Next Level University

#1818 - How To Actually Work Through Failure

• Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

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Could consistent failures be the secret to success? In this game-changing episode, Kevin and Alan dive deep into the importance of failing at a level you can handle and how it shapes long-term success. Whether you’re an entrepreneur or simply navigating life’s challenges, they discuss how small failures pave the way for bigger wins and why embracing them can be the key to growth. Tune in to hear how shifting your mindset about failure can make all the difference in achieving your goals.

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Free 30-Minute Coaching Call with Alan: https://calendly.com/alanlazaros/30-minute-call-with-alan?month=2024-09

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🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Speaker 1

do your best to make sure that you are failing constructively at the level that you can handle it along the way. But if you're avoiding failure and you avoid it, and you avoid it, and you avoid it, and you avoid it, failure will happen eventually, and you might be so unfamiliar with it that it might break you.

Speaker 2

I'm only losing two thirds of the time. Oh, now I'm actually interesting. I'm like winning most of them and then, oh my God, I'm winning all of them. And then you go up to the next belt or whatever, and all of a sudden you're losing all your fights again. I think that's kind of how success feels.

Speaker 1

Welcome to Next Level University. I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri.

Speaker 2

And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.

Speaker 1

At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven but no BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Speaker 2

Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love health and wealth.

Speaker 1

We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits and defining your own unique version of success.

Speaker 2

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Speaker 1

Welcome to Next Level University. Next Level Nation. Next Level Nation. Welcome back to another episode of Next Level University, where we help you level up your life, your love, your health and your wealth. Today, for episode number 1,818, how to actually work through failure, alan and I were having a conversation before we did this and we said what are we pulled to talk about? What do we really really want to talk about? And I believe you were on a podcast and they asked you if, yeah, you could set the stage, because I don't know exactly how the conversation went and I don't want to butcher it.

Speaker 2

Okay, so I was on a podcast yesterday with no podcast pre-call today. The name of the show is improvement something, so I was pumped love it. Kevin and I are a little confused because the calendar event said luke and then in google meet for the pre-call it was luca. Either way, either way person.

Speaker 2

there was a person. It was a person from greece, young man, 16 year. He asked me a question and he said somehow we got on the topic of. So I said who's your listener? I always ask, I want to know who I'm talking to. And he said entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2

And I said he asked me do you think everyone should be an entrepreneur? And I said Kevin and I, early on, used to think that everyone should, and I don't know if that's actually true. Let me, let me rephrase Let me used to think that everyone should, and I don't know if that's actually true. Let me, let me rephrase let me communicate this better. The only thing better than the truth is the whole truth. We used to be a lot more optimistic about people chasing their dreams, and it's not that we don't want everyone to change their dreams, but the way in which they do. That is very different, because I think an entrepreneur is someone who is a business owner, who starts their own thing from scratch. That is something that I do not actually think is for everyone. Kevin has talked about that. That's not the point of this episode, but I ultimately said no, I actually think most people probably shouldn't start from scratch in their own thing, but there's something called an entrepreneur, which is being a part of something bigger than yourself. I think that's awesome and I think most people should aspire to that. I think that's really fulfilling and meaningful.

Kevin’s evolving relationship with failure

Speaker 2

And he said well, who do you think should be an entrepreneur? And I said, honestly, it comes down to what drives you. He said what do you mean? I said if you are ignited by failure and it motivates you when you fail, you should be an entrepreneur. And that's what we're talking about today, which is, are you ignited by failure? And Kev talks about how he's not. And he also had an experience today that you would consider an L. And I remember you and I have been kind of playfully arguing back and forth for the last seven years and you'd say things like I think we need some W's and sometimes don't get me wrong 100% I need some W's, but for the most part there are quotes like success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm. That quote always resonated with me. I don't think it resonates with most people, but I didn't know that before. It's not my favorite quote. I resonated with me.

Speaker 1

I don't think it resonates with most people, but I didn't know that before. It's not my favorite quote I've ever heard.

Speaker 2

What did you think of that quote back in the day, when I used to say things like that? That's a Winston Churchill quote, by the way. He said success is going from failure to failure, to failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.

Speaker 1

I don't know if I ever remember you saying that. Honestly. I'm sure you probably said it many times in your quoting days, but I don't know. I don't remember it in my quoting days, in your quoting days.

