Elders

Ian shares a spontaneous with two young missionaries in a shopping mall — a conversation that quickly moved from small talk to polygamy, race and the priesthood, prophetic fallibility, and moral obedience.

What happens when one missionary says he would follow the prophet “even if it was wrong,” and his companion quietly says he wouldn’t?

Then the discussion turns to the recent calling of Elder Clark G. Gilbert as an apostle — a decision that has sparked both support and backlash. Is this a missed opportunity for broader representation? A signal of retrenchment? A strategic move by President Oaks? What does it mean to sustain a leader you don’t necessarily agree with?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of Insider. I am Ian Wilkes, you know who I am, and I am here as always with my partner in crime, Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim. Hello, Ian. How are you, sir? I am doing well. I'm excited about life. I know we have a lot of uh challenges in the world. And I think, you know, last night we were just having some time as a family watching War of the Worlds movie with Tom Cruise. The fire was on, family was around, all was good with the world, and those moments with family and the friends are just really reminders of what you know life is what you know, what the value is in life, right? You know, we can shut our doors, we can be at our homes. Um, I know a lot of people or some people don't experience this, and that's very sad, but to be able to be with family and at least have some moments of personal time and peace is really, really important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12

Wonderful, yes, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15

So we were feeling comfortable and safe watching War of the Worlds. All right. Aliens taking over the world. Anyway, um, so I am really excited about this episode because I think this is going to be a very different and a very interesting conversation with you. We are so grateful for all of our uh listeners and uh followers, and we hope that you will gain from this conversation as much as we will. So let me uh kick off by introducing uh listeners to this experience. So yesterday, Jim, I was in a place that you don't normally find me. Have a guess where that is. Church. That's one good very good answer. I wasn't there. I don't think you'll ever find me in church, but I was in a shopping mall. And I don't go to shopping malls, but anyway, I had to go because I needed a new laptop. So I went to uh Best Buy, got this laptop, and on the way to uh the uh you know, buy this laptop, I saw two young missionaries sat down on their phones talking, and I was heading that direction, and I decided to decided to stop and introduce myself. I did so politely, and uh I think they were surprised that someone actually was talking to them. And so we sat down together and we had I think one of the most interesting, intriguing conversations I've had in a long time. I think we spent about 40 minutes. I think they wanted to, this is quite unusual, I think. I think they wanted to get rid of me. Uh, usually, you know, on a mission, right? On our missions, you and I served at the Served together Scotland, and uh, we tried our best to get any time we could from anyone, you know that, right? And people were desperate to get rid of us, right? On the doorstep, they're like, hey, we're done now, thank you. Just go, just piss off, we're not interested. And we would go from door to door, like, you know, pleading and praying with all the faith that we could. We had a get a few bit of time, have a conversation with someone, right? Uh, this conversation with the missionaries wasn't the other way or as bad as that necessarily, but I think they were probably um, you know, ready to end the conversation. And I don't say that negatively, it was quite positive. So I had this conversation with them, and we had we talked about all kinds of stuff. They I asked them where they're from, how long they've been on a mission. You had one there who'd been on a mission for eight months, and the other one had, I think, been on the mission uh quite a bit longer. And there were two young kids, young lads, that reminded me of me and you. And I said, What's it like serving a mission? You know, is it is it tough? And he said, Well, yeah, it's pretty tough. I said, How are you dealing with the issues, the questions? Oh, he said, um, he said, we we've got um uh a strategy for that. I said, Well, what's your strategy? And he said, Well, we've got fixed answers to certain questions, okay. I said, I mean, like questions like what? Polygamy, Joe Smith polygamy, polyandry, Book of Mormon, Race in the Priesthood, and Blacks in the Priesthood. And I said, uh, you know, what do you say? You know, how do you deal with those questions? And they said, Well, uh, one of the they said one of the common threads is that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young lived it at a different time. It's a different time back then. And you and I have heard that before. It's quite common. Yeah, yeah. Those decisions, those, you know, were made in a very different time. People thought differently, people felt differently. So, you know, that was one of their responses. They also said that uh the prophets back then um had limited knowledge, and the prophets now have greater knowledge. Uh, I said, okay, that sounds reasonable. Uh, they also said that uh uh over time uh the prophets receive further light and truth. I said, okay. I said, does that mean the church changes? And they said, well, kind of. I said, well, it it does, you know. I mean, that the church does change. Um I mean, you and I have talked about in order for the church to survive, it has to change, right? Uh we didn't I didn't get into that with the missionaries, but they gave me a number of uh uh typical examples of response that they would give to some of those difficult questions. I said, when you get asked a question that you can't answer, what do you do? And and you and I know the answer to that, right? What do you do on your mission, Jim? Uh, if you could answer something, or you didn't know how to respond, or you didn't know what to say or do, what did you do? What was your default? You bear your testimony. You bear your testimony, and that's what they do. So that's not changed. So if they can't, you know, the they that that's their safety net is to bear the testimony. So if they can't answer a question technically or doctrinally or historically, uh, doesn't matter so much. If they bear testimony, that's that's what they do. That's what they are. That's what that's how they answer. I said, what about the more complex, difficult issues and questions that people throw out? They said they go to the mission president and he guides them. Okay. Uh I also said, how much information can you research online? They said, well, that should be quite restricted. Um, there's a new policy in place, or they've got this policy in place that where they can't access a lot of the information on the internet. It's only approved sites. I said, okay. I said, Did you guys get the chance to listen to uh President Oakes' address at the recent uh his first address has been called uh uh as the prophet um that he gave early this week on Tuesday. They said, yes, they're allowed to watch some stuff like that. I said, what do you think about that talk? They said they said it was great. They thought it was incredibly uh inspired. I said, okay. And then we got into some of the uh operations of the mission. Um I asked, by the way, the the the mission that they're serving in is the uh Vancouver uh British Columbia mission. And the church is pretty well established here. Uh and the religious culture here is not the same as the UK. Uh by the way, at this time in the conversation, they'd asked me, you know, where I'm from, what am I doing? Um I didn't disclose that you know I was the former member of the state presidency uh because they were in the same ward that I attended, you know, uh in this town where I'm living right now. You know, after all those initial um that information during that introduction asking me where I'm from and my accent and stuff like that. We then got into a whole bunch of stuff, um, which I'll cover in a moment here. But we also talked about uh how many baptisms in the mission. Uh keeping in mind, North America, as you can uh testify, is a very different religious culture and history and tradition than Scotland. Right? In Scotland, they're steeped in Catholicism, Catholicism, you pronounce that right. Catholicism. Yep, and potterism, and these religious history and culture and traditions stem hundreds, if not you know, over a thousand years in Scotland. And people are in these religions from generation to generation, just like in the Mormon Church. And very difficult to change all of that. Uh in North America, I think people tend to be much more open-minded than uh, in my experience at least, than people are in Scotland, right? And it's much more liberal, much more progressive. But notwithstanding, you know, the the church is um pretty well established uh and it's orthodoxy in British Columbia. But anyway, uh for um uh so and I said how many missionaries in the mission? They said 200 missionaries, 210 missionaries. Have a guess how many baptisms on average they have? For the whole year. Last year. Oh, in the year? Not the whole year. Um it's not Scotland now, it's not Scotland, where we did work nine a month or seven months. 200? 300.

