Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 6 Episode 2 - Customer Service Upgraded with Bryan Horn

Each episode unpacks another areas of customer experience with an expert in their field. In Christopher Brooks' latest Customer Experience Superpower we look at Customer Service with Bryan Horn, author of 'Get you Stuff and Get Out!' And we discover how badly managed customer service leads to badly behaved customers. Bryan takes through 'the death words' used by companies when they are excusing their inaction, and how in turn customers are becoming affected by bad service, conditioning themselves for the worst. 

In conversation with global CX consultant and mentor Christopher Brooks, Bryan brings to life how easy it is when you shift the culture, to create amazing experiences without even breaking sweat. Christopher and Bryan exchange a host of real case examples to illustrate the difference between 'not good enough' and 'jaw dropping' customer service. 
Having published his second book on the topic, Bryan demonstrates just why he has become one of the leading 'go to' consultants for customer service improved performance. 

For more on Bryan and his books, check out www.thecsrevolution.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to another episode of Clientships Customer Experience Superheroes. In this series, we bring the talents, the traits, and some of the techniques needed to be a leader in customer experience today. We unearthed the hidden superpowers as well as open up some of the more popular topics in customer experience to understand the difference between good and great. In today's episode, we're joined by a true legend in customer service, Brian Horn. Brian shares with us some of the topics he explores in his new book, Get Your Stuff and Get Out of Here. Intentionally evocative title which pulls apart some of the bad practice we see in customer service. So we are here today with um Brian Horn. Welcome, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

We're delighted you've agreed to come on to the uh CX Superheroes podcast because you've got a particular area of specialism that you've written a book on that I really am looking forward to kind of tapping into. But before we dive too deeply into that, can we take a couple of steps back, Brian? Would you mind just sharing with our listeners? I'll be surprised if they don't know the name, but it'd be good to give them a uh a reminder of you and your plotted history and customer experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Absolutely. Well, my name is Brian Horn, and I'm the uh founder of CX Solutions, which is a customer service and employee culture training development firm in Salt Lake City, Utah. I was born and raised, however, in Nashville, Tennessee, and grew up ranching and farming, and I've always been really passionate about that. But I've also been passionate about service and about people and making sure that people are treated the best that they can. And so throughout my career working in corporate America, I've seen the best and the worst of both customer service and employee experience. And so I'm just on a mission to change it for the better and to make sure that just people are treated right and that they are respected and appreciated and that they know that their business matters. I think that's a something that's really lacking in today's modern customer service, not just in the United States, but I think all around the world, is we've just forgotten about how important people are. And so wherever I can share my passion and my message, I'm really happy to do it. As you said, I've authored two very successful books on Amazon about this topic, and I uh do a lot of training and consulting for companies on how to improve not only customer service interactions, but their employee experiences as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Excellent. And as I appreciate the the latest book covers both topics, which is great. You talk about um perhaps we've let customers down a bit. Actually, what we found in 2020, this rush to accelerate digital was meant that there are fewer human interactions, and our kind of hypothesis was that they become so much more important because you never remember when you glide through an app, you never recollect what the experience was like when you went through purchasing something online, you never sit back and um recall how amusing the conversation on chat was, but you remember often an interaction with a uh a member of staff in a retail outlet, and you quite often remember the conversation you had with a contact center. So would you say it's fair to say it's it, you know, those interactions are far more important now than they've ever been before.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Absolutely, because like you said, we have become such a tech-driven digital age you know economy where don't get me wrong, I I love technology. I it's it is nice to you know sit in your pajamas and order your groceries and have them dropped to your door. That's that's all well and good, and I have real no real problem with that. But there is something about uh interacting with a human being. Like you said, because those interactions are so few and far between now, it is more crucial now than ever before to make sure that those interactions are not just good, but they are great. Top notch, that they are superb, that they are over the top, and just leave your customers saying, Wow, I was not expecting that. That's the key, is not just being complacent, but going above and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Customer service used to be a cost, wasn't it? It was part of the cost to serve. Do you think you need to be up the mindset, and certainly the FD needs to be on your side to say that no, I see customer service now as part of our progression. I see it as a productive part of the relationship before you can get to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. It should never be factored in as a cost because you are in the business of serving people. No matter what you're selling, you are in the business of helping people. It should, it should never should have been looked at as a cost. But especially now, you have to ask yourself, what is it going to cost me by not providing those services? How how badly is it going to affect me by not providing those great experiences? Because the data and the reality just clearly shows that customers now want good experiences and they want good interactions. And if you fail to provide those, you're going to lose money and you have a real risk of going out of business. So you have to now, if you are going to look at it from a financial standpoint, you have to look at it as part of your cost of doing business. Same thing with shrinkage or loss or you know, anything else, any other element of your budget, you have to look at that. But it should just be the mantra of your business anyway, is to provide great service and give customers a reason to come back. It shouldn't be a cost exponent, it should be the sole reason you're in business. But yes, I do agree with you a hundred percent that it is more important now than probably ever before to provide not just again these good experiences, not even these great experiences, but these over-the-top memorable experiences that will keep your customers coming back.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I'm wondering if this is purely because of the way that social media works or if this was going to happen anyway. But customers seem to have more teeth, they have more clout, they have more to say, and they they won't take bad service line down. I mean, the name of your book is actually really kind of taps into that.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

