Next Level University

Can You Have TOO MUCH Certainty??? (1998)

• Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

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Belief without action leads to delusion. In this episode, Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros tackle the fine line between confidence and delusion. They share why some people get stuck in wishful thinking while others push forward despite self-doubt. Does believing in yourself always help, or can it sometimes be a trap? And when does a little delusion actually work in your favor? This raw, authentic conversation challenges your thinking about certainty, self-worth, and success. Tune in and decide for yourself—where do you stand?

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Show notes:
(4:06) Is success about belief or action?
(6:54) The hidden factors behind confidence
(8:04) Why some people rise from good to great
(14:13) Action Vs. Belief: Which one matters more?
(24:01) The power of productive paranoia
(28:33) At NLU, we want you to win! So, we’re giving tools and resources to ensure your success. Join our Monthly Meet-up every first Thursd

Send a text to Kevin and Alan!

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Alan Lazaros

The only reason you won is because he brought you closer to the truth.

Kevin Palmieri

I know, but I just think that most of my success is based on delusion of me not being good.

Alan Lazaros

That's a limiting belief if I've ever seen one.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, but that's what delusion is no, by that definition.

Alan Lazaros

you should stay delusional. You should never know your value. You should never. It doesn't make any sense.

Kevin Palmieri

No, because then I wouldn't be fulfilled and I would always have imposter syndrome and always have limiting beliefs. I'm telling you it allowed me to get further than I would have. I'm convinced of it. Then why hire a coach? Welcome to Next Level University. I'm your host, kevin Palmieri.

Alan Lazaros

And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.

Kevin Palmieri

At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven but no BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love health and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

Self-improvement in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free.

Kevin Palmieri

Welcome to Next Level University, next Level Nation. Welcome back to another episode of Next Level University, where we help you level up your life, your love, your health and your wealth. Today for episode number 1,998. We're creeping up there. Can you have too much certainty? So we talk often about clarity. We talk often about certainty I'm certain you can't. You're certain you can't. Okay, I would go on the opposite end and say I'm certain you can't. You're certain you can't. Okay, I would go on the opposite end and say I'm certain you can.

Alan Lazaros

I'm not actually certain I know Well, I had to go to the opposite.

Kevin Palmieri

Do you think you can have too much clarity? No Right, I agree with that. I think you can have too much certainty, though, and this is why I was on a podcast the other day wonderful person, it was a great, great episode and there was just a couple times we were having a deep conversation and they said you know, I'm not really, I'm not where I want to be right now, but I'm in a better place than I was a month ago, and it's like that's awesome. And they said I just know, eventually it'll work out. And it was towards the end of the episode, and I did feel comfortable saying this to this person because we had a very good relationship going on the podcast, but I wanted to say do you feel like you know it'll work out because you know what to do, or because you think the right things will happen? Where does that certainty come from? Or because you think the right things will happen.

Kevin Palmieri

Where does that certainty come from? Where does that certainty come from? Because one. I think it's a really interesting study. I've never asked somebody that before. I've never gotten an answer.

Kevin Palmieri

I'm just very curious to know what's under that for that person and what signs do you have so far that it's on its way to happening. Because you just said you couldn't pay your bills a month ago. Now you, it was kind of like I still can't, but I'm not worried about it. It's like, well, I know that feels like progress, but what if that's changing? Going back to last episode, what if that's changing perception and not changing behavior? So there's something again. There's something to that, and you've heard me say this a million times law of attraction, universe, higher being, whatever it is that you believe in. I just I always suggest being cautious, because if you put the responsibility into that thing of why you are or not successful, you ultimately are saying, well, it's not up to me and at the end of the day, it is up to you more than it is up to anything else in terms of putting in the action and being consistent and practicing the behavior. So I just think that if, when we started this, I was like I'm certain it's going to work out.

Kevin Palmieri

Would I have learned the things that I needed to learn in order to make them work out? I don't know. Would I have tried to stay as humble as I have tried to stay? I don't know. Would I have gotten entitled faster? I don't know. This is the second day in a row. It's 745 at night. I don't want to be doing this right now. I want to be hanging out and I want to be in bed, honestly, because I'm freaking exhausted. If I believed this was just going to work, there's no way we would have got to 2,000 episodes. We would have just been like ah, dude, honestly, it's not that big of a deal. This episode doesn't matter that much and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't, but it also does. So, yeah, it's an interesting concept.

Alan Lazaros

I have something that I'm super excited to share. Show and tell, yes. So in the past I have been the person who is, I'm certain this is going to work out. I have said those things you have said those things Long term.

Alan Lazaros

Long term. Now let me unpack what's underneath that certainty, because I think some people are saying it without this and I never realized that I was saying it and people didn't know. How could they possibly have known? So it'll make sense in a second. Let me pull this up, please, please, please, make this work. Okay, all right. So what I used to say and I used to say, I'm certain that Kevin and I can build a business together.

Clarity vs. Certainty Discussion

Alan Lazaros

If this is what I didn't say, if we have the right metrics, the right habits, the right tools, we do the right tasks, we implement the right systems, we make the right choices, we have the right tools, we do the right tasks, we implement the right systems, we make the right choices, we have the right skills, we develop the right skills, we align our core values, we have the right resources and we are resourceful. We have the right awareness, the right beliefs, we put ourselves in the right environments with the right influences and we keep our standards high. It's a lot of stuff. And then the bottom of that iceberg is potential. We do have the potential to succeed in building a business and a podcast, and I'm certain of that. If all those things, I just never said the second part I didn't know that no one was calculating all that. No, most people are not.

Alan Lazaros

So when that person says I'm certain it's all going to work out, it's on its way. Are they saying if, if, if, if, if, if?

Kevin Palmieri

if, if I don't think so, I really wish I had the opportunity to ask that question because they would have answered honestly. It wasn't from like an ego place, I think. It was from like a universe, energy, certainty. It wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't from like an entitled ego place, yeah it wasn't arrogant.