SPEAKER_01: 9:29

300, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 9:31

So it it's a lot less than what I thought for 200 missionaries. You know, churches established, progressive, it's a very different environment and culture than you know than Scotland. It's not steeped in as as that, you know, uh as tradition as history is certainly Scotland. And 200 missionaries, it's um, you know, it's it's a lot less than what I thought. Um, and so we got, I said, how's your experience so far? And they're saying it's it's it's challenging, it's tough. I said, What's the day look like for you? I said, Do you knock on doors? Not allowed to knock on doors. Um, I said, How do you generate inquiries? They said, Well, it's through the Book of Mormon Facebook ads. We get inquiries through Facebook.

SPEAKER_01: 10:12

Oh, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02: 10:14

Yeah, same as my sons when they were missionaries, same as your sons, and they get it through social media and then they have to get permission to go and teach. I said, How's that work out? And they said, Well, it's it's challenging, it's it's it's tough. So, uh, and they do it, you know, the bulk of the time is on social media. I I shared with them my experience of serving a mission and knocking on doors. That physically it was grueling and mentally, but it I said it's not nothing like what you guys do in terms of social media. And Jim, you can uh speak of that being a parent of two sons that served at a time when you know social media's around. You and I didn't have act, the internet didn't exist when you and I were on our missions, right? Never even heard of that word. That's how old we are, we're getting old. So anyway, is the come and then we get got back into some of the doctrinal stuff. And I said, What are some of the um more challenging questions that you get? There's a deli polygamy, polyandry, book of mormon uh related questions, and we got into some of the um, you know, some of the I said, What about the essays? By this time it's 20 minutes into the conversation, and one of the missionaries is um asking me more questions than his companion. He was the younger missionary, the one that had been out the least. And I said, Have you heard about the essays? And they said, uh, one of them said, No, what is that? And then as I asked that, uh I swear I saw this. Uh I I'm pretty sure I know I saw the more senior missionary kick. Um the younger missionary, I could see because it's like the the seating was open, and the younger missionary or newer missionary was the one asking the more questions. I said, Oh, the I said, the essays, um, they're fantastic. They came out in 2013. And he said, Oh, I'd heard about them. I said, you know, it started off with racing the priesthood, and we, you know, I said, we um I said that was great. The church was able to address some of the issues. I said, You have do you have access to that? And they said, well, not not really. So they'd heard about them, but they don't use them uh or maybe have access to them, which is interesting. And access might mean they're not allowed to use them. I I don't think it's access on that one where they can't I think they're probably discouraged from reading them because I think the church, if they could rewrite those essays, there's a question for you. I don't probably talking for too long, Ada, before you come in, but um, if they had the opportunity, Jim, to rewrite those essays, do you think they would?

SPEAKER_01: 12:48

Uh I don't know. Uh I don't know that they would rewrite them. I don't know that they're upset with the content of them as they exist. The question is, would they write them at all? And I don't know the answer to that question either. Right. Uh particularly given uh the kind of retrenchment that we're seeing now.

unknown: 13:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 13:10

So that's a really good point, actually. And so they the missionaries had heard about them and hadn't read them or remembered them either because they weren't allowed or were discouraged or they didn't have access. They probably did have access, probably because they've got access to the church website, it's on there. But I don't think they are documents that they speak from because they open up a whole bunch of questions. You know that, right? Those essays generate many, many difficult questions. And I think for the young missionaries, that's the last thing that they probably want to deal with. Anyway, through the conversation, probably 2025 in the competition, it was clear that one of the younger missions was very intrigued by some of this um information. And uh I said, we we had a big conversation about race in the priesthood, um, and I mentioned the essay there. And I said, um, I said, what you know, what are you hearing about that? You know, what's the you know the pushback on that? And they said that they do get questions on that, um, and they're difficult conversations to have, and they go back to their response being that that's you know, Brigham Young and Joe Smith, that's was a different time. So we talked about that. And then we said, one of the missions said, well, it's quite extraordinary that that uh change in position and policy happened only quite recently, right? And they're talking as young kids, and I said, Well, you know, I'm a lot older than you, and and I joined the church in 82, and the uh restoration of the preacher to blacks and the temple blessings happened four years before I joined. I think at that point, I think they saw me as someone quite ancient. And I said, That, I said, Do you see that as a mistake? And the more senior missionaries said, Well, no, you know, it was um, you know, that's what they felt and thought at the time. But the newer missionaries said, Oh, that no, that was a mistake, there's no question, that was a mistake, right? And you can see that very different um positions and perspectives from two very different, you know, very different uh individuals. And I said, Um, I think that was a mistake, and I think it's good that the church has acknowledged that um, you know, they disavowed that, right? And I said, um, you know, what about some of the other uh issues, uh, you know, like LGBTQ and and um uh and we talk, I mentioned women and the priesthood and and other questions that might come up. And they said, well, they have got a fixed narrative, you know, very prescribed fixed uh lane that they have to teach in. They've got these uh trained responses to the more common questions, uh they've got the uh safety net of testimony, any complex questions they can refer, get back to them because hey, you know, because it's online some of it, they can go back to them and get some kind of response. And they can they can script you and I couldn't do this on the doorstep, right? Or in the in in teaching. We when we got asked a question, we were expected to have an answer. If we didn't, we'd go to the mission present, but we'd have to deliver it verbally, in person, right? They can what's interesting, they can script this, they can write this, which is um something you and I didn't have the benefit of. And so they've got to stay in this lane, they've got to stay in the lane in online. Um, and I said, How's morale? You know, and they said, Oh, it's it's it's good, it's good. I said, Well, it it must be difficult and challenging. Anyway, at that point, this other missionary, younger missionary, was asking me all kinds of questions about um the prophet, and then something interesting came up, a subject near and dear to Jim Bennett, which is fallibility. Fallibility. I said, Do you think the prophet is fallible? And the one machine said, Well, he's a prophet of God, he, you know, and he said, You know what prophets do? I went, Yeah, yeah, I think I think I do. I know what prophets, you know, like seeing revelated kind of stuff. He said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll buy it. Talk about a stone in the heart, I'll come to that in a second. And uh, and he said, Yeah, they, you know, they they they uh they tell you what they think best to the best of the knowledge. And I said, but they and then the other mission said, Well, they're human. Right. I said, they are human. I said, Do you think they make mistakes? And they said, the mission said, Well, not when the speaking is a prophet.