The title of that book is Get Your Stuff and Get Out, Why Customer Service Sucks and How We Can Make It Great Again. And that's where I really kind of dive into this is let's bridge it all together, and and now that we know what the customer's thinking, let's do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

As you're saying, you've got to over-deliver because it is part of the buying criteria now. The purchase, the experience, the usage, the service. You you can't you can't break them apart, they become part of the overall consideration and choice I make, and they will increase my confidence or or reduce my confidence. Is it now the new book being a bit more forceful and saying, look, you know, kind of let's not let's not be soft about this. We've got to get this right.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Absolutely. I mean, that's why I chose a very brazen title for it. Like I said, it's get your stuff and get out, why customer service sucks and how we can make it great again. It's a very in-your-face direct title, but because I believe it's a very in-your-face and direct issue. And I the the vast majority of customers that I talk with when I'm doing my trainings and consulting, they feel like this is the way companies want to interact with them. You know, you walk into a store and you're buying a gallon of milk, and the attitude or the customer service that is perceived is would you please just get your stuff and get out? Don't bother us. Certainly, we want to get paid for it, we want to make money for it, but we don't want to be bothered and we don't want to do anything to provide a great service. So please just get your stuff and get out. That's kind of what a lot of consumers are feeling. And companies, they either know that they're providing those that kind of service or they don't and they just don't care. It's drawing attention to how the can the how the I think the average consumer is feeling is customer service does suck. They're not valued, they don't want to be served by the company, but they still need to get the product or service that they're looking for. So we can make it great again, we can make it better, we can revolutionize it. We have a duty as companies to do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

The starting point for me on this one is understanding what you're in service of, because I think too often organizations are are led down a path of customer experience, which is in service of the transaction. The customer is is part of it, but actually it's about the transaction, and therefore the after sales is particularly poor, and the focus on customer experience is making it easier, making it effortless, um, trying to get more from the customer. But if there was no transaction, there'd be no experience. And and the customer doesn't want to be valued by their for their transaction, they want to be valued for their relationship. So before we even get to the service, is the starting point to make sure that you understand your customer purpose, understand what it is that your employees are focusing on, what they're prioritizing. Otherwise, does that then lead to, you know, get your get your transaction, get your purchase, and get out?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we need to know why our customer has chosen our particular establishment versus another. Because customers have more choices than ever before. You know, I can open up a debit card or a checking account at any bank, I can get a good night's sleep at any hotel chain, I can pick up a gallon of milk at any grocery store. But why did I choose that one in particular? Was it simply a matter of convenience? Was it because they had the lowest price? Sometimes that is true, but I have found that the vast majority of people they know where they want to shop and they have their reasons for doing so. And so we have to understand that. Like you said, where the customer is coming from and why have they chosen my particular business versus, say, my competitor down the road to make that purchase. So, yes, understanding your customer, knowing your customer, and eventually anticipating and exceeding their expectations is all part of the initial customer mapping and part of that customer journey.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