Why some people rise from good to great

Alan Lazaros

Well, there's a book called Good to Great by a man named Jim Collins and it talks about it's a 20-year research study of tons and tons and tons of companies from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and same industry, same type of companies, similar products, which ones took off and went from good to great and which ones didn't, and they talked about. So Jim Collins went into the research he says this in the book very famous books in the business space and he said I didn't want it to be leadership. We went in me and my research team went in saying I hope it's not the leader, I hope it's not leadership, it was leadership. Now, what do I mean by leadership? They have a framework that talks about what's known as a level five leader and in this framework it's a triad. There's a couple things, but two things are very striking. One of them is radical ambition, In other words, absolute faith and certainty that this is going to work. And we got this. We can do this Long term, we can do, do this, we can get to the top of this fucking mountain.

Alan Lazaros

Okay, and not? Or? He calls it the genius of the and and productive paranoia in the early days of kevin and i's business career. He was productively paranoid. We'd do a live event. He's like dude, what if it snows? And I'm I never would have thought of that. I had the radical certainty for the vision and that we could do it, which was necessary to keep going, obviously, and you had the humility and the productive paranoia of dude we're fucked if X, Y, Z. And obviously we both had both, more than I think we realized at the time. We had some stuff going for us. I didn't realize, but I think that that's a duality that's very hard.

Alan Lazaros

Self-belief and humility do not come hand in hand that often. I understand why I was coaching someone who I consider very arrogant and I'm not coaching him anymore. But he has such radical certainty and I understand why people consider me arrogant, Because when this dude talks, it's like brother, it's not going to work. Like that man I know because I've done this before and he had some negative things happen with his recklessness and he wasn't that humble about it. And I remember thinking to myself like if that doesn't't humble you, I don't know what is going to humble you.

Alan Lazaros

You need to find someone who's tethered to reality and a lot of people are one or the other, and we talked about in the last episode, behavior and perception. Perception is we're going to make it, no matter what kev. We can get to the top of mount everest. It's been done, we can do it. Even if it's not been done, we can do it. And we better fucking train every day and we better bring extra oxygen tanks and we better have the right jackets and the right footwear. Study frostbite, how to prevent it, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's radical humility and productive paranoia paired with this radical self-belief and vision, and it's very hard to have those two qualities in one person.

Kevin Palmieri

Well, I think to myself, I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if, as a collective, we don't admit how much of success is external behaviors. Again, it's internal and external. I'm not saying it's just external, I'm not saying it's just internal. But Mount Everest is a good example. But also not because obviously most people aren't trying to climb Mount Everest, but your own unique version of Mount Everest, whatever that is, it doesn't have to be the actual one. It could be a mini one, it could be whatever. Whatever it is, yes, you can believe you're capable of it. And that creates the domino effect of you saying, okay, I actually feel like I could climb this mountain.

Kevin Palmieri

Let me research what has to happen. Am I going to increase my cardiovascular health? For sure, that's going to be super important. I'm going to need to strengthen my legs. I'm going to be super important. I'm going to need to strengthen my legs. I'm going to be hiking through the snow, so that's something. I should probably start carrying some weight on my back, maybe on the treadmill at the gym, because I'm going to have an oxygen tank and all that. I've never breathed on an oxygen tank before, so, like I don't know how do I make that happen? Is there somewhere I can do that, like, let me try that. Yeah, you had the belief and then you practice it and then you get more belief. But I just feel like if you just you can't believe more than you act.

Kevin Palmieri

I feel like if you believe more than you act, you get stuck. Just like if you act more than you believe you get. I think you get further, but I think you still get stuck eventually. That's interesting. I don't think I've ever contemplated the second one.

Alan Lazaros

I've definitely contemplated the first one. If you believe more than you act, you end up delulu and I've been there.

Kevin Palmieri

I was believing a whole lot and doing a whole lot of nothing for some time there. It just reinforces the belief. It's like well, I believe I can do it. Why don't you Bel? It's like well, I believe I can do it. Why don't you Belief?

Alan Lazaros

without action leads to delusion. That's a Jim Rohn quote Belief without action leads to delusion. He used to playfully joke. It was a speech. I love it. He says there's a lot of to be enthusiastic. You must be enthusiastic. He says after you jump about, you're going to need a new something to be enthusiastic about when you get under 200 pounds in the gym.

Alan Lazaros

And going to need a new something to be enthusiastic about when you get under 200 pounds in the gym and and he said a man who never once got under 200 pounds, I know seriously his, literally his. He says affirmation without action leads to delusion. I think action creates either belief or humility. You and I believe that If you, every time Kevin gave a speech, almost every time Kevin gave a speech, it went better than he thought it would, so that built belief. There was one time where that definitely did not happen. That was hilarious for me Not ideal.

Alan Lazaros

Honestly, that was funny for me. He did a push-up competition for any new listeners. I almost lost it he had one of the motivational speakers. One of the kids was an aspiring motivational speaker.

Kevin Palmieri

He had him come up and do his speech for him One day, when that kid's a world-class international speaker, maybe he'll remember me little me back in the day.

Alan Lazaros

The other kid almost beat you in push-ups.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, there was a kid who was cranking them out.

Alan Lazaros

I was like oh no, we are in trouble. Here. We are in trouble. What did you get to?

Kevin Palmieri

Do you even remember 50 something? Yeah, that's a lot, man, because I was like I don't know how many I have left in me. I don't know I'm going to lose to this kid. Not only did I bomb the speech, this teenager Is going to beat me at my own competition that might have been the end of the hyperconscious podcast.

Alan Lazaros

That was pretty close, which is before next level you. But action is going to build belief or create humility, so I'd go give a speech and I'd get humble pie. Wow, that went way worse than I thought it was gonna. I need to make sure I prep more next time and kev is like whoa, that went fucking awesome. Nice, I guess I can be a speaker. So I think action tethers you to reality. I do okay action.