SPEAKER_01: 17:42

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_02: 17:43

Yeah, and the other mission says, Well, I I mean, I I was not intentionally trying to cause any divide with these two. Uh, I really wasn't. At this point, do they know your background at all? Have they fitted up? You're no longer in the church. Of course, yes, sorry, I should have mentioned at the beginning. My my apologies. When we were doing the, you know, the um uh introductions there, the um first part of the conversation, they asked me, you know, I said, Ian, and they asked me within a minute, you know, are you a member? So I used to be. I said, Oh, interesting. And then we got into it and I shared a bit about my background and my moving to Canada, and you know, I I didn't talk about the church history necessarily, moving to Canada, um, and talked about, you know, did you serve the mission? I said, Yeah, I served a mission uh in uh in Scotland. And I kind of shared with them about I think that's how the conversation went into it quite nicely, that I shared my very very different experience with them, you know, compared to theirs. And they had loads of questions about, you know, knocking on doors and stuff like that. And it was it was a completely different environment experience about what what what they're experiencing. So that was the first few minutes. Um, and it was it just we got along. It was it was I think they felt um comfortable for the most part, but as the conversation got into more detail, they didn't I think they could tell that I had a little bit of knowledge of the church, as you know, and and rather maintained some of that knowledge of the church, uh, even though we'd left. They never asked me why I'd left, by the way. No, they'll never not one time in the 40-minute conversation for it, did they ask, you know, why did I leave? And I wonder, Jim, if that was a decision that they'd made or if they would instructed, and I'm being skeptically, maybe. Maybe they were they're advised not to ask why people leave. Maybe that maybe that's me being a little bit too um cynical, or skeptical, cynical, uh, that way they're trained on this stuff. But anyway, as the conversation uh developed, there was uh young missionary had a bunch of questions uh that he wanted you know answers to, and the other missionary was wanting to stay, you know, in in their safe lane. And then we talked about fallibility, and I said, Well, do you think prophets make mistakes? And then one said, Well, not when is a prophet, and they said, Well, yeah, it kind of makes mistakes. I said, like racing the priest of the polygamy, do you think they were mistakes? And I got one different one answer, you know, not really from one missionary, um, but the new missionary, uh, yeah, you know, made mistakes. And I said, That's the thing. I said, you know, we make mistakes. Let's be honest about it. We make mistakes were made. And I think that's when we can be in a more comfortable, safer position when people are asking questions about the church. I said, You're dealing with investigators. When you ask questions where it's clearly about something that where we had made a mistake, we need to own it and say, hey, we got that wrong. Uh, I don't think that um was agreeable with one of the missionaries, whereas the new missionary, um, I think that was music to his ears because it for the for the first time in a while, perhaps, he was having a conversation with someone that probably agreed with him internally. I could tell Jim that this individual, this young missionary, and I felt for him. I called you straight after, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 21:05

Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_02: 21:06

You know, I was I I just when I left, the first person I wanted to speak to was you. It was a minute after I'd left, and I was a bit emotional because I felt for these guys, you know, they could be my sons. You had two sons served a mission. My sons could have served a mission, I'm grateful they didn't, but I felt for them because they're wonderful guys, and I felt a compassion for them, and I felt my heart was breaking for them because there were elements of the conversation that they were struggling with internally, emotionally. And I could tell one of the missions was um really it was like mana from heaven, where somebody was having a conversation with him, addressing his questions in a way that perhaps wasn't. I mean, I don't I don't know for sure, but there were these two young men uh going through. This experience dealing with all of this and trying to get through this experience in the most positive way, um, just like our sons would be, you know, going through. And I felt emotional and sad, and uh felt that they couldn't be themselves, or you know, be true to the truth and be the authentic selves, and how sad that was. Um, because if I'd have known these things and my mission, I can't speak for you. If I didn't know what means for the mission, I would have struggled like hell. You'd have this conflict of not going home early, which we've talked about recently, the the guilt that kept you and I, you know, you were thinking of going across Russia. Uh extraordinary. It's extraordinary. It's just extraordinary, it blows my mind. I said I would die first. I probably meant that, I think. But if I had known these issues now that I know now that are on my mission, I would be ripped apart emotionally, spiritually. Um so we talked about the fallibility and the acknowledged that the prophet is um you know is um human but still you know speaks God. I'll I'll finish on this last point, which is disturbing and worrying. I asked, I said, look, if Oaks reintroduced, and this is where the conversation was going, by the way. So this wasn't something I plucked out of my mind, this wasn't a trickle-loaded question. It's important to share with you that the way the conversation was unfolding was these problems that the church still faces that were made from prophets who are now dead, and those prophets made at the time the right decisions in those circumstances at that historical point in time, and since then we've now progressed and moved on. Yes, we disavow them, and yes, they made mistakes uh as men, not as prophets, and we're now dealing with all that mess. They still maintained that those prophets, as well as today's prophets, were doing the right thing. So, because I asked, did Joseph Smith make the right choice by practicing polygamy? One of the missionaries, no surprises, the more the older one um said yes, the other one was quiet. And I said, What about blacks and the priesthood with Brigham Young? And he said, at that time it was the right choice. And so we don't know why he made that, but God told him to do that. I said, Okay, this is where the conversation's coming to to an end. I said, Uh, if the prophet reintroduced a ban on blacks holding the priesthood, uh, what would you do? And the young missionary said, nope, that that's something that he couldn't support. But the Marsini missionary said, Yes. If that's what the prophet would have me do, then I would have to do that. The missionary said, and I'm gonna try and quote him, said, I said, if the prophet tells you to do something that's wrong morally, ethically, would you do it? He said, Yes. The other missionary said no. And the older missionary, I said, Why would you do that if it's wrong? He said, Because that's what God's commanded, and God's laws are higher than man's laws. And I said, Because you know God has commanded things that have turned out to be wrong, or the prophet's done things that turned out to be wrong. He acknowledged that. I said, So if the prophet again said something that you know was wrong, you would do it, and he said yes. And I was absolutely blown away by that. And what was interesting is that he had these two very different individuals, one who was prepared to do anything and be completely and totally obedient, no matter, no question. Whereas the other one's conscience was so strong, he said he couldn't he couldn't do that. So it was a positive conversation, it was a difficult conversation at points, it was an emotional conversation. We left on very friendly terms, and I said at the end, I said, Look, I really appreciate the conversation. You probably stayed with me a lot longer than that you wanted to, and they said, Um, the other missionary, the newer one, said, No, no, no, that's okay. Um, enjoyed the conversation, and I said, I hope I didn't make you feel income uncomfortable. That wasn't my intent, and they were okay, they were okay with that. So it was a complete random encounter with two fine young men uh who got good hats, and um but it was difficult to um not feel the um you know the sadness, the heartbreak of two young missionaries uh serving a mission in the current climate. And then I called you immediately uh to share it with you, and you were kind enough and patient enough when you listen, and then we agreed that we would share that. So uh what I got from that, Jim, and I communicated this to you, and I'll I'll end here, but I what I got from that experience was the church is in real trouble, not just trouble in terms of growth, retention, policy, history, doctrine, doctrine, which it has got a lot of issues there, right? Almost every aspect of the church is a problem. Not every, but almost every aspect. But now we have all these problems and difficulties and challenges playing out in real life situation in the life of two young missionaries who are trying to, at this stage in the life, with support from the family and friends, serving a mission, trying to navigate all of that. The and so I uh for a church organization, for any organization with a moral conscience, to place two young men, young people, in no situation dealing with all of that is unforgivable. The emotional burden that they have to carry is intense, and no surprise that when they come to the realization that things aren't quite what they you know, there's other facts and truths which the church doesn't want to address, and they come to that realization it's an appointment in the mission, and then having to navigate that and the emotional um intensity and struggles emotionally to keep on a mission and and to to try to figure this out and get home in some peace, right? I'm not surprised some of them um break and have an emotional breakdown and have to go home earlier. I think they reflect some of the missionaries going through that reflect the broken heart of the of the issues that they have to face each day. Anyway, I have taken probably you know more time than uh you've been very patient with me. No, uh I no I don't normally do these long uh monologues, so thank you for your patient.

