Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 6 Episode 3 - Public Service CX v Corporate CX with Gunjan Allen

In this episode of the Customer Experience Superheroes podcast series we catch up with Gunjan Allen, a recognised positive force on the world of customer experience. With a background in corporate and public sector improving the experience for customers and employees, Gunjan is well placed to offer her advice on the difference between these areas. 

In conversation with host Christopher Brooks, global CX consultant and mentor, Gunjan discusses the criteria of successful leaders in CX, and the pair share personal examples where they've seen the impact of poor management on employees confidence.

Alongside her endeavours in customer centricity, Gunjan is a director for Women in Technlogy in Australia. Gunjan explains the importance of putting a spot light on this topic generally, but never more so now with a digital divide happening. 

Clientship CX
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Welcome to another episode of Client Ships Customer Experience Superheroes. I'm Christopher Brooks and I'll be your host. In this podcast series, we bring you the talents, the techniques, the tools, and the tips for CX leaders. We help you understand what you need to get ahead and how to make the most of it in today's world of customer experience. In this episode, we're joined by the incredible Gunjan Allen. Gunjan is a sort of force in the world of customer experience, an absolute fabulous contributor to the community with many causes just supporting, as well as specific understanding of the very important area of public service customer experience. We join Gunjan in discussion on this and many other topics. So here we are. We are with Gunchen Allen. Hello, Gunchen. How are you? Hi, Christopher. Really good. How are you? Yeah, I'm fine, thank you. And I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. We actually bumped into each other yesterday when you were you were chairing uh a global um debate on customer centricity. So it feels like we're talking a lot at the moment, but uh we are on the other side of the world. So uh hopefully um the technology will hold up for us. And we've got quite a number of topics I want to talk to you about. This particular podcast is about finding those kind of customer experience superpowers. I know that you're involved in a number of things that are kind of help to bring to light some of those superpowers, but before we kick off, just in case some of our audience aren't aware of you, would you mind just giving kind of a whistle stop introduction to you and how you arrived in the world of customer experience, please?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Um, you know, I always tell everyone my uh career pathway hasn't been linear at all. It's like a squiggly little squiggly lines, actually. I come from marketing, uh marketing background, um, and I've uh headed marketing functions and marketing departments in the private sector, and then I got a gig in the Department of Transport here in one of the state departments in Queensland. I was leading their CX project, their customer experience project, which involved a very large-scale journey mapping exercise for all of the different transport modes that they operate. And then that kind of led me to get another opportunity or an assignment in the health department, one of the state government divisions here as well in Queensland. So it's kind of been an evolution from marketing into CX. And I think you know they're both quite connected, actually, very connected, because they both really thrive on understanding customer and behavior. It felt like a natural evolution for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Were those environments where the customer was already considered a sort of a priority, or was there some work to be done in raising the value of the customer?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, you know, great point. Both I've worked now in the private sector and I've worked in the public sector, and I really think customer centricity depends on how involved the execs are, the executive team is, and that sets the culture. So actually, there is no, you know, there is no difference in that regard, whether you're in the private sector or the public sector. I've had to fight quite hard to put the customer in the room, even some of the private sectors that I've worked in, you know, I've had to push very hard with the board for certain companies. And in the public sector, I've been lucky enough to work for some very progressive departments that have already been on a journey of customer centricity. And I think that's the other thing. It really depends on how long organizations have been on this journey around customer centricity because it doesn't happen overnight. If you join an organization and they are in year one of you know of being customer first, then I can assure you it is going to be an uphill battle. So it really depends upon maturity of the organization.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

