Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 7 Episode 2 - CX in the SME Community with Claire Radbourne

Christopher Brooks' CX Superheroes podcast series explores the talents and traits needed to be a success in Customer Experience. We meet incredibly committed individuals who are making a difference through their work in customer centricity.

The SME community is one which CX has been 'sold' to in the past and failed to deliver the returns it achieves for larger corporates. Why is this? A lack of qualified professionals to support this community? Possibly. More likely is that it takes a real skill to take the sometimes jargonistic language of customer centricity ands make it relevant and meaningful to the candlestick maker, retailer or international distributor - all of whom with a few employees are SME's. But each who can increase their fortunes with improved customer experience outcomes delivered. 

That's where Claire Radbourne, from Melbourne, Australia stand apart from others. In this podcast her infectious approach to helping small companies come through. Her empathy for their situation and ability to translate CX in to something small owner companies can work with and prosper. In conversation with Christopher Brooks, Clare shares how she's making a difference to small companies using big business models. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hello and welcome to another episode in Clientships Customer Experience Superheroes. I'm your host, Christopher Brooks, and this is the podcast that explores the traits and talents needed to be a leader in customer experience today. We've traveled the world looking for talent to bring different perspectives on customer experience. It typically seems the bigger the organization, the more the resources, and the greater the commitment to customer centricity. But with it being equally applicable to small, medium enterprises and even micro businesses, how do you adapt the language of customer centricity for the smaller organization who can still take advantage? Well, we've come across a real gem in Claire Radbourne. Claire runs an organisation in Australia which is helping to break the mould so that the independent trader and small business owner can take great advantage too. We caught up with Claire to hear how she's making a real difference to the SME community in Australia. So we're here today with Claire Edborne. Um and Claire, you are on the other side of the world from where I am today. Welcome to the Customer Experience Superheroes Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Thank you. Thanks for having me at what 6 30 pm Melbourne time. Um tropical vibes going on here, a lovely uh 25 degrees. Um such a pleasure to be with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Very jealous, very jealous. We'll move on quickly from the weather. Um look, um Claire, I came across your profile and uh I noticed something quite extraordinary about you that I've certainly had conversations with other people in customer experience, it wasn't possible to do. And I think you're doing it, which is quite incredible. And and at the moment it's quite an important topic for every country to be focusing in on. So we'll come on to that in a moment. But before we do, please could you introduce you know who you are and what you're about. We've got a global listening uh audience, and uh unfortunately I think some people probably haven't come across you, and I'm really keen that everyone does get to know you. So could you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yeah, absolutely, it'd be my pleasure. Um, well, hi everyone uh worldwide. Um my name's Claire. I'm the founder of the X Word. Um I started the XWord, which is uh client experience essentially training provider, um, in May this year, um just as COVID was taking off. Um there's a few major pivots in there. Um I don't really like to use the word pivot, a little bit cliche nowadays, um, but it's not what I thought it would be at the beginning. But I really have found my place and um I really enjoy working predominantly with small businesses to provide really, really simple, really straightforward, no jargon, low cost, um, super engaging um client experience training to really give small businesses the reboot and the sort of kickstart that they need to dive back in as soon as it's time.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Excellent, excellent. And and that's the thing here, it's about helping small businesses. I think in customer experience, we typically start looking at corporates. We typically start looking at organizations who've got the resource or the budget, have got the the capability, people with specific job roles. And then when you look at small businesses, you think, well, you know, you've got an owner, you've got maybe a head of well, not even a head of finance, a finance manager, uh, maybe that's the same person. And all of a sudden you start to think, well, this is complicated and it's going to be difficult to do. It's really challenging if you start in a small business trying to advise a small business. But you've obviously you've earned your spurs, you've got the credentials. I mean, you you come from a large corporate yourself, haven't you? So you've got the I guess the you've you've earned the right to talk about customer experience. Could you just tell us a little bit about you know working in a large organization delivering customer experience first?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah, absolutely. Um I come from yeah, corporate background, um, advertising media environment, um, head of client experience in that space. Um as you say, the real key for me is there's the time and there's the dedication to it, um, to client experience and the understanding, you know, of where to where to put the time, where to put the resources, and really be sort of dedicated to achieving great outcomes for the business and for customers. And it was pretty obvious to me through that learning, you know, it's an international business, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. Of course, if anyone's going to do, you know, really powerful, highly impactful, great work on CX, it's going to be a business that has dedicated teams, resourcing, time, money, significant long-term investment, and a real dedication to the research and you know, all of the data and everything that comes with it. But to a small business, and I'm talking a small business, you know, I'm talking about, you know, sole proprietors, you know, small businesses with two or three people, mum and dad operations that are running from people's lounge rooms, absolutely anything. And I've worked with mum and dad that are making cupcakes from their house and selling wedding cakes or whatever it might be, all the way up, you know, slightly more advanced businesses. That is just terrifying to them. They don't have the time, they don't have the money, they don't have the real interest or understanding to dedicate that level to client experience. So, from my perspective, it was about taking what I knew and scaling it right down and right back to the no jargon, no rubbish, straight to the point. Here's some fantastic, easy-to-use tools that you can take away and have a go at home. Don't have to buy any special software or have any special skill set other than the ability to use a Sharpie marker and a post-it note or PowerPoint or whatever, however, it is that you choose to go about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

