2 Books That You’ll Probably Hate But NEED To Read (2117)

Hard to read, rich in gold, lessons for the brave and bold. In today’s episode, Kevin and Alan share two life-shaping books they didn’t want to read but are now glad they did. They explore how uncomfortable truths in books can trigger growth, the hidden cost of missed learning, and why mentorship (even through pages) can shift your entire path. Whether you’re chasing big goals or want to make better decisions, this episode is a reminder that sometimes the hardest lessons are the ones we need most.

Learn more about:
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https://calendly.com/alanlazaros/30-minute-free-breakthrough-session?month=2025-04
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https://calendly.com/kevinpalmieri/free-30-minute-podcast-breakthrough-session-with-kevin

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For more information, please check out our website at the link below. 👇

Website 💻  http://www.nextleveluniverse.com

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Show notes:
(1:46) The gateway book
(3:12) Dry but life-changing
(5:09) Books that force self-reflection
(9:46) Mentorship, regret, and missed potential
(10:47) Next Level Dreamliner: The planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy: https://a.co/d/9fPpxEt
(13:33) Books as mentors on paper
(18:43) Think like AI
(19:43) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Chapters

• 1:46 The gateway book
• 3:12 Dry but life-changing
• 5:09 Books that force self-reflection
• 9:46 Mentorship, regret, and missed potential
• 10:47 Next Level Dreamliner: The planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy:
• 13:33 Books as mentors on paper
• 18:43 Think like AI
• 19:43 Outro

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) Out of the many books I have read, I would say that most of them I did not want to read. (0:07) Now, when I reflect on some of my favorite books, those were probably the ones that I least wanted to read, but I most needed to, and now I'm grateful I did. (0:15) And we're going to talk about that today.(0:18) Kevin disagrees with me.

Alan Lazaros

(0:20) I do believe knowledge is power. (0:24) However, he says it's because you tend to take action. (0:28) Even if knowledge is not power, it's only potential power.(0:32) You still need it.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:33) Welcome to Next Level University. (0:36) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri. (0:38) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.(0:41) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven, but no-BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

(0:47) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:53) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

(1:10) Self-improvement, in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:16) Welcome to Next Level University. (1:22) Next Level Nation today for episode number 2,117. (1:27) Two books that you'll probably hate, but need to read.(1:33) Just, we'll take you back real quick. (1:35) Hey, take it easy over there. (1:37) We'll take it...(1:37) Pulling up the book. (1:38) We're going to take it back real quick. (1:40) Alan suggested to me, this was probably in like 2017, I think.(1:46) 2002. (1:47) 2017, to read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. (1:50) And I was like, man, I'm going to listen to it.(1:51) I like listening. (1:52) And I listened to it while I played video games. (1:55) That was how I got into learning, into reading.(1:59) And that was the first book. (2:00) And then from there, there was a lot of other books that Alan recommended. (2:02) And it was like, all right, cool.(2:03) I'll read that. (2:04) I'll read that. (2:04) I'll read that.(2:04) I'll read that. (2:06) And at this point, I don't know. (2:07) I've had the opportunity to listen to a lot of books.(2:10) I like listening versus reading. (2:12) Some nights before bed, I'll read, but I like listening. (2:14) I like to multitask.(2:16) I like to do it when I'm driving or whatever it is that just makes sense to me to optimize for time. (2:23) I believe, did somebody recommend the book to you that I'm going to talk about? (2:29) Yes.(2:30) Oh. (2:32) No. (2:32) Are you talking about?(2:33) I'm talking about not that book. (2:35) Was it B? (2:36) Did B recommend it?(2:38) Yes. (2:39) Yes. (2:40) Yeah.(2:40) Okay. (2:40) Shout out to B. (2:41) Shout out to Bianca.(2:42) The book that I suggest, that you're probably going to hate because it's boring as shit. (2:50) And there are a lot of chapters and it's the same over and over and over and over and over again. (2:56) It is called The Art of Thinking Clearly.(2:59) And it is by, please hold. (3:03) Oh, we just went by it. (3:04) Rolf Debelli.(3:07) And it is all about the cognitive biases. (3:12) Yeah. (3:12) That's like the entire book is just all about cognitive biases.(3:16) And it's boring as shit. (3:17) And it's not very entertaining. (3:19) And it's, it's not very fun.(3:21) And it's like the best way to explain it is it's like a stale piece of bread.