SPEAKER_01: 29:43

So no, no problem. Yeah, it it's you know, when you say that uh it's unforgivable that the church is putting these young people in this situation, I can understand where you're coming from, yet at the same time, uh aren't you grateful that you were in that situation at one point in your life?

SPEAKER_02: 30:03

I I I am. I think the big it's a great question. The biggest difference, which I've referenced earlier, is I and I I think as I I speak for you as well. I know I do, and many of the mission is there. When we were out there, Jim, on several emissions, right? We believed, right? We were in. We were in. We we we believed every part of it. We didn't question, we might question a little bit, but maybe operations of the mission or mechanics, but uh you and I and and most of the missionaries, we were devoted, obedient, committed, um serving missionaries that um taught what we thought and believed at the time was correct. We trusted our leaders, we trusted the MTC training, we trusted the apostles and the prophets, that what they knew and what they said was absolute hundred percent. I was in a serving in the mission with with absolute certainty that what I was teaching was correct. Uh if I knew what I serving then, and if I knew um what I known out back then, my I I couldn't my whole body, mind, emotions would just tear apart. I would go home. I it would be I would have to reconcile this guilt and this commitment I've made to serving a mission with teaching things that I knew at least in part were not true, and I couldn't do that. So I would not have completed the mission. I would have got sent home because I would be asking questions. And President Dunn, I could tell you right now, I'd be on the train like tomorrow morning with him. No very little compassion. You you you were in or you're out.

SPEAKER_01: 32:06

No done. Yeah. Banks in Banks or Banks did.

SPEAKER_02: 32:09

Yeah, Banks was different. Banks was, you know, we know missionaries that should have been sent home, no names mentioned here, that didn't get sent home, right? Um, and banks uh you know labored uh patiently, kindly, lovingly with these individuals. I think if anyone would get me through, it would be banks would get me through. And banks would address my questions, and I probably would survive with banks, but not with done, right? But yeah, I I I'm I'm built that it I can't how can you teach something that you know to be untrue?

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

Well, um I you can't you can't teach something that you know to be untrue. Now, we weren't teaching something you you know to be untrue, and if I were to be sent on a mission uh and be given the missionary discussions, uh I would likely veer away from the script probably more often than I'd be allowed to. Uh, but uh I mean all of these things all presuppose a really black and white approach to the church, to the gospel. Uh so I and and I don't take that approach anymore. And so I I I bristle at the idea of, okay, I've got to go and just do the party line, but I also bristle at the idea that you would be going out and teaching stuff that is untrue. Because you you've said many times, particularly even after leaving the church, how much inspiration you still draw from the Book of Mormon. Uh, that there are principles that there is anyway. I I don't I don't want to get into an indictment of that, but I think that kind of is a segue into what I think a lot of people are tuning in to hear. They want to hear our reaction to the calling of Clark Gilbert as the newest apostle. Uh and uh I spoke to you uh almost before, I mean, you called me right after your missionary experience. I called you right after I heard Clark Gilbert was the new apostle, and you didn't know a whole lot about Clark Gilbert at the time. Uh have you had an opportunity since then to take a look at some of that?

SPEAKER_02: 34:35

I have. I've seen the church uh news release on that. I've been reading some stuff on Salt Lake Tribune, but I've also been reading some of the comments and actually some of the what looks like very strong backlash and outcry. They're the words I've read on Reddit and other platforms in respect to this decision to call Clark Gilbert and the issue, specific issues, and Clark Gilbert's history with BYU in particular, and Clark Gilbert's alleged contribution to the BYU policies and culture, where some allege that his deliberate actions have made learning and teaching at BYU unsafe. So I've read about him from different perspectives, but I don't know much about this individual. So I defer to your knowledge on this individual.

SPEAKER_01: 35:42

Uh well, you know, I know a lot of people, uh I mean, some of the comments that I was seeing from people were comments like, oh, Jim Bennett's mind is about to explode. And if I I I have had time to sort of think about it and to process it, and I I want to um I want to respond in the form of two stories. That will the first one particularly is going to sound completely unrelated, uh, but it isn't. I'm gonna do what Donald Trump calls the weave. You know, you take these unrelated stories and they all come together. Except for when Donald Trump does it, they don't all come together, but that's another story altogether. Uh a few days ago, the church news put out an article announcing the formation of the first Swahili-speaking ward in the United States in Boise, Idaho. There were a number of African refugees that lived in Boise, and they were struggling to sort of get on their feet, and they ended up organizing a branch, and then it became a ward. And this was the first Swahili-speaking ward in the United States. And this was called to my attention uh because the comments, this was on Twitter, X or whatever you want to call it, and the comments on this article would turn your hair white if your hair wasn't already white like mine. They were atrocious uh and unbelievably racist. One used a variation of the N-word, uh, only the first syllable. So I guess if you take out the second syllable, it's okay to refer to black people that way. As a member of the church. I mean, this is just stunning to me. But it was uh the comments that were racist, vicious, um, these are low IQ, terrible people, they're going to replace us. I mean, just Nazi stuff. I mean, this isn't just uh and those comments outnumbered the positive comments by about 20 to one. Uh and it was just a flood of comments from members of the church just expressing the most vitriolic, vicious, racist sentiments you could possibly imagine. I commented and said, wonderful, so glad to see this. And as of now, my comment has 2.6,000 views. Comments don't get that many views. Comments usually get, if it's a good comment, it gets uh a few hundred views at best. But I think it got so many views because it was one of the very, very few positive comments to all of this. And what it says to me is there is a huge uh probably overrepresented on Twitter because the loudest voices on Twitter are not necessarily statistically representative of the membership of the church. But for that many people to respond to a church article in that way suggests that we still have a massive problem with racism in this church. Just a massive problem with racism. And it's tied, frankly, to politics, whether you want to admit that or not. Uh but you know, Donald Trump just last week posted a video uh with Barack and Michelle Obama as apes in the jungle, which is just grotesquely racist, and yet two-thirds of American Mormons have thrown in with this guy. So we know that this is all part of a rancid stew that is posing, I think, a huge threat to the church long term. If we are the church that breeds racists, if we are the church that encourages racists, if we are the church that uh just turns a blind eye to racists, you know, in the Martin Luther King Chapel, uh Morehouse College, which is where the Tabernacle Choir sang last year when I went there, uh, one of the greatest experiences of my life, just sing in that chapel. Uh, in the Hall of Fame, they have unveiled just recently a picture of Joseph Smith. And there, you know, the church has, particularly under President Nelson, done all kinds of work to build bridges with the African and African American communities, and which are which are two different things, frankly. Uh, but and I think that's going to figure into the discussion as we go down the road here. But uh the church is doing all these things to build bridges here. Our racist past and our racist present are a millstone around our necks that we have to get rid of. And I absolutely thought that this next apostle was going to be a black apostle to do precisely that. Now, all of the people that were commenting in this thread would scream at me, you're just woke, you're just DEI, and you know, again, this ransom mixture of politics with religion. Reality is this church is growing, and the place where it is growing the fastest and the most significantly is black Africa. And what would it mean to a young black Latter-day Saint in Nigeria or Kenya to every general conference see an apostle that looks like them? What would it tell all of these racists who were commenting on the church's website and on the church news that you're commenting about people, uh, you're commenting about people who are who look like an apostle. That these are not, it would be so much harder for these racists to other ize black people if we were to take that opportunity to call a black apostle. And Nemo, our good friend Nemo, was talking. He he he posted, he posted a video, I think, just today or yesterday, talking about how absolutely wrong he was, because he insisted that the amount of time that it was taking to call the new apostle was uh because Elder Calsey was called within days of President Nelson's passing. And it's been over two months since uh President Holland's passing. And so Nemo's theory was well, they're trying to talk all of the racists into accepting a black apostle. And today he said I couldn't have been more wrong. Well, I don't know that he was entirely wrong because I think the amount of time was an indicator of the controversy as to who the new apostle is going to be. Uh, there are a couple of stories of Ezra Taf Benson trying very hard to call his son Reed Benson into the Kormu 12. And if these stories are to be believed, and these are family stories, I heard this from my father and from my uncle Howard, who was the state president in Los Angeles. Uh Dallin Oaks, supposedly. Threatened to resign from the quorum if Reed Benson were called. And there were all kinds of battles over this, and eventually Joseph Worthlum was called to fill that position. Now, I don't have any documentation of that, but uh the one thing I do have some documentation of, and Greg Prince has helped provide this, at one point, Le Grand Richards approached David O'Mackay and said, You need to call your son Lawrence, who was my grandfather, as an apostle. It will be a wonderful thing for your legacy. It will be a wonderful thing. And according to my mother, that was the unanimous recommendation of the twelve, that my grandfather was to be called as an apostle. And David O'May absolutely mixed it, said that's nepotism. I'm not doing that. I'm not going to do that to him. I'm not going to do that to the church. And so my grandfather was never called as an apostle. It seems very likely to me that the calling of Clark Gilbert got pushback. This is the first time in my memory, and maybe you have a different memory of this, but it's the first time in my memory that a genuinely controversial figure has been called as an apostle. Can you think of, am I missing somebody? Was there ever a call of somebody where, like, ooh, this is a guy that's generated a lot of controversy?

