Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 12 Episode 4 - Measuring Customer Experience - Prof Dr Phil Klaus

Can you be a double CX Superhero? With Prof Dr Phil Klaus we believe so because this is his second invitation to guest on the Customer Experience Superhero podcast. This time host Christopher Brooks gets the opportunity to find out more about the man behind the best seller, Measuring Customer Experience. Almost 10 years after publication, it is still seen by many as the ultimate book on CX measurement. 

Phil is the latest author to guest on Lexden's CX Book Club.  And as has become the tradition, we spend time discovering where the inspiration to create the book came from, how it jumped from an idea to a best seller, what the writing process has meant and the aspects of publishing less enjoyed. On accounts Phil is very frank and reveals some of the frustrations encountered along the way.

Phil's book, which provides a methodology for measuring behavioural change from customer experiences is as relevant today as it was when it first hit the shelves. If you want to know more about the person behind the author, tune in.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Customer Experience Superhero Podcast series. My name is Christopher Brooks, and I'm your host throughout the series. A series in which we meet up with some of the special individuals in the sector, and they share their inspiration, their insights, and their ideas, which are helping to progress customer experience as a recognized business practice. Today's guest is a returning guest. It's Professor Dr. Phil Klaus, currently residing as the head of faculty at the University of Monaco, looking after the luxury marketing university courses. Phil and I have known each other for many years, and I'm grateful to be able to call him a mentor as well as a friend. And it's been his advice and guidance that's really helped shape my career. So I'm very grateful to him for that. Along the journey, Phil and I have been engaged on many initiatives, and this is another one in which I'm very proud to have Phil involved, and that is Lexton's Customer Experience Book Club. Phil's publication, Measuring Customer Experience, has been with us for a number of years, but it is still revered as one of the most important books in customer experience, bringing a brand new behavioral measurement program to life and helping countless organizations be able to capture the value of customer experience to their business. In this episode, we get to meet the author and we go on a journey with Phil from the very beginning to where he is now and understand just the path he's taken, the people who have made an influence in his life, and also his take on what customer experience is about and where it's going. So without further ado, let's go and meet Professor Dr. Phil Klaus. And we are here today with Professor Dr. Phil Klaus. Now, Phil is someone I've known for a long time, but there's much about his past, which I don't know, which we're going to get to explore today. But firstly, Phil, welcome to the CX Superheroes Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Again, thank you so very much for having me, Christopher. It's a real pleasure. And today we talk about something that you would like to know that you don't know yet.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, we're going to talk about we're going to talk about you because normally when we get together and talk, we talk about the ultra-high net worth individuals, we talk about EXQ, CX measurement, we talk about specifics. Now, we're going to park those today because coming up in our CX book club, we've got a QA session with our members, and we're going to dive into your best-selling measuring customer experience book, which is still the benchmark for anyone who wants to understand how do you measure customer experience. It's still the benchmark. And we're grateful that you've agreed to be an author for our book club, and we're really looking forward to having the discussion. We haven't had an academic so far. They've all been kind of business practitioners. So it's great to have not only an academic, but one of the top 2% academics in the world for this subject. So it's great that you're going to be a part of that. But just parking that to one side, let's get to you. So you and I have known each other, I think, probably for getting on for 10 years now. It's been a while. It's been a while. I've followed you across, and you've been there for me as a mentor and advisor throughout, which I'm very grateful for. But I think probably what I've not asked you is much about kind of where the idea of a book came from. You publish a lot in journals, marketing, and research journals, but you know, the idea of a book where it came from. But before we get there, I want to go back even further. Because obviously, the position you hold now and the reputation you have in customer experience once wasn't there. So take us back. When did customer experience first become part of your life?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Customer experience, for the lack of a better word, has always been a part of my life because I worked in marketing function as a manager. And it was, how should I say, despite it now being the flavor of the months or the flavor of the last years for the lack of a better word? For me, it was always the center of everything because marketing was based upon in the 1980s, we all spoke about brands, it's all about the brand, yada, yada, yada. Everybody worked in branding agencies and so on. And I looked at it and I said, Well, I think you guys got it completely wrong. Because a brand is like a bird's nest. It's mixed out of, we know how birds build nests. A little branch here, a little bit of mud, a feather there. And then it has one construction that settles in the mind of a customer. I will say perfect brands is when we all agree upon what the brand is all about. Let's say lexin consultancy stands for independent, rigorous consultancy in customer experience for the right causes, doing the right thing. This is how I perceive it. This is my Lexin personnel. When we think about made in Germany, what do we think about? Reliability, engineering, great value. But now when we think about made in Italy, what do we think about? Design, Dolce Vita, luxury lifestyle, everything that comes with it. So I always said a brand is nothing else than a reflection of what we experience. So therefore, I believe we cannot manage a brand. And I also couldn't agree with all these people saying things such as I just spoke to a former colleague of mine, she said she hired a color psychologist for the brand. And I can see where she's coming from, but I believe a brand is not based upon a logo, a font, a jingle, a color. It could be part of it now. But now when we think about the big brands in this world, well, let's say an apple. If we live in a parallel universe, and I will tell you one of the leading consumer electronic firms has a rainbow apple that somebody bit in. They're like, what the hell does that have to do with each other? Or Mercedes Benz a star. It's a car, not a star. So it's obscure to think that these things are somehow related, or you should focus on them. Also, and look at the great consultancy companies. Some students of mine, they are now in an entrepreneurial project and they wanted to figure out what's our mission, what's our vision, what's our brand, what's our logo. I say, look at the big ones. Look at Lexton, look at McKinsey, look at BCG, what's their logo? Oh, they don't have a logo. I'm like, see, and it's still a brand that everyone accepts. Oh, that's right. And I said, for me, it was always this brand thing was an obsession. And I thought, what we should be working on is what drives the brands. It's causalization, cause and effect. Effect is the brand. What's causing it is the experience that you have interacting with the company, with their representative, or for a lack of a better word, with a brand. So I was always an outlier, an outsider who said all this brand stuff, nah, don't get me started. We should think about what drives it. And what's driving it is the experience that we're customers have with a brand or a company. That's what makes it. So that's where it came from.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Excellent. You'll be amused to know that I've just written an article for our A to Z, which is Oh, the Outsider. And I've referenced you in it. Isn't that funny? I've referenced you in it as the outsider. But in a different context, I've referenced it. So but it's the same theory that kind of you have this ability to stand outside of the convention and then come back not just with an informed, but with a rigorous, quantified hammer that you smash through it. Now you mentioned there, Phil, so let's take us on a journey. You mentioned you used to be a marketing manager. Remember you mentioned this before, a marketing manager for a financial service company. So you haven't always been an academic. You're the rare breed who's actually you've walked in the shoes of people that you talk about.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

