Is Delusion Ever A Good Thing (2166)

Can believing a little lie about yourself help you grow? In today’s episode, Kevin and Alan unpack the fine line between healthy confidence and harmful delusion. Through personal stories, from childhood lessons to ego-shaking moments in adulthood, they reveal why truth can hurt, but also why it’s the foundation of real progress. This honest, back-and-forth conversation will challenge the way you think about self-belief, accuracy, and what it takes to reach your full potential.

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Show notes:
(2:22) Is delusion ever a good thing?
(4:45) Ego deaths and the role of feedback
(12:01) When too much truth feels like trauma
(16:04) Why failure can reveal the real you
(19:48) Next Level Dreamliner: The planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy: https://a.co/d/9fPpxEt
(33:07) The matrix, the red pill, and seeing life clearly
(37:26) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Chapters

• 2:22 Is delusion ever a good thing?
• 4:45 Ego deaths and the role of feedback
• 12:01 When too much truth feels like trauma
• 16:04 Why failure can reveal the real you
• 19:48 Next Level Dreamliner: The planner, agenda, journal, and habit tracker to rule them all. Get a copy:
• 33:07 The matrix, the red pill, and seeing life clearly
• 37:26 Outro

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) If you learned how to ride a bike, you probably learned how to ride a bike using training wheels, and that may have created some level of delusion and or distortion. (0:09) Is that a bad thing? (0:11) Alan thinks so.(0:12) I do.

Alan Lazaros

(0:14) I believe that seeking accurate truth and having an accurate mental map will make sure you don't drive yourself off a cliff in life, metaphorically.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:24) Welcome to Next Level University. (0:27) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri. (0:29) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.(0:32) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven but no BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

(0:38) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:45) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

(1:01) Self-improvement, in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free. (1:07) Welcome to Next Level University.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:13) Next Level Nation, today for episode number 2,166, we're doing another part 2 because we suck. (1:22) Is delusion ever a good thing? (1:24) So, yesterday's episode, we talked about the difference between real self-esteem and gifted self-esteem.(1:29) And Alan and I had a preamble in this because he's like, dude, I don't feel like you actually believe what you're saying. (1:35) I think you're a hypocrite, is what he said gently, not in a bad way. (1:40) It was good.(1:41) And I said, I think that there can be a level of delusion that is created by not giving somebody all of the feedback at once, as opposed to intentionally creating delusion. (1:54) Go ahead. (1:55) That is not delusion.

Alan Lazaros

(1:57) That is allowing an existing delusion. (2:00) It's like a balloon. (2:01) You're just deflating the balloon.(2:03) This is known as an ego death. (2:05) Continue. (2:09) That's my thought, to start.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:12) What did the training wheels have to do with any of this? (2:15) I don't know. (2:16) He told me to say the training wheels thing.(2:18) Because training wheels are creating the fact that you think you can ride a bike even though you can't yet without the training wheels. (2:27) Yeah. (2:27) Good.(2:27) Okay.

Alan Lazaros

(2:28) Kevin believes training wheels is a good metaphor for delusion or distortion. (2:34) I think that it's only delusion or distortion if you think you're great at riding a bike and don't know that you're in training wheels. (2:40) It's like if you were put on a bike and then I somehow quickly put on training wheels without you knowing it, and then you're like, hell yeah, I'm the best bike rider ever.(2:50) That's distortion and delusion. (2:52) Whereas if you use them as a tool to learn how to get comfortable on a bike, that's a tool. (2:59) It's using my AirPods to listen to music.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:02) What's the difference between false certainty and delusion?

Alan Lazaros

(3:05) Same to you? (3:06) Great question. (3:07) Hold on.(3:08) Hold on. (3:08) Let me think. (3:10) False certainty and delusion.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:12) Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(3:13) Same? (3:13) Same. (3:15) Okay.(3:16) Because in one of them, you're aware that you have training wheels. (3:19) The other one, you're not aware. (3:20) You think you're great at riding a bike and it's not you.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:23) Do you think it creates a surplus of confidence that allows the person to take the training wheels off? (3:32) No. (3:33) I think when they take the training wheels off, they're going to crash.(3:36) They are going to crash. (3:37) But I think there's a short time where they're like, I got this.

