Dov Gordon helps consultants get ideal clients by becoming “under-the-radar” leaders in their industry.
I heard him on 2-time CEC guest, Richard Shuster's podcast, and the way he spoke about creating referral networks immediately made me want to connect with him.
He's an incredible communicator and has really figured out how create profit around community.
This conversation was incredibly enlightening for me, and I'm sure you'll love it too.
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hi, this is dove Gordon from profitable relationships.com and Pablo sent me an email and it just demonstrates that he is somebody who practices what he preaches. He knows how to reach out and build a, what I call a profitable relationship with precisely the right people. And if you have an opportunity to do anything with Pablo, whether it's a, just a one-off conversation or a hand him lots of money to do something big for you, I'm certain just based on, on our interactions so far that you will be very pleased. So as I have been.Pablo Gonzalez:
Welcome to the chief executive connected podcast. I am Pablo Gonzalez, your chief executive connector. And today we've got somebody I have been dying to talk to since the moment that I heard him on a podcast with my friend, Dr. Richard Schuster, he holds the, the rare space in my life of somebody that I listened to on a podcast. And then I really listened to it. And then I really listened to it again. And then I went and stalked him on a bunch of other podcasts. So this is dove Gordon who helps consultants get ideal clients by becoming under the radar leaders in their industry. You can find firstname.lastname@example.org and he's just somebody that I very, very much echo with the sentiment I told him before we got started. I think he's a genius from what he's learned to the way that he communicates it. I'm really, really excited. Welcome dove. How are you doing, man?Dov Gordon:
Oh thank you, Pablo honored. you, you sent a very nice email, eh, the, the. The kind that, you know, it'd be nice to get every day, but you know, once a year is also nice.Pablo Gonzalez:
Cool, man. Well, listen, all sincere, like as I was, as I was listening to the, to your interview on the daily help in which I'm going to link to it, the show notes for anybody that wants to go check that out. Cause it was really, really well done. Two things hit me. One is you have arrived at similar truths to me, which is something that I immediate. I'm just like, all right, this guy's one of my people I want to be his friend. And the other piece is you're really good at communicating it. Like I was just telling you, I've, I've taken some of the language you've used in the interview and literally that week I put it into a sales presentation. So, so I I'm really pumped to, I'm really pumped to get into it, man. you are, you are known as like a relationship Alchemist, right? You've you've created these alchemy networks. can you. Tell me how you tell me kind of what that looks like and how, how you got there in brief. Sure.Dov Gordon:
Yeah. So I'm one of those people who I like to think I'm good at what I do. I am good at what I do. I'm very good at what I do. Thank you, but I'm not a natural marketer or sales person, and that was a struggle. So for the first, you know, at least seven, eight years, it was an uphill battle, you know, going back to the early two thousands. And I knew that I've had what to offer, but I'd never had a real job. So I really just kind of showed up and, and, you know, got married, realized I need to do something to pay the bills. So I had heard about this thing called business coaching. I enrolled in a, an a two year coach training course never bought the ticket, the certification because I really started coach certification is not what brings you clients and that's important for any coach. I think certification actually matters. It's a topic we can go into if you want. and then I was looking around a little, how do I find. Potential clients and, you know, step by step I'd find something here and something there, but it was very difficult. I took, you know, enrolled in courses, worked with coaches to PR you know, programs, read books, but it took many years until it started to fall into place until I started to really understand how is it that you take your expertise? How do you package your expertise in a way that your ideal clients get it, they understand what you can do for them. And they want to buy now along the way, I came to realize that there are so many people like me who are not the, you know, celebrity guru type. We're not interested in putting ourselves out there center stage. We're not a performer per se, you know, not a showman type. But we have a lot to offer and we're competing with those people who are very medic guru type showman and so on. And the fact is that those people stuck up all the time. And I'm not saying that from jealousy, as long as they're acting ethically and most are there's nothing wrong with it. They have certain advantages and they should run with them as far as they can. The question that I was perplexed by as well, what can I do? What could be my unfair advantage, so to speak and, you know, some, so at some point, I, I switched my focus from, you know, from targeting larger companies, doing strategy and organizational and other types of projects for the larger companies. When I say larger, I mean, between 10 and $200 million in sales, I had as leading a CEO peer advisory group for a number of years, with the CEOs of that, of that size who I'd reached out to cold in most cases and that's a whole other story that taught me a lot. but I realized that I had finally figured out a lot of these pieces here at how to take that expertise, create a flow of clients. And I decided I wanted to shift my focus to help other people like me. because I realized that there's a great need. There's a great need, helping people who are not interested in becoming, you know, Facebook ad Ninja is not interested in becoming content marketing machines, not interested in, you know, in so many of the things that everybody says you need to do. And they're all good, you know, all good things to do. And I stumbled across it quite by accident. And I realized, well, how am I going to find these people? How am I going to get in front of the other consultants, experts entrepreneurs, professional service firm owners, how am I going to get in front of them? I decided that I was going to do it through at the time joint venture teleseminars. So those are people who, you know, it was before zoom, you get on they would promote mine, hog, promote their, as we build our email list together you know, build our social media following, which was not even close to what it is today and, and the pie expands for everybody that way. So I, I, I didn't think to start my own group at that time. I figured there must be existing online forums and networks and communities. I joined several, I didn't find what I was looking for. So I realized, well, I may as well just start my own. I reached out to a handful of people. Who literally five who I'd met in various different programs or courses that I had participated in and said, Hey, this is what I want to do. Would you want to join it and said, sure. And we started, and that was the beginning of a really long run. We grew that up to you know, a couple of hundred members. And I was, you know, we were all growing together, you know, and by the time we got to a couple of hundred is going back a couple of years ago, I had members in my network who previously I would imagine these people are, you know, I I'd put them on a pedestal up, up in my mind. And some of them I still do probably. And like, what, what would they have to, you know, why would they want to