I remember when I was 40 years old and I had the opportunity to either take a nice job in London or go back to the United States where a position was waiting for me. But uh my MBA broker manager said to me, You should become a scientist. And I said, Why in God's name would I do that? And he said, Look, the point is you've been a manager. And I'm like, Yes. You've been experienced the shortcomings of frameworks, concepts, models, measurement that came with it. I'm like, yeah. So they asked me, what was the main thing that you take away from that? I said, every silver bullet that was presented to me by consultants, by academics, scientists, whatever it was always a short-term fix, a band aid, nothing else. It was, I always compare it to an analogy that I have from the healthcare field. Think about you have a headache. So you go to your doctor, and the doctor says, headache here, take some aspirin, knock yourself out, you're gonna be fine. Four weeks later, you still have headaches. So you come, doctor, it's not getting better. So it says, Well, I give you a higher dosage. You try it. Two weeks later, you're again at the doctor who says, Oh, again, you, yeah, it's still not working. Okay, now we add this kind of medication to it. This is how I felt as a manager, the approach from outside forces and sources to solutions to my problem. Give him a higher dosage. While what I really needed was a doctor saying at my third visit, let's hold on the moment here, let's find out why do you have headaches in the first place? What's causing the headache? Let's work on the cause, not on the effect. And I thought to myself, well, this is what I really wanted to do. And the MBA program director, Professor Melton Kirk, up said, then you have to become a scientist and think about it. You can dedicate four years of your life to just figuring out a solution from a problem that you and your fellow managers accounted all the time. And I said to myself, that sounds intriguing. And long and behold, there was only one university that was, according to him, open-minded enough for that kind of research, meaning applied research, and that was Grantfield. So I did my PhD at Grandfield, and it was marvelous. Because these people say, okay, Phil, if you want to do research, you have to answer one question. Will it have a positive impact on the performance of the firm when you deliver it? Meaning, can a company, can a manager take what you say on Monday morning to their team and then have a positive impact on performance or whatever they're looking for? If your answer to this question is not a profound yes, then go back to the drawing board. And I thought to myself, I had this vision of people in tweet jackets with the leather patches sitting in Mahagoni rooms where it's all dark in the library hidden somewhere. And these people were people like I who said, yeah, but the difference is we make it rigorous and scientific. We make it long-term impact, and the people who will understand it will come to us. And as a marketing manager, I love that. I'm like, it's the pool motion. They're like, Yes, we do great things, and you know what else we do? We share it, we give it to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