How do you do that, Brian? I mean, this understanding their needs and expectations, their motivations, what fulfillment looks like to them. Working with contact centers, working in customer service, which obviously can be retail, it could be just digital. How do you help employees understand those really important aspects before they even engage with a customer?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Well, I would say the first crucial thing is to have your employees think like a customer because your employees are customers, they're not just internal customers, which should be your company's most important customers, are the people who work for you. These people, these employees, they probably leave your your business and go somewhere to get lunch, or they go and get their groceries after they're done working with you. They go shopping other places and they have their own experiences. And so they need to understand that they are not just employees, but they too are customers and to step into those shoes and look at it from an outside perspective. Uh one of the uh show TV shows I love to watch are Gordon Ramsay. You know, he had the like the kitchen nightmares, and he did a he did a series uh here called Hotel Hell, which was basically like kitchen nightmares but for hotels. He would always say to these owners who would were very pretentious and just very stuck in their ways, he said, When was the last time you stayed here? When was the last time you went through the process of your customers? When was the last time you sat in the dining room and ate the food? And majority of the time they would say, Never. I've never done that. Well, that's your that's the first problem, he would say, is you're not thinking like your customers. You're not stepping into their shoes and experiencing what they're experiencing. And so that would be the first key is we need to understand how do we anticipate those customer needs. And a lot of it isn't rocket science, it's just thinking the way thinking about things that we would probably like and then applying that and saying our customer will probably like that. Great example of that is big uh car dealerships, say in Las Vegas, Nevada, or Phoenix, Arizona. And you know, it gets quite hot, you know, in the summer, sometimes 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Very, very hot. Well, I heard of a story of an auto dealership in Phoenix that when customers are wanting to test drive a car, they turn on the air conditioning and make sure that the car is nice and cool before they pull it around for the customer to test drive. That's a very simple customer anticipation and then exceeding that anticipation because who wouldn't want their car to be nice and cooled off on a very hot summer day? Or another example is a resort hotel in Orlando, a family of four is coming down, it's a very hot day, and they're, you know, the the valet putting them into their car and says and just grabs four bottles of water and says, Oh, here, it's a hot day, you're probably gonna need these today. So it doesn't take a lot. It's just thinking about what's the right thing to do and how do most customers think in and just putting that into action.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