Alan Lazaros

(3:40) What is the value of that short time? (3:42) You try it. (3:44) Yeah, but- Long grass.(3:45) Your entire thesis is predicated on someone not continuing to climb. (3:51) It's almost like you think delusion is going to somehow get people to try things they normally wouldn't, when in reality, if they thought accurately, they would try. (4:00) Okay.(4:01) Let me give you an example. (4:02) And this is good, by the way, healthy discord. (4:04) Kev gave his first speech and you thought you would bomb.(4:10) In an ideal world, you would have been accurate. (4:12) It went way better than you thought. (4:13) Right?(4:14) Yeah. (4:15) Okay. (4:16) In an ideal world, you would have been accurate.(4:19) If you were accurate and knew it would go well, you'd still do it. (4:21) Right? (4:23) For sure.(4:23) Okay. (4:24) I thought it would go well and it didn't. (4:26) I still did it.(4:28) Neither one of those were necessary. (4:31) I didn't need to think it was going to go well and then bomb. (4:34) I could have thought it was going to bomb and bombed.(4:39) We just don't think accurately and our ego can't handle it. (4:45) That's really what it comes down to. (4:48) Good.(4:49) Good. (4:50) When I say an ego death, what I mean is what you thought about yourself is not true. (4:56) So Kev went to a circus and wanted to win a teddy bear for his wife.(4:59) And he's like, I'm first team all state, baby. (5:01) I was all-star baseball player. (5:03) Break a couple of these fucking milk jugs.

Kevin Palmieri

(5:05) It shouldn't be budded, but a light work for me. (5:08) Terrible. (5:09) Embarrassing.(5:10) So you had three tries and just struggled? (5:13) No. (5:13) Struggling is an understatement.(5:14) It was fucking terrible. (5:16) I couldn't hit anything.

Alan Lazaros

(5:17) Bounced it a couple of times. (5:18) That's an ego death. (5:19) So your ego, aka delusion, you thought you were an all-star baseball player still.

Kevin Palmieri

(5:24) My ego has been destroyed.

Alan Lazaros

(5:25) The truth is you haven't thrown a fucking baseball in 20 years and you kind of suck. (5:30) And that's the truth. (5:32) Couldn't you have been accurate and still decided to try anyway?

Kevin Palmieri

(5:38) But that's, I think the thing that I'm getting hung up on is the whole try thing. (5:51) If the delusion is based on self-belief, not self-esteem, I think it will force somebody to continue doing it. (5:59) I think it can be a really good launch pad.(6:02) Hold on. (6:02) Hold on.

Alan Lazaros

(6:05) If the delusion was based on self-esteem, not self-belief? (6:08) Opposite. (6:09) Self-belief, not self-esteem.(6:11) In the context of this, self-belief is competence in achieving something externally. (6:19) Self-esteem is how you see yourself internally and how you feel internally. (6:25) All right.(6:25) Say it again.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:26) I believe if it's from a self-belief perspective and it creates a little bit of delusion that forces you to try something that you wouldn't have tried before. (6:39) But there's something to it.

Alan Lazaros

(6:42) Okay. (6:42) Assuming... (6:43) I figured this out.(6:43) I figured this out. (6:44) Assuming you don't try without it.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:46) Yeah. (6:46) Which means you're not accurate. (6:48) But this is based upon the fact that we've said this millions of times.

Alan Lazaros

(6:51) Nobody's accurate. (6:52) I know. (6:53) Okay.(6:54) So what you're saying, but if you were accurate, you'd try.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:58) I know. (6:58) But what's more realistic? (7:01) Everybody's going to be accurate or there's going to be a level of delusion that facilitates...

Alan Lazaros

(7:04) There's plus or minus error in everything. (7:06) Okay. (7:07) So let's say you think you're a great...(7:13) No, you don't think you can be a speaker. (7:15) Facts. (7:16) So then I delude you into thinking you can be a speaker.(7:20) Facts. (7:20) Okay. (7:21) And then you go give a speech and it goes really well.(7:23) I was more accurate than you, which is why you did it. (7:26) I didn't distort and say you're the best speaker in the world. (7:32) Hmm.(7:33) The delusion that you're talking about is actually getting closer to accuracy. (7:37) And accuracy is why you try.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:40) What if...