I'm like, how cool is that? So you went from a position of only having kind of short-term transactional stuff that probably was very much exclusive to that organization, to actually democratizing long-term gain. I mean, it's just exactly what you were looking for, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, it was a perfect match. I couldn't have summarized it better, Christopher. Probably you should see where I was sitting.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And then from Cranfield, you were there for a while, but you you you're now you're in a completely different country with a very senior post, a world-renowned university. So what was the next step?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Oh well, after my PhD, I said, look, one thing that's important for me is what I really need to do is I have to go somewhere else. I need to expose to a different mindset, to different people. Because if I stay at Grandfield, God bless them. I know I'm a very proud alumni, and I still love the people there. But for me, it was like if I stay here, I will always do it the Grandfield way. Sure. The methods we prefer, the way we think, we're all alike, this um magnetism, human magnetism. I said, but I need to expose to something else, to something different. So I was holding different positions in other roles at other universities to be exposed to new things until one day I applied for a job at the International University of Monaco. And the International University of Monaco gave me one advantage. They allowed me to have the liberty to take care of my children, and that's the most important thing in my life. So we have a perfect what we call work-life balance, for lack of a better word. And now I'm here, and as you mentioned, Stanford University ranks me as a top world 2% scientist for the last five years, and of course, it will be for the upcoming years, these things are self-fulfilling prophecies. Once you're highly cited, people read your work and cite you. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Excellent. And that's what my point on your outsider was that it's funny, the conversations that you and I have now, the narrative is the same as it was many years ago. And now, whereas people beforehand originally were kind of questioning it because it didn't fit in, it wasn't convenient to their way of business. Now they're chasing after you. You were right, you were right, come and help us, you were right, you are right. Now, between those two periods, yeah, a book popped out onto our shelves. Oh, yeah. And it's in its bold yellow covers, and a book like unlike any other, and it really does reflect what you were talking about there in terms of sharing everything, because you created this book which is about measuring customer experience, not in the conventional way, not in measuring sentiment, but we're talking about measuring behavior, which obviously must have been born of the work that you were doing previously. And in this book is everything, it's not just the theory, but it's the tables, it's the methodology of how to do it. It's incredible. So I don't want to get too much into the details. I want to reserve that for our uh book club guests and members. But what I do want to know is when did you start to think there was a book in you? And was it that was the motivation the fact that the sector was focused on sentiment analysis, or was it something very different than motivation?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Well, one thing I quickly learned is I combined my knowledge from management with the kind of knowledge I received from Cranfield and my other positions, in order to find out what is the source problem. Going back to the source, what's causing all this, how shall I say, misalignments, this short-term thinking, transaction, and so on. And the answer was clear, pretty clear from science. It said, you're measuring the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