Speaker 2

I what would you have thought of?

Speaker 1

it dumb nice. Yeah, I thought it was dumb like what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. It's like that's not actually true.

Speaker 1

That's not always true, it's not that's not always true, yeah, but I think the failure, going from failure to failure, makes more sense. Because now, with my experience that I have, I think obviously that makes sense. I'm just not. I don't get ignited from failure. I hate failure. I still don't like it. I'm okay, I coexist with it. I'm not necessarily friends with failure. I'm more friendly. We're'm okay, I coexist with it. I'm not necessarily friends with failure. I'm more friendly. We're acquaintances, I coexist with it, but it's not. I get really sad when I fail first.

Speaker 2

You guys are acquaintances. You hang out on the weekends, not even Go to the movies.

Speaker 1

Not even Wouldn't, wouldn't. No, it's like it's a strange cousin that you see at a family reunion.

Speaker 2

What about you? And success Hanging out on the reg?

Speaker 1

Less, less, probably less, I mean yeah, I love success, never get to see them that often, yeah, I fail more than I succeed, which is pretty much what we're saying. I'm just not ignited by it. Is pretty much what we're saying, I'm just not ignited by it. So to Alan's example I went on a podcast this week to keep some anonymity and it just wasn't great, Just wasn't. I told Alan I said maybe the least value I've ever added on a public forum ever. And it wasn't that I did anything. I didn't necessarily do anything wrong, it was just clunky the way we were going back and forth the host. It just wasn't good. It just wasn't a great interview. And naturally I get off and I say, okay, what part did I play in that? Was that me? Was it my energy? Could I have done something differently? Yes, I could always do something differently. And then and then, how much is on them? For it didn't seem like they did a ton of research. It didn't seem like they really knew. They seemed super nervous, which was interesting. So there's a lot of layers to it. But back in the day I would internalize that as I'm not good, I'm not smart enough, I should have done better. A great podcaster, no matter what, would find a way to add value, and I think that's true. I do think I added value, just less than ever.

Speaker 1

So my relationship with failure has just changed a lot over the last seven years. But I still don't like it. I still don't aspire to do it. Often it still sucks. It's just it sucks less and I think I personalize it less and it doesn't stay for as long, if that makes sense. It doesn't float around me like it used to and I think that's a big piece of it.

Speaker 1

But I think how to actually work through failure? I think the only way to actually work through failure is to fail small, over and over and over. I think what happens is a lot of people see a very public failure that's massive and they say I could never come back from that, when in reality the person who's having that massive public failure has had a million micro ones getting to that moment and then, like a comedian that bombs on stage. Number one, it's not their first time bombing Number two, maybe it's not the biggest audience they've ever bombed in front of Number three, they've been doing it long enough where they have more wins than they do losses. So I just think there's a lot of that that you don't get to see, which makes it seem like they're just failing gracefully when they just have more experience.

Speaker 2

I was on a podcast yesterday with a man named Chris Perry. Again, I talked about this yesterday. I don't know if it's his exact name, because I think that might be a middle name. It doesn't matter. He asked me a question or no, he talked about he owns a.

Speaker 2

I asked him how long have you been teaching jujitsu? I don't know if I can say that word. Well, jujitsu, yeah. And he said 17 years. I said oh, so you've had a ton of kids come in and out of your jujitsu school. He said yeah.

Speaker 2

I said what are the things you notice about the kids that you know are going to be great eventually, that you know are going to succeed eventually? And he said said. His answer was intriguing. Kevin has left the building. Kevin's gone now. Okay, the cats are fighting. Kevin has left the camera for those of you on youtube, so now I'm just talking here. I am by myself, talking to myself, but anyway. So he said the, the kids who are willing to fail over and over again with grace that was his answer is some of the kids that come to his program. I said how do you coach them? How do you mentor them? How do you help them grow? And he said honestly, a lot of times it's the parents who think their kid is great. And I tell the parents, your kid is going to learn how to lose gracefully, Meaning not be a sore loser ultimately. And when you were doing were doing jiu-jitsu, you were losing constantly, so why did that ignite you? But this doesn't, because that was the expectation.