Alan Lazaros

(7:40) You're not going to go to the moon if you don't think you can. (7:42) What if... (7:43) But you're also not going to go if you think it's impossible.(7:47) Wait, what if the reason... (7:48) That's the same thing. (7:50) Okay.(7:51) There's a percent error in life. (7:53) If we didn't think we could go to the moon, we never would have, metaphorically. (7:58) Apparently, there's some people who still think we didn't, but whatever.(8:03) Metaphorically, if you think you can do it very easily with very little effort, that's delusion. (8:07) If you think you can never do it, no matter what, that's also delusion. (8:10) Accuracy is usually found after the fact.(8:13) And what you're trying to say is it wouldn't have happened unless we were delusional on the gate. (8:16) No, that's not true. (8:17) What if we were accurate out of the gate?(8:18) Which is impossible. (8:19) I realize that. (8:21) Right.(8:21) That's what I'm saying. (8:22) But you can be closer and closer and closer and never get there. (8:25) This is the problem.(8:27) I think about this all the time. (8:28) I believed in you a ton, more than anyone else, in my opinion. (8:32) I believed you could be a successful podcaster.(8:35) I believed you could be a successful business owner. (8:36) I believed you could be a successful speaker. (8:38) I believed you could be amazing.(8:40) I was right. (8:42) Now, some of that was based on my own delusion. (8:46) I did think you were better than you really were, in hindsight, with love.(8:49) But some of it was true.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:51) A lot of it was fucking true. (8:53) But how much credit do I get for closing the gap on your delusion by effort I put in? (8:59) I thought you were wrong.(9:00) I worked extra hard to work on those limiting beliefs. (9:06) But you got closer to accurate.

Alan Lazaros

(9:08) You created delusion on the other end. (9:10) That's my point. (9:11) But it got you closer to five.(9:12) It got you closer to accurate. (9:14) That's fair. (9:15) Yeah, which is maybe why I did it in a weird way, without knowing it.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:20) I remember, for some reason, I want to tell a story. (9:22) Will this land at all? (9:23) I don't know.(9:24) Honestly, I don't know. (9:25) I was thinking about this before bed the other night. (9:27) When I was playing Little League Baseball, we were on an all-star team and or like a travel team.(9:34) Yeah. (9:34) And we show up to this fucking stadium. (9:37) And we're playing the best team in the league.(9:40) And they have a fucking cake. (9:42) The game hasn't even started. (9:44) They have a fucking cake.(9:45) They pull it out and they're celebrating in the parking lot before. (9:49) Are you kidding? (9:49) We kicked their ass.(9:51) Really? (9:51) We kicked their ass. (9:53) And the whole team was crying.(9:54) They didn't give us the fucking cake.

Alan Lazaros

(9:58) I love that story.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:59) That's great. (10:00) I think that's a really good example.

Alan Lazaros

(10:01) Yeah, because they were arrogant.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:02) They went in arrogant. (10:03) They were delusional on the other end.

Alan Lazaros

(10:05) Which isn't good. (10:07) What if they were accurate and were like, hey, this is going to be a fight, but we're going to find a way to win.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:10) Well, I think that's more the parent's fault than anybody's. (10:14) These kids are 13 years old. (10:16) They're not going to stop and shop to buy a fucking cake.(10:18) That was their parents, for sure. (10:19) Yeah. (10:19) They created and instilled delusion in the wrong way.(10:22) Agreed.

Alan Lazaros

(10:23) And you're arguing that delusion can be right. (10:25) I'm saying closer and closer to accurate is always better.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:28) Well, I think my assumption on this would be, let's say somebody starting at zero. (10:34) No self-belief, no self-worth. (10:36) I give them a little, hey, you're way better than you think you are.(10:40) But that's not delusion. (10:42) They are better than they think they are. (10:44) So that's where we're off.(10:46) Mm-hmm.

Alan Lazaros

(10:47) Okay. (10:48) You're actually getting them closer to the truth. (10:51) You fucked up my whole swag on this episode.(10:55) That's all I got. (10:56) For anyone out there watching or listening, we like to have these healthy discords because Kevin and I have very different perspectives on topics that I think are really important. (11:06) We started doing this like a month ago.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:09) Like this.

Alan Lazaros

(11:09) I have gotten great feedback. (11:10) I know. (11:11) I dig it.(11:11) I dig it. (11:12) Cole loves it. (11:13) Bunch of my clients.(11:15) And I hope everybody likes it, but if you don't, I apologize. (11:20) I think it's important. (11:21) I think it's good to see both sides of the coin.(11:23) And I think you and I are mature enough to handle it in a way that's respectful.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:29) I'm trying to think if there was ever... (11:33) I don't know. (11:34) I think the level of truth you face should be based on the level of truth that you're capable of facing.(11:39) Right? (11:40) That's across the board. (11:42) I feel like that's probably the best blanket statement I could create for that.