The first thing that jumped to my mind is that point you said about the child, we just kind of, you know, walking in and you paint a lovely picture there of just, you know, we're talking about micro businesses here, aren't we? We're not talking about medium-sized businesses, maybe there's 250 or 300 employees. You're talking about people who are crafting to support themselves and possibly one or two others. Absolutely. And sort of, you know, walking in there and saying, right, let's just sit down and look at, you know, what's what's your perceptive measure? Are you looking at effort or are you looking at satisfaction? And how's the sentiment analytics looking on on your you know, the feedback from your customers? They'd be like, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

You know, and immediate disengage, like sure this is over my head. Like, I make candles at home. Um I'm using that as an example, probably a bad example, but you know, you encounter all types of different people and you know some highly successful and doing that kind of thing and really following their passion and finding their something that's really purposeful for them and making a real good go of it, you know. But it has been tough. And from my perspective, it's about sharing my experience and my expertise with those people to give them the leg up, the you know, little bit of motivation to, you know, dig a little bit deeper, find out a little bit more, and then address what those expectations are to really try and keep that you know loyalty going and keep those customers coming back and buying that candle every Christmas or whatever it ends up being.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Well, I think um you tapped into a word there, which for me is what it's all about. It's about purpose. If they've got the right sort of customer purpose. And and here's an here's an expression. Um, we interviewed Jeannie Waters and she said, you know, in organizations, you know when you're gonna have a better time of it with customer experience when you're working with enlightened leaders. Now, I'm not saying you know, you have a leadership team in a small business, but I guess is it is it similar? You know, they're enlightened to the fact that they want to do the best for their customers, um you know, that you help them. I mean, you you can't improve the quality of the cake. I say that you might be a master cake baker, but you know, that's what they do. I'm a master cake baker or a candlestick maker, you can't be you know, you can't be the small business. No, but you you can spot in them the design and the passion to want to do the best for the customers. Would you say it's true, it doesn't matter what size organization, that has to be there.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, I absolutely think that has to be there. Uh, you know, I I've heard this really good, and I wish I could tell you who who said this, and if I find it, I will email it to you. But this concept of like the frozen middle. So, like client experience, C-suite, senior, management, they all understand it. The benefits of a great customer experience, client experience drive loyalty, et cetera, et cetera. And then on the complete other end, those that are dealing with customers every single day on the front line, customer service, if your storefront, you know, whatever it might be, everyone else in the business, they're kind of in that frozen middle. And it's our job generally in big business to take a hairdryer and kind of like try and thaw out the middle to get them to understand how they impact on the end result. The thing that is completely different, and it's almost the other side of the coin when you come to small, small micro business almost, is that the people that are running these businesses and have started these businesses are doing it because they're passionate about it. They found their purpose. They get up every day and they found it. They're they're you know living their dream. Yeah it the purpose of their entire business is to make incredible candles that you know make an impact on their customer, that keeps them coming back, that you know, create memories for them, that are beautiful gifts. They are passionate about it. They're not a mid-level IT person going in and you know doing some work and going home at the end of the day and not really understanding what that means. They're doing it because they're full of passion and purpose, and what they want is a fantastic outcome for their customer base, and that they keep coming back and they're happy.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Excellent. I've got a friend who runs uh a photography event photography business. So uh unlike yourselves, I mean, I appreciate you've got the benefit of being able to move around a bit now, and he's he's not able to. But I remember him saying to me once that uh, you know, one bad day at the office for me will probably take me 10 good days at the office to get back up to where I was. And to your point there, with all due respect to you know, uh middle manager, a bad day at the office, and unless you're very unlucky, it's probably not going to have a significant impact on the business. But you know, you say these people get up in the morning and um clientship, we're less than 50 people, so we're definitely in that category. And you get up and you this is what we created, it's what we wanted to do. So actually, there's a fire in your belly kind of before the day starts. But actually, it must be very frustrating when you're doing what you think is the right thing, which is we know in customer experience, there's a good way to deliver customer experience, and then there's a bad way to deliver it. How do you coach them into understanding you know the direction of travel they should go on? And and and how do you also then start taking some of that heavy duty armory that we use in customer experience in corporates and breaking it down to making it accessible for your your micro business owner?