Next Level University

#1561 - Two Types Of Vulnerability

• Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

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Have you ever faced the discomfort of voicing your insecurities or the challenge of delivering feedback that could ruffle feathers? In this episode, hosts Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros explore the realms of vulnerability from two distinct perspectives: the internal struggle of acknowledging our deficiencies and the external challenge of providing constructive feedback. They delve into the delicate dance of maintaining vulnerability in business and personal relationships, aiming to give you the insight to handle these sensitive interactions gracefully. Embracing vulnerability and the art of constructive feedback can lead to profound personal growth and more meaningful relationships. It's a journey that requires courage, honesty, and a commitment to continuous self-improvement. As we continue to navigate this path, let us do so with compassion, understanding, and a deep appreciation for the transformative power of open, heartfelt communication.

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Show notes:
(1:41) Sensitive communication with grace
(3:03) Versions of vulnerability
(3:57) Taking and giving ownership
(10:12) Significance of intention behind words
(12:32) Kim thanks Kevin for going above and beyond in helping launch the Peaceful Productivity podcast.
(13:18) Coaching and Therapy
(14:30) Warning
(16:03) Assessment and anecdote
(18:47) Which side of the coin?
(19:56) Keep it honest and vulnerable
(21:36) Outro

Send a text to Kevin and Alan!

Speaker 1:

Next level nation. Welcome back to another episode of next level university, where we help you level up your life, your love, your health and your wealth. We hope you enjoyed yesterday's episode, episode number 1560. Things that don't seem productive but are today for episode number 1561 two different types of vulnerability. I'm not saying there are only two types of vulnerability, but I think we're really only going to talk about chew today in this relatively quick episode. So Tara and I had a conversation about why vulnerability was so hard, and afterwards I was reflecting and I was thinking to myself Me being vulnerable, about the way that I am feeling. Is it really that hard, unless I'm afraid I'm gonna hurt the other person? One of the hardest things for me, alan, is when. So we've had times in the past where you'd be late and I wouldn't, say anything.

Speaker 2:

No, never the reason.

Speaker 1:

The reason I wouldn't say anything is because that, for me, was super vulnerable. It was super vulnerable for me to say hey, man, I don't like the fact, or it makes me feel less than, or we're not able to get everything done because you're late. That type of vulnerability is the hard one for you. But you ask me all the time, hey, man, where you're screwing up, and it's like oh, this, this for sure. Or, hey, have you updated your ppt? No, it's been weeks, a couple weeks probably. Have you updated?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I just I just try to say it for me that's not really vulnerable. I'm not. I don't really think through that too much. There's no part of me that wants to withhold that. But when it comes to giving other people feedback that will make them feel uncomfortable, that is the most challenging version of vulnerability for me.

Speaker 1:

So, my thought in this episode. Right, my thought was we could talk about what are those two versions of vulnerability? One is Opening up yourself to uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, feedback. The other one is opening up somebody else to uncomfortable thoughts, feelings or feedback. That second one I do not like that first one. It sucks, but not as bad as the second one.

Speaker 2:

I think Strong work, by the way, on coming up with this.

Speaker 1:

I appreciate that. I'm telling you go, going back to last episode, when I have time to think things are different, I can. Just I'm telling you sitting around, twiddle in my thumbs, it's real good for the not quite it is yeah.

Speaker 2:

I I really appreciate this because I'm with you. I don't feel like it's super vulnerable. I Let me let me reframe this because sometimes it is. If it's something I'm really insecure about, then it is really vulnerable to look in the mirror.

Speaker 1:

That's fair.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but if it's something that I'm not super insecure about, it's like yeah, no, I'm jeffin, I'm messing up. I'll speak about kev. Kev, you take ownership really well, I appreciate that. Yeah, you're welcome, but you don't give ownership.

Speaker 2:

Well not at all and and it's I'm the same way. I think that all of us probably are good at one or the other. I'm awful. In my opinion, it is super vulnerable.