have anything to do with me? But now they're members in my network. And I got to this point a couple years ago where I was running this for free. Yeah. I was running for free. It made sense for me because at least I, I believe so. because I still believe so because they were helping me grow my core business. They were helping me, you know, we were helping each other. And then I realized that about half the members are active and about the other half were not active. I needed to know who really wants to be there. And I decided it was time to start charging a modest annual fee. And honestly I was, I was really, I was afraid I noodled on it for several months. I was afraid because I thought, well, what, I'm going to lose a lot of these relationships, probably. We're talking about a thousand dollars a year. All right. You know, let's say one to $2,000 a year, not a lot, but I, you know, there's a big difference between free and even five bucks, you know, in some cases. So I just, it was a leap and I got to that point where I felt like this is what I need to do. And if the whole thing comes crashing down, so be it, I'll start over. You know, and I got to a point where I was, you know, I think we all face the, come to those crossroads where we have to make that decision and take that leap. And it was interesting. I was afraid we'd end up with, you know, maybe 10 to 20 members. We ended up with about 45, as I recall, we've more than doubled since then, without me even trying. And I aim to double again, get back to where we were. but this time with people who I know that they all want to be there, we have amazing people. I just got almost all the members are nominated from existing members. I just got one member sent me four or five nominations just overnight. And I looked at that and, and every single one of them are people that I've heard of. I've come across. They're they're well known in their circles and it'd be great to have them as members, you know, right before this, I was just replying to them and telling them a little about what it is. And here you can schedule a call. So. That's that's what happens when you, when you know about a year or so ago, I started to realize that there are a lot of other people. I started realizing that my clients could use the same type of model to grow their businesses. And I, I started thinking about this, but I really actually started thinking about it a few years ago, but I, I was a victim of the expert's curse, the curse of the expert where you figure, well, if I can you do this, anybody can do this. You know, this is, it can be, it's not that hard. I mean, hell the most human thing ever. Yeah. So I think, wait, I'm going to start, you know, I have a little coaching and consulting business. Now, what I was thinking about is, well, maybe I should just focus on helping people build their own alchemy networks. And then I thought, well, there isn't that much to it. I mean, anybody could do this, you just do this, that and that. And, and, and it's done like what, what, what would I, where's the value? I mean, it's not like Facebook ads, which are constantly changing and you've got to test and tweak and throw boatloads of money before you even figure out what you're doing. Over here. You just invite some people and run some meetings and this and that. But I, I suggested that a client of mine who does consulting for half a billion dollar businesses and up, I suggested, I said, I think you should start an alchemy network. Similar to what I did. There are some differences because my JVMM network was a network of colleagues and his would be either a network of ideal clients or really it would land it on recommenders. I can explain the details if we want to, but so he started building his own alchemy network for aiming at senior executives, at companies doing half a billion dollars an hour. And that started to be, to grow and become a way for him to get his foot into some very good doors. A new client for him is $200,000 up to a low seven figures from three, three months up to a year or longer. And it started to work, but as I started working with him, I realized that. This is, I actually know a lot more than I realized I've got, there is more to this than I realized. So I, I, you know, I, I ended up getting another client where I'm helping them with that and another one, and it's a slow, it's been slow because I haven't even pushed it really hard because I'm, I'm currently at the stage as we record this in early 2021, I'm Carly at the stage where I'm now reshuffling all of the, the, the knowledge and training that I've created over the years and really directing towards alchemy networks. last year we grabbed the domain profitable relationships.com. and, and I did make that second leap. This is my, the first leap that I took was really narrowing my focus. I know I'm starting to start to charge for JV. And the second leap was really narrowing the focus. So everything I'm doing is really focused on profitable relationships, helping consultants become what I think of as an under the radar leader in their industry by building their own alchemy networks in, in one of several different models. That's the that certainly gives us where to start thatPablo Gonzalez:
day. That's a great, that's a great start, man. And, and within that story is all the stuff that I loved, you know, not all of it, right. Like a lot. There's a lot, I love about what you're doing. Right. But like they, the stuff that made me feel connected to you as you described that in Richard's podcast is a couple of different number one, that's a feeling of imposter syndrome of, of really stumbling into something and be like, how the hell the health is, doesn't everybody know to do this. Right. Like, I, I feel that way every day, but you know, I think there's something a lot to be said about finding your super power, embracing it, using it, to serve others, and then realizing that it is monetized able without it being disingenuous. Right. Like so I really, really echo that, that at the time core of all of it, and I think this is the problem that you and I both solve is this idea that. Intrinsically when you have something to offer to the world, right? You feel like you're doing them a favor, right? Like you're, you're helping people out and feeling of being salesy sucks when you really think that you're helping people and you've tapped into something that, in the story that you're telling me, what you're telling me is you've gone from like seeking sales, to sales, seeking you. Right. And that, and that I think is at the end of the day where every subject matter expert, every coach consultant service provider that really. Cares what they do for people. That's really the best place to be man. And I find that a real genius part of it. And I think that that's the most sustainable piece of it is not these tactics like Facebook ads and funnels. And you know, all the stuff that the Instagram gurus will sell you, it is relationships, right? Like it is creating this like flywheel for relationships that come into your life. And it seems that we positioned it a little bit differently. And again, it sounds like you are, you know, when you're describing the showman and the guy that loves attention, you're describing me, right? So like, I'm, I'm the extrovert version of this thing. And you seem like you're the introvert version of this thing, but we still have arrived at this philosophy of. And again, I'm using my own language, but being the stage instead of the star of the stage itself, right? Like being the person that owns the network that connects people is the, is the most valuable point. Instead of just being like the guru leader, a guy that everybody is following, man. So I, I just, I really find it all to be, it rings so true to me. It's so brilliant. I love the idea that you are positioned for the person that doesn't want to be out there and be out in front of it, man. So I would love to kind of deconstruct those things, things that you're talking about, that, that come easy to you, the concepts that you're just like, how does everybody understand this? Can you give me a couple of examples of the strategy pieces or like the mechanics of what came naturally to you that as you're teaching more and more people you're like, Oh, wait a minute. Okay. I guess I do have to talk about this because they now already think of it.Dov Gordon:
You know, I had, I was talking, working with a client earlier today and. That came up in some way. And just trying to remember exactly what it was, but it's that I, you know, I said something and, and he asked her question and I came to realize, Oh, you know, like, you know, it's, it's, it always sounds like a really small thing when you talk about it. The problem, the thing that I really came to realize is that when I'm working with somebody and they ask a question, I came to, realized that the answer might be really simple for me, but for them it's a question that, that brought them to a standstill. They don't know what to do next. They can't see their way forward, or they're about to go forward in a way that is really gonna, gonna suck for them. It's not gonna work. So for example, today, one of the things that we do in the alchemy networks is that we do not use Facebook groups. We don't use LinkedIn groups or anything like that, or Slack. I do not recommend that. It doesn't mean that it can never work. in some circumstances it might be the right thing, but. Generally, I recommend Google groups as a way of building these communities for a variety of reasons and a client I'm working with, he said he wasn't so sure about that. He was thinking that maybe, you know, there'll be better, we'll have a private forum. And I walked him through some pros and cons on, you know, I feel like one, one aside 0.1 of my core beliefs is that there are a lot of ways to succeed and I never, I'm never going to be the one who says, this is the way I did it. That's the way to do it. I think that's, that's patently stupid. What I do like to say is these are the principles that I built on that I think you need to take into account. Let's figure out how to apply it for, for what, for you, you know? And because there are timeless principles and, and there are. No billions of ways to succeed and only one way to fail, which is the opposite of what a lot of people think they figured out there's must be one way to succeed. And if I could just figure out what that is, or if somebody would just tell me how, you know, what's, what should I do? What's that one way that everybody else seems to know about me, then I'll succeed. And it's really just the opposite. there are billions of ways to succeed and there's one way to fail. If your activities, if the things you do day to day are aligned with the underlying principles, that's the underlying structure. And that's kinda where the name Alchemist comes from alchemy, which we can talk about that, that if you're aligned with timeless principles, then you, you know, you can figure out your own way of succeeding, something that really fits your personality, your values, your goals, and so on your dreams. if you violate that, if you violate timeless principles, it doesn't matter what you do. And that's the one way to fail, just violate timeless principles, because then it doesn't matter what you do. You're not going to get anywhere. So, so he was asking he had asked a couple of people who were joining his network about like what they thought about Google groups. And I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but I can immediately realized that he was heading for potential disaster. He had been thinking, no, I don't, you know, I'll probably try this, this forum I have built in, on my site. And and then, you know, I shared a few thoughts about that. And then somebody, one of his new members had said yeah, actually that's fine with me. I was part of a Google group once I liked it. So then he suddenly got excited. So I said to him, well, what if the next person he talked? He says, Oh, Google groups, it's terrible. I hated it. that that's a problem. He says, what are you gonna do then? W he said, yeah, I thought about that. I'm not sure. So I said, we need to talk about, where's the line between leadership, you making decisions about what this is going to be, and, you know, and, and requesting input and feedback, because there's just no way that you could do, you know, make everybody happy. So that's, and that's part of what this is. This is, you know, leading it, you know, I, I break this down into four phases, there's design it, you know the alchemy network, design it, launch it, lead it and leverage it, leverage slash monetize it. So there's leadership and that clip into place. You know, we had a conversation about that. So it's not rocket science most of the time but there is, there are things that people just get stuck on or they're about to head into, you know, into a rock slide without realizing it. and, and the amazing thing is that, you know, we all need somebody to coach us. We all do, because it's so easy to see the answer for me to see the answer for you, for me to see the answer for that client. It's just not as easy for me to see the answer for me, even if I'm making the same mistake. And and I think that, you know, that's just true. So it another example, I've, I kind of see that. I seem to be pretty good at, let's just say, you know, messaging, developing, you know, just marketing messages. Well, thank you. But also outreach messaging, an email, a cold email, or called message on LinkedIn. I mean, we've all gotten the stereo, you know, the, the typical and, and it doesn't talk to us, right? So what I'm working on right now is, you know, I, I have I actually started another network called the under the radar leaders network, which is a network for consultants who are using my alchemy network approach or something similar to, to grow their consulting businesses. And I'm, I'm creating a training for them, which is very much focused on outreach, you know, writing messages for outreach. So what I'm realizing is that the, and what prompted me was, was in conversations with clients, I came to recognize that this is something that even the people that I thought would be very good at it. And even those who have had success at it, there's another level. There's another level to this skill that I can, can help them with. And I started developing this and I shared it with the two of them yesterday and I got great feedback like, wow, this is just going through this, in this structured way. And laying it out is just in the examples are really helpful. So you asked me some examples of what comes up and yeah, no, no, you got it, man.Pablo Gonzalez:
Listen, what I love and the story that you just gave me that you didn't outright say, but it's something that happened to me too. Right? Like I, I set off on a way to sell people community, right? Like I was trying to sell businesses. You need to have a community too, but it's not a Monday morning problem. And I feel that now I saw content and then I inception community is, it sounds like you are. You're coaching people, man, like you are you're, you're basically communications coach, right? That is teaching people how to communicate better and, and growth and whatnot. But you're selling them this alchemy network. And then because you're selling them this alchemy network, which is this tangible products, they also get this kind of coaching guidance from you of how to be emotionally intelligent and whatnot. I really, really liked that, man. And I'd love to hit on, I'd love to hit on your outreach messaging. Right? Like I have a formula for outreach messaging, right. I always. And I learned this from one of the executive directors of one of the charities that I used to be on the board for. But I always, I always start with the word you, instead of I write, because I think people care about themselves. so instead of saying like, I'm a big fan, I'll be like, Oh, your thing that you said really inspired me. Right. I generally, if it's a totally, totally called outreach messages, it's probably the, the formula used to reach out to you, right? Like I I'll start with you, you know, you sounded amazing on the daily helping then I'll put in a separate paragraph. I'll say, you know, your messaging is different than other people I've heard because of this and this and this. And I'm applying it to my life. I phrase it as a testimonial, right. Like I try to lead through the door of value. and then I'll in a second paragraph would be like, by the way, you can use that as a testimonial. And then I'll get some, my I'd love to meet you or whatever. And then at the end of the day, I make it easy. Instead of saying, whenever you want meet me, I either give them a calendar link, or I say, these are three days and three times pick one, right? Like I try to reduce friction and I try to lead with values. Do you have any kind of like formulaic kind of, or concepts that you use to craft outreach?Dov Gordon:
Well, first I wanted to say something about what you did and w well, first of all, the email you sent me was definitely it was clear that you weren't, that it wasn't a mass email and that fits with what you've just been describing here. It was clear that everything you said you meant and right away, that sets you apart. And I think that's that, that's where a lot of people get stuck is people are in such a rush to scale that they're looking to automate relationship building. And in my view, there's something between one-to-one and scaling and that's leverage. And that's what I think an alchemy network creates is that it enables you to leverage relationships, as opposed to trying to scale it. You know, where you're bringing in automation and technology to do things that automation and technology just cannot do. It doesn't mean that you'll never get responses. Of course you will do, but you know, when you're trying to use technology to do something, that technology is, you know that's not meant to do where essentially you're just kind of fooling people or trying to think you for people it's not gonna work. It means that you're not really seeing people the way you need to see them to get the response from them that you want to get. And I think that what you just beautifully laid out in your approach is that you're coming first of all, with the right mindset, for lack of a better word. You know, you're thinking about this in a way where, Hey, this is a potentially valuable relationship for me, perhaps, but also for them. You're right. You know, let's look to see both ways now. That's reasonable. Well, I'm reminded of what I heard. You know, somebody has shared with me the difference between networking and relationships. At some point, you know, networking is we're all just out there, we're passing business cards or the digital equivalent we're collecting names. And you know and that's it. I mean, there's no real thought to it. A relationship is saying to somebody, you know, let's, you know, if we were to intertwine our futures, we'd both be better off, you know, it's, we're saying that if I understand you where you are, where you're headed, what you're looking for and why, and you understand me where I am, where I'm headed and what I'm looking for and why we could find ways to be valuable to each other, it could be some information, it could be an introduction. It could be you know, maybe just rolling up my sleeves and helping you with something. and and that's what a relationship is that where my future becomes interdependent with your future. Yeah. In order to do that, you do need to be willing to realize that I'm going to go for a smaller number with higher quality. So I mean, totally onboard with that. And you know, with you now, in terms of a bit of a kind of the structure of it is you want to reach out and, and talk about a problem they have and don't want, and, or a result they want and don't have, because those are the only two things that anybody's interested in. If you talk about your expertise, your company, your product, your experience, what you want, that you want to talk to me, you want this, you want that. You know, nobody really cares, but if you speak aloud, like for imagine you'd read a recent, you know, like the last 10 pages in my most private journal, and then you call me on the phone and you email me and you say, Dov I know that that you're struggling with this and that don't ask me how I know. How do you know? Hey, I didn't tell that to anybody Dov I know you're struggling with this or that or Dov I know that you really want this or that that's your, you know, your ambition, your dream. I think I can help you. Should we talk? Of course you can get a response. Now when we're, when we don't have access to somebody's deepest thoughts. And hopefully technology never gives us access to somebody's deepest thoughts, but things are just meant to be private. Right. And we have to make, do with a little bit less, you know, and, and that's where it becomes a little bit tricky. And I think that without realizing it, people try to automate and leverage where they're going. We'll say, well, I don't know if this one's going to work. I don't know if that one's going to work and relationships take time. So I'm just going to throw spaghetti against the wall. I'm going to spam, lots of people using automated LinkedIn software, which again, I also believe has its place, although I don't usually use it.Pablo Gonzalez:
I have a very visceral reaction to anything that I perceive as an automated mesh. And I'm, I'm I'm with you there, but it does happenDov Gordon:
it's on your banner right up there. Right? It was your, as on your, your LinkedIn banner, I think, right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I saw, I saw earlier, let's see here. What do you have using LinkedIn to network automation is in the answer. That's you using your banner very well, in my opinion. I like it. So first of all, so it's recognizing that the only two things that anybody pays attention to or anybody's interested in, and there's a difference of attention interest is if you talk about a problem they have with the want and or result they want don't have. And the other thing that you need to realize is that anytime you're sending out a message, you're looking, people tend to ask for too much, people tend to ask for a response that's a big step. And what I'm showing them is you got to ask for the next small step, don't expect this first email to somebody who hasn't heard from you in a year. To tell them about your alchemy or don't include the price. Don't include anything really. I mean, you just, you're just looking for them to respond a sign of life. So you want to meet them where they are as best you can, by talking to a problem. They have, they want results. They want don't have. And of course we can, you know, we have to be able to think about that a little creatively, like you do. and sometimes we have to make some guesses and there are ways of, of wording that so that they don't feel like you're just making, you know arrogant assumptions. and then the next small step, you've got to ask them to take a really small step. And for example you don't ask open questions at the end of these, this outreach. You ask what I call a binary question