SPEAKER_02: 45:33

No, I can't, I can't think of one.

SPEAKER_01: 45:36

I I mean, I remember when when there were three vacancies, and everybody was kind of hoping we'd get a black apostle then under President Monson, and they called Rasband and Renland and Stevenson. Yeah. And so there was a bit of a controversy that, oh, they just called three Utah guys, and we didn't do anything international, and we didn't do anything uh in terms of ethnic diversity. But nobody had a problem with them individually. Nobody was like, oh, how could you call uh, you know, Gary Stevenson as an apostle? He's such a controversial figure. I mean, they weren't. None of these people have have been controversial figures. And it's not it's not a statement of opinion, but rather a statement of fact to note that Clark Gilbert is a man who has generated a great deal of controversy in recent years. That's not me weighing in on whether I like this or not. That's simply a reality that was in the headline of the Salt Lake Tribune. The church has made a controversial choice with Clark Gilbert. And uh as I have thought about it and as I have looked at it, uh, something else occurred to me. So that was all my first story. I said there are going to be two stories, and there were a number of stories there. So I apologize, I'm rambling here too. Second story is my uncle Howard again, state president of Los Angeles, telling me a story about President Benson. Now, as we all know, President Benson, he was a controversial figure. When he was called, he was a controversial figure as a member of the 12. He was very political, very outspoken politically, and we're still sort of paying a price for that today. Uh there are still people that reach back to President Benson's really partisan addresses and justify a lot of bile today by referencing him. But by the time President Benson became president of the church, uh that had all but disappeared. And he very quickly lapsed into dementia and sort of disappeared from the scene. You know, his most famous and influential talk was his talk on pride, which was delivered while we were missionaries, and it was not delivered by him. He uh ostensibly wrote it, but it was President Hinckley who read the talk. He read it on his behalf because President Benson was too ill to read it. Uh prior to President Benson's sort of disappearing from the scene, he stopped speaking in conference. Um, he just he just wasn't up to any of that. Uh but prior to his disappearing from the scene, he had a few uh episodes that showed that he maybe should have disappeared from the scene earlier than he did. And my Uncle Howard was telling me this story of President Benson going to Fullerton College and repeating himself, Fullerton College in Southern California, outside of Los Angeles, repeating himself over and over again, kind of speaking off the cup, and he kept saying, May the Lord bless you and the devil miss you. And he apparently said that over ten times in one address. And Howard just was rolling his eyes and saying, it was just so embarrassing and it was just so awful. And I just, and I said to Howard, Well, it sounds like you don't like this guy. And Howard's answer to me is something I have never forgotten. And he's he he looked at me like I was from Mars, like I had just asked the dumbest question in the world. And he said, Of course I don't like this guy. This is a stake precedent, right? He's talking about the president of the church. Of course I don't like this guy. I didn't covenant to like this guy. I covenanted to sustain this guy. And that has stuck with me ever since, and I have leaned on that in so many different ways. In my lovely unpublished book that I don't know what to do with, one of the chapters is titled Sustain versus Agree. And the general consensus among members of the church is that they are synonyms, and they are not. If you get any thesaurus, there's no thesaurus that's going to pull up agree as a synonym for sustain. And Howard and others have sort of taught me the reality that one of the great challenges of discipleship is respecting and sustaining the authority of someone with whom you disagree. Now, this is not, has not been as big a challenge on a macro level with the church. I mean, there are a number of apostles that I could point to that I could say I don't agree with on a number of different things. But in terms of a day-to-day kind of impact on my life, uh that hasn't had much of a day-to-day impact on my life. What's had a day-to-day impact on my life is having bishops or just direct priesthood leaders that you work with who drive you nuts, who are and who you don't see eye to eye with on anything. Uh that's happened to me more times than it should have. It's it's still relatively rare. Uh, most of my bishops have been wonderful, but some have not. So what do I do? Well, I sustain them, whether I agree with them or not. I respect their authority, I accept who they are, and I accept their responsibility. I don't speak out against them, I don't attack them, but I don't have to agree with them in order to be able to sustain them. And so this is kind of where I landed with Clark Gilbert. Uh I met Clark Gilbert on one occasion. I used to be a writer, an editorial writer for the Deseret News, and I was called into his office for some reason. It was after he'd slashed 42% of the Deseret News' um staff. And I wasn't on staff, I was a contracted writer. I I just got paid piecemeal for what I would write. A freelancer. I was a freelancer, yeah. And uh, but he called me into his office, and and I think I said about three words. I think I told him my name, and I shook his hand, and the rest was Clark Gilbert telling me what a genius Clark Gilbert is. And I just remember leaving the office going, what was that? What just happened? What he didn't call me in to get mad at me. It wasn't a lecture. It was just, here, let me share you my vision and share you why this is all brilliant. And I just remember going, oh, well, I'm kind of glad I don't work here. I wouldn't want to have to do that on a daily basis. I'm glad I'm I'm a freelancer. Uh but Clark Gilbert's tenure at BYU, um, you know, I have a number of friends. I anybody listening to this, if you uh I have a number of friends who either work at BYU, worked at BYU. I had a recent conversation with someone who just recently retired from BYU. Uh, but uh and they're either teachers or they're staff or they're anything. And all of them, to some degree or another, have been impacted by Clark Gilbert and in ways that you know even the most faithful professors uh were like, well, where we the problem we have is we don't know where the line is. You know, we interviewed Sue Bergen. Do you remember that? I do. Used to work for BYU, and she her contract was not renewed. And she was not told why her contract was not renewed. And she went and tried to talk to Clark Gilbert about why her contract was not renewed and couldn't get any answers. And my cousin Peggy wrote an article that talked about Clark Gilbert's black box, that it wasn't just that Clark Gilbert was a hardliner, it was that nobody knew where the lines were. Nobody knew when they were in danger and when they were not. Is it is, you know, uh one friend of mine who has since retired from DYU, uh, after the musket fire speech, and Clark Gilbert's black box was in effect, asked one of his supervisors, um, is it okay, is my silence enough? I mean, he had a really hard time with the musket fire speech, but he recognized that if he were to come out against it, that would be the end of his career. And he asked somebody higher up, is my silence enough? Is it enough that I just don't talk about it? And the higher up didn't know the answer to that. Didn't know, you know, I mean, so so I look at all of these and all of these challenges, and then Clark Gilbert gets called as a member of the Quorum of the 12. And one of my first reactions is uh it's gonna make life a lot easier at BYU because uh Clark Gilbert, Clark Gilbert is a what he calls himself a disruptor. You know, he was he graduated from Harvard Business School. First of all, he's extraordinarily bright, extraordinarily capable, uh, has accomplished a great deal in a short amount of time. It's a little uh unsettling to me to have an apostle who is younger than I am, and I I did, you know, my actuarial tables, and it's very likely he will be president of the church when I die. So that's that's that was just a little unsettling and a little bit unnerving. But uh he prides himself on sort of disrupting things. That's kind of the Harvard Business School model, and that's so when he was the publisher for the Deseret News, he fired 42% of the staff. When he went