Kevin Palmieri

Well, you can't, really you're not going to take action, really without belief, because I was going to say what's gonna?

Alan Lazaros

let's say there's two people how did you do it when you didn't have belief? I borrowed your belief pretty much never once has that landed in eight years. I have no idea what you're talking about. You made me do it, I didn't make you do anything you did not.

Kevin Palmieri

Not, not in a bad way, I was. I was positively influenced to do something that scared me but I thought would be beneficial.

Alan Lazaros

You know I just thought of what that Instagram reel you sent me, where the guy is reading the testimonial of this is the best product ever. And then it's like he's got a gun held to his head, that's a really good one.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, it's funny, that's a really good one.

Alan Lazaros

What was your answer?

Kevin Palmieri

I'm sorry, you positively influenced me to do something that scared me, but I thought would be beneficial.

Alan Lazaros

So you believed that I Believed that you that this was good for you.

Kevin Palmieri

Not even that. No, it was more like I Don't feel, like I'm ready, but I'll try. That requires belief, or just Self abandon.

Alan Lazaros

I'm not kidding. A lot of times.

Kevin Palmieri

I felt like I was walking into my execution for lack of better phrasing, and obviously it's not that serious. One time you were.

Alan Lazaros

Which time the training?

Kevin Palmieri

Oh yeah, jesus bunny meets the blade. The training, oh yeah, that, oh, jesus bunny meets the blade. But honestly, that's a lot of. It was just like okay, here we go. A lot of it was just that I was miserable most of the time. I didn't enjoy it, I didn't want to do it, I wasn't excited, I wasn't motivated. You essentially like, dragged me to a lot of things that you drove, son, just because you're driving doesn't mean you're not being dragged. I had to. I don't want to say that I want something and then, when I get an opportunity, to do it, not do it.

Alan Lazaros

What you're really saying is to save face you gave it a shot.

Kevin Palmieri

Yes, so this is my thought. I was going to say you have two people. Let's say Kevin one, kevin two With you. So far, they look exactly the same, they speak exactly the same, they're exactly the same from an outside perspective. Okay, yeah, I'm with you. One has belief, the other one doesn't have belief. The one who has belief will try, the one who doesn't have belief won't try, and the one who has belief is going to get results just because they do it. Enough that you ever, you ever know somebody who wasn't that good looking of a dude who, yeah, was successful with with women, usually was the dude who just thought it was going to happen.

Alan Lazaros

So he just kept going who was that guy that you said would go up to every girl and ask her to dance or whatever? The kid I used to work with, yeah, bob. Bob wasn't bad. Bob had a lot of belief.

Kevin Palmieri

He wasn't Well. He had a lot of delusion as well. Bob wasn't a bad looking dude but he wasn't in good shape. He was a good looking guy but he was out of shape. He had a beer belly going because he liked to drink. He was a belligerent drunk For sure. And Bob, if you're listening I'm sorry, brother I would say this I mean, we've had these conversations behind the scenes man, one time he went to Las Vegas for like a bachelor party and he just wouldn't answer any of us. He was supposed to be back to work that day wouldn't answer any of us. This dude went on some sort of binge of some sort. But yeah, he didn't care. He's like I'll go up to anybody, I don't care. He's like okay, there's something, there's lessons in that. There's a lesson in that, for sure.

Alan Lazaros

And he had more success than you.

Kevin Palmieri

Definitely, yeah, definitely yeah. I didn't want to go out, do you think?

Alan Lazaros

that that feeds delusion, or do you think like here's the thing, how do you?

Kevin Palmieri

yes, yeah, because you don't have to get. It's almost like there's a if you take a, if you take a hundred shots, you're probably gonna get successful at something. Hypothetically, let's just say but that doesn't mean you're good at basketball. Well, that's. That's what I mean. Is then it reinforces like I'll just keep shooting, I'll just keep shooting.

Kevin Palmieri

Eventually it'll go in again I think that's how it, but that doesn't mean you get to play in the NBA. I saw a clip. I almost sent it to you. And again, gary Vee. Honestly, I have more respect for Gary Vee than I have for most people in the industry, if I'm being honest, because he essentially just tells it like it is. This dude came up to him at a convention and it was pretty funny the way he said it. And the dude's like Gary, I'm looking for my first investor in my company. Nobody will respond to me. I was like how many messages you sending? He's like dude, so many. He's like how many fucking messages are you sending on LinkedIn? How many Dude's like dude? I lost track. How many are you sending? He's like like 25. And Gary looks at the camera. He says 25?

Kevin Palmieri

Dick you, dick Send 100 a night, 100 a night, and he's like you'll get one response. So I think, if this is, I would rather be the guy who has like a little bit of belief and just goes out and takes shots because eventually something will happen, versus versus having delusional amounts of certainty that it's going to happen and then just sitting around and waiting for it to happen. Now, I'm not saying this person I talked to was sitting around waiting for it. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. But if there was a seesaw, they were on more of that side than maybe the. I'm gonna take consistent action. I'm not even gonna say massive action, because I think that's dumb as shit. Consistent, consistent.

Alan Lazaros

I say massive messy action.

Kevin Palmieri

The last thing you need to hear when you're down and out is somebody standing over you saying take massive action. It's like no, no, I'm gonna take a little bit of action, just a little bit. What do you want me to do? You want to quit my job and move? I fucking hate myself right now. Oh, you want me to call in and quit my job. You want to sell my car or live in it? No, no, I'm. I'm gonna buy a book or something. What do you want me to do? I'm gonna blow up my entire life.

Alan Lazaros

I gotta say this people with ridiculously high self-belief cannot give good advice to people without they are dangerous I was dangerous. I didn't know. Dude, you, you gotta understand, though you don't know that you have high self-belief, but at least you admit it. I do now, but I genuinely was naive to it. I'm serious, dude, and honestly, we talked about this last time. This is awesome, by the way. This is us.

