#1647 - Working Through Shame

Facing the specter of shame is a transformative journey in the labyrinth of personal growth. In this episode, Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros guide us through this introspective odyssey, exploring how embracing vulnerability can lead to profound self-discovery and deeper connections. Their candid dialogue and heartfelt stories reveal that confronting our darkest emotions unlocks the door to authentic relationships and personal evolution.

Links mentioned:
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Show notes:
(2:04) Shadows of shame
(9:15) Working through shame
(12:38) Amount of shame correlates with the amount of hiding
(13:55) Next Level Dreamliner: the planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy: https://a.co/d/f1FWAQA
(15:18) The power of confrontation and vulnerability
(19:03) It builds self-worth
(21:16) Confidence in vulnerability
(24:40) Safe space
(27:34) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Transcript

Kevin 0:00

Next level nation. Welcome back to another episode of next level university, where we help you level up your life, your love, your health and your wealth. We hope you enjoyed yesterday's episode. It was episode number 1646. Insecurities trap us like this today for episode number one thousand six hundred and forty seven, working through shame. Usually I have a personal story of hey, this happened to me or this happened in a coaching call or whatever it is. But this is more of an example of something you and I have learned over the last seven years, which is wild to say.

Kevin 0:38

We have had many amazing humans come into the community and either work with us one-on-one or go through group coaching or attend event or download the course, whatever it is, email us, have a conversation on social media and and Then they ghost us and they won't answer our messages when we say I, I do it all the time. If you're listening, whether you're watching or listening, you've probably gotten a message from me saying, hey, how is everything? Or hey, long time, no talk. What's new? Hey, how are you? And some people are very responsive to that. But what I've noticed, and you and I have talked about this, is when somebody starts to ghost us, the ghosting gets worse and worse and worse until I think there's some sort of thing that happens in their life. And then they reach back out and I think it's shame.

Kevin 1:28

I have so many examples of this, of the great example. There is somebody who paid me a thousand dollars two years ago. They sent me a thousand dollars because they wanted to do all this podcasting stuff. We had two calls or three calls, then they ghosted me for a year. Then they messaged me on what's happened, said Merry Christmas, kev. And I was like, oh cool, this person's back. I said Merry Christmas back to you. I hope it's amazing. I hope the holiday seasons are going really well. Just enough why I? I still have your money from when you wanted to start a podcast. Do you still want to start your podcast? And they said, yeah, absolutely, let's set up a call. Set up a call, did the call. Then they ghosted me again and I haven't heard from them now in probably Eight months.

Alan 2:23

So what's underneath that is, I think we all have avoidance tendencies with certain things that were Ashamed of, and what we do is we avoid, and then we're ashamed that we're avoiding.

Kevin 2:35

That's what happens. I think you get into a cycle of Shame is something very interesting, where if you don't face it right away, so think of it this way it gets bigger.

Kevin 2:46

Guilt is I did something wrong and I feel badly about it. Shame is I am bad. There's something about me, not something about I, something I did. If something about me maybe at the character level, I Think it compounds, so it's not only Did I potentially do something I'm ashamed of, but now I'm not facing the thing that I'm ashamed of, so it's just perpetuating and it's becoming a cycle and it's becoming a cycle and it's becoming a cycle and you and I or I'll speak for myself I remember this was probably 2019. I think this is right after, right now, right before COVID. This is right before COVID. We did a live event, mm-hmm, and I remember I was. This was at Taran and I's old apartment. We had a. When my first moved in with her, she had a one bedroom apartment and I remember we were sitting in the bedroom and she said how are the, how are the ticket sales going for the event?

Kevin 3:50

I said I don't even know, don't even, not even sure, couldn't even tell you, and I think at the time we had two tickets sold and we were, we were in trouble and I Think either right after that or later that night, perspective, because we have the what like 45 to 50 right now.

Alan 4:09

Yeah compared to yeah. Yeah it's. Things have changed in the positive direction, which is good, yeah for sure.

Kevin 4:15

I don't know if it was that, if it was right in that moment or later that night, but I went and told her. I said hey, I kind of lied earlier, and I always I want to be as truthful as I can. I think we have three tickets sold and I'm ashamed that I lied, but under that is I'm. I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed that you would think less of me. I was embarrassed that you Wouldn't believe in me. I was embarrassed that you think I was a failure. I was just embarrassed. I Would rather Face the shame in the moment than the embarrassment. Until the shame got to a point where I was like I don't want that to be Mm-hmm, I don't want that to be the way this goes, so that I work through it. But imagine if I Imagine, if I didn't work through that I'd still probably have shame about that every time. She asked like, hey, how's group coaching going? Yeah, I don't even. I couldn't even tell you. I don't even, I don't even know, or how's the business going?

