Next Level University

#1610 - Do You Ever Overcome The Fear Of Judgment?

• Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

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In today’s episode, Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros share a raw and honest account of confronting the fear of judgment head-on, not just as a content creator but in all walks of life. They journey through the murky emotions tied to feeling misunderstood rather than just judged and reveal how their battles with imposter syndrome have been a testament to growth, not inadequacy. It’s a candid exploration of how our relationship with judgment evolves, proving that the sentiment might change but never entirely disappear, constantly pushing us to grow.

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Show notes:
(2:11) Darknight of the soul
(4:15) Why start with self-critique?
(8:40) Internal family systems
(15:46) Understanding your relationship with judgment
(17:07) Regaining confidence and self-belief
(19:48) The importance of community with collective growth
(22:50) Finding confidence amidst criticism is a challenge we all face
(27:11) Outro

Send a text to Kevin and Alan!

Kevin:

Next level nation. Welcome back to another episode of next level university, where we help you level up your life, your love, your health and your wealth. We hope you enjoyed yesterday's episode, episode number one thousand six hundred nine. You don't have to change everything About yourself today for episode number one thousand six hundred and ten. Do you ever overcome the fear of Judgment?

Kevin:

So it's big news in the podcasting world that Joe Rogan just signed what I believe is a 250 million dollar deal with Spotify. So I said that's a really good thing to create some content on as a podcast coach and a podcast consultant and a Podcaster who talks about podcasting. So I created something for tiktok and I said I'm gonna throw this out here. I think we'll get some good feedback on it. And last night was one of those Just dark night of the souls I was. I had a rough day, some stuff happened business stuff. It was just rough. It was a rough night for me.

Kevin:

I ordered Taco Bell and I was a guy Let me check on my, let me check on my tiktok, see how it's doing to level of impact we're having to the world. And there was a. So the piece of content basically was Joe Rogan makes a lot of money from ads and sponsorships. Most of us are just not gonna do it. That's just not how most small podcasts Make money. Here are a couple ideas on how you can actually make money with a podcast and somebody comments on it and what they said. How'd that go?

Alan:

It wasn't bad.

Kevin:

It's not bad. It's not a terrible comments. Not, it was nothing, I guess too crazy, but this is what somebody commented how are you gonna give advice on something you're struggling to do? And I, when that happens, I get this little pit in my stomach. It's like I really want to respond and say something. Not mean, I don't. I don't want to respond and start an argument, but I have two top 100 podcasts and I've been doing this full time now for six years and this is how I make my living, so I I know how to. What do you mean? I'm not struggling to do this at all. We're crushing it. We're doing really, really good. We have a successful business 1600 episodes, never miss an episode.

Kevin:

It's happening that it's happening.

Alan:

This is big for me. People are not believing in you, and you're getting triggered because you're, so I just feel so, see right now, like I have the results you're telling me, I don't have that's what what's going? On, isn't it so wild? But yeah, and, by the way, this other person Probably isn't nearly as successful.

Kevin:

They're not even a podcaster, they're, they're, yeah, maybe a 13 year old human. I.

Alan:

Know this is a selfish moment, kev, that has been my life.

Kevin:

I can imagine 100%, I can imagine, but I do want to make sure we stick to the original point of the episode. Mm-hmm, I don't know if you ever really really overcome the fear of judgment, because it's better than it's ever been. It's better, I mean. I looked at it and I said I really want to say something back and I was like, okay, why, why do I need to be right and why does he need to know? I, whatever, let me have my Taco Bell and and I won't worry about it. And then today, when we were talking, I said, oh, that would probably. Oh, you said, that would probably make a Really good episode to talk about judgment.

Kevin:

I think what happens is when you first start something and this probably won't resonate with you at all, alan, this, this is just an experience I've had when you first start something, the reason you're afraid of judgment is because you're already judging what you're doing, because you Don't know if it's gonna work out as you do something. More and more and more and more that judgment. The fear of judgment that I have now is more the fear of misunderstanding than judgment, because that wasn't that was a level of judgment, but it's more. It's more the misunderstanding. You just don't know. You don't know what you're, what you said, you just yeah, it was a very ignorant comment, yeah.