binary, where you frame it as a, is it this, or is it that make it easy? Yeah, because he said, Hey, are you still I might say something, Hey, Pablo haven't talked to you in a while. but I was just thinking of you because X and that's something that's genuine. Like, like, like you described earlier, it's gotta be something real that makes me realize that you're not just copy pasting messages. And I thought about you because of X and and, and you know, I, you still doing ABC or are you doing something else? So if I instead will say, Hey, pop, pop. So Pablo, what are you up to these days? I'm suddenly giving you work, I'm asking you to stop and you're going to see that and you think, well, what am I up to these days? I mean, I'll come back to him later, right? And you may never get back to me, but if I ask you, why are you still doing this? Or are you doing something else you can reply as short or as long as you want, the choice is yours. You can say, I'm just doing this. You know, I'm still doing that. Or, yeah, I moved on now I'm doing that right. Or, and you can go on and on if you want to. So it's so important to only ask for the next small step to, to be careful and wise about that.Pablo Gonzalez:
Listen, man, I think is. Brilliant, right. Like I, yes. that thought burden of, Hey man, how you been? Or what are you doing these days? You know, it's like, man, you know the same as the same as let's, let's grab some coffee, anytime you want any place. It's like, ah, now I got to look at my calendar. I got to look at, do I want to do this in a week or a month? You know? Like got it. I agree. I think one of, one of my speaking points, when I talk about networking relationship building is make as much multiple choice as possible, right? When you're, when you're following up and when you are doing stuff like that, man, I really, really like the small step. I love the, you know, structuring it as a problem they have and don't want or something they want and don't have a really, really good. So my shortcut to it all. And again, it's probably coming from my own ego, but I always assume that everybody wants a little bit of extra promotion about whatever they're doing. Right. Which is why I've layered my whole relationship building thing. As every time I get to know you, I'm making content about you kind of thing. And that's at the core of my business model was that, that assumption that it's not a mass messaging, but I think most people do want a little bit of extra attention on what they care about. Right? So that's been my, my kind of go-to you, I would love to hit, I'd love to hit on something that, you know, in my, in my onboarding forum, I asked people what, what they wanna, what they, what they haven't gotten a chance to talk to about. And you said something that's very near and dear to my heart. And it's the idea of discovering your voice as the greatest forms of network. Can you tell me that? Can you tell me that story behind that, of, of you discovering your voice.Dov Gordon:
yeah, so I, first of all, I, I felt that weeks ago, I don't remember what I had in mind then, so we can talk about the, the idea, right. I think that like many for the, for, for whatever number of years of getting started, I get I was like looking around what, what are other people doing? What's working for them? And I noticed that this is going back into the two thousands. You know, I don't know if some listeners will remember this. This is the, the early days of Frank Kern. And and what was he, what did he have there? He had his selling a product. I forgot what it was called. These are the first people to really do these big product launches. You know, there was the I forgot who it was. He did a million dollars in 24 hours, a million dollar launch, but that was, that was like running from it. No, it wasn't Russell Brunson. It was somebody before that, a guy whose name I haven't seen in years. And there is a video on YouTube with Frank Kern, Tony Robbins. And that guy, I can't remember his name if someone looks for it, but Nope, not doing grants. I'm trying toPablo Gonzalez:
think of the old school. I knew that Rosa brasDov Gordon:
is a different generation, but yeah, no, even, even Dean is probably the next generation. But but I don't know. anyway, so, so the, you know, that was, but, but there was so much hype, there's just so much hype. And I, and I also would question myself. You're like, well, you know, I, I'm not gonna do people really buy, buy, react to this, that people will respond to this. And it seemed they do because these people were apparently raking it in. And I, I said, look, I'm not going to do it. You know? I, I probably, I don't remember specific incidents, but I've probably dabbled a little bit like one down that road a little bit, because that was the model that I was seeing. If I did, I pulled back very quickly. I'm like, this is not me. I'm not going to do it. And I think that that's really important. It did. However, take me a number of years probably to develop my own voice, to become comfortable with saying things as I see them and recognizing, Hey, some people like it, some we won't and that's the way it's going to be. I mean, are you, I guess, finding your voice probably requires that you, you become willing to not be relevant to everybody. You know, when, when you're fully comfortable. I mean, I remember years ago I get a few unsubscribes, too emails are sent out. It would hurt. So, but don't, don't take and I had to get over that and now I, I, not only do I not care, I, I, I literally do not care because I know that it's part of it. it's like, there are people on my list who there's just not, for me, I'm not for them. And that's totally fine. They'll go somewhere else. And being, getting to that point where you're comfortable, where you realize I don't need everybody to like me. Well, that frees you up, that frees you up to say, well, okay, well, what do I want to say? And over the years, the more that I've kind of really become comfortable, just saying what I think. The more, I've had a reaction like yours, which is flattering. Thank you. We're getting an email out of the blue saying, Hey, I really love your stuff and I'm not going to repeat what you said, but it was, it was very flattering. Thank you. But, you know, and, and I appreciate it. I mean, who, who wouldn't, you know I think, you know, I, I do care that there are people who, who do like what I'm doing. I mean, there has to be somebody. So if not, you don't have any business, like yeah. But, but you don't have to worry about everybody. And when you're free to do that, you start to develop your voice. You've started to develop your own way of doing it. Another thing is that, that a lot of what people are teaching, you know, the experts in courses and gurus. And I think that it really creates in many people, not the confidence that they need, but it undermines the confidence that they need. Because they're saying they're teaching, this is how you build an autoresponder. This is how you write an email. This is how, and I've. No, I, it took me a number of years of studying enough of what other people were doing and experimenting myself to come to realize that hmm this is not how you do it. This is one way you could do it. And it builds on what I said before that there are so many ways to succeed. There, there are underlying principles, and I need to learn how to apply those principles in a way that feels right. For me, that fits my values. That talks to my dreams, my aspirations, and the more I would do that, the more I would get a better response from people, the more business would grow because people got a sense. And also like I've always felt that my job as a coach, as a consultant, as a teacher, as a trainer, it's not to teach