Speaker 2:

So we did a relationship talks virtual event last night and there's so many things that went beautifully, but there's many things every single time. We're 30 events in and we have all these categories content, story, engagement, the chat, pre post, all these different things that we we rate ourselves on email, you and I, to try to get better. We want to facilitate the best virtual event experience possible, the best learning and growth experience is possible. That's who we want to be, and so, in order to do that, we get a look in the mirror and I think of it like a 360 degree mirror. Imagine you walk into a room with a full-length mirror and there's 360 degrees and you can see your back, you can see your front, and the analogy I use is ah, I didn't realize I had cellulite there, or oh, I didn't realize I was that out of shape, or I didn't realize. A lot of people don't like that and I understand why. Right, we don't like to look at all our flaws. Everyone has over criticizing of self To some extent behind the scenes, and I know a lot of people struggle with that. So it is vulnerable to look in the mirror in a place that you're insecure. But where I really suck to my point is what you said of giving other people feedback, which is ironic because I'm a coach and that's my job. But when I put the coaching hat on with Emilia in my intimate relationship, okay, I'll just wanna share this with everybody.

Speaker 2:

Long-term relationships, statistically speaking, don't succeed. What? 60% of the time, maybe even more than that, if you look at at least the US statistics. But even globally okay, I know it's high. And then, on top of that, the number of businesses that fail is, I'm pretty sure it's 94% of all businesses are gone within a 10-year period. So if you take now, take that and combine them. So Emilia and I decided not only do we want to be with each other forever and to have the most amazing intimate relationship possible and help others do the same, but we're also gonna go into business together. Okay, so the moment you go into business with someone and Kevin and I can attest to this because we're business partners for the last six and a half- years there's challenges that you don't have to face with other people, right?

Speaker 2:

It's not like Kev, you have to go to your second cousin and be like hey, man, I don't know if you should be spending that kind of money. Man, right, you don't need to have those conversations because, whatever, spend what you want, it's not tied to me. Now, imagine doing that with an intimate relationship. So what's my point of all this? I have to give Emilia difficult feedback, way beyond what most intimate couples do, and vice versa. We're tied together in business, we're tied together in finance, we have a home together, and so I'm not good I'm really good at taking ownership, I think. Usually I take over ownership. Usually it's like, yeah, this is my bad, like yesterday, for example. It's like I really need to take more responsibility for the success of these events. I'm sorry I only had an hour and a half worth of time. I should have said this in advance. Blah, blah, blah. That's not super vulnerable for me. What is really vulnerable is me saying Emilia in all honesty this, this and this did not land. There's no way.

Speaker 2:

She's brilliant, she's unbelievably intelligent, she studied Aristotle and all the philosophers and she's just amazing. But what she doesn't understand is that not everyone studied this stuff since they were 11 years old, like we did. Boundaries, all the different types of boundaries. There's three types of boundaries there's rigid, there's porous and there's healthy, and then there's eight areas of boundaries there's time, there's expectations and all this stuff and stuff. It's like it's really complex stuff and as someone who studies this all the time, it's kind of like me with math. I just go brrrrr with numbers and she says, alan, no one knows what you're talking about and I'm like, really, this is like easy stuff. So here's my point.

Speaker 2:

I think everyone is good at taking feedback or giving it and unfortunately, the people who are good at taking feedback find the people who are good at giving it. And the people who are good at giving it don't look in the mirror often and I'm gonna call it goddamn spade of spade right now. I have been around some people that give feedback like it's their goddamn job and they never look in the mirror. Those people are my least favorite types of people the people who go around dishing feedback to everybody and they project high standards onto everyone else but they have no standards for themselves. I, unintentionally and unconsciously, growing up, did the opposite. I take on all the feedback myself and I give none of it and luckily, as I have aged and emotionally matured, I've actually been able to give some feedback as well as receive it.

Speaker 1:

It's definitely a challenge giving, unless the person asks for it directly and then I think it's a little bit easier. But even then it still sucks. But I've had a really good. You've been training wheels for me because I've been giving you feedback for years not well and probably not all of it, but I think over time we've gotten to the place where we're able to do that. I wonder if it's a valuable perspective to have that if you struggle giving feedback, it would probably benefit you to find someone who is really good at receiving it and just make sure that it's a line. Yeah, it's not a bad relationship. You're not just with or surrounding yourself with that person. So you can practice giving feedback. But I think it's very coincidental that I suck at giving feedback and you're really good at taking it and you struggled to give feedback and I'm pretty good at taking it.

Speaker 2:

I think that's a beautiful thing. It's helped us tremendously, but I think one of the reasons we struggled to succeed with people in the past is because we're really good at taking ownership, but not necessarily giving difficult feedback to others.

Speaker 1:

But what's interesting is we're now coaches, so we get paid to give feedback, and when you're the coach, though, it's different because you're, I think, the difference, though, alan, is you were given a lot of feedback, and most of it wasn't true, so there's a difference between people wanting to give you feedback, but you also being able to understand whether it's true or not.