Kevin:

I think, I think. But that's the difference. If I had just started a podcast and let's say it helped one client, and Then I posted that and somebody commented, I might have that moment of ah what if they're right though I Don't, I don't really know what I'm doing that would hurt. That's just a different. It just hits you in a different place from from a place of judgment. So, just like I don't know if imposter syndrome ever really goes away, I think you understand it better and again, for me at least, this is a maybe it's a me experience. I don't know. I don't know if it ever goes away. I think you develop a different relationship with it and then you connect. If I don't have imposter syndrome, that probably also means I'm not growing, so maybe imposter syndrome isn't as bad as I once thought it was. I think you just Continue to evolve your relationship with judgment as you get better and better at something. I think your Relationship with the judgment you receive is just completely, completely different.

Alan:

I, for a long time, but it never goes away. Yeah, it's different, but it doesn't go away.

Kevin:

I don't, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't, maybe it does in certain stuff. If you do it long enough, there's probably. I used to. When I used to do a lot of boxing at the gym and I was very new to that, I would get insecure about what people thought. Like, am I going to end up a meme? Like me shadow boxing in front of the mirror. Somebody would take a video of me and I'm going to end up a meme. And now, like today, I was shadow boxing at the gym after I finished my workout and I don't think about that at all. It's almost like, if anything, I actually want to be seen because I think I've crossed the chasm of above average. So if I'm going to get judged, it's probably going to be a positive judgment, not a negative one. I don't know, I just wonder if there's something in it.

Alan:

Yeah, but what you don't know is that the better and better and better you get, the more you're going to get hated on. For no reason, ignorant comments like that.

Kevin:

Yeah, but the comment is only ignorant because of the actual success behind the scenes. So it's almost like that's the reason. I'm just upset that they don't actually know. Not that they judged the video because it wasn't like hey, you're ugly, like well, I do have two giant pimples in my forehead right now.

Kevin:

I don't know if I would be upset about that If somebody reached out and said, hey, why don't you cover up your pimples before you do a video? Like I don't care, because I don't care that much. I'm on camera every single day Like this is just who I am, but you do care about your competence. Yeah, yeah, and I care about the fact that I don't post content I don't know stuff about. There's a reason I don't you know. I don't post certain content because that's just not who I am.

Alan:

It's so interesting and I know that we were planning on doing an episode at some point about this, so I won't go too deep. There's something called internal family systems. Many people have heard me talking about it. My therapist her name is Carol she does IFS work with me and it's really powerful and it's a whole thing. So you can research this.

Alan:

But there's something called an exile, which is a part of you that holds pain and insecurity and trauma, and there's different types of exiles. It's basically a part of you that you've, you're hiding. We all have a part of us that we're just trying to keep below the water, so to speak. I don't want anyone to know that I'm insecure about X, y, z, and maybe I don't even want myself to know. So I'm pretending I'm not insecure when I really am and I think maturity, emotional maturity is just being like, wow, I really am insecure about that.

Alan:

And then, what's ironic, like I used to hate my nose and then I started talking about it and now I don't like, I don't dislike it like I used to. It's like this weird thing how that works. But I remember there was a time where I used to purposely wear a hat because I didn't want the lack of symmetry. I broke my nose and it was like a whole thing, but I had trauma around that because it was bad. Bad break and blood everywhere is awful, but anyway. So it was right before graduation day too. That really sucked. Yeah, I graduated the next day. My nose was on the other side of my face.

Alan:

That sucked really so my graduation party that night. Yeah, I was really bad, but anyways. So I had all this pain and trauma and it was an exile. It's like I didn't. I didn't like my nose, but I didn't want anyone to know, so I was hiding it. Once you face the exile and you just own it, it becomes less, it controls you less, and so what I think is happening I would be upset to some extent with the comment that person made too. Ignorance has always bothered me and I think on some level it's supposed to bother me because I'm trying to educate people, but on the other end of that, I think I would feel attacked. I would feel undervalued.

Alan:

The two types of exiles that I focus on in my coaching is one is unlovable, which is, if you have the exile of unlovable, most likely you don't feel like an easily likable person. You feel like you've always been attacked for almost no reason. You've probably dealt with bullying. You've probably even bullied. You most likely are afraid of judgment, not because you don't think you're great, but because you have often been triggering the insecurities of those around you. I think unlovable is rarer than the next one. The next one is referred to in IFS as defective, but I like to think of it as not feeling capable enough. So, for example, kevin and I are good examples. Please know we're not talking about us. We want you thinking of you, but we use ourselves as examples.