people. Hey, I'll S I'll, I'll walk you through a specific processes. I'll walk you through a specific structure for an email, but at the same time, I don't want you to, I don't want you to mindlessly copy it. I want you to understand why does it work when it works? Why does it fail when it fails? One of the questions that people ask, which is the worst question to ask is what should I do? People ask, what should I do? What works? And the answer is that's the wrong question? The right question is when it works, why does it work when it fails? Why does it fail? Because if I can understand the underlying principles of when, when it works, why does it work when it fails? Why does it fail? I can then create my own method that works for me. And ultimately that's a big part of finding your voice as well. It's, it's not just what you say. It's how you get it across. It's what you're doing. an analogy that I've used for many years to explain this is that, you know, people are pushing tactics, you know, podcasting or webinars or evergreen webinars or Facebook ads when evergreen webinar, joint ventures, which I do a lot of and, you know, whatever it is, one day I realized they all work and they all fail. Like I said before, So, I mean, I know cause I've tried a bunch of them, myself and I saw them fail and a little success. And, but these other people are doing well with it. And these other people are failing with it. So it can't be the methodology. It can't be the tactic, every tactic works and every tactic, excuse me, every tactic fails. And I realized it's like, it was like a balloon. You know, if I have a blue balloon and a red balloon and I let go leave glue over the blue balloon and it falls to the ground and I let go with a red balloon and flies up to the sky. We're not going to conclude that blue balloons fall and red balloons fly. We're going to assume that the red balloon was full of helium and the blue balloon was full of hot air. It's the same thing with a marketing tactic. If it works, it was filled with marketing helium. If it fails was filled with marketing, hot air and marketing hot air is all about me. It's about everything. Except for those two things we talked about marketing helium is when you talk about a problem they have and don't want and, or a result they want, and don't have. That's how you get their attention and their interest.Pablo Gonzalez:
Amazing, man. Amazing, amazing. I echo so much with that, right? Like I, I say Russell Brunson, because to me, he is the, I think he's a genius. Right. But, but he's the epitome to me of the guy that tells everybody. This is what you write. Like he's got this like funnel scripts and there's blah, blah, blah script. And, and, and I remember when I started getting into the digital marketing world of having my partner being like, no, just copy this thing. This is the way that you do. And I'm like, God, I hate this. Like, it's like, I don't, I don't want to read this shit. So I don't want to have other people read it. This is not going to work for me. Right. Yeah. And then, and then the other part is the finding your voice piece for me. Right? Cause I'm, I'm very externally motivated of, right? Like I, I very much thrive on the appreciation and the love of other people. and for me it was the idea of really going into the fact that my love for the other is my superpower and, and, and diving into that being exclusive of whatever industry I was in. And like, I walked away from her $130,000 a year job offer to go do something way more risky. And it was the first time I ever kind of told my dad, Hey, With all due respect. I followed your advice up until now, but this is about more than just my next career move here. and the more I've been able to do that, the more, you know, now first I started talking about networking and building relationships, and now I've developed it into this kind of philosophy of community creation for business development. And, but the more, the more I've dove into finding my own voice the more I do. Attract the people that I want in my life. Right? Like I call it being a bat signal for the things that you want to attract. Or I like the more, the more you do that, the more it works. And for me, a lot of it has been social media, right? Like going live on Facebook. 30 days in a row for me was a very heavy iteration of finding my voice. But, but, but another one was a 90 day period when I was first starting my business, where I went to five different conferences and I met 450 people and I just iterated through, it was like, Hey, this is what I'm thinking about doing now. What about this? What about this? Right. So like, I find iteration to be at the source of it. And it sounds like in your journey, you've had a lot of iteration.Dov Gordon:
Absolutely. I think there was a well not, I think there definitely was a time when I thought that the goal would be to figure it out and then just keep it going and, you know, just like keep it going. So I don't have to work as hard. And if anybody hears this, let me save you a lot of wasted years. It's never going to be just figured out and running, whatever it is. There's always going to be some changes and tweaks, and you, if you commit to mastery and you figure out how to live your life and your business in a way that enables you to continue to get more and more masterful at some aspect of, of what you enjoy, what you're good at, then that's, that's what creates the consistency. Not, you know, I just need to figure out like, if I could just get it, it's like, I can just get it humming along then. Everything will be fine. There's no such thing. Can IPablo Gonzalez:
ask you man, just real curious. And then I want to go into my lightning round, which is just kind of a little bit, a little bit more casual, but from the outside, looking in, I think that you have really developed a mastery on marketing and I'm just, I'm curious, kind of what your. What's a good marketing book or a philosophy, you know, like what have you dove into that that has really helped you or your marketing and, or psychological, and now, you know, whatever, whatever tool you're using to sharpen your emotional intelligence marketing skill, I would love to know a little bit about that.Dov Gordon:
Interesting. I I've read a lot over the years, so it's, you know, I'd say my early teachers were Jay Abraham and and Dan Kennedy. I was trying to open up my Kindle here as well. you know, first, really a lot, Jay Abraham, because that was, and, you know, and at the time his stuff was, you know, very high priced But there's, there's a book that he put out at least one book, I think two commercially published books that are, you know, reasonable prices, like how, how to get from how to get everything. You, you, I forgot what it's called, but definitely worth reading his stuff because he just lays out some, some really solid foundational, foundational materials. in terms of copywriting, there is let's see here. let me see here. There was some, I've read it a number of years ago, but I felt like it was, yeah. Michael Masterson has some really good copywriting here. The architecture of persuasion is an excellent book on a sales letter. Great leads. Also Michael Masterson, who was a pen name for, I forgot his name. I forgot his real name, but he's you know, good. And, and he probably has other books that might be good, but, but those two arc the architecture of persuasion and great leads. There are excellent. Awesome. So that's definitely a good place to start.Pablo Gonzalez:
Am I right in thinking that you've like, when I, when I hear the structure of some of your stories, you're very much adhere to the hero's journey. When you're talking about examples of your, of your, of your clients. Have you read someone like that, Donald Miller building a StoryBrand stuff? Is that, is that in yourDov Gordon:
consciousness? I haven't, I've heard about Donald Miller. I have not read his book. I'm not familiar with his approach, but I just heard about it cause it probably he's doing a good job marketing it.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah. Yeah. He's doing a real good job, but like, I think I'm going to follow that approach, right? Like my whole relationship. So my, my formula right now has. A lot of like, I, I like the messaging of Donald Miller. Like I find that the way that he structured again, it sounds like you sew it. So to me, it's not like one universal truth, but the way that he constructs it, so that it sounds in a way that it lands is good. And then the concept that the discipline of category design this book called play bigger, that is, you know, how to design a category and be a category King. To me, those are my two favorite kind of Packaging that that I want to follow and what I'm doing. And I'm going to follow kind of like that formula of Donald Miller, where he has a high priced agency. Then he put out a methodology that he teaches to teach. Do you know that he charged us to teach it? And then on top of now he's certifying the, the whatever. And you know, like, I think that's a really good, a good way to scale.Dov Gordon:
Sorry, I'm listening. I started listening to play bigger a while back, but I didn't get very far. You, you, you're saying it's a, I should keep going, man. IPablo Gonzalez:
literally just the first book, I just finished it for the second time in under 12 months. I've never done that with a book.Dov Gordon:
All right. I'll I'll give it another shot. I don't remember what I remember why I just stopped, but, okay.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, It also includes, I don't know how much you're interested in like big organizational framework buildings and launching, right? Like, to me, there's, there's a part of that that attracts me as well. But as a marketing philosophy, the idea of marketing the problem to then be known as the guy that has the solution makes very, very intuitive sense to me and that's core methodology of that, right? Like the, of designing a category and the idea at the end of it, it's just being different, creates more leverage than being better. Right.Dov Gordon:
You reminded me of a book that I read even earlier probably than Jay Abraham, which is the 22 immutable laws of marketing. Have you read that? Not sure where it is., but over there he talks about being first in the mind. and how you have to, you have to dominate a category, you know, when he talks about how. you know, if, was it Avis? I mean, the classic example of Avis was try harder or whatever. Yeah. Right. So there, they realized that they were not going to beat hurts. That hurts his game. So they carved out their own category, which is we try harder. I mean, it's something like that. Again, there were 22 immutable laws. I might be mixing up some of the laws, but that's a classic. That is a classic definitely worth reading too.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah. So, so play bigger is like the, the fi the last iteration of what sounds like that, then there was positioning, right? Like there was a book called positioning that also is very, very keen on that play bigger is like the modern day playbookDov Gordon:
of all that I think. Okay. Positioning I might've been mixing up the 22 immutable laws and positioning. I believe it was the same author Al rice, I believe.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah. And at the end of the day, right at all, to me, all these things come from Robert Cialdini's influence book, right? Like the seven laws of influence that I find really, really fascinating, but like, that's kinda the, that's theDov Gordon:
foundation of my work. Well, your book must have an extra law mine at six.Pablo Gonzalez:
Well, yeah, I paid extra for it, man. All right. You ready for theDov Gordon:
lightning round? we'll find out, right?Pablo Gonzalez:
What is your favorite restaurant? Where is it? And what is yourDov Gordon:
order? Oh, boy. well, I haven't been in the restaurant in a year now. Well, well maybe I have an, a only, there's a restaurant in town here. I live in Israel. It's called cafe Ramon, which is nice. Yeah. They brought up the FePablo Gonzalez:
a ongoing travel guide that I'm building from all my, from, from, you know, a little bit of value for people. Right. Where in Israel isDov Gordon:
it? it's in a city called So they have they're also in Jerusalem.Pablo Gonzalez:
Okay, cool. They tenon Israel and it's called what?Dov Gordon:
Hmm. It's called cafe Ramon.Pablo Gonzalez:
Well, all right. Now I'm going to check it out next time. I'm in town.Dov Gordon:
Uh, what uh, you know, when you're coming,Pablo Gonzalez:
but by the way, you know, Isar and our Isar is like, dude, we gotta have a trip to Israel. Right? Like we just launched this partnership. So there, Israel is in my, is in my 12 to 24 month window of I'm going to go there.Dov Gordon:
All right. Very good. I mean, I sure hope we open up soon. Yeah,Pablo Gonzalez:
me too. Me too. All right. What content are you most into right now? This can be, you know, what book are you most into? This could be what podcasts are you most listening to? This could be what, like Netflix does yours series you're into like, what, what are you, what are you consuming these days?Dov Gordon:
I'm in, you know, I'm listening, I'm reading a number of books and you know, I'm actually curious to see. What people are writing about story telling, you know, it's something that I've kind of dabbled in over the years, but it's not something I've ever studied in a real structured way. So you know, I've got a few books on, on story that I'm just reading through to see, see what I could learn. It's probably something that I'm interested in, in doing a little more in the coming year. Yeah.Pablo Gonzalez:
Very cool. What is something that you were sure about in your twenties that you no longer believe?Dov Gordon:
something I was sure about in my twenties that I no longer believe I don't know about this twenties, but I used to, I used to think that that the people on TV or the experts actually knew more than I did. And I can tell you without a doubt that I now know. With certainty that experts are as flawed as anybody. The people who have the spotlight are as flawed as anybody, perhaps more flood in many cases. And let's just say buyer beware, and I'm no conspiracy theorist, but you know, I just, there's, there's a, there's a lot of mess out there, you know, and, and I don't claim to know everything that's going on. Like, we, we, we, we cannot know what's going on behind the scenes, but you know, we just had the last two weeks with the, was it this wall street bets thing. And I don't, I don't, I don't know what's really going on. I don't know the truth as to why Robin had shut down or not. I, I don't know, but I do know that. There are definitely some, a small number of people who have a very big interest that counters the interest of the everyday people. And we probably don't even know their names, but for whatever reason, they, they, they have, they have power and they're looking to use it. and, and the everyday person, the little people I, I think a lot of people have their bubbles burst lately. Yeah. Yeah.Pablo Gonzalez:
Agreed man. Listen, I think, I think that's an overall trend, right? Like the. The internet is the giant spotlight on all the shady parts of everything that is happening, right? Like there is no more secrets. So, so I think bubbles are bursting systematically, right? Like we're in a new era.Dov Gordon:
Well, I, and I don't think that it's necessarily progress. I think that the fact that so few people, that's such a small number of companies have so much control over, over what is, you know, what we hear and what we are allowed to say, and this is not progress. You know, this is not progress.Pablo Gonzalez:
I got you, man. I got you. So interesting note on that Robin hood piece. Cause I've been super into that story also. Cause I like anything that's like a disruptive trend, right? Brokerages. Actually. So when you buy and sell a stock, the actual money for that transaction takes about 48 hours to move through the pipes. So these brokerages that now are seeing this exposure to, if there's something that's going freaking bananas, because of something that you can't explain, they now have this new liability, you know, this like new exposure to, we got to shut it down. Cause we may not be able to cover this float if something is that drastic. And it had just never happened before, because there wasn't this high concentration of power in chat.Dov Gordon:
So that's what the CEO of Robin hood said to Elon Musk on his clubhouse interview two nights ago. and I was listening to that and I couldn't see anybody's faces cause there's audio, but you know, Elon will heard that and he's it sounded like he didn't know, you know, like maybe, and that, that makes it they'll. My attitude is maybe. But then that just, that still shows that the system is rigged against the little guy, correct. I mean, because where the big companies stopped from buying them, it seems not just the regular little guy. So however, whatever the excuse is, whatever the justification. it's I think that a lot of people would just come to see, and this is just one of many that are we really living in a Republic where laws are, what govern, I'll put that out as a question versusPablo Gonzalez:
a corporatocracy. Is that what you'reDov Gordon:
saying? Or versus a powerful interests controlled by a very small group of people and they will twist the legal system any way they, they want, I, you know, when I used to hear things like that, I used to not. Yeah. I used to think, well, that's not true. I mean, people want, people want to hold up, hold the law because that's what our whole society is based on. And we've got to have equal protection for everybody. It doesn't matter who it is. It doesn't matter if they say what I want them to say or what I believe or not. We have to, the number one thing is to uphold the law. We have to at least strive for equal protection under the law. Everybody's got to have an equal say or an equal ability to say it. whether we like it or not. And I think that's taken a big blow in the last few years.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah, I totally agree, man. I totally agree. I like that. We went down a little rabbit hole here, man. Uh,Dov Gordon:
dove to foster some listeners to,Pablo Gonzalez:
Hey, you got to accept that. Not everybody likes what you got to say. I find your voice. before I ask you a last question, then I'm going to link, you know, I've got all the links to all your stuff. I'm going to put it all in the show notes. Write your website, profitable relationships, your telegram, your Facebook page. your profile, your LinkedIn, your Twitter, your YouTube, your Instagram. Well, this is, this is your moment. So well, what's the one. What's the one place you want somebody that just our friend, you know, she just heard you. She knows you're brilliant. She wants to find out more about you what's so what's the one place you want to send him orDov Gordon:
her profitable relationships.com is a place that they can go and, and get some free training on how to become what I call an under the radar industry leader. And you can actually start to do it. If you are somebody who has been using relationship, building, networking referrals, as a way of growing your business, you can actually start to turn that into a revenue source, a revenue stream. It, you know, it might just be 50, a hundred, $200,000 a year, but for a lot of people, that's, that's significant. And that's something else that I realized over time is that a lot of people are not interested in multi seven figures and scaling a lot of people. They just want a good mid six figure, upper six figure income being paid by great clients to do great work, make a great income. and I realized that that's me. I'm not interested in building a big organization. I'm not interested in having a whole big team. and that's, that's totally fine.Pablo Gonzalez:
Yeah. Quality of life. Yeah. All right, man, last question. Where do you find community?Dov Gordon:
Well, I mean, I, I lead a community, right? My JV man, which I've been leading for 10 years. And if not for that, I have no idea what the answer would be because that, I mean, the people in that group are good friends. and most of them, I never met in person, but we've done more to help each other, than many people that I know in person and it's just, it's been a beautiful community and, and we just keep growing. Fortunately, it's It's and it's not just about business, you know, we've, we've had people get sick and pass on. we've had a member who, you know, his son was undergoing heart surgery and, you know, we all just chipped in and somebody who was near near the hospital in London, we sent a bunch of, we paypalled money to him and he stuffed an envelope full of cash and brought it over to the hospital. And so, so he and his wife could go out, take some time off bringing a babysitter and just, you know it was just it's, it's really, there's genuine caring. And I think that, that goes to the two main things that you do as the leader of an alchemy network. Number one is curation. And number two is conversation. You've got to curate. You gotta uh, you don't want everybody uh, you have to pick the right people. And the way I say it is, I'm looking for people who are. the people I'm looking for, you know, I'm not enamored by celebrity. I'm not enamored by that. I don't have anything against it per se, but there's gotta be more. What I look for is mastery and generosity. And that's what I look for when I'm looking to curate, who, who am I going to have in my, in my networks. And when you curate for mastery in generosity, people who are striving to master their craft to get better and better at what they do, and they genuinely generous. I mean, you asked me where I get community right there.Pablo Gonzalez:
I love it, man. I look for mastery in generosity. That's like that, that, that hit me like a ton man, dove, you know, there is a, there's a line in the Alchemist that says the universe conspires in favor of those following their dreams, man. And I. You know, I think about that line. And I think that the universe conspired for me to become friends with Richard at some point to then randomly tune into his podcast and then listened to you to then reach out to you. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate this relationship. Like I, I, what, I, I don't know. I don't know a lot of people that are really proving to the world that community creation is the future of business development. And I think, I think it is man. Like, I, I think we talk about this future where everything is getting commoditized, attention, demand offer is all getting commoditized. And the only thing that's gonna save us is the ability to understand that somebody across from you is a value, not a, not a threat. And I think that you are very elegantly, you know, you have a very, very elegant solution for that, that, that I think based on your communication skills is going to change a lot of lives, man. And I see you as an ally, so I'm really, really honored to have had you on my stage, man. Thanks for coming on.Dov Gordon:
Thank you. I don't know what else to say, but thank you. Appreciate it. I'm honored.