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because I think I'm in in a way I'm onto a winner because people who want to come along and want to participate, they already get the benefit. They're there because, not because they're being forced to be there or it's a work workshop or a whatever it might be a meeting they had to go to. It's actually because they want to do better and they want to um, you know, it drive loyalty and so on. And that's an easy win in a sense. Um and I should say I work a lot with councils from across the country to support their small small business networks. So you end up with a room of 30 or 40 businesses or representatives of small businesses that can be absolutely anything. And you know, we joke about the candlestick maker, but that's you know an example of one of them. I think the thing from my perspective is, and and I post a lot of this kind of stuff on my um Instagram pages, it's just about making it really, really simple. We cut back all the jargon, we cut back all the expensive systems and so on. At the end of the day, it's about getting a potential customer to say yes and then understanding how to keep them coming back. And from my perspective, um and this is what I work predominantly with them on, is you know it's about managing expectation with them. How can you know what they expect of you though if you don't know who they are? And so we go through this kind of process with them where we uncover, you know, who are their key clients and are they targeting those clients, or are they trying to cast a wide net and hope it features the right people, or try and force a square peg in a round hole? Sure. And then starting to look at who those particular customer groups are and what you know journey or experience they'll go through. And again, we're not gonna try and force them to use an expensive software system or you know, whatever it might be. This is about making it really, really simple for them. How about we're gonna learn how to do journey mapping today as a group, all 30 of us standing up in a council office with some Sharpies and a whiteboard, you know, making it really simple so that they can go away and have a go at that themselves. And as I said earlier, if they take one thing away from that, that they more deeply understand their customer base, that they can make a small change that will make a big impact on the other end, that really is empowering them to own that experience and continues to drive customer loyalty.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Brilliant. I can see the click there, essentially you give them the ownership as opposed to kind of doing it for them. But I uh there was an interesting point you said there because you're describing you've got to get to know your customers and free of jargon. You didn't use the word persona that we always talk kind of typically use. I held it back, I held it back. In the next breath, you then said to how they could target them. So I guess this is where it becomes a slightly broader remit for you because in customer experience we might, you know, look at the personas and then start to journey them up and understand where are the game points, etc. But we wouldn't market, we wouldn't sell that to our customers. You know, marketing would be doing their marketing thing behind the scenes experience will be making the promise. Well, would we be helping the business live up to the promise that marketing or promoting will be one of the things they do? So, where where do you stop or can you not stop? So do you do you then all of a sudden become a broader coach, really kind of helping them? You know, I know my customers, so what do I do with them?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, well, I think uh one of the things I always say is, you know, if you think you know your customers, just hold your horses, like check your bias at the door because I'm not sure that you actually do. And what I do find bias at the door. Um it's true. And I imagine I would draw it for you, but since this is a podcast, that probably wouldn't be very helpful. There's a bit of a sliding scale in the old the longer you've been in a business or working for a business, like the deeper you are in the box of the business, the less you thought you knew. So unless you are actually doing this already, which I know that the people in the room are not doing, they think they know who their customers are and they really don't. And so from my perspective, it's about uncovering, you know, working with them on you think you know who your customers are, who are they? And undoubtedly they say, well, everyone's kind of a customer, aren't they? Or the other end of the scale. It's um women between the ages of 18 and 19 and a half, you know, or whatever it might be. Neither wrong, just both quite difficult to achieve. And so from my perspective, it's about getting them to like shift that mindset. Who actually are your customers? Who is buying this product or service from you? And really start to get them thinking a little bit differently so that they can start to customize how how they sell their products, how they market their products, not forgetting that they don't have a marketing department. So, you know, what does this look like rather than advertising on every single possible channel that they can get hold of? Where does this particular group of customers play? Are they 18 and 19? Should you be on Instagram or TikTok or whatever the next thing's gonna be, Clubhouse or whatever it is, you know, or are they, you know, 50 to 60? Should you be advertising in a different space? You know, just some subtle, subtle changes and some subtle things that they can do to start making a difference to shift into that more deeply understanding who their customers are, rather than kind of going, I'm just gonna do everything and hope that I get five customers out of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, what they're looking to achieve, as you said, is greater loyalty. It probably is to attract more of the right sorts of customers. What do they do in terms of measurement? Because you know, we've just said you can't really have a dashboard there and KPIs. And also, I guess in customer experience, we're sort of beyond the fact that it's all about just generating revenue because you're creating a better outcome. So, what's sort of the middle ground that you're looking for with demonstrating, oh, that made a difference?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think look, there's various things depending on what kind of business we're talking about. But you know, uh return customers, I think is the first one. You know, I get a lot of I sold them one wedding cake. Well, wedding cakes may be a bad example because hopefully they'll only have a wine market.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah, you can't you can't control that, can you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