Alan Lazaros

(3:28) Well, the reason why it sucks to read is because it makes you realize how unintelligent you are. (3:32) That's not it for me.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:34) For me, it's just because it's just like, it's the same energy the whole time. (3:39) There's no ups and downs. (3:40) It's just number 27.(3:45) Oh, it's just that over and over and over again. (3:49) Now in retrospect, a hundred chapters. (3:51) Yeah.(3:51) A hundred, a hundred chapters. (3:53) That's probably, that might be my favorite book ever of all time. (3:56) Did that book not make you feel like you made a lot of terrible choices?(4:00) I don't know, man. (4:01) I don't know. (4:01) That's not the way I think.(4:04) I don't look back and regret like you do really at all. (4:10) It's weird. (4:12) It's not constructive.(4:14) I don't know. (4:15) I don't, I mean, it's done. (4:17) What the, what, what good is me beating myself up over it going to do?

Alan Lazaros

(4:20) Well, beating yourself up is not good, but, but acknowledging, wow, I made some really terrible choices. (4:25) Yeah, no, that's a fucking idiot.

Kevin Palmieri

(4:26) Yeah, yeah, for sure. (4:27) But like, I know that, but I'm not, I don't go dig into like, hmm, let me get the tweezers and see what this piece was.

Alan Lazaros

(4:33) Some people don't like, one time Amelia recommended a book called Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess to her, a couple of her family members recommended it. (4:40) I think she bought it for them and they texted her. (4:42) So you think I have a mental mess, huh?(4:44) And it's like, yeah, of course. (4:46) Well, yeah, we all do. (4:47) Everyone has a mental mess.(4:48) Right. (4:48) So it's like, and if you think you don't, I mean, you definitely do. (4:53) But a lot of books are very confronting in terms of the identity piece.(4:57) For sure. (4:59) For sure. (4:59) Is, is there a book that made you feel, I think the main reasons we don't read books is because they make us feel terrible about ourselves.(5:09) Like The Fifteen Invaluable Laws of Growth by John Maxwell, it's behind me. (5:14) When I first read that book, I was like, oh, damn. (5:20) Damn, I wasn't doing that.(5:22) Like, if I had known that when I was a kid, are you fucking kidding me? (5:26) That's not, it doesn't really happen to me. (5:29) But the opportunity cost is insane.(5:31) Like, if I could show you a version of you that read that book at 20 and actually took it in versus didn't, it's not even close. (5:39) It's, it's just like an investment conversation. (5:41) It's like you start your 401k at 20, you ended at 40, someone starts at 40 and goes forever.(5:45) They never catch you. (5:46) Whoever starts it earlier, just, is it just, you don't think an opportunity cost? (5:54) It's, it's, it's not, it's done.(5:58) It's done. (5:59) Well, by that rationale, we would never learn history. (6:02) The reason we learn history is so we can learn from it.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:04) Well, I think there's a difference between, yeah, but I think learning in that regard is more constructive than me. (6:10) Like, I know I wasn't optimal. (6:12) I didn't know.(6:13) I didn't know better yet.

Alan Lazaros

(6:15) But isn't there like a, damn, I wish someone had taught me. (6:20) No, not really. (6:22) No, no, no.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:25) I'm sure people probably did.

Alan Lazaros

(6:27) Well, by that rationale, why learn anything more in the future? (6:29) If you're not going to regret it, then why, why even, you know what I mean? (6:32) Because now I know there are things that you're going to kick yourself for in the future, for sure.(6:38) Of course.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:39) All of us, of course, of course. (6:41) But what, but I'm, it's not going to be like, I'll kick myself and I'll get on with it. (6:44) That's, I think that's just the way you, what do you do differently?

Alan Lazaros

(6:48) So you kick yourself and then you get on with it. (6:49) Do you learn more? (6:50) So for example, if I read a book that like the 15 invaluable laws of growth, I read it 10 years ago.(6:58) I was like, Whoa, that would have helped. (7:01) That would have been very helpful. (7:03) And then I went, what else am I missing?(7:06) And I went and read more books to make sure that I'm not missing the information. (7:10) There has to be a level of urgency. (7:13) I think it takes humility to go.(7:15) What else am I missing? (7:16) Like, what else am I missing? (7:18) Because otherwise you're basically just winging it and okay with that.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:22) I think you just have a different, you and I just have different relationships with regret. (7:28) I think you talk so often about poisoning your brain. (7:32) I never really thought about that.(7:33) Even to this day. (7:34) It's like, I don't, I don't know if I regret it. (7:38) If you knew what you gave up, you would.(7:40) I don't agree. (7:42) No, no. (7:42) That's a conversation where you and I know, um, here's the thing.(7:46) This is, this is the test, but you don't know what you've given up. (7:49) Even if you told me, I don't know.