Alan:

Kevin has, in my opinion, I think you have defective, which is let me psychoanalyze you for a second I think that you have I don't feel capable enough. I think that's your deepest exile and I don't have that. I very rarely feel not capable enough, very, very rarely. So it's not like I don't have it at all, it's just very small, very small exile, whereas Kev's is like no, no, no, I've earned this. I'm really good at podcasting, I coach podcast, whereas me it would trigger unlovable. It's like why do you hate me? For no reason. I don't understand, and so that's why, when you were articulating well, if I'm above average, I'll almost want a video, I don't have that at all. I don't want judgment period, because I know the better I get at something, the more I'm going to be disliked. And I don't think your fear is being disliked. I think your fear is being seen as incompetent when you're actually competent, which is a whole weird topic.

Kevin:

I don't like being disliked either, but I'm not a fan definitely.

Alan:

I think that we both don't like being disliked. I don't think anyone does fear, but the reasons underneath it are different. So if you're a long-term listener, this will make sense. If you're not, I'll try to articulate it better. But Kev isn't super afraid and I've been studying you for a long time, kev You're not that afraid of losing people. You're not that offended if you care about past friends that they judge you or whatever, but not nearly as much as I do. And you're much more afraid of not being successful. Yeah, definitely, 100%. I'm not afraid of not being successful at all. I'm afraid of being hated my whole life, and so I think that that is the diametric opposite of our deep core wound, which we will do another episode on. So I digress, but I do think those are the two main ones and I think our listeners can learn a lot about themselves if they identify with one more than the other.

Alan:

Unlovable, most likely. You are really competent, you believe in yourself. You always kind of have. You feel like you love yourself pretty much when you're alone, you really love yourself and you feel very capable of things. But you get disliked often and attacked and bullied for what seems like no reason. That's unlovable Defective is. You just don't feel. Why is that person so good at everything and why do I suck? You had a sibling who was super. This is what I've found A lot of defective people who feel defective. No one's actually defective, by the way. This is just the psychology. They usually had a sibling that was really good at everything and it creates this like wait a minute.

Alan:

When you're a kid, it's like why aren't I smarter? Am I not smart? Am I not that capable? Am I not that good at XYZ? I never felt like I had any of that. I always felt like I could get good at whatever I wanted, but I always felt unlovable. I mean, people just don't like the kid. It's wild. I'm trying to help people every day. It's like this weird thing. So, anyways, I didn't want to take the whole episode, but I do feel like that's the root of why we fear judgment. You and I fear judgment. Both of us do. Yeah, of course, it's for a completely different reason though.

Kevin:

Yeah Well, the ultimate point I want to make is I'm 1600 and somewhat episodes in, and I've done I don't know how many posts on social thousands, and I still, I still hate it, I still hate it. I think the assumption is You're most likely not I guess it's a fine line you're most likely not gonna get Any more judgment than you can handle. It's not like if you and I would go viral and have millions of followers tomorrow. I think that would be really hard, because you might get 10 times more love, but you're also gonna get probably 10 times more hate, and I'm just not equipped for that yet. But I have to imagine, 10 years from today, I will have gotten 10 years worth of judgment, so my relationship with it will just be a little bit different.

Alan:

What was it like for you this time versus in the past?

Kevin:

I Moved. I just moved on a lot faster. That I just moved on a lot faster. It didn't really like hijack my night in the past and not the recent past, but in the in the beginning. I mean that would hijack my night, that would, yeah, that would take the whole night. I'd be thinking about that all day.

Alan:

Appreciate you admitting that, of course. Yeah, it's the worst yeah. Yeah, the worst, so sucks and for the listeners if you struggle with fear, fear of judgment ever, I think, almost I agree. I've found very few people who don't yeah, I agree and the people who don't have really worked on it Consciously and intentionally ego-free behind the scenes. Emilia is really good at this, but she still. It still affects her. It just affects her less than it ever has good.

Kevin:

Well, let me say let me do this because I think this is maybe the most relatable thing I can say when, when I was jeffin on my fitness, I just wasn't. I Don't know why, I was just going through. I just went through a phase where I was not very consistent in the gym and I lost a lot of confidence in the gym. And when I started going back, I went to. I went to another gym because I liked it better, because it was smaller, because it was like I don't want to go. I Just don't feel like I belong at that that other gym anymore. I'm not the like you said it to me, like you're just not the fitness guy. It wasn't that. But I wasn't. I wasn't my ego wasn't ready to go to a gym and be like last, just starting at what feels like. And again, I understand, I'm member in Toronto brutal.