Kevin 5:10

Yeah, you know, I don't, I don't really, I'm not really sure about that. So it's just an example of If you don't stop shame, I think it gets harder and harder and harder to look in the mirror, because then you just make excuses for why you don't want to face it, and again, I'm as guilty of that as anybody. So the.

Alan 5:30

I often say this when I am in workshops or speeches or training. I'll say everyone the best part about coaching I've said this on this podcast too the best part about coaching so many people is that you realize that it's not a you problem, it's a person, it's a people problem, it's an everyone problem. This is an everyone problem, and when I say this what I in particular mean there's no one I've ever met who is not avoiding something. So people will say, oh, I'm a procrastinator, I struggle with procrastination. First of all, every human I've ever met procrastinates in at least one area. Okay, so we have a CPA. My CPA's name is Erin. She'll email me hey, you got to fill this out for the taxes. Blah, blah, blah. I avoid that email like the plague. It's nothing to do with Erin, I don't want to deal with it. Right? I'm overwhelmed, I'm busy. Blah, blah, blah. I think CPA's must have a really hard time because I guarantee you they get ghosted way more than you do on the podcast production front, like that person who paid and then is ghosting you. What Kevin and I have come to realize over the seven year journey with listeners they're not ghosting you, they're not ghosting me, because I'll use one example, privately, anonymously.

Alan 6:50

There was this one person that we were 10 out of 10 rapport with. It was unbelievable. It was a great relationship. We love this person. This person loves us. Great, great, great, awesome, awesome, awesome. All of a sudden started ghosting us and Kevin and I are like well, what happened? I don't understand. We had such a great relationship. Now she's not answering either one of us. I don't get it.

Alan 7:11

Years went by. It was like a year and a half, two years, it was two years and then she reached it. She reaches out, she's our biggest fan. She's like I've been listening to the show, I love the show and then she ended up coaching she group coaching no, she didn't do group coaching. She ended up doing one-on-one coaching with me and I coached this person for at least a year regularly and the whole time Kevin and I thought she hated us.

Alan 7:38

And the truth of the matter is and now what we do is we playfully will say, oh, that person hates us, but then I said this to you yesterday. I said they don't hate us, they just are going through whatever X, y, z. I think we have become, and I'm grateful for this. We have branded ourselves as self-improvement, and I've had clients behind the scenes. Tell me this client will know who I'm talking about. This person listens to the show every day, so shout out to you if you're listening. She said I don't want to listen to the show when I'm Jeffing, of course, because when I'm Jeffing I don't want to think about all the things I'm not doing.

Alan 8:17

One of the reasons why our show might have been more challenging to grow than other shows is it's just a big mirror, and what I mean by that is if you're not doing the work to improve yourself in health, wealth, life and love, you most likely have some shame around that, and that's okay. I've been there too. I talked about being I've said three episodes in a row now. I was in so much shame, fitness-wise, that I couldn't even watch a movie with Henry Cavill Superman shirtless. I was in so much shame I had to go in the bathroom alone and cry about it, and that broke me out of the shame, because I finally looked in the mirror, metaphorically and literally, and cried and faced the shame. I believe that we all have to pay the piper eventually. We all have to face the shame eventually, and you can.

Alan 9:05

In internal family systems, it's a modality of therapy. They call it an exile. You basically have this part of you that you just exile and it's deep beneath the surface that you try to keep it down. My therapist, carol, she describes it like a beach ball underwater that you're trying to hold underwater. You don't want anyone to see. And we talked about insecurities in the last episode. Shame and insecurities are often similar. So if I'm insecure about my calves, I'll try to wear pants instead of shorts. If I'm insecure about my nose, I'll try to wear a hat to cover it up so the light doesn't hit it in a certain way. Those are just a couple of mine that I've long I don't want to say fully gotten over, but I'm definitely on the far end now of not worrying about it. But back in the day I used to be ashamed, used to be insecure, and then, when you hide something, I'm convinced that shame is something you hide If you have something that you're hiding from your intimate partner or you're hiding from other people close friends, and this is one of the reasons why I have I think social media tends to be such a highlight reel it's almost like everyone listening or watching this.