Alan Lazaros

(11:45) One of the things that Kevin and I came to behind the scenes before we hit record, because we wanted to make sure we understood what the hell we were going to talk about, is too much popping of delusion in too short of a time is called trauma. (12:00) If you go into the world naive as hell, and I've really... (12:04) My car accident's a good example of this.(12:07) I never thought in a million years I was going to get in a head-on collision that night. (12:11) And everything I thought I knew about myself, others in the world changed in a moment. (12:17) And I had to face a lot of truth in a very short amount of time.(12:20) I had claustrophobia, double yellow lines, getting back in a car was hard. (12:24) It was good for me long-term, but it was traumatic. (12:30) And I think that that's...(12:32) One of the reasons why I think a lot of people have a hard time with me is because I'm creating... (12:39) That car accident for me was an ego death, aka a lot of truth in a very short amount of time. (12:45) My dad died in a car, I almost just did...(12:47) Oh my goodness, I thought I'd have... (12:49) Like, what the hell? (12:51) And people don't like uncertainty.(12:54) When they're in uncertainty, they do fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. (12:57) And fight is one of them. (12:59) So I get attacked a lot of times when I'm trying to help someone.(13:03) So you thought I was out of shape one time and told me I was out of shape, and you knew I wouldn't attack you. (13:09) And you also have a relationship with me where you're willing to give that kind of feedback. (13:14) And you knew I could handle it.(13:15) You knew it would be constructive. (13:16) It wasn't gonna be traumatic. (13:17) I'm not gonna cry in front of the fucking mirror, but I am gonna have an ego death.(13:21) And after that, I had to go home and contemplate my future of fitness. (13:26) And I'll never forget when you and I worked out. (13:29) So back in our fitness days, Kevin and I and some other friends, we would work out in a gym in Worcester called Crunch Fitness.(13:37) And I remember we went back there. (13:39) Jesus. (13:40) Same mirrors.(13:41) Hey. (13:42) Same mirrors. (13:43) Brutal.(13:44) Not the same humans. (13:45) Not okay. (13:47) Now, was that constructive or destructive?(13:50) For me, that was constructive. (13:51) I've gotten my shit together a lot since then. (13:53) But that workout was terrible.(13:56) That was terrible. (13:57) I was like, what am I looking at in the mirror? (13:59) Did they change the mirrors up in here?(14:02) You know what I'm saying? (14:03) Did you feel it? (14:04) Can you talk to me?(14:05) It was bad. (14:06) Like, they must have changed the mirrors up in this place.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:09) You know, I don't know if it was as bad for me as it was for you. (14:12) It was bad for me.

Alan Lazaros

(14:13) Because you weren't as delusional. (14:14) I don't think I was as delusional. (14:15) As distorted.(14:15) Yeah, it's just like you and baseball. (14:18) Oh, yeah. (14:18) I'm gonna hammer this thing.(14:20) That must be a tough moment. (14:21) Be honest with me. (14:21) Was that a tough moment for you?

Kevin Palmieri

(14:23) No, no, no, no. (14:24) Funny thing is, if you sent me now, I think I could do it. (14:27) I fucking think I could do it.(14:29) It's been two years and I haven't thrown a baseball since. (14:31) I think I could do it this time. (14:33) You don't mess with me.

Alan Lazaros

(14:34) No. (14:36) Nope. (14:37) So you didn't pop the bubble.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:40) You're arrogant. (14:41) Maybe, yeah. (14:43) Maybe.(14:45) Yeah, I think I could do it.

Alan Lazaros

(14:46) Not maybe. (14:47) You're definitely arrogant.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:49) Yeah, but what if I know now what I fucked up? (14:51) Yeah, that's fascinating.

Alan Lazaros

(14:52) Okay, so you have one new data point. (14:55) Now, here's the cool part. (14:56) Back to this episode.(14:58) You now can correct your form and actually try this time, knowing that you're probably gonna suck.