Alan Lazaros

(7:53) Seriously, by that rationale, then why, why even read books? (7:58) Because if you're not going to regret like, because I want to get better at the time.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:03) I didn't want to get better.

Alan Lazaros

(8:05) But so you didn't know the value of getting better. (8:07) If you did, you would have, this is what, this is the knowledge for his power conversation.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:10) If you knew, I wouldn't have known unless I had a goal that forced me to know it. (8:17) There's too many ifs.

Alan Lazaros

(8:19) Yeah. (8:19) But, and I think now there's enough, the thing though, if, if kids knew what they were leaving on the table by not reading books, they would all read books like that for sure. (8:31) That's like, um, but how do you get them to know?(8:33) That's exactly it. (8:34) You, you do have this conversation. (8:36) You have this uncomfortable conversation of, Hey, I know you, your parents said, oh, it'll be cool.(8:42) It'll be all good. (8:43) No, it won't. (8:44) It's going to be terrible.(8:45) Like how many people, unless they're leaving you a boatload of money, right? (8:49) How many people do you know who, who have not a fulfilling life that they thought would be? (8:55) How many, what statistically do you think, how many people do you think out of a hundred statistically have a worse life than they had hoped?

Kevin Palmieri

(9:03) Oh man. (9:07) 80%.

Alan Lazaros

(9:07) Those 80% if they had had the right mentor at the right time, it would have changed fucking everything.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:15) That is a core belief. (9:16) But there's a reason they have to, you have to reason to have a mentor. (9:20) No, you don't.(9:21) Of course you do. (9:23) Well, you're just going to go ask somebody to give you all the hard truths just because Hey, fuck me up with the good stuff. (9:29) No, no way.(9:31) Well, you've always looked for mentors because you've always had a reason to. (9:35) I never looked for mentors because I never had a reason to.

Alan Lazaros

(9:38) This is the conundrum of, if you don't have, if you don't believe in yourself, you won't have goals. (9:42) If you don't have goals, you won't get mentors. (9:44) If you don't get mentors, you won't believe in yourself.(9:46) It's, it's a whole thing. (9:49) Yeah. (9:49) And I know that's not the point of this episode, but it's good.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:52) It's good.

Alan Lazaros

(9:52) It's good.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:53) Well, you very, very fortunate where you've ended up as someone who, as someone who did not have a ton of self-belief, it's like, that's why I think you and I think differently. (10:05) I don't, it wouldn't, I don't think it would have done that much for me because I didn't believe I could do it anyway. (10:11) And I didn't have goals that would have forced me to build that belief.

Alan Lazaros

(10:14) I think that's a big, but if someone had gotten through to you and had what you valued, you would have built belief. (10:22) It would have changed everything. (10:23) Like it would, the science of achievement, it would have changed everything, brother.(10:27) The right mentor at the right time would have changed everything for you. (10:29) Now, I'm not saying you wouldn't listen to us, but someone who had, like I had, so for those of you who don't know, when Kevin and I first reconnected, I had a beautiful girlfriend. (10:40) I, I got to work from home.(10:42) I was in great shape. (10:44) Like I had what you valued and that's what kind of drew you to me. (10:48) Hello, hello, hello, NLU listener.(10:51) Thank you as always for listening to Next Level University. (10:54) Real quick, I just want to jump in and let you know about the Next Level Dreamliner. (10:58) This is a journal that I use every single day.(11:01) Achieve your dreams 90 days at a time. (11:04) It breaks down your dreams into goals, milestones, and daily habits. (11:09) We hope you enjoy it.(11:10) The link will be in the show notes. (11:14) If someone had had what you valued and then said, hey, by the way, these books are actually how I did it. (11:20) Like, what was your favorite car growing up?

Kevin Palmieri

(11:23) My favorite car growing up, probably like a Mustang.

Alan Lazaros

(11:26) Okay, nice. (11:27) So if someone pulled up in a Mustang and they had a beautiful girlfriend and they were jacked, they would say, Kev would be like, fuck, nice. (11:35) And if they said, hey, you know, Kev, the reason I have all this is actually because of this book, Algorithms to Live By, then you would have been like, okay, interesting.(11:45) It would have been something, of course, right? (11:47) But the reason I think it works so well with you is because I actually had a goal.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:52) But I didn't just start out with goals, right? (11:56) No, but I mean, for me, I saw you and it was like, oh, interesting. (12:00) I have goals that align with what he's already created.