Alan 10:13

Think of your circle of peers. This is called Dunbar's number. Apparently there's five, 15, and then it's like 50 and then 150. There's a lot of science underneath it, but essentially and I might have butchered the numbers but essentially you have circles of network, so you have your closest peers. So, kev, you have like your five. So you've got me, matt Taryn I don't know who else would be in that, to be honest with you probably some of the team members or whatever, yeah, okay. Then you've got your 15, which is the NLU team and a couple of your clients or whatever, okay. And then you and Taryn's close friends. Then you've got the 50, and the 50 is the people coming in XLL life. And then you've got your 150, which is like the network, okay.

Alan 11:00

Now, when it comes to shame, how much are you hiding from the 150? There's a correlation between how ashamed you are and how much. That's why, when you shared on the podcast that you had been addicted to porn in the past, I was so blown away and Kevin and I went to the bathroom and I said, dude, that that was amazing, that took so much courage. And the reason why is because back then I was by no means addicted, but I was still partaking, and I since not for three or four years now. But the point is is that back then I remember thinking I don't know if I would share that. I don't know if I would even share that I use it, never mind addicted, and so I was blown away.

Alan 11:44

But of course I'm blown away because I had shame. I didn't know it, I didn't know it. It's like a couple of times a week, not a big deal, blah, blah, blah Story to tell myself that I'm not ashamed when deep down, I actually am ashamed. And the reason why I saw you as courageous is because you had the courage to do what I wouldn't, because you shared something that I wouldn't. And so it's this interesting thing of the amount of shame that you have. I think is correlated to how much you're hiding. How much are you hiding your bank account? How much are you hiding your physique? How much are you hiding your calves or your nose? How much are you hiding your porn habit? How much are you hiding your drinking habit? How much are you hiding in shame? I'm convinced they're super correlated and I guarantee you there's some research under that that I probably couldn't, I couldn't quote, but well, I think we're just.

Kevin 12:30

We're afraid. We're deeply afraid that people are going to look at us differently. We're going to we're going to lose our reputation. We're going to lose the view that somebody else has of us. I think that's a that's a big thing for. So we joke about this a lot, but I used to smoke weed very often when we first started this journey. It was like every day 2018, that that time of my life it was like every day. And then I stopped for years. I didn't, I wouldn't touch it for years, and then I started partaking again, last year maybe, and I was nervous for you to know I was, I think I was ashamed because I was like is Alan going to think that I don't take this seriously? And there was a piece of me that was like do I really want to even talk about that publicly? You used to call it the devil's lettuce.

Alan 13:16

That's not what I call that. That's been around for a long time. Okay, I always think that's funny man.

Kevin 13:21

Yeah, yeah, that's not partaking the devil's lettuce. That's not. I didn't come up with that, that's an old thing. But even I was nervous to talk about it on here. I was. I felt shame that people would look at me differently. It's like, oh, you're the self-improvement guy and you smoke weed, isn't that a little? You know that. That was kind of the story I was telling myself. So I I think it's a, it's a character thing. It's like, well, somebody going to look at me differently because of what I say. And that's why it's a fine line when you, when you're being vulnerable, you the I don't remember who said it but share scars, not open wounds, open wounds or things you're still ashamed of, I think, share publicly scars, not open wounds.

Alan 14:01

I think, when it comes to your close relationships, it's important to be able to be in a safe space with people that are not toxic, that you can share. I would agree with that. I was telling you, kevin, right before this some time. So Kevin's a podcast coach and I'm a business coach. I had two business coaching sessions earlier today. Both of them were about intimate relationships. We didn't talk about business at all, and Kevin was talking about how I have some podcast clients that we just talk about life. Yeah, and so you don't exactly we don't want to package as life coaching, but ultimately that's what it is underneath. It is life coaching with a business flavor, podcast coaching or life coaching with a podcast flavor. But life, love, health and wealth is what we're doing in our coaching. But underneath all that is it's the conversation that you can have. It's the safe space that you can create with a coach, which is why I always say things anonymously. Kevin and I will always talk about conversations we've had with clients, but you'll notice that we don't often talk about who it was, and less that person has explicitly said that we could, because we don't ever want anyone to feel psychologically unsafe to talk about what's real If you have shame around, something you're going to have to face, that you kind of get stuck.