And that's that's a very good point. I remember doing a piece of work with a recruitment agency, and one of the things we identified is that actually you talk about going on a journey. Quite often the people who you need to start the customer transformation need to be resilient, need to be good at opening doors. They're not necessarily the same people you need to complete the journey or to mature the journey where it gets to actually developing advanced and brand differentiated experiences. So, would you say that's fair, or do you think a leader in customer experience can go all the way through the journey?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I think it's teamwork. So customer experience doesn't happen in silos, it doesn't happen in the marketing department, it doesn't just happen in the sales department. It needs to be a cross-functional team of CX champions. So you can have a leader, you can have a leader leading it, but you still need champions to come along on that journey. And those champions need to be multifunctional, cross-functional. That's when an organization will realize the true value of being customer-centric. And it needs to also be very much a part of PHR function, people and culture, you know, because it needs to your hiring practices and need to ensure that the people that you're hiring actually have the relevant skill sets to drive that customer centricity at an operational level. So, you know, you've got to have leaders at that strategic level and you need to have that cross-functionality. And then at an operational level, you've got to have champions who help drive that vision.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Really interesting point you make there about recruitment. We spoke to Nate Brown a while ago, and he talks about the concept of a house with a gate and people sitting on the fence. And he said, you know, you absolutely can develop people, but there comes a point where you need to close the gate to the wrong sorts of people. You need to make sure you're bringing in the sorts of people that value, respect, and admire your customer ambitions as opposed to keep thinking that you can convert them into it. I mean, would you would you say that's fair?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Oh, 100%, Christopher. You know, I'm a big believer in soft skills. I don't even know why we call them soft skills, to be honest. Like, you know, we say soft skills and hard skills. They're important skills, you know, they're really important skills to have being empathetic, that curiosity, um, which drives innovation. I think we need to be more childlike. We need to employ people who are more childlike, who ask the why, who are not afraid to challenge the status quo, you know, and that's a very that those are really hard skills to teach. You either are or you aren't. That's just a fact of life. You can teach someone to use Outlook or to be a graphic designer, you can teach them those tools, but you can't change the core personality of a person or who they are. And I'm not saying it's a wrong thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying, you know, you really need to be cognizant of what are your values, like what are the values of your organization, and then what sort of people do you want to bring in who will align to your values? And that's not a right or a wrong thing. It's you know, it gives an we're talking about experience, it's a great employee experience for someone to be part of something that they believe in. So it works both ways.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Here's a question for you because it's just prompted something. I remember when I was quite young being out, we were running a project for a client and the sales manager was with me, and I'd noticed that the work that we were doing was giving them a very good short-term return, but actually their customers wouldn't come back the following year. And we were out at DNA just talking about it, and I kind of questioned that why are we doing this? Because I think actually you'd get more value if you were to do the right thing by the customer in the short term, and they would come back and get repeat business. And I never forget that the person kicking me under the table saying, Shush, don't ask that sort of question. I fast forward a few years, and when I first sat up with my business partner, I think one of the first meetings we went to, we're in the room, and and I asked a couple of questions, and he leant across and he said, You're gonna get us thrown out in a minute. And when afterwards we won the business, we were told it was because we'd made them really think. The questions have made them think in a way they hadn't done before. I think I'm pretty resilient, but if that happens enough times, I stop asking those questions, I stop asking the why, and I just conform. So if that's happening, that must be happening to other people as well. I mean, how do you nurture that ability to feel you can speak without you know being kicked under the table or you know, yanked at yanked by your business partner? And how do you do that? Because I'm sure there's great questions out there to be asked, but they just stay in people's heads.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Oh wow, that is uh that's a really deep question. And you know, I can spend hours talking about it because it it comes down to psychological safety, you know, it it comes down to again, it comes down to your leaders, it comes down to empathetic leaders who provide that psychological safety for staff or for people. I I hate, I don't like the terminology staff, for people to um to ask the why respectfully. You know, it has to be mutually respectful. You know, there are lots of ways that you can nurture that kind of uh culture if that's something that you want to really build. Part of that is ensuring that there is zero tolerance on bullying and harassment as an example. And now we're going to the cultural drivers that actually lead to that customer sensitivity. It's to do with making sure that again coming back to your hiring practices, is that you hire leaders who who are empathetic, don't use the word I, use the word we and and have all those soft skills which are so important and so lacking. But yeah, uh Christopher, it's it's a it's a great question, you know, and um I think psychological safety is something that isn't talked about a lot, but is needed for organizations that want to be innovative, they want their people to be curious and they want to innovate, but then at the same time, um, you see certainly practices which in organizations which do the reverse.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I think, as you say, it's deep and it's probably a real commitment that has to come across the organization. Yeah, I would hope with greater inclusivity, better consideration to wellbeing, these are these are things that will become more natural within an organization. And maybe employees will probe the employer at the interview and kind of say, can I understand? Is this a place where I can express my thoughts without fear of retribution if they are, to your point, you know, respectfully put forward? Otherwise, how do you get the best out of your people? I think I think what you've tapped into there is one of those key CX superpowers of leaders, uh CX leaders today is that kind of you know to say about the need to be empathetic. It's not just recognizing what other people are going through, but it's actually really appreciating the impact that their actions have on deep-rooted belief systems of people.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, it's um, you know, we talk about customer centricity, right? Uh, as CX leaders a lot. And we talk about what drives our customers, what motivates our customers. But in the reverse, what drives your people who are working internally, where you know, they're not driven by a certain role title that you're given, they're all individuals. So a leader will literally segment their own people. You know, they do that that internal segmentation, they understand the drivers and the motivations, they understand that your people are all on different journeys and different pathways in their career life cycle. Some people might not want to be promoted or might not want to, you know, move up the chain, but they might get joy. We talk about customer joy and you know that thrill point. They might just get joy if you acknowledge them, you know, once in a while. Some employees or some of your people might not like that open acknowledgement. They might be a bit more shy and they might like acknowledgement when you have your one-on-one meetings. So, to do that, you have to be a people person. You've got to be empathetic to be a good leader. I love this topic because you know it we talk about customer centricity and we talk about how to make organizations customer-centric. With that comes a lot of change management, right? Because you're asking people to think differently, you're asking people to do things differently. With change management comes empathy, comes it come it comes with that understanding that everyone within your organization is going to work differently. So, how do you take them along on that journey?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