See, I like this space anticipation. I know it's it's a it's a focus in the book. I get slightly frustrated when it gets caught up with the data and it comes next best action and it becomes preemptive and proactive alerts. Now, whilst like yourself, I recognize and value um being a co-owner of a technology company is important. I do, the value of being able to use that data to better serve the customer. I think you make a very good point there that the you know to be anticipatory is not an expensive endeavour, it's actually just to put yourself in the position of the customer and think about what would make that experience better for them. And of course, if you're doing it on behalf of a particular organization, you do it with their consideration to that particular brand. So something like the valet, putting the air conditioning on, putting giving water to the people before they arrive. Um, I remember working with a car dealership and it was um putting a basket in the back of the car because they had a dog, they knew they had a dog, um, so it was already laid out for them when they were going to take the car back. These are not expensive uh initiatives, but they really demonstrate I understand you because I've taken, I've had the foresight to do something ahead of when you thought I was going to. You can keep doing that. You that that's not something that needs to have a cap on it. I feel it can keep going. I mean, how do you deliver that if it's perhaps in a in a contact center? I mean, is that possible to do still there, Brian?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Absolutely, because I'm sure that the people who work in contact centers have themselves had to call a contact center for their own personal needs and they can relate to how frustrating an experience it can be, especially within, say, the telecommunications industry, internet service providers, cell phone companies, those are notoriously horrible interactions that they have with customers. So, an example is something I write about and I'm very passionate about is kind of following the Zappos model of one-stop resolution. Because there's nothing more that frustrates customers when they have an issue, they have to call in, they have to be, they have to wait to speak to somebody, they explain their problem, and then they hear those dreaded death words of unfortunately, you've reached the wrong department, I'm gonna have to transfer you. And so they're cold transferred, they have to wait on hold again, get somebody else explain the problem once again, possibly hear those words, oh, well, unfortunately, this is still not the right department. I'm gonna have to put you on hold. You've just ruined it. You you're you're so far dug in a hole, you're never gonna dig yourself out of that one. So anticipating that customer concern is okay, I know that when people are gonna be calling in, they're probably gonna be frustrated. You know, they want to return or their product is defective. So let's just enable our employees and empower them to take care of it right then and there. And that's what you know, the late Tony Heich was so great about at Zappos was one stop resolution. None of this transferring, none of this, you know, what I call department musical chairs. Just somebody calls in, they have a problem with the order. Okay, I'm gonna not only refund it, I'm gonna issue a return label, and I'm gonna give you a coupon for 20% off of your next purchase for the inconvenience. Done, done, done, bing, bang, bong, over the customer, had everything taken care of in one swipe, and they're done. And that's anticipating and thinking like a customer because these call center agents, like I said, they are customers too, and I'm sure they're thinking, hmm, it sure would be nice if I could call into my uh cell phone company or any other company and just get my problems taken care of in one call. So that's some that's an easy thing that cut uh companies can do, especially in the contact center world, to anticipate and think like they're customers and then exceed those expectations.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Zappos is a bit of a religion. You you you can use you know the great of the work that's been done there in so many different ways in terms of examples of you know proving how you do something. But I love that sense of thinking about what you're giving away there for being able to show actually you should see the size of the next basket value. It's always bigger, it's always bigger. And somebody said to me, it's really interesting when you don't look at the current transaction that you're uh engaging with in a in a context financial agent to the customer, but you try and visualize what the next one's gonna look like, it really does change how you view this one because actually what you're you're doing is projecting whether you're putting it on an upward trajectory or a downward trajectory, and I and I thought that was really interesting, and I've tried that a couple of times in workshops when people play back to you. If you if you get get it right, the next interaction is going to be related to the next purchase. If you get it wrong, the next interaction is gonna be more grief related to this purchase, and it's that simple. It's that simple, and it doesn't matter if you're the FD, if you're HR, if you're head of CS, everyone recognizes that's you know, there is only one outcome we want here for the business.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Well, that's so true, and it's companies who use primarily call centers or contact centers as their main customer service-facing interaction. I I would respectfully say they've gotten it wrong for far too long. Where they're all all they're concerned about is churning out, you know, KPIs and let's let's just get the problem solved as fast as we can, or let's, you know, churn, you know, let's just churn and burn, churn and burn. Let's get through as many calls as we can, let's not offer any real solution or real service. And again, Zappos, like you said, it is kind of like a religion, but Zappos and many other organizations too have taken a completely different approach and just say the only KPI that should matter is is the customer happy and was their situation resolved? And however long it takes to do that is acceptable. And that's I think the approach, again, that that's a great anticipatory aspect of customer service is not just solving their problem, but really taking the time to make sure that it is solved, not just rushing and and speeding through and transferring to a different apartment when things start to go just a little bit wrong. Really take the time to listen to the customer and listen to their concern and resolve it in an amicable manner. That is a great anticipatory act of customer service that is really lacking, especially in the call center environment.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