Alan 15:21

If you don't, you do. You get stuck running from it unconsciously. And if you don't have someone that you can share it with, like a therapist or a coach or an intimate partner or a close friend, I think it's really it could eat you. It could eat you alive and I think true confidence is the. I think true confidence and true self-esteem comes from the extent that you face courageously your deepest shape. That's a big part of it.

Kevin 16:00

I understand, now more than ever, why people ghost though I don't. Again, I empathize, I can understand. It's way easier just not to say anything than to say the truth. I get reached out to I'm sure you do. I get reached out to on LinkedIn all the time with or emails. Just say no if you want me to stop sending this, or blah, blah, blah. It's like I'm just going to mark this as spam and not deal with it, because I don't really want to tell you how I feel.

Kevin 16:22

I don't want to tell you that I'm frustrated that you emailed me six times, even though in the first email you said you didn't want to bother me. And I don't know who you are, I don't know how you got my email. I would rather just ghost. I'd rather just let it die on the vine, because I don't really want to give somebody that level of truth. So now I understand more than ever why people ghost because it's easier, it's the path of least resistance, it's the path of least feedback, it's the path that has the least opportunity for confrontation. It's just ah, I'm going to sneak off into the darkness here.

Alan 16:58

The problem is that if you avoid confrontation, I think you've got to pick when you do it. So I'm not. If it's a spam email, you don't necessarily have to give that the time of day, but I do think there's a correlation. This is what I've been working on when you have courage to share something or to confront something, I think it makes you, it builds yourself worth.

Kevin 17:22

I'd say so yeah.

Alan 17:22

And I would say it makes the shame smaller, not bigger, whereas if you avoid it and keep avoiding it and keep hiding it, it actually makes it bigger. In the past, you and I would do live events and they would be really stressful, but I would suffer in silence. I didn't do that at all this time. I mean we were talking about on the show. Live events are tough, but then, like with Emilia, I said probably a month and a half, two months ago, I said this next couple of months are going to be really hard and I don't want to suffer in silence. I want to share with you what I'm going through. And so we she's actually been super, super supportive. She's even invited some people that are going to come. But in the past I probably would have hid that I was struggling. I didn't know that's how we used to operate, but it was not. It wasn't good for us. I don't think, oh for sure.

Kevin 18:20

I still don't. I still think I have a flavor of that. I come to you when it's really bad, but it's sometimes. It's just one of those things where it's like, well, what, what is me talking about this really going to do? It's nice to have someone know what I'm going through, but nothing's going to change right now.

Alan 18:39

Maybe not logistically, but what about internally? I could support you more, I could you know what I mean.

Kevin 18:47

But yeah, but in my mind I've kind of already gone through like what, what is Alan really going to be able to do? You know, I've already been removed from this meeting and this meeting there's no, there's nothing else for me, there's no more to take away right now. Sometimes for me it's just I'm going to. It's not because I'm ashamed, it's not because I'm afraid to share it, sometimes just like it's not. I don't think that's the right answer. I think sometimes for me it's just there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I know where the light at the end of the tunnel is. I just got to get to the light at the end of the tunnel. We've done this many, many, many times before. So but I think it depends. But it's not from a place of shame. Sometimes it's just I'd rather put my head down and get through it.

Alan 19:25

One last piece too. I think that there's some truth to some. People actually will see you as weaker.

Kevin 19:31

Unfortunately.

Alan 19:31

That's the unfortunate truth is, when you are vulnerable and honest about your struggles, some people will see you as less competent, when in reality it's definitely the opposite, because I've coached some of the most competent people quote unquote in the world and I've coached some of the seemingly weak and vulnerable. And I'm telling you, in the real world, when social media is not the focus, it's like the real behind the scenes life. It's the people that I'm thinking of. Someone right now who's just unbelievably strong, but she's often seen as struggle-bossing. She's often on the struggle bus. She just doesn't hide it like she used to and, believe it or not, she's actually way more confident and fulfilled than she's ever been. I actually think in a large part, that's what the growth journey actually is. You became more confident as you shared more and more how unconfident you are isn't that so?

Alan 20:28

interesting.