Speaker 2:

It's tough to know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it depends on what your relationship is. I feel like it. I don't know when I get it. I get a message from a client yesterday and they were frustrated with some of the things going on. The first thing I said in the email was and they're amazing, and maybe this is why they're super balanced. They literally said in the email I hope the tone of this email doesn't come off as angry. I'm not angry, I just want to express my truth. It's amazing.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for that Nice, Because in my mind I assume you hate me. Automatically I assume you hate me.

Speaker 2:

But I sent them a message back and I All is lost, all is lost.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for the thoughtful message. I appreciate it. I appreciate it very much by the day. We're going to do better and we'll use this feedback as an opportunity to do better. But there are certain people who I might not say it like that to, Because it's like what you're saying is true You're giving me feedback, but it is true. It is a true piece of feedback and that's why it sucks more anyway versus I've talked on here before about people who have given feedback where it's like this is just not true. If I could look at all the proof, this feedback is more you trying to get out of your own stuff than it is to actually give me feedback. So I think maybe I just have a different relationship with receiving feedback because I probably haven't received as much as you over the years, so I haven't had to sift through or I haven't been gaslit with certain pieces of feedback or whatever it may be. It's definitely difficult.

Speaker 2:

This is actually a conversation about feedback and vulnerability. At the end of the day, when you hire a coach, you're hiring a coach to give you feedback so that you can improve, so that you can grow Therapists same deal, similar deal. I should say not same. I think coaching is more aspirational, goal oriented. I think therapy is more healing and both have both. I've often talked about that, but it's almost like the feedback that you get is other people's opinions. It's not accurate necessarily.

Speaker 2:

One of the things that's been really frustrating for me is that a lot of people who have tried to give me feedback don't actually know what they're talking about. We've been getting podcast advice all the time of you shouldn't do this or you should do that. These are people that are way behind us. It's just very arrogant of them to I had one person reached out and said hey, you should really have more regular people on your show. I understand your perspective, but no, we disagree, and I think sometimes you get feedback on an unconscious desire. That's an overcorrection for insecurity, and I'll go brief about this because I don't want to make this a sob story. But if someone is really unconsciously insecure about you outgrowing them or you being successful, or you shining bright or you being empowered, and they think you're arrogant or whatever it is. They think they might knock you down just to feel better about themselves. That happens all the time. Just just be aware that that happens all the time. People are constantly Not everybody, you know, not everybody, but there's a, there's a percentage of the population that Does knock other people down to feel better about themselves, and I just don't want anyone to fall fall victim to that anymore, because the feedback that you're getting is absolute bullshit. Sometimes it's like that's not even remotely accurate. This is. It's insane that you would think that I. I Just don't want you to internalize it, because a lot of my clients they've been absolutely shit on and All's I'm really doing is undistorting all that. I'm just saying no, no, no. You're. That's there. They're insecure about you. You're amazing and you're beautiful and you're I just I Told Kevin this the other day.

Speaker 2:

I said I don't feel like I've ever been someone who, like, knocks people down. I've always lifted people up. That's one thing I can say is I've always tried to to put wind in everyone's sails and Help them achieve their goals and dreams. I've definitely defended myself at times and knocked people down when I felt attacked, that's for sure, and sometimes poorly and other times in a lined way.

Speaker 2:

But Assess for yourself what is more vulnerable. Is it more vulnerable to go in the mirror and look and look at the 360 degrees and say, you know, I don't really like my nose that way and I don't really like my hair that way and oh, I've got some cellulite there? Like, is that really vulnerable for you and I think for all of us when we're insecure? Yeah, okay, for me that's the less vulnerable side of the coin. The more vulnerable side of the coin is hey, I Really want to help you. I actually care enough to tell you this, even though no one else cares enough to tell you this. And I'm not saying this to knock you down. I'm actually saying this to lift you up. But, like this, this and this fyi and and Kev, I think, one story I know we got to go but one story about your that your hair.

Speaker 2:

I think that's a perfect example of who I am, because I just wanted to help you if I could. I Almost.

Speaker 1:

I got my haircut yesterday. I almost asked my my barber. I literally was, I was going to ask Alan and I were in when we're Pittsburgh, pittsburgh, pittsburgh, pennsylvania, the Berg the.