Kevin Palmieri

I love this. This is great. Almost to 2,000 episodes. You believe it? That's it too, after 2,000,. It's going to be the last one. We're wrapping it up, so enjoy the last couple episodes.

Alan Lazaros

That's it. Oh man, he's joking, everyone knows, okay. That's why I always have to say just joking, because no one gets my sarcasm anyways. What was I gonna say, was I talking about? Oh, okay, when you have a lot of self-belief, yes, you don't know it because it's unconscious. I didn't walk through life as a kid going. I believe in myself a lot, you just are, and you don't know that anyone else isn't, and they all act like they are because no one wants to, even you and I. When we first lifted together, you acted like the fucking man.

Kevin Palmieri

I am the man at the gym, though. Well, that's the only place I saw you At the time.

Alan Lazaros

Yeah, I mean that's when we first interviewed the first episode of the Hyperconscious podcast. I have it saved on my phone, by the way, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I have it on my to-do list, my most important task list.

Kevin Palmieri

Bust that thing out.

Alan Lazaros

Not right now.

Kevin Palmieri

No, no, no. Eventually though.

Alan Lazaros

Yeah, for sure. Well, I have it on my most important task list to actually save it on my computer on Google Drive, so that we don't lose it, because I'm going to get a new iPhone at some point and I don't want it to get lost in the sauce. Another conversation for another time. When you first interviewed me for the Hyperconscious podcast, you had a lot of quote-unquote confidence in your voice.

Kevin Palmieri

Yes.

Alan Lazaros

And I understand why, because when you're uncertain, sometimes you got to puff up. Mel Robbins did a TED talk that I actually think is pretty good. Honestly, it's pretty good. I don't want to say it's the greatest or anything, but it's pretty good. Mel had a lot of ego in her voice in that talk and I know why. She was scared shitless, but she couldn't get on stage and pretend she was scared. She, instead of being vulnerable, she egoed up, and that's very motivating for some people. I've done that on stage too. When you're scared of judgment, you're like ah, fuck it, let me just so. You egoed up interviewing me because you didn't want to seem not confident around someone who was really confident, for sure. So someone who is really confident has no idea that other people aren't, would you Now? You do though? Yeah, because you told me like you have helped me understand.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

Through triangulation, kevin and I have coached some of the same people. They act more confident with me than they do with kev. It's a whole thing and just people. We've worked with team members different things from the past eight years together.

Kevin Palmieri

We've really we've really figured a lot out because of our different lenses that we look through I have my window slightly open so if you hear the fire truck going by, I think there's a, there's something going on I'm not even kidding.

Alan Lazaros

I thought that was a rooster I thought that was a rooster.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, it's 805 at night. It's like 55 degrees out today, so I had the window open slightly, let the breeze in. So anything I said, some of it was valuable to me. Yeah, for sure. I would say that I think everybody aspires to have that level of belief. So when they hear somebody say something about it, they say, yeah, okay, I could. Some people say, yeah, I could get there. Other people say you are completely different than I am and you don't know me at all, and I think it just depends on the person.

Alan Lazaros

do you think that in the past, when I would say, hey, you could totally do that, you could be an author, you could boom, boom. You do, totally do that, you could be an author, you could boom, boom. Do you think that they said to themselves you don't know me Like inside, you don't really know me yeah, I think it was I either one.

Kevin Palmieri

I don't believe I could do that Two. I just don't want to fucking do that.

Alan Lazaros

I think it was just a list of like just don't want to fucking do that.

Alan Lazaros

I think it was just a list of like, well, yeah, no, I don't want to, though, if you, if you go back to that list at the beginning, that was the a picture of an iceberg, and at the top was your goals. Yeah, and that's what other people can see. External results 2 000 episodes, whatever. It is mountain, and then below it is all the stuff systems, habits, metrics, choices, core values, the right influences, the potential, all of it. Like I don't have the potential to win mr olympia because I'm not built in a way that is easy to build muscle. I'm tall and lanky, so, yeah, I can build muscle, but I can't beat the best bodybuilder on the planet, and that's not genetically in the cards for me, and I think that's a mathematical and scientific truth and I think it would be delusional to think otherwise I agree I agree.

Alan Lazaros

So I asked emilia this years ago. I said do you think there's any value in delusion? I think she asked me actually and I said no, I think delusion is not good in either direction. I know some people who don't believe in themselves enough. I know some people who believe in themselves to an arrogant, extreme, delusional amount. I think that and again I've said this before, I'll say it again you cannot make good choices on inaccurate data. If I, what if Bob, instead of thinking he's super good looking I'm not saying he does, but let's say he just knew accurately where he actually fell he could make more aligned choices based on that. I think it's really, it's really hard to make positive choices, constructive choices, when you don't have accurate data about yourself, others in the world. So, for example, the aura ring kevin and I wear. We get a sleep score every night. If the aura ring was completely inaccurate, it would be useless to us imagine kev thinking he's getting great sleep.

Alan Lazaros

It's all which I am somehow I imagine I somehow hack into kevin's aura account, which I could do, by the way, I'd have to call up a friend or two, but I hack into your aura account please and I change his sleep scores and this dude thinks he's getting 90s, 90ss, 90s, and he's like I don't know man, I kind of feel like shit, that would be useless information.

Kevin Palmieri

I'd rather you have no data than inaccurate data. Okay, kindly, kindly F off. This is my thought. What if you did that for five days and I started and I went to the gym all five of those days because I said you know what? I've been sleeping like shit. Now I'm getting 90 sleep scores. I don't have an excuse anymore not to go to the gym. Then that built the behavior, that delusion was terrible.

Alan Lazaros

You would blow your shit out because you think that you're in and you would build less muscle?