In that last conversation, you mentioned the expression death words. They just change, they physically change you as a customer from being quite, you know, I'm ready to have a conversation here to oh my god, I I I know before we even go any further, I'm not gonna get what I want from this. Tell me more about this concept, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, so I'm gonna go in order from the the least bad to the very, very bad.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So the first of the least of the worst death words you could use, I could really get into trouble for doing this. And I'm sure you've I'm sure you've heard that, I'm sure your listeners have had that, where an employee says, I could really get into trouble for doing this because it's nothing more than just a teenage guilt trip. That's all it is. You're made to feel better. For getting your problem resolved. And so, yeah, that's that's an instant uh like a put puts a sour taste in your mouth. The next worst one, again, getting progressively worse, is that violates our policy. So what you're doing is you're admitting that serving you as a customer is not one of their company core values. So therefore, by taking care of you and resolving your concerns, that is a violation of our company's uh values and our policy, which also just confirms to me as a customer that you are just here to make money. You don't care one bit about me, but you certainly care about your bottom line. The third worst one, again, getting progressively worse, is we're sorry for any inconvenience caused. Because let's be let's be honest, you don't give a damn about the problems I'm going through. You are not sorry, you are saying that to perform CYA, which I'm sure you know what CYA is an industry term for. Cover your you know what. That's a company's way of saying we can do anything we want, we can create as much service interruption, we can create as many disruptions as we would like. But as long as we say we're sorry for the inconvenience, oh well that makes it okay. I I wrote a great example of this. How it was delayed uh in St. Louis trying to get home to Salt Lake City. We had to sit on this airplane for like four and a half hours before they figured out that something, you know, the the engine wouldn't start. I why it takes you four hours to figure out an engine doesn't start is beyond me. Um I can put my key in my car and turn it and figure out in two seconds the engine doesn't start, but whatever. You know, 150 passengers get off this plane. There's one ticket agent trying to relocate and how you know, all these people. They gave me a number to call, and what was the first thing they said? We're sorry for any inconvenience caused. I said, Well, are you gonna put me up in a hotel? No, we're not gonna do that. Okay, are you gonna get me a rent a car? No, we're not gonna do that. Are you gonna upgrade me? No, we're not gonna do that. But we're sorry for any inconvenience caused. And I was like, oh, shut up. You know, just shut up at this point. So that's another one. Okay, the fourth worst one is I'm sorry you feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Oh, now it's getting personal.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Oh, yeah, because now you can hear the lack of sincerity. You're not sorry for the inconvenience caused, and you're not sorry that I feel that way. But the reason why that one is such a slap in the face is because what you're saying is everything I've just told you is just a feeling. It never really happened, and so therefore, I don't have to do anything as a company to resolve your issue because there's a difference in feelings and facts, and if I feel that way, it's just an opinion. But if it actually happened that way, then I have to do something about it. So that means I actually have to take a few extra seconds out of my day and you know, uh actually do my job that I'm getting paid for. Oh, no one's got time for that, you know, of course. So phrasing like this promotes this insensitive belief that customers are just not actual people and they don't have a real concern. And if they don't have a real concern, then we can just, you know, brush it off and just say, Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Have a good day and goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

You've tapped into one there, which I think is a big red flag for me in customer experience management, and that is it's becoming it's become heightened this year. There's a lot of people who talk about you need empathy in customer experience, and and I'm I'm not disagreeing with that notion, but I think what's less understood is what empathy is, and you've made a really good point there. I could see someone coaching about empathy and using the expression what you should say to the customer is I'm sorry you feel that way, but you've just really tapped into something that's very important, and that is that you've you're actually telling them this is an abstract concept, this is not reality that happened. You've just created this fictitious story of what what you think occurred, and now I'm gonna tell you the reality of what actually happened, which is opposite of being empathetic. And and I think there's a real, I don't know if you come across this Brian, but I think there's a real danger in this space that we look at this, we look at that topic a bit too superficially, and you really do need to understand what it means because those tiny words can actually make such a difference to the rest of the relationship. And I think a lot of people aren't aware of just how damaging it is to use the wrong vocabulary when it comes to customer experience and customer service management.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Absolutely, I mean uh amen, amen, and amen. And that's why this last one, I save the best for last, just really drives home that point. That worst of the worst of the worst of the swear word, F-word, bad word, customer service, death words is unfortunately. That is the word of all, you know, it's like I don't know if they have over there in the United Kingdom, but that movie, a Christmas story, it's it's an American classic. They actually play it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I think for two solid weeks before Christmas. That's how ingrained it is in our culture here. But um there's a scene in the movie where the the little boy accidentally says the F-word.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