Alan Lazaros

(12:04) Well, as a kid, wanting a Mustang and a beautiful girlfriend and being jacked were your goals, so unconsciously or consciously, whatever. (12:11) And if he pulled up and said, hey, this book, and it was someone you actually admired, someone you really did look up to, that would have changed everything. (12:19) That's fair.(12:19) And I know that because that's how people change. (12:23) There is no super successful person who's never had a mentor. (12:27) That does not exist.(12:28) No, definitely. (12:29) Yeah. (12:30) So, I mean, that's got to be one of the most unsung things in the world.(12:33) What are books? (12:34) They're just mentors on paper. (12:36) You don't have to reinvent the wheel.(12:38) By that rationale, let's go back to when there was no dictionary, there was no chat GPT, there's no Google, there's no research. (12:45) You go back to the Dewey Decimal System in the library, you go back to no internet. (12:50) Everything you and I know right now is based on other people's work.(12:56) Everything that the listeners learn from us is based on an accumulated compound effect of knowledge. (13:02) The reason we know how to ship things on Amazon in one day is because of the logistical compound effect of knowledge accumulated over time and technology, right? (13:11) So, and again, at the end of the day, yeah, the book will change your life.(13:20) That book changed your life. (13:22) Definitely.

Kevin Palmieri

(13:22) The art of thinking clearly. (13:24) But maybe not in the way that you think. (13:27) I don't know if it changed my life in the way that maybe books have changed yours in the same way.(13:32) It changed my life in every way, but not maybe to the same. (13:36) If we were making like an ingredient list, I think it might be different. (13:39) Let's talk about it.(13:41) For me, it, I don't know. (13:44) It's, I realized the opportunity to take all that knowledge and then live life differently. (13:48) I don't regret not having that knowledge and not living life differently before, I guess.(13:54) You know? (13:55) Like what's, what's the order for you? (13:57) Are you like, oh my God, I've been fucking up.(14:00) Yeah, of course. (14:01) Yeah. (14:01) See, I don't, it doesn't, that's not the way my mind works.(14:04) At least that's not the way I react. (14:05) It's like, oh my goodness, I know so much more than I did yesterday.

Alan Lazaros

(14:07) Do you think an opportunity cost?

Kevin Palmieri

(14:10) Not in the past. (14:10) That might be what this is.

Alan Lazaros

(14:15) You do more now than ever, but you didn't used to think an opportunity cost. (14:19) No, but in my mind, it's not real because it's done.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:24) No, no, that's not. (14:26) Hold on. (14:27) Well, you can't go back and recoup the cost.(14:30) No, but you can from now on. (14:32) That's what I'm doing. (14:36) Remember awareness was my fucking problem.(14:38) The second I have awareness, I tend to take action pretty quick. (14:41) It's like, oh my goodness, everything. (14:44) That's, that's gone.(14:45) I'm not getting that back.

Alan Lazaros

(14:47) I think part of this, and again, the old me probably wouldn't have brought it up because it's not relevant to the episode, but I think it is relevant to everyone. (14:56) Opportunity cost is predicated on a future potential. (15:00) So for, what's a good example of this?(15:04) This is why people don't get upset when someone who's 94 passes away. (15:09) They get upset, but not as upset.

Kevin Palmieri

(15:11) That was the wrong phrase.

Alan Lazaros

(15:12) It's not as much as a surprise. (15:13) Yeah, because there's not as much opportunity cost. (15:18) 94 is a great life.(15:20) Whereas someone who dies at fucking 28, like my dad, it's, oh my, we just lost what could have been. (15:28) You see, that's, that's opportunity. (15:29) So when I read a book that no one ever recommended prior, because it turns out no one was recommending books, it's like, oh shit, I just lost 20 years of what could have been better choices.(15:45) And that's okay, but it's, maybe you can't calculate how much your future got worse. (15:50) I definitely can't. (15:52) I definitely can't.(15:52) That's probably the only difference is, dude, rich dad, poor dad at 26 versus at 16. (15:58) I mean, dude, it wouldn't even be fucking close.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:01) But then my mind goes, but it's better than 36. (16:05) Agreed. (16:05) Well, that's the case.(16:07) It's well, at least your car has four tires, right? (16:09) So it's both. (16:10) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.(16:11) But I think for most of my life, it's like, I just was, I never felt enough. (16:15) So the last thing I'm going to do is be like, well, of course you didn't feel enough. (16:19) You waited 10 years to read this fucking book.(16:20) It's like, yeah, I did. (16:22) And I, now I'm crushing it more than I ever have. (16:26) And I want to focus on getting better in this season.(16:30) But again, maybe that's me thing. (16:32) I don't know. (16:32) Maybe, maybe I'm the weird one in that.(16:34) I don't know. (16:34) I don't know. (16:35) You are unique in that for sure.