Alan:

Oh, we went, we went to Toronto. We used to be the guys we really fell.

Kevin:

This gym was like three stories in downtown Toronto and everybody was jacked and you and I I was grabbing the 40s. That was bad, it was.

Alan:

and again for seven. That's that's bad. For when I say bad, I don't mean it's all relative, but I was I.

Kevin:

Don't know that I would. I would classify it as afraid of judgment. I don't know if that was the thought in my head, but that's part of it. I didn't want to go to a gym where I was like last.

Alan:

Even even right there. That it shows what we talked about earlier with the unlovable versus the, the defective, kev I, I didn't mind that as much as you did.

Kevin:

Oh.

Alan:

I believe I almost liked that environment because I want to feel bad, so that I know I'm motivated. It's sick oh but, but that's well. That's the thing, though. Be I'm, I'm actually very comfortable being less than. Yeah, you're less, you want to be more than, and that's why we work well together, because You're trying to be as much as me. I'm trying to be less and more relatable. But, watch your words son.

Kevin:

Yeah, I know.

Alan:

But some people are afraid of success. Some people are afraid of failure. I'm afraid of success because socially it's always caused me a lot of pain to be smarter than other people, better than other people, whatever, and you have felt incompetent and you don't like being last. I don't mind being last at all, that doesn't bother me at all. I wanna win the race. I would love to be last.

Kevin:

What'd you say? I wanna win the race.

Alan:

No, I'm not making that wrong I know I, just when you start, when you start being and you are unbelievable at many things when you start getting better and better and better, you're gonna get way more hate. I know I mean, there's a sneaky part of me that knows that that's gonna happen and I'm almost excited for it because I'll feel less alone. I'm not excited for it. When you start believing in yourself, people are gonna start ripping you a new one, man. It's brutal, it's so bad.

Kevin:

It's so bad.

Alan:

But you get to believe in yourself.

Kevin:

so that's the best part? Well, I think the best part is we have a really awesome community. Yeah, so I don't Our community won't. Yeah, I don't worry about that here. That's why I think that's one of the benefits of. One of the benefits of that is we can be as vulnerable as we are.

Alan:

We don't like bullies.

Kevin:

No, no, it's-.

Alan:

That's the one thing about our community. You gotta be against something in the world. We're against bullies. Well, and I don't wanna ego up.

Kevin:

That's. I wanna respond, but in my mind it's like well, what's the point? What will be solved by me responding? Am I looking for someone to apologize?

Alan:

No, I think you responding with something centered would help your self-worth. And again, that's maybe a me thing. I have a score on our whiteboard downstairs. It's a self-respect score and every time I stand up for myself because my fear is being toxic. I don't ever wanna be toxic. Whenever I get really intense on this show, I'll always apologize. You'll hear me. It's like listen, I'm sorry, I've got my junk on you.

Kevin:

That's not my goal right.

Alan:

But at the end of the day I have a self-respect score where every time I stand up for myself. I set a boundary yesterday that was it's a small little boundary, I mean it wasn't big, but I got a. I went and I have a six right now, so I get a tally. So I'll actually get seven because I did something else earlier today. That was big for me. The courage to speak up for yourself, I think is important. Just don't over swing it and become the bully, and I do think that would help you to respond with something centered, Just to stick up for yourself, your self-worth. I think internally you'd have more self-respect.

Alan:

Well, I gotta figure out what centered is first. Yeah, maybe tell him to have fun. I'm kidding, you know I'm kidding, I don't know, I don't know, I'm sorry, it's fine, though. No, no, you're kidding, I really am playful. Yeah, yeah, of course, being playful.

Kevin:

We'll see. We'll see what happens. Maybe we'll talk about that in a later episode, but again, I know this one was very heavy on me and my experiences and Alan with his experiences. Just think of how that, how would that feel for you? What would come up and how is that showing up for you in your life? Is the fear of judgment stopping you from doing the thing? Are you doing the thing and you're getting some judgment? You're afraid of the judgment you're getting. And this is the last thing I would say. If you, hypothetically, if I put a post up I mean not even hypothetically this, this happens, it's Common. I put a post up, now, let's say it gets three likes, that is a judgment. I Just didn't see how many people saw it and decided not to do anything with it. If anything, that's a bigger judgment than one person reaching out and saying, hey, it's so. Judgment is contextual.