If you can start that change by understanding not where you're going to, but what those individuals are having to give up, because that's the change as well. What am I going to stop doing? Because quite often that that's just assumed that that stuff you don't want to do anymore. And a good example, we work with the government department, and they wanted to, and understandably, they wanted to get better with their data so they can be predictive about regulating these particular group of people to make sure they were providing a higher quality of standards. To do that, the data need to be in a better quality, and it may even prove that it was way back when they were kind of coached at university, things weren't going right. So they brought in the people who are managing the data and said to them, you know, we are going to transform you into futurologists, you're going to become insight geeks, it's going to be an incredible thing. And I never forget it because um someone in the room didn't put their hand up and just sat there and went, Can we start by you just asking me how my day is once in a while? And you go, Wow, you know, kind of you've just missed it so much. And I think that's where perhaps the CXC, that that's what that empathy means, isn't it? It's very different to perhaps if you are you know a leader in the sales team and you've got to be seen as kind of motivational and the the one that people want to kind of follow because that's that's the prize you're going for. Not to say that's a modern day you know need anymore, but kind of you you it's a different set of skills, isn't it? Do you kind of come on to another question about difference? Because you mentioned you worked in the private sector and the public sector, and customer experience works in both places, but you know, what what are the obvious differences between the two? You're you're well well positioned to give us your um ideas on this.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

I think one of the biggest differences is probably that commerciality. So, you know, the drivers to be customer-centric is different, I think, in the private sector compared to the public sector.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