Speaker 2

That's what it is, yeah. So when? Why isn't it? Oh, because podcasting you think you're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Not even that. It's just Because it's a competition. Jiu-jitsu is a competition against someone and the beautiful slash not-so-beautiful thing is I know how good someone is to a degree based on what belt they have. So you were talking about hey, are you going on that show with this Chris guy? He's a black belt. And I jokingly said, I don't care what he is, I put him down. And I was kidding, obviously I wouldn't. But that's the beauty is, I know if him and I were ever to roll, he would be able to do whatever he wanted to me. Physically he could. He could beat me with one arm tied behind his back, zero questions asked, wouldn't be hard. He could probably beat me without using either of his arms. That's probably how good he is because there's there's levels. So you go in expecting to lose, because I think it would be arrogant not to be arrogant of me to think I could beat him. Yeah for sure, right, definitely.

Speaker 2

So I think there's like a physical visual that's so interesting this is a I didn't mean to interrupt, but this it's so interesting to hear you say that in an industry of self-improvement where so many people would consider that, oh, just believe in yourself more.

Speaker 1

You should believe in yourself. More called Bully Beatdown, and it was staged and probably not super real, but it was. Somebody would be bullying someone and they would get signed up for the show and they would fight against a professional mixed martial arts fighter. Cool concept, very cool concept. And some of them would think like, yeah, this is going to be fine, I'm going to be able to. I can fight in the street, this is going to be fine. It's not going to be fine. I'm going to be able to. I can fight in the street. This is going to be fine. It's not going to be fine. No, it's not. You're going to get your ass kicked. And you thinking that you could beat a professional fighter because you have tussled on the street is like somebody who plays old man slow pitch softball, thinking they can hit a 95 mile an hour fastball.

Speaker 2

They're just levels, but and I agree and that's very rational and that's very logical, and that's very true, and that's very accurate. But isn't it fascinating how, in this space, some people would say well, kev, it is possible for you to beat him. You just got to believe in yourself more you know you could do it eventually and and could you be a black belt in 10 years? Yeah, and maybe eventually beat him in 10 years, but it's there is a difference.

Speaker 1

Okay, cool, yes, and I believe in myself so much when it comes to jiu-jitsu that I know I couldn't beat him. I think that's empowering. That makes no sense. Talk to me. I believe in myself so much that I am so self-aware of where my skill set is that I know I would never beat him. It's not possible, it would be such a fluke. No, no.

Speaker 2

It would never happen. That doesn't equate to self-belief. Why I have so much self-belief that I can admit, if you took the next 10 years and all you did was focus on your craft of jiu-jitsu, could you?

Speaker 1

beat it. Oh, I don't know, maybe Depends. He's 17 years ahead, is it? Possible.

Speaker 2

He's 52.

Speaker 1

Still Doesn't matter, you can do old man jiu-jitsu for sure 195.

Speaker 2

Still doesn't matter, old man, you can. You can do old jiu-jitsu, for sure 195. I'm kidding, I don't actually.

Speaker 1

I don't actually know the dude's shoe size event, sure this, but there's a difference in eventually, right now, right now, of course but isn't that?

Speaker 2

that's? That's exact. And again, this is not the point of the episode. But self-belief is predicated on time perspective. It's completely predicated on timeline. You know you could not beat him tomorrow, but you could beat him 15 years from now. If, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, if, if, if, if, if, if, yeah, but I don't think that's-.

Speaker 1

Anyway, it's just a sad tangent. Yeah, yeah, but I don't think that's where most people are coming from, that's all Agreed.

Next Level Dreamliner: the planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy:

Speaker 2

Yeah, agreed, Hello, hello, hello, NLU listener, Thank you. I just want to jump in and let you know about the Next Level Dreamliner. This is a journal that I use every single day. Achieve your dreams 90 days at a time. It breaks down your dreams into goals, milestones and daily habits. We hope you enjoy it. The link will be in the show notes. Well, let's bring this back to the failure thing. How many fights would you have to lose to eventually be able to beat someone like that?

Speaker 1

So many, pretty much all of them. It's almost like all of them until eventually I'd win all of them. You'd lose all of them until you get good enough to start winning, and then you'd win most of them because there's less people better than you. And then eventually you get really, really good and then you're going against the best people in the world. So you start losing a lot of them again, like a weird.

Speaker 2

You know, isn't that exactly how this journey has felt?

Speaker 1

yeah, yeah, I would say so, yeah, that's that's success.

Speaker 2

I think that was a really cool articulation of what it feels like to gain success and again, iniu-jitsu world.