People measure sentiment, people measure intentions, people measure a certain feeling at a certain point. And every time I looked at what they are doing, I said, this is flawed. Let's start with intentions versus behavior. I always use with every audience the example of the New Year's resolutions. I said, 31st of December, glass of champagne, clock strikes 12. And you make a promise to yourself. How many of these promises of the last three years still stick? And then I see everybody's looking around and like yeah. And I said, How about this is what to yourself? How about you make that to somebody else? There is no correlation and between what we say we do and what we do. It's just human behavior. So I said to myself, so why we measure what we say we might do somewhere in the future instead of looking at what people actually do. And my supervisor said, excellent point, go for that. I said, Good. And then we looked at more details on like what kind of behavior should we measure? And based upon this work being written at the beginning of the 21st century, introduction of social media on mobile devices and so on, it became clear that word of mouth, by the way, always had a great influence on people. We just did it differently. We did it verbally at the market, talking to a person we know, friends and family. Today you share it with the world. It's there for everyone to see who has access to the world wide web and is interested in and probably stays longer than we are even on the planet. So the impact now is significantly higher. But word of mouth always has been there. So word of mouth is a good measurement in order to see what drives behavior. Also, we have to think about earned media versus old media. Again, come back to the branding ideas. People thought we control the brand. Today we know no one who's really controlling the brand are customers. Just think about the United Airlines example. So it's clearly 10 million in stock in one day, lost it because somebody posted a video of you mistreating their belongings. I mean, the power clearly shifted. So I said, okay, so we also need to look at where the power is today. Then people said, oh, we should measure repurchases. I said, repurchases based on the research I do with firms every single day, have no relation to actually what your relationship is with the firm. Let me give you an example. We did a piece of research with Shell, which was really great. Great people there. Crispin Rogers back at the time was the leading marketing manager. Great firm to work with. And what they they had these loyalty cards. Where you go, you get your gasoline, and then you get a special offer for Snickers bars and so on. And I wanted to demonstrate why this one is not a good measurement. And I took the example of one gentleman in the UK who went every Monday morning to the shell station and bought gasoline for approximately 70 pounds at this time. And if there was a special on Sneakers bars, because he liked them, he got two for one, three for two, whatever it is. So they thought he is a loyal customer. Now I spoke to this customer, and the customer said, and I asked him, Are you a loyal shell customer? He's like, Hell no. I said, Can you explain that to me? He said, I'm actually a road warrior. So all week long I visited sites of ours throughout the UK. So I do a lot of mileage.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

And I said, So you use then shell on your way too? No. I use all the others because they're more convenient, more this, more that. I said, so why do you use the shell station always on Monday morning? He said, well, it's easy, Professor. It's the only gas station between my home and the highway. So what so this makes clear that when you measure repurchases, it's a poor measurement. So we looked at things that are more profound, share of category, share of wallet. Because it means if you have, let's say, a thousand pounds to spend a month on gasoline, how much of the money do you spend with Shell versus the competition, Tesco, Exxon, and so on? So you can get a much better idea of what your relationship is with this customer and what part of uh their life your company is. Because I always say you don't need to convince people to buy gasoline. You only need to convince people to buy gasoline more from you than from your competition. And if you measure that, you have a much better idea. Also, think about repurchases. If you only come once a year to a luxury store, but you spend all your money. You get treated like well, they only come once a year, by the person who only spends 20% of their money, but they come every month, get all the treats. I said this makes no sense.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

So this is the I think thing that makes your book stand apart from many others is the primary this is primary research. I mean these are many hundreds, you know thousands, I think I want to say in terms of pieces of research you've done which allow you to speak with such authority in the book. So when did kind of did you start to do the research with the book in mind or was the research part of kind of your a dissertation or or something? What what what was how did it jump?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Did a publisher approach you where where did the book kind of start to originate from okay research my PhD was about developing that measurement. So I dedicated four my first four years of my academic career and then all the other years to get it perfect. Right. So this was my PhD. But as an academic as a scientist you're being graded evaluated and therefore remunerated on your scientific success. One thing I love about science and I have to make that very clear when I was a marketing manager or a consultant it's always about my master is to get more money and a better deal. While in science my master is the truth. I don't have to be selective with information to tell a story. It's like this is how it is take it or leave it. The beauty of science and this gives you this incredible force gravitas behind you because what you do no matter what you find out it advances knowledge. And no matter what it is you present it as it is right there. Unfiltered this is what it is deal with it do something out of it. One as a consultant and marketing manager you have always to be careful to cater politics organizational behavior groups personal careers stakeholders and so on. But with this you can go the book but I said look I can become a great scientist which apparently people believe I am perceptions are reality. I'm not going to challenge them on this one but I said I have a different audience and my audience are first and foremost managers. I remember my first presentation as a PhD student was in Reykjavik in Iceland and there was an American scholar who was head of the what they call this doctoral workshops. So they have doctoral students like I was a PhD student to present to guide them in the future and I presented mine and he looked at me and he said young man this is made for the Harvard Business review but you want to publish in the journal of marketing and I said I see where you're coming from but I take an HBR article over journal marketing every second of the day because this is my audience. I'm not doing science for the sake of science I believe and I mentioned meta theorists are the people who theorize about theory and they said marketing is about guiding and supporting practice not a theory of I said these are my people you might look at a different audience I would be just fine with an HBR article. So I knew immediately that I'm again an outlier here but I couldn't care less because the only thing I cared about is an audience who I want to reach so I said this is my scientific audience and this is my managerial audience. And I believe the work I deliver has value for both of them. And I believe I pretty much got that right but only because I understand both audiences now. It took me longer to understand the scientific audience much easier with the managerial one. But we all have challenges in our lives so it goes this way.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