And it's said in the 1944, and he said it the movie takes place in like the late 1940s, and that was the worst thing you could say back in the day. And he gets his mouth washed out with so he cut he says, I said it, the queen of all dirty words. To me, the queen of all dirty words is in customer services, unfortunately, because what it's doing is saying, I could do something for you, but I'm just not going to. Yeah, it's an instant white flag of surrender, it's literally spitting in the face of your customer. It's just the catch-all word for saying, I'm not gonna help, I could, but I'm not going to. I'm too busy to try to help you. So unfortunately, despite everything you're going through, nothing's going to happen today. Good luck. Maybe you can try again tomorrow. And when you use these words in conjunction, like, unfortunately, that violates our company policy.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Oh, it's a double whammy.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, or you know what, I could get into real trouble for doing this, so unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to accommodate that request. Oh my gosh, like, I want to hit someone or something or both, because it's it is it's like a double, like you said, double whammy. It's a double slap, it's a double spit in the face. It's just the wrong things to say to any customer.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

There is an a Jerry Seinfeld sketch in the car hire company. Have you seen that one?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

I believe so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, and that's and that's what just came to mind there because she stands there and says, uh, I know you made a reservation. Unfortunately, we don't have any cars, and you just see him go from being reasonable to okay, this has now become a game. You have changed, you have changed the game here, and we are gonna have some fun. And and I think probably these are almost kind of those trigger words that just set us off as consumers, aren't they? I mean, I think this leads nicely on to another topic in the book, which is this this this notion of customers are ready to fight. Yeah, what do we what do you mean by that? Ready to fight?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

So, what I mean by that is customers have come to expect the worst. And so they're already going to be defensive. They're they're going to walk into a company and have perceptions based on how other companies have interacted with them and just assume that that's the way it should be. Now, part of this is on the fault of the customer. I'm gonna be very bold and say that. And that is because customers, we have allowed it to be that way. We have not held companies accountable for their bad service, for these negative interactions, so we just tolerate it. And so the companies acknowledge that we're gonna tolerate it, that they can get away with it, and they're gonna keep doing it. So it is the cause, the customer's responsibility to hold companies accountable. And it's really sad in this day and age that people who do that they use this label called Karen's. You know, you're a Karen, which I think there's there's definitely some customers who are 100% unreasonable. But that number, the science has shown a truly unreasonable, unservable customer is between one and three percent. So it's not a big number. But I have found when you look at social media, like especially on TikTok or YouTube, they have whole channels dedicated to Karen's, what they call Karen's. And all it is is the customer holding the company accountable for their bad service. So I don't take a lot of validity to that term. It's really unfortunate that that is how it has become when we hold companies accountable. You're all of a sudden, quote, a Karen. But why do you think that those interactions happen? Because customers have just been so used to getting beat up, being treated like garbage. You know, what's the best way to handle a bully that beats you up every day? Beat them up. Instead of customers coming with their gloves on, their hands up in defense, there it's like Rocky and Yvonne Drago ready to go to battle. They're ready to fight and they're expecting to fight because they know that nine times out of ten, that's probably the experience they're going to get. And so when you as a company have policies and practices that bring down those walls from the moment they walk into your store or the moment they visit your website or the moment they call your contact center, those walls begin to come down, and you can exceed those customers' expectations by simply being nice and by doing what you should have been doing all along, and by not doing what those other guys are doing, that doesn't cost you a dime, but it it's a massive ROI because you've already exceeded their expectations. Because my expectation as a customer was I was going to be treated like garbage, and you didn't treat me like garbage, you've already exceeded my expectation. Everything else you do from there is just building upon those good feelings and that good service. So we have set the bar so low as consumers that companies have can see that that you know, it's just like when we were you when you and I were kids, if we could, if we could put our hand to the cookie jar and mom didn't see us steal the cookie, we did it because we knew we could get away with it. But the minute she, you know, saw us and slapped our hand and said, now, now, now, I told you not to do that, we maybe took a step back and rethought, you know, how we were gonna do things. So, yeah, as long as comp as long as customers don't hold companies accountable, they're gonna keep doing it. Yeah, and they're gonna be defensive and they're gonna expect the worst and they're gonna come in ready to fight.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