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, but for five days.

Alan Lazaros

Hey, you would build less muscle Five days Because your recovery score matters.

Kevin Palmieri

You ain't building muscle in five days. Yes, you are.

Alan Lazaros

You build muscle every day.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, but like you're not, no, I'm just saying don't fucking science me.

Alan Lazaros

I'm sciencing you. That's asking me not to be me. I want you to be you, but how can I not science?

Kevin Palmieri

you because I'm not. It's not, it's just an example.

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Alan Lazaros

I'm just saying there's, there's a, there's a long-term detriment to that NLU listener. What is happening? I just wanted to jump in here and let you know. If you want to get to the next level faster, we have a free virtual monthly meetup at the first Thursday of every month. You can connect with like-minded people and become a bigger part of this amazing global community. The link to register will be in the show notes.

Kevin Palmieri

Okay, I need a good example. Yeah, there's a long-term detriment, but I'm talking about using it for a very, very, very short-term benefit. To get started, what about this?

Alan Lazaros

So, in this situation, hold on in this situation. Hold on in this situation, real quick In this situation. That means that suddenly the aura is now accurate, if I hacked back in. Hold on. If I hacked back in and made the aura accurate suddenly, then yes, that might be of short term benefit To build a habit, but that's dumb.

Kevin Palmieri

That's not where I saw that going. It's not dumb. If you don't have self-belief, mother goose, you know what you could do get better fucking sleep, son. I know this isn't a great example of that, but all I'm saying is all I'm saying is it could get you going. I have a firm belief. I do think some delusion is good. I do, no, okay, okay, okay.

Alan Lazaros

How much are you worth an hour? That is a very, A very deep personal question.

Kevin Palmieri

Let's not do that, because that's what's your deepest fear. That's a weird one. That's a weird one. I don't want to do that. Okay, go somewhere else with it.

Alan Lazaros

It depends on the utility of the situation. I know it depends.

Kevin Palmieri

But if you're, if you're somebody who's like, yeah, I'm just not that valuable, and then you work harder because of it, I think the reason I believe that is because I was delusional at the beginning. In a way you won't say I was, because you say, well, look at where you made it, but it's like dude, it's not. I had to be somewhat delusional to get here.

Alan Lazaros

I had a moment I do not agree.

Kevin Palmieri

I think you were accurate. I had a moment in the shower today where I was like we're going to record our 2,000th episode in a couple days. That's fucking crazy. I just had that moment of like that's nuts. Yeah, there's no way that was supposed to happen.

Alan Lazaros

What do you mean, man? Okay, you're doing it. Therefore, it was possible.

Kevin Palmieri

Yes, but possible and probable and likely and. Scientifically it was doable. Not alone, though. Yeah, what if you yeah what?

Alan Lazaros

if you? What if you? But I didn't give you delusion, I gave you accuracy.

Kevin Palmieri

What if being around you created delusion in the beginning, which it?

Alan Lazaros

100 did? No, it felt like delusion because you were inaccurate, which is delusion. No, no, no, hold on. This is good, this is good, let's say that you were always capable of this, which is accuracy. You just didn't believe you were, so I didn't create delusion, I created accuracy.

Kevin Palmieri

I don't know. I think some delusion for a very short amount of time is not bad.

Alan Lazaros

By that definition, everyone should be okay with their delusion and not try to think more accurately.

Kevin Palmieri

Very, very small is what I'm saying with, with the hope that your delusion gets you into an arena or a pool that you would not get in without it, and then, yeah, well, that's the paradox of life, right then it creates an opportunity for you to work on it.

Alan Lazaros

You're naive you go into something that you wouldn't have gone into and then you learn. But, dude, the truth of the matter is is that you were always capable of this. You just didn't know that you were so, technically speaking, you're just more accurate than you used to be, and if you you could have started out with this level of accuracy, you would have been better off, not worse off, dude, by that. That's why books are so valuable. They're supposed to eliminate delusion, not create it.

Kevin Palmieri

Some of them create it. If I thought I was good in the beginning, I don't know. You would have done this sooner, dude. No, I wouldn't have listened to you and your shit, no way man Hold on, hold on. I would have told you to pound sand.

Alan Lazaros

This version of Kevin would not have told me to pound sand. Well, like maybe a less evolved version of Kev. But if I had more belief in the beginning, brother, the level of belief you have now is more accurate than the level of belief you used to have. Right, it's more tethered to reality. True or false?

Kevin Palmieri

Some days I wonder.

Alan Lazaros

Some days I wonder that's very clear.

Kevin Palmieri

Okay, you were always capable of this I understand, and maybe this isn't. Maybe I'm me as an example isn't the best way, I don't know, but I don't think it's a bad thing this version of kev, would not.

Alan Lazaros

This version of kev is more accurate about himself, others in the world than kev eight years ago by a significant margin for sure this version of kevin would not have told me to pound sand, even my old version. You definitely would have told me a thing or two about some stuff that I did not understand, but you definitely wouldn't have been like dude, I don't think we can make it to 2000. You'd have been like, yeah, we totally can.

Kevin Palmieri

Well, maybe that's not the best example. There's got to be an example out there where a little bit of delusion creates momentum that you wouldn't get otherwise. Yeah, but at a long-term detriment. Yes, but you're already at a long-term detriment because you're not going to do anything?

Alan Lazaros

If that's the case, why were you trying to tell me that I'm out of shape for the show? The delusion's good if it gets me on stage.

Kevin Palmieri

No, you were delusional in the wrong way. It was the wrong. You were the wrong delusion. You weren't. You weren't the positive one, it wasn't going to help you.

Alan Lazaros

It was going to hurt you. There was no positive delusion yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

I was delusional that I was going to lose.

Alan Lazaros

I fucking won, and that isn't good either, because you ended up losing more muscle than you should have, and having serious issues Don't worry about the fucking eating disorder. It's not about that. And again for anybody out there, I know that's serious.