Speaker 1

I am a piss-on. I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know. I was a white belt, so I am. If I was to grapple Alan, I'm way better than Alan because he's never done it. But anybody who is doing jiu-jitsu consistently is as good or way better than I am. So again, I'm not on my jujitsu, my BJJ pedestal here. I'm not very good, but compared to your average person I'm good.

Speaker 2

That was mastery in a nutshell, though. That was so cool of. You lose a lot until you start getting better. Then you start facing a new level, a next level opponent, and then you start losing. You start, no, no, no. And then you start losing. You, you start, no, no. First you, you start losing. You lose a bunch at a current level. You're butchering it.

Speaker 2

I am speaking of losing a lot at the current level. So you lose a lot at a certain level and then, all of a sudden, you start crushing it at that level and you start winning a few fights, and then it's so. Let's say, you start out, you lose all your matches. Then, all of a sudden, you're doing two-thirds I'm only losing two-thirds of the time. Oh, now I'm actually interesting. I'm like winning most of them. And then, oh my God, I'm winning all of them. And then you go up to the next belt or whatever, and all of a sudden, you're losing all your fights again. I think that's kind of how success feels. That's how this journey's felt. I think that's the growth journey. I think that's the growth journey in every endeavor, right?

Speaker 1

I think the hard thing about this, though, is, just like you think there's overnight sensations not you the collective, you overnight successes oh, that person just crushed it and they achieved success overnight. That's why somebody who plays their first arena is probably they're nervous, but they're not as nervous as you would be if you're watching or listening, because they've done 1,000 people and 2,000 people, and then 3,000, then 5,000, then 10,000. So when they go from 25,000 to 30,000, it's only 5,000 people. Yeah, I think failure is the same where you fail on a podcast episode that's a solo that nobody sees. Then eventually, you make a mistake on a podcast episode that some people see, and then eventually it's when you have a guest, and eventually it's a big guest, and then eventually it's on stage, and then eventually it's boom, boom, boom, boom. By the time you're five years in, you have accumulated so many small failures, just like you've accumulated so many small wins, that you don't celebrate a win as much and you don't freak out about a failure as much. I think that's all it is.

Speaker 1

I was hoping I could add some value in this episode. I wasn't sure if I was gonna to be able to genuinely. Well, you're coming off an L. Well, I am coming off an L. That is the how to actually work through failure. Do your best to make sure that you are failing constructively at the level that you can handle it along the way, but if you're avoiding failure and you avoid it and you avoid it and you avoid it and you avoid it, failure will happen eventually and you might be so unfamiliar with it that it might break you and then you won't do it again and that's the best advice I can give.

Speaker 1

I bombed my second speech. It wasn't good and even in retrospect, looking back, I've seen some speeches worse than mine, but to my standard it wasn't great. If I did that on the first speech, I might not have spoken a second time. I might not have, I don't know. But since the first one went well, I was okay with failing on the second one, making mistakes and taking that as lessons. So I think it's just that For every small success you have, you're most likely going to have a very, very small failure, and the more of those that you can accumulate, the less it hurts and the less you personalize it. Hopefully that's somewhat valuable.

Speaker 2

Last piece. I know we got to jump. What is the difference between the way I react to failure and the way that you do? You?

Speaker 1

love it. It's almost necessary for you. If you win for too long, it's like you, and this is what you've told me, not what I've necessarily experienced.

Speaker 2

I think I want what you've observed. Not what I've told you, but what you've observed.

Speaker 1

Yeah, if anything, it fires you up, you get more motivated. You like it. You like it because your trauma responses go get better. So you like it. I think failure for you is really good for your growth, because you need to stay humble and the best way to stay humble, if you have a ton of belief in yourself, is just to fail. You know, for me I need wins. If I fail for too long I feel like a failure, I feel like a loser. And it's very easier now, but in the past it was very hard to maintain belief in myself. I didn't have belief as it was. I can't keep taking l's. There's only so many. There's only so many points in the health bar and every time I fail.

Speaker 1

If I lose 10, I lose 10, I lose 10. I need, I need to eat the mushroom that gives me the power back, or whatever, whatever it is in this the pizza I think, for you. It's when you're winning too much, you take your foot off the gas a little bit.