to BYU, he instituted all of these really disruptive things, and the fact that people were sort of off balance was kind of the point. And he sort of delights in that. And I think it likely that the next commissioner of church education probably won't uh be similarly disruptive, and so this may very well make it easier for people at BYU to know where the lines are. So I think that's kind of a positive that comes from it. Um but uh I looking at it, I I I I also go, okay, this is something that we should have taken from President Oakes' talk. Because President Oakes' talk, he outlined for in some ways for the first time, the myriad of problems that the church is now facing. That even active members are having serious problems with history and doctrine and social issues, as he talks about, and that return missionaries are leaving the church. And you know, these are things that a president of the church does not usually admit from a pulpit. I I thought that President Oakes was being very candid. But then President Oakes offered the solution, which really was no solution at all, which was okay, retrench. Okay, um, don't talk to your friends that aren't believers. Surround yourself with believers, uh, be patient. Just I uh the answer in in President Oakes' mind seems to be retrenchment. And if retrenchment is what he wants, you could have absolutely no greater advocate for retrenchment than now Elder Clark Gilbert, because that's what he does. That's what he did at BYU, and that's what President Oaks wants. That's the approach that he has decided to take. So it this really comes as no surprise. Um, it is, I think, a an extraordinary missed opportunity. You know, in a time when he called Elder Casset, Elder Casse, the elder before him, was Elder Kieran from England, Elder Casse is from France, before him was Elder Suarez from uh Brazil, before him was Elder Gong, who is American, but is also Asian American. And so we were sort of seeing this kind of uh opening up beyond the Wasatch Front, and you could not call a more Wasatch frontie apostle than Clark Gilbert. Clark Gilbert would have been an acceptable choice 50 years ago, 75 years ago. I mean, he's cut out of the same cloth as J. Rubin Clark, as just kind of these hardliners. Uh, and you know, we talked about the passing of President Holland, talked about him as a company man. There is no greater company man in the church than Clark Gilbert. And that's what President Oakes wants. And so the more I have thought about Clark Gilbert's calling, because initially I bristled. I I mean, I again with Uncle Howard, I have coveted to sustain Clark Gilbert, and I will sustain Clark Gilbert. I have not covenanted to like Clark Gilbert, although I am open to the possibility of liking Clark Gilbert. Right now, I'm frankly not there, uh, but I may very well get there. Uh but as I've thought about this, and I've I've uh I realized, look, Clark Gilbert is doing exactly what the president of the church wants him to do. And so if my my problem is not with Clark Gilbert, my problem, if I have one, is with President Oaks. And I recognize, again, as we've talked many, many times, that the church is kind of we're we're in the midst of so many different changes, not just in the church, but in the world at large. And watching the church try to find its footing with all of them means that the church is going to do some things that I love, like creating a Swahili-speaking branch in Idaho, and some things that I don't love, and some things that are going to be frustrating to me. And I'm reminded of the time when I was talking to Bill Evans, the director of governmental relations for the church, who found it maddening when people would just dismiss everything he did because, oh, you're just the government relations arm, you're not uh the president of the church. This didn't come from the prophet. So for everybody to go, oh, well, this is just Clark Gilbert being this wild and dangerous whatever he's being as director of, if Clark Gilbert were stepping out of line, if Dallin Oakes did not want Clark Gilbert to be the disruptor that he has been, then Clark Gilbert would have been removed from that position long, long time ago. And the fact that he has now been elevated to the Quorum of the Twelve demonstrates that Clark Gilbert has done exactly what the church has asked him to do and is required of him to do. And so I I it has it has put me more sort of at peace with the calling of Clark Gilbert because, first of all, I have no issue with him on a kind of this isn't this isn't the Trump administration calling um terrible human beings who are, you know. Clark Gilbert is a is a man who's been faithful to his family, has eight children, and is very accomplished and very bright. And so there there is no nothing about Clark Gilbert's life that disqualifies him from being an apostle. The fact that I don't see eye to eye with a number of the things that he has done is largely irrelevant. And it it uh it just sort of calls my bluff when I say, okay, are you willing to sustain people that you do not agree with? And you know, I sustain President Oaks, and I can tell you a number of times I've disagreed with President Oakes, and I can tell you a number of times that I have been deeply frustrated with things that President Oakes has said, but I don't attack him publicly, and I don't, I mean, that's that's it, you know, this is inside out, and if I want to be in, uh, these are the boundaries, and I recognize where those boundaries are, and those boundaries can sometimes be rather frustrating. But that's the reality of where we are. Uh and the other thing my uncle Howard always used to say with regard to callings that he didn't like is he said, it's not my name over the top of the door. It's the Savior's name, and I let him worry about it. And I think anybody who wants to stay in has to sort of take that approach. Uh the the Lord, um, I the Lord is capable of using all of us in our weaknesses, in our fallibility. And it's you know, it's the Lord's name over the door on this church. And uh if I uh if I'm gonna honor my covenants, I have to recognize that and live up to that. And so that's kind of where I've landed. And so if I sound a little uneasy, I am a little uneasy, but I'm gonna get through this. And I I was texting back and forth. I I I got inundated with messages from people from every walk of life. Uh and uh one that really kind of broke my heart is a childhood friend who has a gay child, and uh and this friend is struggling and very much wants to stay in the church, and very but is seeing so much pain being inflicted on her family by this. And uh they just felt absolutely kicked in the gut by the call of Clark Gilbert because it seemed to be this, but you know, we both go back and forth, but we're gonna get through this. We're we're gonna be okay. And you know and and the other thing, and so again, I'm I've rambled, I rambled longer than you did, Ian. Have you? I'm not sure. Um But the the the other thing from this is is that I still have confidence, you know, when I went through my massive when I when I was teetering on the edge of leaving, and I received that revelation that I have described many times on this podcast, uh, one of the things that I was told was, be patient. It will all work out in the end. Now, I don't know if it's gonna work out the way I want it to work out or how it's gonna work out, but I I have confidence enough in that the hand of the Lord is in this church that even if someone like Clark Gilbert or anybody else were to decide, no, okay, we are going to retrench so hard that we are going to absolutely uh uh we're gonna go back to Like you said with your missionaries, we're gonna pull the priesthood away from black people now. We're gonna become the church as it was in 1887, and we're gonna bring back polygamy. Even if somebody like that wanted to do that, I don't think that's possible anymore. I I really think that uh the horse has left the barn to the point where um where the changes that are coming are going to come in spite of uh anybody who doesn't want them to happen. I just I just see these changes as being somewhat inevitable. And the Lord has asked me to be patient enough to see his hand revealed as these changes come. And I don't know when they're going to come, and I don't even know if they're gonna come in my lifetime. But uh I I'm still confident they will come. All right, so that's my long, lengthy whatever it is. Do you have any? And I know we're over time, but I I would love to hear your response to what I've just said and your response to Clark Gilbert and your thoughts in general on this whole point.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:12