So, you know, in the private sector, you are extremely competitive market, like that. You you work for certain organizations that are trying to survive or trying, you know, trying to compete. So that in itself is a driver to want to set yourself apart. And when that driver exists, I think it becomes easier sometimes to instill behaviors and to instill uh values that lend itself naturally to customer centricity. I think when you come to the public sector, the sheer uh scale of the operations and the size of the operate, you know, of the operations has uh natural, I would say, barriers to customer centricity, you know, on top of there being limited that whole commercial angle to working in the public sector. So again, I think the behaviors, the drivers are different in both the settings, and the scale of the sheer size of the organizations is very different. Because when you talk private, you know, you can work for large multinational corporations or you can work for mid-level private organizations or really small. But when you talk the public sector, there is no in-between. You know, they're usually quite complicated, they're usually dealing with legacy systems.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Someone said to me that if you're running a customer experience program for supermarket or for an airline, you've got a boundary. You're responsible for that flight. Yes, you know that they're going there for a holiday, yes, you know they're going to the supermarket to get the food to come home. But actually, you can put a fence around where you start and where you stop. But in public sector, it's blurred. I was talking to a chap David Wells, who used to be head of customer experience in the fire brigade. And actually, when you put a boundary between you and the ambulance service, you treat it very differently. You actually say, right, that's my task complete. We fulfilled our requirements, hand the person over. But actually, if the ambulance team had had the person handed over at a different state, the chances of survival or the impact it has when they go onwards would be different. Would you say that's fair that there's a there's the boundaries are a lot harder to see? You you have a greater responsibility for things you're not even controlling.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, totally. And I think if you start talking in terms of citizen experience, right? And you look at your life cycle as a human being, you know, you're born, you go through a certain journey, you do your schooling, you do your education, you go through your set your your life cycle. Each of those life cycles that you're interacting with actually deals with completely different departments or state governments, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

But as a person, as a human being, you don't care. You just you know, if you start comparing now with the private sector and you talk about the airlines, yes, there are silos that exist. And even in retail, I think there are silos that exist within the, you know, within the organization. But when they map out their customers' journey, you know, it would still, it wouldn't involve various other depart other departments or other massive other organizations. You know, we still have silos in the public sector, not only within your own department or your division, but outside, when you look at it from a person's life cycle, you know, the journey that they've been through. So you look at when someone dies, just as a you know, as an example, you're grieving, the family, you know, the family is grieving. You don't only have to deal with the department that deals with your debt with the person's debt certificate, but you also then have to make sure that everything else is turned off, literally, like turned off, like the license is cancelled, or you know, all the other things. It will make so much sense if you had a digital wallet, right? Like a like a citizen, like my wallet of all the different, irrespective of which department is looking after it. So I think therein lies the big difference.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

You can just drop it into the recycle bin and that will be the other beer in the UK. And I and I I mean I do see um in the UK, the the UK Passport Office um gets huge applaud for it the quality of its the experience it provides its customers. I find that tremendous because in the private sector, obviously you've got those, you know, the the motivations can be competitive advantage or growth, and you'd hope you're doing it in a way that encourages your competitors to become better at what they do as well. But I can't go anywhere else legally to get a passport. I can only go to one place. So it could be as bad as it wants, but I think that the lovely thing is it obviously connects it into you know societal importance and recognises to make me a happier citizen, then actually that's an experience that's got to be good. You know, it's quite it's such an emotive, important thing getting your passport to travel the world. It's you know it's an expression of freedom, and it so therefore it shouldn't be made to feel like it's uncomfortable, it should be something that recognizes that. And I find public sector areas that almost see their what their role in that customer's life is, are incredible. I think they're just amazing when they kind of they zing because they're only doing it to make our lives better. It's you know when you think about it, a lot you know, commercial companies. If you said to them, Well, you do you do customer experience because You think it's the right thing to do, or do you do it because you know it will give you a competitive advantage? You kind of know what the answer is going to be sometimes. Not always, of course. There's some brilliant organizations out there, but in the public sector, you haven't got that argument. So it's got to be because we want to make this person's life better.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Correct. It's you know, it's looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? So you've got your basic needs, as in, you know, uh flexibility of work, your wages, your remunerated fine. And then as you go up those hierarchy of need, it's that purpose, right? And a lot of the public sector servants feel connected to that purpose of making you know the environment that we all exist in a better environment. So that's what drives uh public servants, or that's what drives the public sector, and of course the government of the day as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Just a bit of a gear change now. So um we know you because you contribute a lot towards the uh customer experience community. When it comes to your what the area you're involved in, you're not dealing with end users, are you? You're way back the value through the value chain. So I I work quite a lot with production supply and manufacturers, so to recognize some of the challenges, but would you mind just spelling out kind of what some of the big challenges are when you're so far away from almost the end customer? I recognise you've got customers in the middle, but you know, what you might perceive as the end user.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, I think a good way of describing it is that, you know, I've worked in organizations where they have customers and consumers. So customers are the ones who actually are making that decision of whether they want to interact with you or the decision of what services or products they want from you. And then you have the consumers who actually consume those services or the product. The challenges are that sometimes you're reliant on business case scenarios or user case scenarios to come from your customer as opposed to the consumer, unless, of course, you spend you know money and go down and do contextual research and a lot of the research to understand that consumer angle or end user angle. Um, I think the other challenge is a bit of a territory game. No, they are our customers, or they're our consumers. So the consumers for us become cus, you know, customers for our customers. Does that make sense? Yeah, so it's that territorial game. Why are you talking to them? You know, they're actually our customers. And you're like, you know, they're all our customers. If we work together, we're actually helping you to deliver a better service to your customer who's our who's consuming the services. That's a challenge as well, the whole territorial thing. I guess the other challenge comes down to drivers and motivations, right? So you're when you're in when you deal with your customer, their drivers and motivations can be price as an example. But that's not necessarily the driver or the motivation of the consumer or the user of the service. It's getting the balance right. It's making sure that you are addressing those business requirements and you are addressing whether it's value for money, but you're also addressing the consumer's uh expectations, which is just simple service. You know, give me something that works. I don't care who you know who's supplying the service or who you are. I just want it to work to be able to do my job.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