Kevin Palmieri

But I did have a mild eating disorder for sure. You see how that was bad. Your delusion caused you to do things that were not conducive, but it also caused me to do things that I never would have done.

Alan Lazaros

Well then you shouldn't have done them and you wouldn't have had an eating disorder. But now.

Kevin Palmieri

If I get now, I could get back on stage with that new belief.

Alan Lazaros

But real quick, real quick. Yeah, let's say, instead of being under, you were actually accurate and you knew you could win the show. I didn't, I know. I'm saying if you, if you could be more accurate and you trusted your coach let's say your coach said hey, kev, you can totally win the show, but you have to do xyz to do it. And then he created accurate thinking, which is, by the way, the only reason you won the show. Without your coach giving you the truth, you would have fucking lost, and you know it.

Alan Lazaros

Yeah, that's facts big, big facts right there, for sure, that's the only reason you won is because he brought you closer to the truth I know, but I just think that most of my success is based on delusion of me not being good. That's a limiting belief, if I've ever seen one.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, but that's what delusion is no by that definition.

Alan Lazaros

you should stay delusional. You should never know your value. It doesn't make any sense. No, because then I?

Kevin Palmieri

wouldn't be fulfilled and I would have always have imposter syndrome and always have limiting beliefs. I'm telling you, it allowed me to get. It allowed me to get further than I would have. I'm convinced of it. Then why hire a coach? I didn't hire a coach, you wouldn't leave me the fuck alone.

Alan Lazaros

No, no, no, Justin, your fitness coach, your bodybuilding coach, coach, your bodybuilding coach. He told you kev, you can win this thing. Well, that was different.

Kevin Palmieri

No, it's the same thing he's telling you the truth, you could win, but I had. I had been exercising for 15 years. At that point it was different. I had a ton of belief in myself in the physical. You didn't believe you were going to win the show I didn't believe I was going to win the show, but I believed I could suffer. And and what did he tell you? You?

Alan Lazaros

can win the show if you suffer. Yes, but that's something I already believed in you, didn't believe you could win the show. You just said that.

Kevin Palmieri

No fitness. I believed in fitness. I was already in real when I started my bodybuilding prep. I was already. I already had a six-pack. I was already jacked. I shouldn't have fucking done a prep. I should have just kept doing what I was doing.

Alan Lazaros

How is that any different, Brother? This is the same as the time travel thing.

Kevin Palmieri

No, no, and that's facts too. And that's facts also. I just haven't figured out how to explain it, but I will one of these days.

Alan Lazaros

Look if you're out there. Can you give some context?

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, this is my thought and if you're out there, we're right, alan. Just we haven. We haven't figured out how to explain it yet. Okay, let's say I live in New Hampshire. Right now it's 8.18 pm Eastern time. I hop on the NLU jet fastest jet ever made Takes me an hour to get to California. So I get to California at 7.18 my time, which is 4.18 their time. I just bought two hours, no you didn't you still aged the same amount? I am talking about short term. Short term, you can't.

Alan Lazaros

You can't, brother, you can't. It's a continuum, that's a space-time continuum thing First of all. I got Stephen Hawking right here. You want Stephen to talk to you? No, I don't want Stephen, of all I. I got steven hawking right here you want steven? To talk to you no, I don't want steven to talk to me. All right, he knows. He knows more than he knows more than you do.

Kevin Palmieri

That's facts.

Alan Lazaros

All I'm saying is all I'm saying if that was the case, everyone would be doing that the jet?

Kevin Palmieri

I haven't made the jet yet there doesn't exist it doesn't exist.

Alan Lazaros

That means anyone in california listening right now is of a different time than you. You do realize the time zones are made up. Back in the Civil War times there was like 40 time zones across the US for the railroads.

Kevin Palmieri

It's all made up, my friend, in a 24-hour cycle there's no such thing.

Alan Lazaros

But in my world there is Okay. Well then, you can have the perception of gaining time. What are you going to, benjamin Button? This thing.

Kevin Palmieri

You're going to anti-age? No, I'm only going to do it one time.

Alan Lazaros

You're actually going to age like shit because you're going to be on a plane all the time I'm going to do it.

Kevin Palmieri

One time I'm going to call you. It's 5.15, motherfucker, what time is it there? Oh shit, same time as you. It's 5.15 here, son, and I did so much more work than you because I had 26 hours and you only had 24. Why don't you pound sand your limiting ass beliefs?

Alan Lazaros

And then, when you come back to mass, what's going to happen?

Kevin Palmieri

24 hour cycle's over, so it doesn't matter to me. Back to normal.

Alan Lazaros

When you come back to mass, you lose the same time.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, but that's a different 24 hours. No, it's not. But of course it is. No, it's not.

Alan Lazaros

That's why jet lag's a thing, that's brother it's all good, I'm fired up you literally said to me on this episode, do not science me. I am personally offended. Well, you're sciencing you. Science, math, stem science, technology, engineering, mathematics, business and finance.

Kevin Palmieri

I know we're joking I'm done with the time travel. This isn't about time travel. I promise I'm serious about the fact that I do my belief right wrong and different. Right wrong and different. Logical, emotional, whatever my belief is. A little bit of delusion is good if it gets you off the my belief right wrong and different. Right wrong and different. Logical, emotional, whatever my belief is. A little bit of delusion is good if it gets you off the fence. That's all. That's all. I'm not saying it's a sustainable plan.

Alan Lazaros

I'm not saying it's going to work. What if accurate thinking can get you off the fence? I think it can.

Kevin Palmieri

What if I just?

Alan Lazaros

convinced Kev that he's totally capable of giving a speech, which is true. That would get you off the fence, yeah, but what if I didn't have you oh. Well then Something else would happen, you're holding on to delusion when you could just go think more accurately?