Yes, thank you. And I'll I'll be I'll be brief. Um I I as I listen to you, I hear a kind, thoughtful, respectful, faithful, um uh serving member who is indicative um and an example of somebody who follows Christ, wants to do the right thing, sustains the prophet, but knows that the prophet is not infallible, uh people make mistakes. Uh we we in just in life in general, we work with people we don't like, we work with people that we like. That's in any organization, right? And we work with people to the best that we can, as I think President Hinckley said, is uh you know, this we're all that God has to work with, right? Uh so that said, I I think again, I just to add to that, I think you've been kind, I think you've been patient, I think you've been gracious about um Clark Gilbert. I don't know the individual, but what I did, you remember you asked me right at the beginning, what do I know about this individual? Well, when we chatted on the phone yesterday, I didn't know very much. But I went online and I did some research, and I want to share with you what people are saying, okay? So they're saying that there's another side to uh to Clark Gilbert. Uh I'll quote some of the uh comments online here. Uh people have said about uh Clark Gilbert, he has tirelessly created an environment of fear among both students and faculty by punishing their livelihoods for holding dissenting opinions and tightening the vice of authority across the board. Uh the the appointment by Oaks will only serve to perpetuate strict enforcement of obedient to church practice and policies and adherence to church ideology. Uh others have said that Gilbert seems to be another shining example, shining example of the worst Mormonism has to offer the world. Another have said, but they will parade out his education as evidence that educated people can believe that they should be considered part of the elite. So, and and the list goes on and on in respect to what some have described as the outcry and the backlash to a failed decision and a missed opportunity to be strategic and moral and ethical and representative, and and some have called for or was expecting a black apostle to be called. And these comments online, these conversations have been around for quite some time. Clearly, Oaks took a very different approach, different direction for reasons that we probably don't fully understand. I agree with you that there have been some fierce debate internally. I suspect Ukdorf, uh Patrick Kieran, probably Bedna, other more probably liberal leaning apostles um had their say and push back. I think you're right that this period of two months since is it Elder Holland passed away, two months, that there's been uh intense, fierce discussion debate on this. But the church has opted, I think the church thinks uh they've opted for someone pair of safe hands. But what is that? Is calling someone, you know, if those comments online, if there's any substance in them, and I suspect there is, well this individual is a company man, a yes man, who will do whatever it takes, fear, um other techniques, methods to enforce traditional orthodox uh practices, behaviors, etc. etc. And willing to do that unquestionable and again without question, and do it with complete total obedience, uh that sends a very, very dangerous message to uh even the liberal conservatives, but certainly the liberal people in the church, and I agree with you, I think the church is split across politics. There's no question that the church is highly influenced, regulated, governed, um, and persuaded by the political spectrums, you know, MAGA, you know, some right wing, hardline, um, even uh white supremacists, perhaps, from what I understand, that type of thinking still exists in the church. You and I know people that think um blacks shouldn't have the priesthood. That the black people before they were born chose that, right? There are people who have that mindset in the church, those extreme fundamental thinking that exist in the church. The church is not there, you know, as a whole, but this calling uh from you know, to calling Clark Gilbert is sending a message of retrenchment, backward thinking, again, if the online comments are anything to go by, and there are hundreds of these comments, by the way, Jim. These are not, you know, I picked out a few comments, there are hundreds of comments. But if this individual has got this other side, this dark side to him, and he's 55 years old, uh, that mindset, that thinking, which is set, I think it's gonna be set, is gonna be around for a long time. So the progress that's been made, and the progress that is probably will come from Ukdorf, Bedna, you know, Kern at some point, um, there is a risk of at least two things. The rate of progress slowing down, because yeah, he's not gonna be the prophet for a while, but he's an apostle and he's going to dictate his opinion and position based on you know what we hearing about him, you know, this fixed thinking. Um you you said that he would be a good candidate 75 years ago. Well, that that's worrying when I heard that. That's very, very worrying. So he will influence these conversations and will be a um a force for going back to the way things used to be. And and some of the my worry is that some of the progress that the church is making, albeit slow, frankly, could even be undone. Could undo the good work that some of the church has done to change people's hearts and minds. If he's not challenging these extreme views and mindsets in the church that we see in ugly politics today in MAGA, certain elements of MAGA, um, deeply racist behaviors and activities that we're seeing from a living president of the uh uh of the United States of America, and some of those around him where these comments and awful, racist, outrageous, disgusting racist comments um being published online and then denied, and then you have this element of that in the church. The idea of those people having a stage to take the church back into those dark ages. Those are dark ages, Jim, right? You know, and the church has come a long way. Uh, and I I hope and pray that the qualities of Elder Gilbert um uh uh are more powerful than the dark side of him, if you like, and that he will, you know, we can look to his good qualities, his Christ-like qualities as a force for good to influence and encourage positive and strategic change in the church. I, you know, we we we look to that good side of him. But if that good side doesn't prevail, if the other side that we're hearing about, if that's real and true, then I worry about the church. And the church will become narrow thinking, more racist, less inclusive, less safe. Uh any liberal minding minding um you know individuals uh who've got doubts or questions, you haven't got a chat catty nails, chance, you won't survive. You even talk, you even talked about uh the faculty they're surviving in silence, and they couldn't get an answer on that. You might not even be safe, even if you're silent, even if you hold these opinions privately and you share them, you could be, you could be in danger. Share them privately, you could be in danger, right? So I I I think this is a reading, you know, weighing up what I'm reading online versus your very kind, gracious, and very uh respectful and faithful um uh views and perspectives on Elder Gilbert. There is a a uh uh a very significant other side to that, which I suspect has some truth to it. Um, most likely. There's usually two sides of the coin. And you know, where will this fall with Elder Gilbert? Um, we need to hold out for the prospect of him being yes, you know, hold out hope like we do so many times that you know he might change his mind on things, and um, and and hold out for hope for these individuals in the apostleship who can do so much change, perhaps quicker, and commit the church in the future to behaving and and acting in a certain way and changing things, where it becomes impossible for someone like Gilbert, um you know, that dark side prevails, to to undo that. So, notwithstanding the two sides there, there's still hope that the church, and we're inside out, the podcast is inside out. You're on the inside, you're faithful, you're committed. Uh, you know, President Oaks has said, by the way, and you know this, that uh it's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true. Uh that's a very difficult line to walk, right? I mean, you've um spoken respectfully, you've not criticized him, but uh, if you don't agree with someone, that's the thing. What's that line between sustaining uh somebody who's doing something wrong? It's that conversation with the missionary yesterday who would sustain the prophet regardless, even if the prophet broke the law, he would sustain the prophet because that's what God tells him to do, no matter ethics or morals or whether it's right or wrong. Some people will uh uh uh uh follow the prophet without question, without any doubt. And you've got you know a sizable percentage of active, faithful members that would do that, uh, no matter no matter what um uh people say. So I am seeing two very different sides to this individual, a very dark, worrying, dangerous, uh threatening individual that has implemented um some very, very uh dangerous uh strict policies, uh, which is instilling fear in some, uh allegedly. And the other side of you know uh what you're saying, you know, that there is a um, you know, he's got qualities and attributes, etc., and uh we should um expect and hope for that side to prevail. So we'll see. But I I think we can agree that this is a missed opportunity to make the church more representative across the world. And I think we can agree that it would be a good thing one day for the prophet to call a black apostle. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:51