Alan Lazaros

(16:36) Well, I think I'm also unique in the regret thing. (16:40) Most people don't want to feel regret, but I also think that that holds them back from the lessons that come from it. (16:45) Like I regret drinking so much.(16:48) I regret some of my poor choices because not in the sense I was a terrible human and berate myself, like just Alan, you got to understand the implications of your decision-making paradigm. (17:01) And the fact that you made so many poor choices really stopped you from achieving a lot of your dreams. (17:06) And I can actually calculate that.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:07) I don't think that's the, that's the pieces. (17:09) Your thing is to maximize your potential. (17:12) So anything you did in the past that stopped you from maximizing your potential, I regret that ain't my thing.

Alan Lazaros

(17:20) That's how much less wealth you'll build and how much less longevity you'll have.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:25) It's still way more than I ever thought it was going to be. (17:27) That's the thing. (17:28) Oh.(17:29) That's the thing. (17:29) It's all based on freaking perception. (17:32) Don't listen to me in this episode, but also, I don't know if you should listen to Alan either.(17:36) I'm not really sure.

Alan Lazaros

(17:37) All right.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:38) Listen to both and draw your own conclusion.

Alan Lazaros

(17:39) Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:39) Listen to both and take them both with a grain of salt or sand or whatever it is. (17:43) What is your book?

Alan Lazaros

(17:44) Because we're out here judging. (17:46) Algorithms to Live By. (17:46) Yeah, here we go.(17:47) Algorithms to Live By, The Computer Science of Human Decisions. (17:50) This is a book that, again, to the title, it is unbelievably important. (17:57) The way that machines, AI makes choices is actually extremely sound.(18:03) That's why everyone's afraid of AI, because it's smarter than us. (18:07) Not everyone, but most people. (18:09) And it will be eventually smarter than everyone.(18:13) This book will help you make better choices, but it's going to be boring as hell. (18:19) And yes, it's going to be hard to get through. (18:21) When I first recommended it to Kev, he said, dude, you think like this?(18:25) And I said, brother, you don't? (18:27) And it's because as a computer engineer, of course, I think this way. (18:31) I can't imagine thinking any other way.(18:33) How do you make your choices? (18:34) It's flip a coin. (18:35) You don't calculate.(18:36) Yeah, flip a coin, right? (18:37) So it's going to be unbelievably powerful. (18:39) It will change your life.(18:40) Bear with it. (18:41) It's boring as shit.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:42) All right. (18:43) So the two books are The Art of Thinking Clearly and Algorithms to Live By. (18:47) Those are the two books.(18:48) Cool. (18:49) All right. (18:49) If you're looking for next level books with next level people, we have book club every single Saturday, 1230 Eastern time.(18:58) Alan runs it. (18:59) We've done, by we, I mean Alan, because I haven't. (19:02) How many?(19:03) Four and a half years. (19:04) Four and a half years, every single week. (19:07) Right now they are reading Willpower by Roy Baumeister and John Tierney, I believe are the authors.(19:15) And it's a good opportunity to get behind the scenes, level up, maybe read books that you might not have read on your own, but now you're in a community of people. (19:25) There's a little extra necessity, extra accountability. (19:27) Join us if you're interested.

Alan Lazaros

(19:28) I promise you book club will change your life. (19:30) I promise. (19:31) Knowledge will change your life.(19:33) These books are unbelievable. (19:34) We've read 21 books. (19:36) This is our 21st actually.(19:37) So we've read 20 books. (19:39) And we only pick books that help you reach your potential.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:42) Boom. (19:42) Cool. (19:43) All right.(19:43) As always, we love you. (19:44) We appreciate you. (19:45) Grateful for each and every one of you at NLU.(19:47) We don't have fans. (19:48) We have family. (19:48) We will talk to you all tomorrow.(19:50) Keep it next level. (19:52) Next level nation. (19:55) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University.(19:59) We love connecting with the next level family.

Alan Lazaros

(20:01) We mean it when we say family. (20:03) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. (20:06) Everything you need to get ahold of us is in the show notes.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:10) Thank you again, and we will talk to you tomorrow.