Kevin Palmieri

(15:05) Yeah, yeah. (15:06) And that's what- Yes, exactly. (15:08) Now my delusions on the other thing of like, Kev, this is gonna be worse than you think.(15:13) Yeah. (15:14) And like, just lob it. (15:16) You're not trying to impress you.(15:17) Just lob it over the plate. (15:19) Nobody cares. (15:20) There's no speedometer to say how fast it goes.(15:22) Just lob it. (15:23) Lob it up. (15:24) First one- What did you do?(15:25) Hammer it right into the thing. (15:25) Oh, I hammered it. (15:26) I hammered it.(15:27) Right into one of the sideboards? (15:29) Everything. (15:30) I hit everything but what I was supposed to.(15:32) It was bad. (15:33) But now, I think that's one of the things that, I mean, that's one of the things that failure does. (15:39) It reveals direction of delusion.

Alan Lazaros

(15:42) Yeah, it reveals the truth. (15:44) It reveals the truth. (15:45) Not, now this is where it gets complicated, because in the social world, you might give a speech that was actually very valuable to the wrong people.(15:54) That's true. (15:54) And you might be, this is where it gets very complicated. (15:59) What if I've given a really strong speech?(16:02) Kevin and I gave a speech, the same speech, four times, and it got worse every time, even though the speech got better. (16:08) The first three got better. (16:10) Okay, 7th and 8th graders, 9th and 10th graders, 11th and 12th graders.(16:14) Our delivery of said speech, growth mindset, perseverance, got better. (16:20) It got received worse. (16:21) That's why we get so screwed up.(16:24) I was in the back room going, what the hell is going on? (16:27) We did better. (16:28) What is the problem?(16:29) We found out that 7th and 8th graders are just more open-minded. (16:33) Well, I expected it. (16:34) See, I didn't, but that's a lesson for me.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:36) Yeah, that was the interesting thing.

Alan Lazaros

(16:37) That was a gallon. (16:38) You're like, Alan, if I was a junior. (16:40) You think they don't want to be here right now?(16:42) You now understand that I wasn't like that. (16:45) I would have loved it.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:45) I know, I know, I know.

Alan Lazaros

(16:46) See, I would have loved it. (16:47) So I had a blind spot. (16:49) Dude, if I found us when I was in high school, I would have eaten it up.(16:53) I would have followed us on Instagram, listened to the show. (16:57) Seriously, that's authentic. (16:58) And you would have made fun of us for sure.(17:01) I don't know. (17:03) Okay.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:03) I wouldn't have been excited. (17:04) You probably could have won me over. (17:05) You would have pretended to make fun of us to fit in with the cool kids, huh?(17:08) No, I didn't fuck the cool kids, dude. (17:09) I didn't, I wasn't a cool kid. (17:11) No.(17:11) What would you do? (17:13) If you had what I valued, I'd be interested.

Alan Lazaros

(17:16) Okay.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:17) Yeah, if you had, but we weren't, I don't know if we, we were definitely not in good enough shape at that point. (17:22) Fair. (17:23) Fair assessment.(17:24) I remember you and I, there was a gym at the Airbnb and we walked on the treadmill for 30 minutes before we get our dominoes. (17:30) It's like, that ain't it. (17:32) That ain't it, brother.

Alan Lazaros

(17:34) But you also, you got to remember too, the Facebook memory of the day is helping me a lot. (17:40) Even back in high school, I thought you were jacked. (17:43) I've seen pictures, man.(17:44) Not that big. (17:45) Well, jacked for high school, for high school. (17:47) But do you see how...

Kevin Palmieri

(17:49) Yeah, everything's relative. (17:50) There are steroid accusations, even in high school. (17:52) I know.(17:52) What do you think I'm getting? (17:54) I'm broke as shit. (17:55) What do you think I'm getting the money for steroids at 15 years old?(17:57) What are you talking about? (17:58) What are we doing here?

Alan Lazaros

(17:59) All right, let's get back to the, I want to ask you this. (18:02) Ego death, I think is wildly painful emotionally. (18:07) And I think that's why growth sucks.(18:09) I think most people don't want to face how inadequate they are, which is actually how you become more adequate. (18:17) Thoughts?

Kevin Palmieri

(18:18) Yeah, of course. (18:19) A hundred percent. (18:20) A hundred percent.