And talk and talking of challenges I mean obviously what you present is really compelling. I've heard you speak a number of times and you never deviate from the truth. You keep very close to it. You know you present it as it is and you let people take their interpretation and they may love it or it may be inconvenient for the way they've set themselves up that's that's their kind of choice. But get into bed with a publisher with an editor who have defined ways in which books have to be shaped they have to work your your book isn't conventional. When you read it it doesn't matter if you're reading 10 other business books this one is different in the way that it's written which which is obviously appealing when you're reading business books because it it stands out was was there tension or was it actually a kind of a a very smooth creative process how did you find that that period of your life writing the book writing was challenging but not because of me because of the publishing houses to be quite honest.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

If I would do it again I would self-publish. Okay that's interesting because to be quite frank I got no support the editors they sent me I at the end of the day ended up with pretty much doing it all myself writing it all myself telling the people who they should contact never ever something came out of it and I did all the public relations at the end of the day I got the people who supported my book because they love my work and to be quite honest if I would do it again never again with a publisher to take most of the money and for what? For their brain for their connection I could never see anything tangible that they actually delivered.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

So next time and there will be a next time it will be by myself via book at the end of the day I thought to myself I'm also a marketeer so I said well if you ever have to argue and I saw it in later on in one of my presentations where I was sitting with the board and somebody said well what makes you the expert about customer experience management measurements and somebody the board said he wrote the book on it that's the perfect answer isn't it you answer to end all answers and I also yeah and I wanted to write a book because white papers are nice.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Business books are normally the best of I have a tendency to buy business books like the good to great blah blah blah whatever they are these airport books I always call them airport books because you're waiting for your flights where you're like oh let's read this and see what they do. I always buy them 10 to 12 years later and then I look at the cases and I'm like are they still there? What happened to them? So you can see these are just snapshots I wanted to deliver what I call a reference book. You know we have reference books we all have them like I have here on my test rhetoric the art of persuasion and William Strzok and E.B. White The Elements of Style which is about writing compelling coherent stories. These are my reference books these are not just I read them once and then they die in the shelf these are ones where I'm like okay let me just take a look here and this is what I wanted to have I wanted to have a reference book but mostly for the managerial audience I had in mind a managerial audience. Somebody always said let's look that up but I didn't want it to make it like a pitch or from good to great and blah blah blah. I wanted not to sell a car I wanted also to show them how does the engine work how does the transmission work but on demand I mean my book starts very fun and if I can say that but says at the beginning right away if you're a manager and you're not in the history not interested in history skip to number go directly to page 152 and go into action. So I had that in mind when I wrote it the publisher said do you think that's a good idea? I said hell yeah because if I would be a manager and buy it I would say oh today I need to imply it right away so I don't need to read about the history but then when you read it you're like hmm I would like to know more where that comes from and then the book gives you a reference to read upon it. Like one is for let's get it going with the team so they understand it while the other is then saying let me know can I know a little bit more about that and this is what this book is that you have something that gives you that you can take and implement. People should take it implement it but also understand why it is designed this way what are the benefits what are the challenges what are the opportunities so I was very blunt and I believe the uh history is important. We need to know the history where we come from in order to understand where we are and when we're gonna go and I believe that was for me also a crucial part because I needed to understand customer experience from a historical perspective as a PhD student. And that helped me a lot to frame it and to understand it. And I found out that in 1856 I guess it was 1856 a French economist said people don't buy services people don't buy products they buy things to have a great experience I said that was in the middle of the 19th century and the guy got it right what changed it's like and and and this is what I always tell people look customer experience is nothing new. It's not huffy puffy it's not emotions it's not experiential marketing or sensory this could all be a part of it. But I always say custom experience going back to what our function is as marketing scientists is to make your clients more and more often from you versus your competition. That's it. And my measurement will help you Peter F. Trucker management gurus of the management gurus only what gets measured gets managed. And again this is where my managerial background helped me because when I said we should develop a scale and people are scale really do we need it? Yeah because I look at the scales that I exist and they are insufficient. I remember during my first presentations as a PhD student I criticized unfortunately for them the gods of our science who were like the seminal papers of service quality but I criticized them in a way that I said that was appropriate at the time and I believe now we need an upgrade and everyone in the audience said how dare you criticize their work our work is based upon I'm like yeah your careers probably too so what and they were like going at me and I'm like Jesus Christ don't take it personally and then funny enough during one of these conferences I guess it was in Germany even the gentleman who wrote the book on service quality came to me and I sit next to him and I said I saw your presentation I read your work I'm like yeah people give me such a hard time and they're like no you're doing exactly the right thing you're not like the other saying oh this dimension should be different this dimension should be different you are upgrading our work to something that's more relevant now so go for it and I'm like thank you because I the man is great and his work is great. I said he said I don't take it personally I think you're great you're doing the right thing you're just upgrading it with the there and now you're upgrading it it's totally fine with me.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