Kevin:

Yeah judgment is contextual. There's probably a lot of people that look at a restaurant and say, ah, that ain't it. There's also probably a lot of people that leave negative reviews when they have a bad experience. But more people look at the restaurant and say that's not it. More people judge it that way than Then the other way. So I just want to throw that out for context just as a closing statement.

Alan:

My next level nugget would be I Used to say this all the time, I don't anymore. But if you, if you want to avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing, how do you, how do you take constructive feedback and, you know, weaned through the destructive feedback? Because one thing that I've Matured in that I think is valuable is a Lot of the things that people were judging me for back then. They had a point. Now it definitely wasn't warranted and it was definitely over the top and it was definitely mean, but there was a point. So let's say, 2% of their hundred percent over swing was actually valid. There is something to learn from in all feedback. In this case, probably not. I don't know, maybe it's just.

Kevin:

Well it's something to learn about me.

Alan:

Yeah, exactly, exactly yeah. And that would be the next level nugget, which is there's something to learn about yourself and and, in general, whenever you get Feedback, whether it's constructive or destructive, whether it's bullying or not, but I would say that if you allow judgment to control you, you will not achieve your dreams, and that goes for me too, and that goes for Kevin as well. You know, if you're going to open a restaurant, some people are going to hate it, some people are going to love it. Hopefully a larger percent love it, then hate it, and if that's not the case, you'll probably go out of business. So that's a whole, nother judgment. But that's judgments, a part of life. And you give a speech in front of a thousand people, you only have one character and you have a thousand reputations, and who you are behind the scenes, when no one's watching, is going to matter always more To your own fulfillment in your own life. So so focus on that and hope the rest, you know, follows.

Kevin:

Very well said. Very well said, thank you very welcome next level nation.

Kevin:

If you have not yet joined our private facebook group, a place where you will be free of judgment that I can, that I can guarantee you, because that is what it's built on Please do so. The link will be in the show notes. We love to Meet the community. We love to connect the community with other community members. I know it's hard to grow on your own. Rothe is hard. Doing it alone is even harder. So join a group that will support you and your growth.

Alan:

I've got book club coming up right after this. This is one of the questions that I'm posing to book club. This is after the recording. This is after the recording. Yes, uh, what if the things we don't quote unquote like about ourselves are actually just protecting us from a deeper fear, aka a fear of failure or a fear of success? In other words, if you think, oh well, I'm shy and I don't like that I'm shy. What if being shy is actually keeping you from doing the audacious things that would light you up, like maybe rapping or singing or dancing or or posting? So so what if these things about ourselves that we dislike are actually protecting us From our own greatness in a way, because we're actually afraid of judgment or we're actually afraid of failure or we're actually afraid of being hurt?

Alan:

So, anyways, that's. That's kind of little taste of book club it's. It's a place where we contemplate next level books with next level people. We bounce ideas off each other. It's really awesome. I hope that you join. We're reading a book called the courage to be disliked. Right now it's every saturday 12 30 pm. Eastern standard time, and I did check today. Today is our 150th session, so we've been doing this for a while, so I promise I'm getting decent at this halfway, halfway, yeah, uh and uh. It's been. It's been really, really beneficial for my thinking differently. That's the premise of book club is let's contemplate and think differently.

Kevin:

Yeah right on tomorrow for episode number 1611. This is an episode we talked about doing and then we pushed it back a little bit because I didn't want it to be too close to a similar episode. The difference between high self-worth and entitlement One of the most challenging pieces of relationships Are dealing with people that are entitled, and they're entitled to your time. They're entitled to your focus, whatever it is it's. It's such a challenge and I know we've all dealt with that to some level. But some people have super high self-worth and sometimes it comes off as entitlement, sometimes entitlement comes off as super high self-worth. So we figured we do a deep dive into that and see what comes to the surface. So that's what we're going to do tomorrow. As always, we love you, we appreciate you, grateful for each and every one of you, and at nlu we do not have fans, we have family. We will talk to you all tomorrow.

Alan:

Talk to you soon. Next elimination.

Kevin:

Oh for two, oh for three oh for three. It's losing it.

People on this episode

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Alan Lazaros

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Kevin Palmieri

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