I run a series called Shed Talks, and I was chatting to Richard Shinton, who's run some significant kind of transformation programs, and he said it's quite interesting because when you hear people talk about transformation, they only think about it as sort of the first or the second level. Uh, and he said, and that's why you kind of go, Oh, why do we call it transformation? Why do we need this? But he said, What's really transformative is when you get to the third level and those clients or customers come back to you and say, Look, you're brilliant at stuff that we don't actually get from you. So let's say it's something in supply management, you're brilliant at warehouse management. Could you come and help us? Could you help us understand how to do warehouse management better? Or we're really impressed with your asset optimization of your energy consumption. Could you come and advise us and how you do that? So, kind of that that you you cross over that line, and it's no longer just the connection on the product or the service you provide, but they see you, they see the value that that relationship brings to help their organization be successful. Does that resonate with you? Do you recognize that?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

100%. It's you know, and it depends upon the size of your customer as well. So if they are, for example, and I'm talking B2B, if they are larger, larger organizations that you're working with and supplying services to, they will want that strategic partnership. Once a strategy is is formulated, they have the resources to actually realize it at a ground level. Whereas if you work with some of the smaller ones, let's talk about the smaller hospitals and health services as an example, they necessarily don't have the resources to be able to do it all. So they're looking not only for a strategic partnership, but also a delivery partner.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

So you know that so your proposition actually changes depending upon the size of your customer. So but completely what you what you know what you said before like resonates with me a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

There are similarities, but clearly we've highlighted there um some some major differences between working directly with you know end customers as an automotive dealership, right, versus working in B2B slightly back through the chain. As we've been talking, I mean you you say you work in the public sector, you're very much in service of the civilian and the community. I want to talk about something that you've got involved. I want to understand why you got involved and what you're hoping to achieve, and that is women in technology. Because we've spoken about this briefly before. Do you want to just give us an appreciation in terms of what this um not-for-profit uh entity is?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, it's been um established since um 1992, and I hope I'm right, considering I'm on the board of this organization. So it's a not-for-profit organization that was actually set up by a group of women when they realized that there isn't a lot of support for women in STEM. The whole ethos of the organization is building a community that actually supports and empowers and unlocks potential of women in STEM. So a lot of our activities are geared around giving professional support to women in STEM in the form of mentorship, or we uh and we have a board readiness program as well that we run. And I guess my reason for joining this organization is because I have you know three girls and and two boys.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