Kevin Palmieri

But that right, there is one of. That's something somebody with a ton of self-belief would say to somebody who doesn't have you, that's fair. That's a fair assessment. That's a fair assessment. That's a fair assessment I needed.

Alan Lazaros

Yeah, it's like I needed, but it wasn't delusional by definition, because it was true, you could give a speech.

Kevin Palmieri

I know, but without you, if we take you out of the equation, then what happens? Then you?

Alan Lazaros

don't give the speech because you're delusional, you think you can't, which is wrong. It's inaccurate.

Kevin Palmieri

What if I was delusional on the other end? It's inaccurate. What if I was delusional on the other end?

Alan Lazaros

What if you're delusional towards action? No delusion is good long term. If that's the case, then what's the point? Let me try to articulate this no, we've got to leave out long term. I'm not talking about long term. You can't leave out long term.

Kevin Palmieri

Long term is life Ask out of a room out of 100 people, how many people are long term?

Alan Lazaros

thinkers Ask out of a room out of 100 people. How many people are long-term thinkers? It depends what long-term is. Are you talking a minute? Are you talking?

Kevin Palmieri

a second? Are you talking an hour? Are you talking a day, a week, a year, doing something for the first time, where you're like, oh shit, I actually did that thing. And then that highlighting or mitigating to a degree a limiting belief. That's on the other side of the delusion.

Alan Lazaros

Like that, the only thing that I will share, and then we'll do what we gotta do. We gotta jump.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, yeah, it is what it is. Are we good? Are you and I good? Yeah, 100%. This is great this is wonderful.

The paradox of delusion and success

Alan Lazaros

It is paradoxical. If you have delusion that gets you to take action, the action will bring a new reality. It will bring you closer to reality. So it's a paradox. Okay, However, that closer to reality could have just been given to you from a mentor ahead of time. I think we are on the same page now, but if you don't have the mentor or the book, or the podcast or whatever.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, that's the thing it's like. Could I have turned my life around at 27 without hitting rock bottom? Yes, was I gonna.

Alan Lazaros

No, probably not, I definitely wasn't. But if you had the right mentors you would have, you wouldn't have needed the rock bottom. That's the facts.

Kevin Palmieri

That's the point of this goddamn podcast. But I never would have looked for mentors if I didn't have rock bottom.

Alan Lazaros

Dude, if you had the right person at the right time and it was available, you would have. Yeah, If you had you, you had NLU and you were open to NLU.

Kevin Palmieri

Yeah, that's the that's, always the that's the and again.

Alan Lazaros

That's the paradox, right? So I am just saying accurate thinking and rationality are really, really critical. Most of the suffering in the world comes from us. Like by this definition, we should be delusional and put leeches on our skin to cure illness Dude. A lot of really bad things have happened because people were wildly inaccurate.

Alan Lazaros

I agree the world is not flat. Leeches do not cure illness Right. There's a lot of things that accurate thinking is really important. It's really important. What did Emilia say? She is more on my end than yours, but also contemplating still, and she definitely agrees. It's a paradox, for sure.

Kevin Palmieri

I 100% agree with that as well. Yeah, I 100% agree with that as well.

Alan Lazaros

This was a very hyper-conscious conversation.

Kevin Palmieri

I enjoyed this one very much. I did yeah. So for those watching or listening, alan and I love each other. We're not really fighting. This is just a heated not even heated, this is just a. This is just a. Heated, not even heated, this is just a. We have conversations like this behind the scenes often.

Alan Lazaros

It's awesome. Like all the time it's nothing like a healthy debate, man, it's all good.

Kevin Palmieri

My question for you is what do you think that's going to be? My takeaway is do where, if at all, do you feel like you have delusion? I think we all do right, and we all have delusion in some way, shape or form.

Alan Lazaros

For sure, the goal is to and if you think you don't, that's your delusion, that's your delusion right.

Kevin Palmieri

Think about where you could identify yours. And then, I don't know, think about, think about the conversation. Is there growth in that type of conversation for you of? I don't know? Is is my delusion ever good? Is it always bad? Again, you don't even have to come up with an answer, but behind the scenes, for eight years, we've been having really cool, deep conversations which have taught us so much, and I feel like that's just so beneficial for humans in general.

Alan Lazaros

My favorite work in the world is coaching people who, yeah, have delusion in the direction of. I love coaching people who are humble, they have work ethic and they don't believe in themselves as much as they should. And when I say should, what I mean is you are capable of so much more than you think. That's my favorite archetype of client to coach, because all I have to do is help you see through these steps, what you can do. You have the potential. It's probably greater than you think and if I can show you the steps, imagine you know what's possible. It's my favorite work in the world.

Helping people see their true potential

Alan Lazaros

I have certain clients. I mean I remember writing down a list of eight to nine goals and then I would remember I was in my car, I was coaching this person years and years and years ago and she achieved every everything on the list. It's like, okay, now what? I'm still coaching her today, and that's my favorite thing in the world and she didn't believe she could achieve a single fucking one of those, right, I mean that's the coolest thing in the world. There's nothing better than doing something beyond what you once thought was possible. Yeah, it is wild as somebody fucking one of those, right.

Kevin Palmieri

I mean that's the coolest thing in the world there's nothing better than doing something beyond what you once thought was possible yeah, it is wild, as somebody who does it pretty often, and I mean that very humbly, not like that's not a flex, it's weird, it's weird as hell it's awesome.

Alan Lazaros

Next level lesson. How would you describe that? What does it feel like? Because I know what it feels like with Emilia. This is beyond what I ever thought was possible for me. Surreal, it's unreal. It's so much gratitude.

Kevin Palmieri

I think surreal is the word for me. It just doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't feel unreal. I don't know what's the difference between surreal and unreal. I don't know. I don't know what's the difference between surreal and unreal.

Alan Lazaros

I don't know, I don't know the definition of surreal.