Oh, I absolutely agree. No, I I I absolutely agree, and I yeah, you know the reality is we're going to get several new apostles in the next few years. Well, we're gonna get at least two new apostles relatively quickly. I'm this this sounds really morbid and terrible, but uh both President Oakes and President Iring particularly um are not in good health. They simply are not in good health. They're men in their mid-90s, and you know, men in their mid-90s that are not in good health don't tend to be around for a long time. And that that also, I think, sort of figures into um President Oakes' thinking here and calling Elder Gilbert, uh, because I think he was looking for somebody who uh would keep sort of his flame alive after he was gone. Uh and I think that uh he couldn't, if that's what he wanted to do, I don't know that he could have found a better person to fill that role than Clark Gilbert. I guess I'm supposed to now call him Clark G. Gilbert. I've gotten into this habit of calling general authorities by their first and last names, as if they were people or something. The whole middle initial thing is really ridiculous. It's always always kind of has been. But anyway, uh, but I I really think this is President Oaks uh kind of sensing the short time that he has, and to some degree, sensing, I mean it's clear again, we've talked about this over and over again. It is clear that President Oaks knows what the problems are, and President Oaks can see what changes are on the horizon. And I think retrenchment is almost always uh a fear-based response. It's fear. It's not that uh things aren't going to change, it's that things are changing and I need to make sure that they don't. And I think that was the thinking kind of behind the decision. And I keep coming back to uh something I've said many, many times, which is whenever you whenever you tell me something can never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever change. And the more passionate you are in trying to tell me that, the weaker and the more fear-based you sound to me. Because if things something is never going to change and you had confidence that it's never going to change, you don't need to constantly reassure yourself and reassure others that it's not going to change. It is a sign of weakness, not strength, when you do that. And so I and I have confidence, I for whatever reason, I retain my confidence that the Lord was not lying to me when he said, be patient, it will all work out in the end. I think this church has a grand and glorious future, and I think that it's going to uh enter into that future, uh making the changes necessary to be able to bless the lives of all of God's children. And it's going to do that in spite of all of us, not necessarily because of all of us. And so if somebody enters into the equation that I don't agree with and that has an approach that I don't like, that is no impediment to the Lord's purposes ultimately being fulfilled. So that's where I am.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:41

I think I think that's very fair. We are way over, uh, so we'll we'll wrap it up here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:47

Well, I I just feel better. So thank you for letting me rant a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:51

Oh, that was good. I I always learn from you. I listen, I learn, and I uh I know that our listeners uh feel the same way, you know, when they they listen. And it's okay to disagree with us. Uh we know that. We don't we don't uh know we we accept uh accept um you know not everybody's going to like us and that's okay. We accept that not everybody's going to agree with us, that's okay. But we try to do things kindly, thoughtful, with respect. And we, you know, that's the kind of conversations that we're trying to have here on Inside Out. Jim, as always, it's been an absolute honor to uh to be able to spend this time with you, Cher and be able to open up and share our thoughts and feelings on uh whole these really important things that are impacting the church. Um, any uh final thought from you before we close?

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:35

No, thank you very much for your wisdom and insight. I always learn from you as well. Uh I think that these perspectives are necessary. I think these conversations are necessary, even if they're hard sometimes. Just very quickly, this just brought to mind. I was walking out of the tabernacle last night, uh going heading to my car to home to head home. And I walked back past the guy who was probably a little older than I was, he wasn't in the choir, and he goes, Jim Bennett, love your podcast. And I said, Well, thank you. Do I know you? Do we know each other? Nope, we don't. And and that was it. And uh, so I was really, really grateful to hear that. Uh and so I I I I don't think I I couldn't do this without you, Ian. Uh, your perspective, I think, is so invaluable to this. And I think when people listen to us, uh, they may not like what we have to say, but I think they know that uh we are authentic in what we're saying.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:40

We are, and I'm grateful for uh for your words there. You know, we are inside out, uh, but also uh equally importantly, our listeners are inside out, right? You know, we we're all part of the inside out uh conversation. Uh respectful, kind, thoughtful, uplifting, constructive, critical, yes, uh, healthy conversations that people want to have. Like this missionary was wanting to have the conversation yesterday. And I could feel some relief on his face. He was able to talk to somebody who was giving him, you know, honest answers and talking about stuff that he probably couldn't talk to his companion about, right? You know, having that safe, healthy uh environment where we can talk about our feelings and thoughts and our concerns and our worries and our successes and our failures and and the things that affect us emotionally, and um, you know, just have that um I listen to myself so such a private person, but I see I can't believe I share some of the stuff that I have about my life to be honest, but I see strength and vulnerability. Strength, you know, there are people out there that when you're vulnerable, uh there's enough people that are kind and thoughtful. Yeah, you're gonna get criticism and and um and you know ridicule and condemnation. We you know, we get that. But we are authentic, we are real. These conversations that we're having need to be had. The church is not having them, not like this. Wouldn't it be great to have a leader on the Inside Out podcast and have a conversation like this, right? And talk uh in a mature way about hey, we got this right. Oh, that's fantastic. Look at that, look at the results of that. Hey, we got this wrong. Uh, we're learning from it. We need to do better. That that's worth gold, right? And we're trying to try to have that experience here on Inside Out. So uh with that in mind, I want to again thank you so much, Jim, as always, uh, for being a uh Inside Out wouldn't exist without you. So I want to thank you for that. Uh and I also want to thank our uh listeners, our followers. Um, we we are with you, we are equal with you. Um do we have all the answers? Yes, we probably do. That was that was a joke. Maybe. Who knows? Who knows? But anyway, um, we're the only true uh podcast upon the face of the earth. Yes. Say that with a bit of tongue-in-cheek. But we love you, uh, we respect you out there, all your different opinions and views um that we uh might agree with or disagree with, etc. We we understand um the importance of these these conversations. Thank you for uh being with us. I hope you enjoyed this conversation, and uh until this time, next time, whenever that will be, when we have a plan this audio, we uh we extend our love and appreciation to you. Jim, thank you as always, and again for all of our listeners.

unknown: 1:28:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:40

Thank you, listeners, thank you, Ian.