Kevin and Alan's different reactions to failure

Speaker 1

I need to stop doing that Because you operate really well with your back against the wall, where, when your back is against the wall, I'm in my anxiety zone For sure, and we've kind of been going through that a little bit behind the scenes. So that's what I would say. I think you operate really well from failure. Failure is really good for you, really good for you, but you know that.

Speaker 2

You know that better than I do well, I think more than anything, I was not asking for me. I was asking because I think the contrast between you and I, not only in this but life, is very illuminating for the listeners. It can be. It's been very illuminating for me Because I had no idea I mean 10 years ago, I had no idea that that wasn't the case for everyone and I think most people who do feel the way you feel about failure hide it.

Speaker 1

They don't say like, oh, I really need a W, I feel like a failure, that that's vulnerability, particularly men it makes you feel like you're off course I think that's the best way to explain it is it makes you feel like you're, like you're not going to accomplish it. I think that's probably. We had a conversation recently and I said, alan, one of the best things about working with you there are many wonderful things one of the best things is I have certainty that we're going to win. I'm not worried about whether or not I'm going to be successful, because I just know you'll never stop, which means I'll never stop. But that's a that's because if something was to happen and we would go out of business, you would just start another business Because it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1

You're not thinking about, well, the last one failed. I can't be successful. You know what I mean, and I think that is just such a rare just a rare thing. You would be the comedian who would bomb and then go on stage the next day. It wouldn't matter. That wouldn't be me in the beginning, no way. That would be proof that I can't do this in the beginning.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I appreciate it. It's wild, it's fascinating, and for anyone out there watching or listening, think to yourself which one. Because the way you describe failure in this regard. I feel that way in relationships if Emilia and I like, if she'll, if I were to upset her multiple times in a row or something, I would feel very, very not ignited understandable.

Speaker 1

I think that's normal too, though yeah, I think most people probably have. I don't know, I have that too. I think it's just less than you, I know. If you and Emilia aren't 10 out of 10, you're, it's a struggle bus for me, For sure, I without.

Speaker 2

When we're not great, it feels like I lose my power.

Speaker 1

For sure.

Speaker 2

That's a good way to put it, no, it doesn't mean I can't climb out of it, but it's way harder. It's way harder. I mean, let's say, someone took five grand out of our bank account right now versus Emilie and I were not good. I feel like it would take me a lot longer to climb out of the second one.

Speaker 1

See, I feel like the first one yeah.

Speaker 2

I can have a conversation with Taryn.

Speaker 1

We'll be fine. I gotta go find a way to make that five grand back. That's how my mind goes, but again, of course, right. Where do you feel the most confident? Where do you feel the most confident? Where do you?

Speaker 2

have the most proof, all of that plays into it. Yeah, relationships versus yeah. It comes back to the what's the core wound right Is it? Do you feel like all of you is too much or all of you is not enough?

Speaker 1

Yep, we'll have to do a part two because I know this was a quick one. We've got to go because we have the team call yes and we're a minute late.

Speaker 2

Yes, the team's going to be waiting for us.

Speaker 1

Group coaching. The link will be in the show notes. Nlu listener will take 30% off of the price. It'll end up being $96.60 for however many. What is it? 12 calls, right, six calls, 12 calls, a lot of calls for that price.

Speaker 2

It's very, very, very very affordable it comes to $25 per session.

Speaker 1

I think I cannot verify that right now because my brain is scrambled.

Speaker 2

Silence, I got you.

Speaker 1

Alan is doing. Alan still has spots for coaching. I have spots for coaching as well. I've been doing a lot more podcast coaching, just podcast consulting, where it's not production. So if you're a podcaster, you need help. We can do a one-off session. How much is it per call?

Speaker 2

24 24 dollars per call yeah, 24, 24 something, 24 something rounded 25.

Speaker 1

It's a 25 bargain at Twice, the Place that would be a bargain.

Speaker 2

I feel like we're at an auction 25, 25, 25, 25.

Outro

Speaker 1

All right, we're going to go. As always, we love you, we appreciate you, grateful for each and every one of you, and at NLU, we don't have fans reach out. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University. We love connecting with the Next Level family.

Speaker 2

We mean it when we say family. If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. Everything you need to get a hold of us is in the show notes.

Speaker 1

Thank you again and we will talk to you tomorrow.

Head Shot

Alan Lazaros

Host
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Kevin Palmieri

Host