When companies, I'm just listening to you there, when companies get it right, it makes such a difference. So I'll give you an example. Um, my son opened his advent calendar only to find that there was no chocolate in the door, nothing there, it was empty. And and you know, you and I can figure out how that's probably happened, kind of in a packaging accident or what have you. But to a 10-year-old, it just is not conceivable. What is going on? This is Christmas, you know, falling apart. And once you put a whilst you put a brave face on it, you could see that he was like, Why is my advent calendar not good? At the bottom of the box, I saw a telephone number you can call up and talk to them about, and it's just a general customer service number. So I called up and got put through to uh an agent very quickly, and she said, What's the problem? That's the first thing she said, What's the problem? And I said, Oh, okay, I'll just explain it. Advent calendar missing chocolate. And her response was I'm so sorry. Who is the choos the advent calendar for? And I said, It's my son. Will you please apologize to him on our behalf? That should never have happened. If I could take your address, we will send a letter out apologizing about this, and you'll also find a complimentary voucher in there as well as a way of an apology. So all of it, this is this is one chocolate, one calendar of hundreds of thousands, millions sold all the time. But she made it feel as if the factory floor had stopped. There's a young boy, a 10-year-old, who hasn't got a chocolate. Down your tools and let's deal with it. And to that point, you know, now that is putting me potentially in a car and category. What you phoned up to bark about the chocolate? I wasn't bothered, but I knew my son needed some resolution. And the way they managed it was awesome. It was, you know, it was elevated to become a really important matter, even though at the end of the day, it was just a chocolate in an advent calendar. So I think when you get it right, boy, you know, look, I'm telling you, this is on a podcast. That's what you choose to do with customer service, isn't it? You have a choice in terms of the impact it's going to have. You can go one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

That is such a beautiful example of empathy, of putting yourself in the shoes of your customer, thinking like them, and resolving the issue. I want to reverse that scenario and go back to what we were just talking about, and you want to talk about why customers are ready to fight. Okay, let's say that uh I was calling into the company, and if they were like most companies, I would say, yeah, my 10-year-old son found that there's a chocolate missing. Well, unfortunately, there's nothing I can do for you. Okay, but I'm telling you the chocolate is missing. Can you please send me a replacement, you know, chocolate or something? Well, unfortunately, that would violate our company policy. Is there anything else I can do for you today? Well, that doesn't resolve the problem of my son doesn't have the chocolate. Well, that would be a violation of our company policy to send that out. It would cost us, you know, quite a bit in shipping to send you a chocolate. So unfortunately, I'm not gonna be able to accommodate that request. Is there anything else I can do? Well, okay, well, now my blood is boiling. Yeah, cool. So now when I so because I have that interaction, when I call maybe another company, I'm just gonna assume this is how it's done. So by that wonderful company that you just talked about, by just simply doing their job, already they have exceeded my customer expectation because my expectation was to hear, unfortunately, I can't send you out another chocolate, unfortunately, I can't send you a voucher, unfortunately, I can't refund your money, unfortunately, your little boy is gonna have to be disappointed and is gonna have to feel like you know, garbage today that his advent calendar missed the chocolate, but all the other kids' you know, advent calendars got the chocolate. But is there anything else I can do for you today? It's lame, quite frankly. It's a lame interaction. So kudos to that company and God bless you for doing that for your son. That that makes my heart happy to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

What what they've recognized, and hopefully it's deliberate, is the relationship that I have with my son. Is if I'm calling up, would I, if it was my Avent calendar, would I call up about chocolate? No, I wouldn't at all. But as a father, I have a duty to resolve things for my son. So if I call if I call up and I get told, unfortunately, unfortunately, my son has a lesser value of me. My dad can't resolve things for me. So actually, what they're doing is a much greater service to parents than just sending a chocolate. They are saying, Dad, we'll take we'll take this one on the chin for you. You know, we'll we'll say you've done the right thing. Thank you. This is a big issue.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