That I can't do. Um I don't do divorce counselling, unfortunately. I'm good, I'm not that good. Um, you know, but they I do work with a husband and wife team actually that do special occasion cakes and they do do wedding cakes, but you know, they purchase one cake and then they don't come back, you know, and and so okay, so what particularly is the issue here? Starting to uncover that with them. How are you marketing it to them? Do you only market, say, bridal fairs and they came and they saw it then, but then they didn't think to call you back because they weren't aware that you did something else or you know, otherwise. So that kind of starting to uncover who your customer base is and how you can get keep them coming back, thinking about the next time. One of the things we also talk about is this sort of making it easy for them to say yes. You know, they bought a birthday cake from you last year using your website on the 5th of November. When it's the 30th of October, is it time to send them a note to say, hey, it must almost be Chloe's birthday? You know, could we could we show you some of the cakes that we've got available? And I think it is just about really pulling it right back, making it very, very simple. And some of these things, you know, in big business alike, of course, we do this very, very basic stuff. But for some of these businesses, as I said, the longer they've been in the business or owning the business, the deeper the hole is. And all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, we never sent them an email that says you bought a cake from us last year, do you want another one this year? Sure. It makes complete sense. And sometimes all you need is that like nudge to remind them of those sorts of things that will make an incredible difference to their customer loyalty.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

And bringing someone in from the outside is you know, in in large organizations, it you know, you have to have the chemistry, it can't be disruptive in a in a negative way. You describe there, you know, and I guess it happens a lot, it's it's one or two individuals. You're sort of like a third of the team or a new person coming in. So clearly from this podcast, I can see you're you're very engaging and people you want to listen to you. Is that just luck, or do you have to work on that to make sure that you kind of win over their confidence and trust when you start working with them?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, I think you really do. I mean, I love people and I love collaborating. I think that's why I like this so much. You know, bringing a group of people around a, you know, a whiteboard or whatever it might be and explaining something to them that's actually gonna make a difference to their business that I know inside out is is the greatest joy. You know, seeing a light bulb moment in someone else is like, they get it. This is gonna be great. Like I can see where this is going. This business is gonna be successful if they take what they've learned today and they put it into place. I do think you have to be, and I always try to be sensitive to their particular business or their particular industry. You know, they're having a really tough time. Why are they having a tough time? Um, is there things that I need to be wary of that are kind of happening on the periphery, um, you know, in the in the environment? Um there are things that I'm gonna suggest that they're just not gonna do. What else can we try? Yeah, and I said, you know, for them it's about keeping getting customers to say yes and then keeping them. And for me, it's about getting them to say yes to trying something and then keeping them coming back to it and and reviewing it and and feeling empowered to at least try it.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

