done better than he did on that occasion. So so uh please join us on Tuesday. It's gonna be fun, it's gonna be exciting, uh uh, but it's also going to be good natured. If you're if you're coming to see uh Jim Bennett lose his stack at Jacob Hansen, I think you'll probably be disappointed. Anyway, thank you all very much. Uh appreciate this time with all of you, appreciate, of course, this time with you again. And we will look forward next time to uh visiting with you again on the next episode of Inside Out. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jim.