And therefore, it's like dad gets to be the superhero.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Dad gets to be the superhero, exactly. And I really believe, oh, is Cabrice is a is a is a great company, they probably get that behind the scenes, and that's why that's important to do. And I think a lot of companies that use the unfortunately just don't realize what way beyond the rational fulfillment, it's the emotional uh distress that dealing with people like that creates. And they might say that's not on our watch, but you know, it is.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's just because they either just don't care or they've just become so lazy. Because it does take it, it does take a little bit of extra effort, it takes a little bit of extra mental ability and capacity to think through of how to resolve the problem. And companies, because they're so bottom line driven, you know, we've got to make money now, now, now, now, now, doing those extra steps is time consuming. Even if it's an extra 30 seconds, it's time consuming for that company. You know, like they say, time is money. And so that's all they can think about. So they've become lazy, they've become laxadaisical, and a lot of companies, I think, just don't care. And you're right, they don't see a son and his father, you know, and the emotional connection. All they see is the cost of shipping out the chocolate, and that's more of their concern versus how is the little boy going to feel, how's the father gonna feel, and how is their reputation going to be affected by those feelings? They don't see any of that. All they see is the is the bottom line, and that's really tragic. So, again, that company, good on them for doing that, they get it, but sadly or unfortunately, so many companies don't see that. And that's something I'm passionate about changing is these are real things you need to see and you need to recognize, otherwise, your business is going to be at risk of closing up shop.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I think these are great, Brian. I think it's really good that in the book you've got all these opportunities to kind of reassess the way in which you're doing things. Do you provide some direction for organizations in terms of how they can move from that state to a better state?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yes, I do. I mean, uh the books just kind of lay the groundwork. That's where I come in and do individual training and consulting. We put a plan together, I assess the needs of your organization based off of personal observation and off of what you're telling me as a company, and then we put a plan together and then we train and come up with a program to fix it.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

I'm fascinated by this topic, and I love the way you talk about it. We've created a customer experience book club, and every month we're going to be reviewing a book that we as an organization think actually has a real contribution to make to the customer experience community. I'd be thrilled if you would accept our invitation to come along one month and have your book reviewed by peers in customer experience and and give you the opportunity to do a bit of a bit of QA with them at the end. Would you be up for that?

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Oh, I would be humbled and honored. It's it's a true uh it's a true joy to have your invitation. I I humbly and respectfully accept. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Brilliant. Well, look, we'll we'll make that happen and we'll make sure it's a reasonable time for you as well, so that we can uh ensure you're not having to sit there in in your dressing gown or uh try to keep awake, trying to keep awake before you go to bed. So uh we'll do that. Well, look, if I want to get a copy of the book, where do you suggest I go?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

The easiest place to go is my website, which is www.thecsrevolution. That's C as in Charlie, S is in Sierra, CSRution.com, and there's links on there, but you can also just uh type in my name, Brian Horn, into Amazon or Barnes and Noble, and they will pop up. There's also on my website some um I've put up a couple excerpts for preview, so you can kind of preview a couple sections before you commit to buying.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

I guess if people want to connect with you on LinkedIn, they can do that as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

They certainly can. Just look my name up, Brian Horn. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Well, look, it's been a joy. I've really enjoyed this sort of canter around, a really important topic that I think um will be one that many in customer service will sit up and think, hmm, hang on, are we falling into some of those traps? So hopefully it will uh spark some inspiration and some ideas. And we call this series the CX uh superheroes, and it's because we're looking to unearth kind of superpowers. And I think this is one of those superpowers that can give you an advantage in customer experience that you you may not realize was there for the taking.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Thank you so much. It's it's been a joy and an honor, and I've really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you so much for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

No worries. Look, best of luck with the book, and we look forward to engaging you again for the uh Lanthropy CX book review.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Likewise, I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Take care, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Thank you, you too.