Kevin 20:30

Well, it's because then you don't feel like you're hiding anything. You know it's. I'm not hiding. I don't have to pretend to show up in a certain way that I don't feel like I am, because I think that creates more insecurity, like what if someone finds out? What if someone finds out I'm not as confident? Or what if someone finds out I forgot what I was going to say there, where I'll just say I don't, yeah, I don't know, I lost it. It was there, now it's gone. I just think that's a an understanding of most of the mistakes you make. People just don't care about, they're just, they don't matter that much. If I like, forget what I'm gonna say on an episode that doesn't matter at all. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter at all. It's not that big of a deal. So, but that's been a that's been a very, very, very long journey and you and I have done this so many times where now it's just, it's just normal to talk about whatever.

Alan 21:31

Had that happened on an episode recently. I was in flow, I was going boom, boom, boom I. You ever do that, think ever you're like ah well, three things.

Kevin 21:40

Oh, of course, careful coming up with a third one when you're on the second. I like shit. I only have two things.

Alan 21:47

Yeah, no I so I did that with two things, and it was when I was on my day quill action Trying to get over my illness, and I was just not there. My cognitive function wasn't there and I got through one thing. And then I got to the second one Nothing, dude nothing. And it was long pause too, like oh yeah, you'll think of it.

Kevin 22:10

No, no, I'm not gonna think of it.

Alan 22:12

I didn't end up thinking of it, I just came up with something else that happened today when I was talking about when I was.

Kevin 22:18

I always forget the word confrontation. I for some reason I can never remember the word, and I did something where I said it does it literally on this episode. It does blank and it does blank. And then I was thinking of, like I want to say the thing about confrontation, but I don't know if I'm gonna remember the word in time, so I just started and then it came to me in time but it's a risky game.

Alan 22:39

It's a risky game. No one would have ever known that, though.

Kevin 22:42

No, no, but I would, but I would, and that sometimes that's the worst my next level, nugget.

Alan 22:48

Don't identify the things you're hiding and then Slowly get outside your comfort zone with sharing them with people that you know it's safe to do. So that's what I would, that's what I would recommend, because I really do believe that that's going to transform everything. That's the inner work Ultimately. That's what the inner work is is what am I hiding? Yeah, and why? Why am I hiding it? And what if I just were to show a little bit of that perceived weakness and you, you'd be amazed how courageous and confident you'll get when you do that. That's what real confidence is, I think, is actually being who you really are. I agree, yeah.

Kevin 23:30

I agree. My next level nugget would be it's not just positive things that build momentum, negative things build momentum too. So if you have shame around something and you don't face it, I think it builds, and then I think it's just harder eventually to stop that train, unless you have an extreme moment of courage. So that would be my next level nugget. If you have not yet got your ticket Whether it's virtual or in person to next level live, this episode is dropping on Wednesday. So Thursday, friday, we have two days, I guess three days before you could get your ticket on Saturday. If it's virtual, in person might make it a little bit challenging, but if you are interested, please check out the website. If it allows you to purchase one, that means there's tickets left. You can also reach out to Alan or myself if you have any questions, and we can.

Kevin 24:18

We can answer We'd love to see you in person or virtual, super excited, it's almost here the day is here.

Alan 24:24

If you have not done so yet, please identify, like, find us on social media Instagram, facebook, linkedin. We would love to meet you. Dm us, say, hey, I loved episode XYZ. I love when you talk about XYZ. Hey, I'm a listener. My name is just introduce yourself. Hey, I'm a listener. My name is Alan. I just wanted to let you know, because you said it on the episode, my point of that Kevin and I want to build a community of people where it's no bullies, everyone's into self-improvement and everyone wants to see everyone else flourish In their own unique way and there's no bullies allowed. So we love, we love, wow, we love this is a connect with our listener.

Alan 25:07

Yeah, that's a real good monologue. We love to connect with our listeners. It's safe to be imperfect, it's safe to be Growth-oriented, it's safe to have dreams and goals, even if they're not big, and that's what we want to create. So we want to create a community, and the only way to do that is to get to know each of you. So please reach out Instagram, facebook, linkedin. You can email us.

Kevin 25:28

All the stuff will be in the show notes tomorrow for episode number 1648, the worst advice we've ever gotten for rejection. That's all I'm gonna leave you with nice. Yeah, as always, we love you, we appreciate you, grateful for each and every one of you, and at NLU, we do not have fans, we have family. We will talk to you all tomorrow.

Alan 25:53

Don't get stuck in shame. The explanation