Alan Lazaros

(18:20) It's easier to think you're good than actually play.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:23) It's easier to live behind the armor of delusion until eventually one day, all of a sudden, it's not anymore. (18:32) Okay, give me an example. (18:33) What's far?(18:34) An accident or something life-altering. (18:39) You go through your whole life and your marriage thinking like, oh, my partner's so lucky to have me and they can never find someone like me again. (18:48) And then they leave your ass and they're with like an amazing person.(18:51) And you're like, interesting. (18:55) Interesting.

Alan Lazaros

(18:56) That is, that'll... (18:58) Or that creates more delusion. (19:00) And you say, oh, she's crazy or he's crazy.(19:03) Delusion is dangerous. (19:04) In the real world to get real results, you have to be very conscious and self-aware of this.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:09) Yeah, unless you're helping other people create delusion.

Alan Lazaros

(19:13) Yeah. (19:14) And you think a lot of podcasts, you and I are open about this. (19:16) We think a lot of podcasts are actually creating delusion.(19:19) Yes.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:19) Yeah, it's all going to work out. (19:21) Don't worry about it. (19:22) No stress.(19:23) Yeah, I think so much. (19:24) I think so much content is creating delusion. (19:26) It's not about facilitating transformation.(19:29) It's about appealing to the algorithm. (19:34) That, it's about, it's not about actually transforming. (19:37) It's about like, this will work on the algorithm.

Alan Lazaros

(19:39) Yeah, in the real world. (19:42) And when I say real world, I mean, non-digital, not social. (19:46) Just behind the scenes.(19:49) Hello, hello, hello, NLU listener. (19:52) Thank you as always for listening to Next Level University. (19:55) Real quick, I just want to jump in and let you know about the Next Level Dreamliner.(19:59) This is a journal that I use every single day. (20:02) Achieve your dreams 90 days at a time. (20:05) It breaks down your dreams into goals, milestones, and daily habits.(20:10) We hope you enjoy it. (20:11) The link will be in the show notes. (20:14) It doesn't really matter.(20:18) You can't hype yourself up to like, get the weights to lift themselves. (20:25) You can't hype yourself up to put in the work and the reps. (20:30) You and I can package this podcast better.(20:33) We can get better microphones. (20:34) We can have better editing and transitions on YouTube and subscribe button, whatever. (20:39) We can get better at calls to action.(20:40) And we can do a lot on the packaging side. (20:43) But at the end of the day, in real life, you have to be able to connect with human beings. (20:48) I'm helping one of my clients with dating.(20:53) And that's been fascinating too, because I'm going back to a time when I didn't really know what I was doing. (20:58) And now I have a lot of awareness. (21:00) I've been coaching women for 10 years.(21:03) It's unbelievable what I've learned. (21:05) And if you go back to Facebook memory of the day, I highly recommend everyone does this. (21:09) Facebook, for anyone who's Kevin and I's age, you can go back 18 years.(21:14) I saw one I posted from 18 years ago. (21:17) Not a great photo. (21:19) It's me on a lawn drinking, eating hot dog with a solo cup.(21:23) And it's very good for me to see, because I remember that. (21:29) And it's, I was, I had a career. (21:33) I had a plan.(21:35) I was planning on a lot of what happened. (21:38) Not all, but I also was hanging out with the wrong crowd. (21:43) And I didn't understand the implications of that.(21:45) And I can go back to that moment. (21:47) Maybe this is a me projecting thing. (21:48) I have a really strong memory.(21:49) I can go back to that moment and go back to that level of consciousness. (21:53) And I can see what I was thinking back then. (21:58) And the errors of my ways, the errors of my thinking, the errors of my social group, the errors in my decision making.(22:06) And it's, if I could go back, I would say, Alan, I understand. (22:11) I get it. (22:11) You want to have fun?(22:12) It's all good. (22:13) Be a tourist here. (22:14) Don't move in.(22:15) You don't belong here. (22:16) And you know it. (22:17) Your dreams and goals are going to force you to become more and climb out of this.(22:23) And this, this ain't it, man. (22:25) This ain't it. (22:26) You have fun here, but this ain't it.(22:28) Don't move in. (22:30) Don't do any dumb shit that's permanent. (22:32) Don't make a long-term consequence with a short-term emotion.(22:35) And I love Facebook memory of the day, man. (22:39) I talk about it all the time now because it's the best thing ever.

Kevin Palmieri

(22:43) That's your go-to.

Alan Lazaros

(22:43) You go back and go, oh, what else don't I know? (22:48) What else? (22:49) What is 46-year-old Alan going to tell me?