Speaker 1:

Berg and our Airbnb had this. If you live in Pittsburgh you know these. We stayed in like a row house and the driveway was Wild Like a world-class driver to get in and out of this driveway. But we were on our way to the speech slash Presentation, I guess, is probably the best way to put it and Alan said hey, man, and I tell you something in the spirit of truth. He said you know, I'm trying to be as truthful as possible and I was yeah, man, what's up? He said I, you have any concern about your thinning, or I don't think you said you're thinning, I said. He said you have any concern about thinning hair and or going bald? And I said no, no, not really. Why, what's up? He said well, I haven't seen you with your hair gelled in a minute. I think it's thinning. And he's like I'm sorry if that's uncomfortable. I was like no man, you're good. He said I just want you, if it's something you value, to have the opportunity to maybe potentially put a stop to it and there's a lot you could do.

Speaker 2:

That's a lot you could do to to prolong.

Speaker 1:

I still don't know if it's true. I have no idea. Yeah, I'm gonna. Maybe next time I'll ask my barber. Honestly, I don't either.

Speaker 2:

I just seemed it was something my, my intuition picked up on and my brain calculated and I was like you know, I got to tell him because what if he does want to change it? It's rogue, it's all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, well, for me that that was not a very vulnerable thing to hear. It's like that. Maybe I don't know, I'm not really. I'm not really too concerned about it. Maybe I'm concerned less than I should be, who knows? That's definitely a possibility.

Speaker 2:

I'm not really. I'm not really. Does Taryn like your hair? You know it's. Yeah, I should have asked her.

Speaker 1:

But that was very uncomfortable for Alan.

Speaker 1:

I was very uncomfortable conversation for For Alan to have with me. So my next of the nugget would be this which side of the coin are you on and what can you do to practice just doing a little bit more? Even if somebody says, hey, I want feedback, you could literally just start by saying, okay, I wanna give you some constructive feedback, but just understand that it's really hard for me to give other people feedback. I do feel like I might need a little bit of permission. Just say what my truth is, because my fear is hurting you, and then you looking at me differently because of it, something like that. It's just one of those things of hey, can I have a vulnerable share.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if everything I say is true, because a lot of it might be coming from fear, but this is the way I'm feeling right now. You're just painting a picture and expectations of what the conversation could look like. I think this is a very, very important thing, probably underspoken about. I don't know if I've ever heard a conversation about this specifically. I think it's very valuable. So do what you can to figure out what side you're on and then again, small shift. You don't have to solve this or fix this overnight, excuse me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's great self-awareness. The vulnerability is always connected to insecurity, lack of certainty, and if you are insecure about something, it is vulnerable to share that, or to look in the mirror, so to speak. But if someone else is insecure, or you think they might be, you might also be insecure about giving them feedback. I am more insecure about other people's insecurity at this stage in my life than I am about my own, and that's just good self-awareness for me. Maybe that's true for you as well, maybe it's not, maybe it's the other way around for you.

Speaker 2:

And the very last thing I'll say is you know those people who say, oh, you couldn't offend me if you tried, it's like listen, that's ego. And I had that said to me recently from someone who I could easily offend, and I actually said to them. I said listen, I playfully said that's not true, I could definitely offend you, but I won't. Because it's like oh, don't worry, you could never offend me if you tried. It's like, trust me, I definitely could. You're just, that's just a lie. You're just puffer fishing right now. Stop.

Speaker 2:

You know, I just can't stand people who say that when it's like what do you want me to try to offend you? So anyways, I have a lot of junk with this, but, at the end of the day, vulnerability. The vulnerable thing to say would be I'm not offended, but thank you for being concerned. That's an honest energy versus oh you know, kev, you could never offend me. I'm the man you know like, just can that. If you have people like that, just trust me. You're doing yourself a favor when you sail away. So that's it.

Speaker 1:

That's all I've got Sail away Tomorrow for episode number 1,562, how asking the right questions will change your life. We actually did this episode, alan, in 2018, I think so, and I think it was however many years to the day. It was either 2018 or 2019. I think it was 2018. So I was looking back at old episodes and I said let's do a remix of that episode, a new version of that episode, because I still think that is one of the most valuable things in the world asking the right questions can change your life. So that is what we're gonna talk about tomorrow. As always, we love you, we appreciate you, grateful for each and every one of you and NLU. We don't have fans, we have family. We will talk to you all tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

Keep it honest and vulnerable. Next level nation Boom, oh God.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

Oh.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, yeah, no.

People on this episode

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Alan Lazaros

Host
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Kevin Palmieri

Host