So I'd imagine the biggest enemy is time, because the small business owner, unlike the large corporate, is also the finance director and the head of marketing and production and supply and logistics and everything else. And yeah, you know, if any one person in a large corporation ever tried to take on that, you just you can't do it. So to squeeze more time in for you and for these ideas, it's a challenge. I mean, would it be fair to say that's it? Does it get a thrown back? I just haven't got time to do this. You know, what am I gonna stop to start doing this? And how do you get past it?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Absolutely. Yeah, I definitely think it's a challenge. And I I often collaborate with some other providers that also support small businesses outside the client experience space. And we have this constant debate and battle about when we'll run workshops. Oh, but if we run it at 9:30, then all the cafes won't come. And if we run it at this time, then you know all the hairdressers won't come or you know, whatever it ends up being. But, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think the basis of this is they're attending because they want to, they want to do the work, they want to do better, they want to support their customers, they want to drive loyalty. So, like the mindset's there, great. We've won on that front. Yeah, we try and keep it short and sweet. And actually, I think it's really interesting during COVID. There's been a lot of negatives to COVID, don't get me wrong, a lot. But one of the things That I felt like it gave me and it gave others was time. My work was reduced by a day. I hadn't an extra day to do something with. I know a lot of businesses that were impacted, but again, what it gave them is time. And we leveraged that to kind of go, do you know what? Your hairdresser is closed. You're, you know, you're not making wedding cakes because there are no weddings for the last 12 months. But here's what we can do now. How about let's do some preparation work so that you feel really confident in knowing exactly what you've got to do when your business is ready to reopen? You know who your customers are, you know what they expect of you, you're able to deliver that consistently. Like if you could walk into your business after having been closed for a significant period and know at least that you can trust yourself and that you've done the work on it, and that the time wasn't wasted. There was an experience there and you learned something out of it. From in my perspective, that's worthwhile activity.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Brilliant, brilliant. So you're right. So this kind of unique situation we find ourselves is gifted them the one thing they don't have, which is which is time. You meant you mentioned uh the workshops. So I mean, you're in Melbourne, you've got a little bit more freedom there. So I'm guess I'm guessing you've moved into running uh in-person workshops.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah, we're we're back with in-person workshops, which is yeah, super exciting.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

So, how do you how do you frame these workshops? Because obviously, I mean that must be another thing. It's do I go to advanced candle making or do I do I go and see Claire? So so give us a kind of a pitch in terms of how you present these workshops.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um you mentioned before that you know, I seem to be uh uh probably overexcitable, let's say, um, enthusiastic, but willing to share. Um willing to share, certainly. Um I really market the workshops as, you know, I I want people and and small business owners and founders to come along and get reinvigorated, um, refocused and really kick start their business. And that's really how I market them. You know, this is a great opportunity if you feel like maybe you've struggled a little bit, uh, maybe you tried to start your own business and you had issues, COVID hit, whatever the issue was that you came up against, um, this is a great opportunity to come in, to look at it from a new perspective. Um, and that's really what customer experience is at the end of the day, looking at you know the business from a different perspective, your customer's perspective, um, and really walk away feeling like empowered to give your small business another go if you had given up on it or started to feel like you were struggling with it. So I think that's um that's how I have been marketing them, which has been pretty successful so far.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