It's a very, it's a very busy time on any given day. So uh, you know, I've always been conscious of the fact that when we set rules in our house, we make sure that we explain to girls. It's not because you're a girl and they're boys, you're younger. I've always made it a point at home to ensure that our boys understand there is no difference between them and the girls. So I want to ensure that we kind of build a society where my children grew up and they don't have to fight for this diversity and inclusivity in what is going to become an extremely digital economy, right? I want them to be part of that conversation and without having to fight for a voice. That's basically that was one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to join women in technology to make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

I was talking with a not-for-profit training company in the UK, and they said they're noticing actually that parts of society are struggling, there because a bit of a gulf between, and it tends to be kind of to do with affluence, but also they've noticed gender. There seems to be some issues with digital availability rather than capability, but actually access to digital for certain parts of society. Is that a theme? Is that something you've noticed as well?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, there's still, you know, there's still connectivity issues in rural and remote places in Australia, and you would think technology actually bridges that gap, but it hasn't. So it's not only a gap in terms of the skill sets and the capabilities, there's actually a gap in terms of just basic infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Sure. And is that commercial drivers behind that? Is it just not cost-effective to reach some of the rural areas? And how does that affect women specifically?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I think it affects the community more than just women. Uh so you know, that's not an issue that is just felt by women. It's it's a community issue. And, you know, especially when you talk about the health sector not having the right connectivity in in certain certain regions, you can't actually have virtual care as an example, which is becoming, you know, which is becoming so important. I guess the other big thing is that it holds an entire community back in terms of being engaged in that digital economy or being engaged in those digital conversations if you don't even have access to basic infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I can see how that is a big challenge. I mean, that's a worthy board to be on, and I can see how there's a lot of work you're going to have to do. Not on your own, I'm sure, working with telecoms companies and government departments trying to make sure that some of those things that perhaps you don't even think about connectivity are still very, very precious and need to be developed in different communities.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

We advocate for the women and in regional, rural, and remote, they don't have access to a lot of facilities or support. I think that women support you would have in metro regions. For us to be able to deliver our services in those areas, connectivity would help. So we can run our courses or you know, our the offerings that we basically have. If for us to be able to take it outside of metro regions, it would assist if we have better connectivity essentially. But I was talking about it more in terms of just general healthcare, you know, service.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

No, I can see that it would seem a travesty if the reason that somebody isn't able to get healthcare is because we can't do something as simple as get a digital connection to them, but therefore can't see, they can't understand if they've got an issue and actually they can't receive that kind of virtual treatment that can obviously help prevent you know the escalation of other shoes. So it blows your mind really when you think where we are, and that's actually the that's the very that's the the thing that's actually holding us back. But I think probably something every organization can take responsibility for when they're considering their digital transformation is just to think by doing this, are we leaving any of our customers or our citizens adrift? And if we are, then this isn't the right solution. We need to rethink it.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Correct. Yes. And uh sorry, Christopher, I just want to correct when WIT was founded. I incorrectly stated that it was founded in 1992, but it was actually 1997.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Well, look, this has been um a great conversation. I think we've that we've been around many different spaces here, um a bit wiggly like your career, as you said. So uh every topic, it just when we um when I unpack it with you, it's just such a richness of considered and conscious discussion. So I'm very grateful for you you sharing that, and I'm sure it will provide a lot of inspiration and probably spark a lot of new thinking with people as well as they listen to this podcast. So thank you so much for your time today.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Thank you. Thank you for asking me to be part of uh your podcast. It's been really interesting. I've really enjoyed the examples and you know the conversations that you've had with other people and how you brought it in into this conversation that we've had. That in itself, like I've learned a lot as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Well, no, and and and likewise, I think others will reflect on what they hear today and be able to connect it with their own challenges as well. So uh so thank you for that. And I'm sure we'll see you as you are very much someone who likes to give back to the community. I'm sure we'll see you on many platforms taking the sector forward as you do so well already. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Thanks, Christopher.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Okay, I'll let you go. Thank you so much, Grimm. Take care, bye bye. Bye.