Kevin Palmieri

Surreal vibes with me, I would say surreal is the best way, but it's also exciting.

Kevin Palmieri

It's exciting because there's always. It's like right, when you think right, when you think it's normal, like right, when you think whatever you're doing is normal, right, when you think it's normal, like right, when you think whatever you're doing is normal, something else happens. It's like oh, that was like the last chapter. It's weird. I don't even know how to explain it.

Kevin Palmieri

There's a dude at my gym, georgie, and he saw me. I've run into him once and we dapped it up and we talked for like five minutes, like a year ago. And I saw him the other day and I ran over and gave him knuckles and he's like dude, you're crushing it. Man, every time I see you, you're getting, you're, you're more jacked, like I wish I would be like you. It's like georgie brother, you're twice my size. What are you talking about? Dude's a stud jacked. It's like what do you weigh right now? He's like 215, 220, what man? You look like a marble, statue, statue. And I said, as weird as this is going to sound, if you could see you like I see you, it would blow your freaking mind.

Alan Lazaros

And you are seeing him more accurately than he is seeing him. Maybe Definitely based on this him. Maybe Definitely based on this conversation. Maybe he has low self-worth and he doesn't know his value.

Kevin Palmieri

But well, no, it's not that I think he's just, he's a bodybuilder. He's never going to be big enough. That's a bodybuilder thing. It wasn't like I'm the worst, it wasn't that.

Alan Lazaros

It was just like I need to get bigger and stronger than I could be. But who sees him more accurately in your opinion?

Kevin Palmieri

You do, I don't know, because I don't see myself very accurately either. It's hard to see self accurately, it is that's the ego. It's hard, but especially in this.

Alan Lazaros

But okay, and again, this is my thought, that's why a coach is so valuable. Yes, that is why a coach is so valuable.

Kevin Palmieri

If that delusion makes him work a little bit harder in the short run, I don't think that's a bad thing. Now, if he does that forever and he's working out because he hates himself and he's like the dude in dodgeball, that's not good.

Alan Lazaros

But you're also presupposing that him seeing himself accurately would make him work out less hard. That's bullshit. No more healthily.

Kevin Palmieri

I want him to go above and beyond.

Alan Lazaros

And then he, just because he doesn't, you're saying that you can't see yourself accurately and work hard to still improve.

Kevin Palmieri

I'm saying you can, but I feel like if you are delusionally under you, work harder yeah, 100%. Feel like if you are delusionally under you, work harder yeah, 100%. That's why you love humble people. That's why we work really well with people that have low self-worth.

Alan Lazaros

Yeah, but they're more effective when they have accurate self-worth.

Kevin Palmieri

I know, but it would never work in the beginning if they had accurate self-worth?

Alan Lazaros

Yes, it would. It wouldn't work if they had inflated self-awareness. There's something to this. Tonight I will begin my 3,000-page thesis on what this is Next level lesson from me is try to see yourself more accurately, because I do believe that that will help you make more informed, intelligent decisions that will be what's best for you and your future.

Kevin Palmieri

Boom, all right. Next Level Live 2025, april 5th. It is from 10 to 4? Yes, Okay, totally virtual. You can get better from the comfort of your own home. If you like this podcast, we go deeper behind the scenes. Speaking of that, tonight at 5 pm eastern standard time, we have a monthly meetup. What is it?

Alan Lazaros

time management. Time management how to more effectively manage your time cool and then we have another round by getting in the nlu jet and time traveling to the to the west coast.

Kevin Palmieri

You gotta go to the west coast, you go east, you actually lose time. It's crazy how that works. I know, I know I didn't make up the rules. That's the way it works. And then the next round of group coaching is starting on April 15th, is that?

Alan Lazaros

true. So by that rationale, people in London are in the future.

Kevin Palmieri

They would be if they left from here and got there faster. Yes, factual, factual Brother.

Alan Lazaros

Brother, no one in London is in the future. They're in the same exact moment as we are right now.

Kevin Palmieri

If they, left from here when you fly listen, you haven't been out of the country before. I'm a well-traveled man. Okay, when you get on a plane, you go across the Atlantic, you experience it. You could come talk to me then.

Alan Lazaros

April 15th. Why do you think when you call someone from London, real quick, you go to London and you call me. It's the same time, same moment.

Kevin Palmieri

You know, I know that I think the difference is I'm thinking on a hyper micro scale and you don't ever think that way Fair, this is where I was bred for this type of thinking. I was bred for this man More people will agree with you unfortunately, well, hopefully, because no, that's bad.

Alan Lazaros

That's bad. More people will think inaccurately due to what you've done here.

Kevin Palmieri

We can work on it together.

Alan Lazaros

We can work on it together.

Kevin Palmieri

We're all getting better.

Alan Lazaros

April 5th.

Kevin Palmieri

I'm going to say it one more time April 15th is the next round of group coaching.

Kevin Palmieri

facts group 18 if you are a podcaster who is looking to level up yourself first. That is what this podcast is all about. We always talk about that level up your podcast. So we take you behind the scenes on what has worked really well for us and we will actually show you the stuff and it's not like it's not the fluffy feel good, it's the real stuff. And then, if you want to turn your podcast into some level of a profitable business, we do all that in group coaching.

Alan Lazaros

Nice.

Outro

Kevin Palmieri

You dig it. Yep, all right, cool as always. We love you, we appreciate you, grateful for each and every one of you and at NLU, we don't have fans, we have family. We will talk to you all tomorrow.

Alan Lazaros

Keep it next level.

Kevin Palmieri

Next level nation.

Alan Lazaros

Thanks for joining us for another episode of next level university. We love connecting with the next level family. We mean it when we say family. If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. Everything you need to get a hold of us is in the show notes.

Kevin Palmieri

Thank you again and we will talk to you tomorrow tomorrow.

Head Shot

Alan Lazaros

Host
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Kevin Palmieri

Host