I mean it it brings us to the kind of the a good kind of closing point which is in customer experience you you're you're seeking to create better outcomes and and that's all he's saying there too isn't it you're creating a better outcome so that customers choose you over others. So you know it would be really hypocrit it's great to hear that from him because it would be very hypocritical for him to write like that and then say oh no mine's a definitive work it stops here whereas actually it's an enduring forever strategy customer experience because there can always be an improvement upon it.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

It says a lot about also his what kind of human being is what kind of marvelous human being and scientist always and I I I model myself some of the things that I do according to him. I mean I always start with criticizing my most recent work as I say good at the time because the publication process in academia takes a while so from the pretty much from the time you collect the data and answer the question before you see it in print can take three five even with our most paper it took seven years to get there. So but the great thing was also for me I couldn't wait for my next presentation and somebody said you're criticizing I'm like well I just spoke to him funny enough and he's totally fine with it. So you can be fine on his behalf too he's he's an outsider too it turns out yeah so no and you're absolutely right Christopher it's about outcomes that's what really matters. So so that brings us up to speed so the book is written it's out there you're currently say residing at the International University of Monaco there you teach the master students yeah we have an uh M Lux program master in luxury management my colleague uh Dressa Annalisa Takini Poli that was it's the longest running luxury management program worldwide and it's also I believe the most successful one one we specialize in luxury management. There are other schools but I mean let's be quite honest and Monaco us being in Monaco and luxury management goes kind of hand in hand. Monaco and luxury almost like synonymous or always put in one sentence so it's very advantageous for us. It's very advantageous for our students no for our future managers. They are not students they're future managers we prepare them for day one after they graduated and courtesy of her great work which I could be a part of that she does with our students we also have an excellent reputation in particular the ultra high net wealth individual field so in terms of super yachts financial wealth management and so on the people that graduate from our university pillars of the community people that really change the way we should think about things and we might have a small part in that and we are grateful for having the opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Well I think I mean anyone who's seen you speak or anyone who's been at your your lectures I mean I I'm I feel privileged because I've got to spend a bit more time with you hangs off your every word and you go back to the office and you say you can you can apply it. I think the journey you've been on allows you to speak with authority because you're not just coming from an academic perspective but also you you recognize the shortfalls of of many of the the management approaches but you're really conscious of the movement that is customer experience the circus that is customer experience and you step away from that as well which is is is great integrity. So I'm really grateful for the time we've spent here I know we talk but you know it's lovely to actually get you to speak to an audience because you you reveal new snippets. I mean I've just learned about one of your kind of your heroes and icons which is wonderful. Lovely to hear that and also you slipped out there there will be a book too so I'm really there's a there's an empty space on my shelf that's been waiting for it for many years. So I look forward to that. But for now Phil we'll sign off we'll see you for the QA and then incredibly considering you are a practicing academic we're going to get you to do a workshop with us with the members of the book club actually applying what's in the book. Now I've made a bit of a living of this because I've actually seen it work in organizations. So I perhaps you stand on the sidelines. I've seen organizations benefit from measuring behavioral change using EXQ which is what we'll talk about in the well we did it together Christopher don't minimize your role into that it's great it's great fun because the results are just so compelling but that will be brilliant for me is to have that session so I'm looking forward to both of those but uh for now we'll sign off and I thank you very much again and uh until the third podcast I'm sure there'll be another one I'm sure there's another well I know there's another topic we're gonna get back to in the future thanks very much thank you Christopher for having me and I'm looking forward to have some interactions with the members of the book club brilliant goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Thank you bye bye