And the refresh, recharge, and reboot.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah. So that's one of the programs that I've been running um across the country essentially during COVID. The one plus to COVID from my perspective is uh previously I would have flown interstate and delivered these workshops. Um I was able to stay at home and um deliver these workshops through local councils across the country and to their small business networks. Um as I said before, it was a it was an interesting time because um even though for many of them they'd been really heavily impacted by the world situation and and and COVID, it gave us the clear air to actually take some time out and and run some workshops with them that would recharge, reboot, um, and yeah, really give them that kickstart to give it a brand new go again and and feel um empowered to do so.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Excellent. We you've spoken a lot about mindset, and I certainly see not just in this space, but it's kind of you've got to get that mindset, then you give them the skill set, and then they can kind of impact the environment that they work in. But what I've been very impressed during this call with Claire is that you did start off by saying it has to be very simple. And quite often we we hear that word in customer experience, simple, and then it just dives into a very kind of complicated world. So it's is that something you've had to be very intentional about, making sure that you keep it simplified?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Very, very, very simple. My job is not to come in and recommend they implement some software program or you know, whatever it might be. It's to take a business that wants to thrive and wants to do well and have customers keep coming back and help them to essentially achieve that through client experience. It's front of mind for me to uh focus on the basics. Who are your customers? What do they expect of you? Are you able to deliver that? If not, how can we improve this? You know, do we understand who your customers are? Let's do the real, real basics, basics. And this stuff actually makes a difference to them. And they are magnetized to it or attracted to it because you make it simple for them to understand, and you're essentially giving them the skill set and the confidence to, you know, walk away and try to more deeply understand their customers. If it's too difficult, it goes in one ear and out the other ear. It's complicated, it's convoluted, it seems like I'm not really going to get it the first time, too hard basket. It's got to be simple and it's got to be easy for them to understand.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

And we've mentioned sort of you know home retailers and retailers, but I'd imagine this is the same for small manufacturing companies, service providers, professional solicitors, etc. There's there's no, you know, it's just the size of the company that's the common factor here. It's not the type of industry they're in, is it?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

No, absolutely. And I I mentioned this um early on in our discussion that you know I went through a few pivots, a few uh swivels um during COVID. And, you know, when I first launched my um my business, the expert, um, you know, I had initially thought it would be, you know, I'd go into you know medium-sized businesses and they'd pay me to come in and I'd do this you know, solid piece of research, make some recommendations on how they can improve their customer you know experience and and um you know what what changes they'd need to make to keep customers coming back and so on. And then COVID hit and who wants a stranger coming into their business and asking them for a large check at the end of it, um, just as we're about to go into a you know pandemic situation. You know, I I think there was a bit of forced adaptation in that in that situation, and I pretty quickly learned that especially in that environment, you know, uh corporate size or even medium-sized consulting was not a priority at that point in time, keeping businesses afloat and giving them things that you know they could do on whichever scale worked for them and making it you know easily applicable in a smaller environment was going to be sort of the way to go, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Brilliant. So I mean, I don't think that what you have to offer is specifically related to a region. I think quite a lot of times, you know, corporate customer experience, you need to culturally adapt it. But I think we're talking about you know small organizations looking to recover, to rebuild, and sort of you know regenerate themselves. So I'm hoping your in-persons are also um online workshops that you run as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I am running some um workshops online and my Instagram following, which um I've has been a steep learning curve, um, is pretty much small businesses and sole traders, startups. Um, so I'd really encourage them to yeah, get involved, get in, get in touch. Um, happy to share what I learned through the workshops and and any content. And I've also made a heap of free tools and um templates available to small businesses on my website as well at no cost, so they can go on there and um download a few things and have a read and yeah, get involved.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

That's pretty clear. Well, I think it's it's a service, you know, that that that society needs at the moment. Um, and you know, these organizations are in our communities and they are the kind of the lifeblood of our communities, it's really important to support them. So, you know, I'm really delighted to hear there's someone out there who's a specialist in this particular space. It's fabulous news. So we'll make sure that we put details so people can get hold of you. I guess they contact you and then you can tell them details about the the workshops and they can get the tools, etc., off your website.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Absolutely. It would be my pleasure. And it's yeah, I suppose it's a joy to be able to take what I've learned and share it with other people and and just make it simple. And um, yeah, I just give everyone the opportunity to get involved.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Well, I think it's kind of one of the one of the superpowers that many many kind of need to work towards in customer experience is to recognise that you know you you in customer experience you give a lot more than you get. You know, you share your knowledge and it and it makes better outcomes for all of us. It's it's not a it's not a discipline you go into if you want to be the world's richest person. It's a it's a giving. You're in service of other people, and that's a good thing to be. And you are a personification of that. So thank you so much, Claire, for spending your time with us. I wish you all the best because this is an endless journey you're going to be on. There are always more small businesses out there that need support. But with people like you there for them, I'm sure a lot of them will be kind of putting their hands up and saying, There's a reason I recovered, and it was uh to do with dealing with the X-word. So thank you very much for your time today.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.