Kevin Palmieri

(22:53) The ones that blow my mind are like the three or three to five years ago. (22:57) Ones blow my mind more than anything. (22:59) I knew I was fucking jeffed when I was 18.(23:04) I knew that for certain. (23:06) But when I look back three years ago, it's like one 99 times out of 100, I still believe the same exact thing that I posted, which is good. (23:16) And maybe bad.(23:17) I think it's good because it's a deep belief. (23:20) Yeah. (23:21) But I won't say that's always.(23:22) I mean, look, you got to be open to new information, a new perspective. (23:27) But it's just crazy how much has changed in three years. (23:30) It's crazy.

Alan Lazaros

(23:30) We were onto something. (23:31) Did you see the one recently where you and I were in front of the whiteboard in the studio? (23:34) This is yesterday.(23:36) And we had, we, this was beginning of COVID. (23:39) We had a full room of people. (23:40) We had a huge room of people.(23:42) It was probably 20, 25 people. (23:44) And you and I are in front of the whiteboard in the studio. (23:46) Oh, we have people.(23:46) And I was explaining. (23:48) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (23:49) I had a graph out and now I still believe that fully everything I was talking about.(23:55) But what was it? (23:56) What was the graph for? (23:57) It was an exponential growth curve and it talks about how you have 100 tasks and it's talking about leverage.(24:04) It's the leverage curve. (24:05) It's what it's known as. (24:06) And there's three or four tasks that are going to move the needle 80%.(24:10) And the rest are, and those are very scary tasks and uncertain and challenging. (24:15) And I used that speech as an example. (24:17) And then here's all the noisy stuff that doesn't move the needle, but it's fun and easy.(24:21) The fun and easy stuff isn't going to do it. (24:24) 90% of the thing that moves the needle in fitness is doing a workout that is really, really, really hard. (24:29) And then the rest of the stuff is around it.(24:32) But my point of this, I still believe in the principles just like I did back then with a little more nuance. (24:39) But I obviously had no clue how few people give a shit about my graphs and stuff. (24:45) And I certainly didn't explain it well, man.(24:48) So I'm grateful we're learning and I'm excited to see where all this goes and how, I mean, in six more years, 12 more years. (25:00) I mean, I just, I do want, I'm excited to do all we can with all we have. (25:07) I'm excited to see what we're capable of.(25:10) But that excites me more than anything, seriously.

Kevin Palmieri

(25:12) I, last thing before we get out of here, Alan suggested reading a book called Rationality. (25:18) Who's Rationality by? (25:19) Steven Pinker.(25:20) Steven Pinker.

Alan Lazaros

(25:21) Harvard, Harvard professor. (25:24) Again, read it for the book, not for the author.

Kevin Palmieri

(25:26) Yeah, yeah, yeah. (25:27) Do not associate us with any other people that exist or ever have existed. (25:30) That's it, that's it.

Alan Lazaros

(25:32) You can associate me with Emilia.

Kevin Palmieri

(25:33) Perfect. (25:34) Kevin, Terrence. (25:35) Yes.(25:35) People I know in real life. (25:36) Our crew, yes. (25:37) But outside of that, if I don't know them, don't associate me with them because I don't know what they're doing.(25:41) Too much has come out in the last 10 years. (25:43) Yeah, I don't know what they're doing. (25:44) Yeah.(25:44) But what blew my mind in that book is it's almost like if you were exposed to that and had never done any research on rationality, I can imagine how fucking hard that would be.

Alan Lazaros

(26:00) Emilia said this to me. (26:02) I adore her sister, Ella. (26:03) She's a sweetheart.(26:04) She was at Next Level Live. (26:05) Shout out to you, Ella, if you're listening. (26:07) And she asked me what book I recommend.(26:11) And I was like, oh, and I started spouting them off. (26:15) And Emilia on the way home, she's like, Alan, Alan, too deep, too much. (26:22) She said too much.(26:23) Well, I found out later there's something called a CTR, Cognitive Reflection Test, CRT. (26:29) Yeah, Cognitive Reflection Test. (26:31) And she actually brought it to her father's business partner who went to WPI as well.(26:36) And that's the lily pad thing. (26:38) I'm not going to get into it. (26:39) You can look up CRT, Cognitive Reflection Test.(26:42) You can literally look this up. (26:44) Chat GPT, Google, whatever. (26:46) And she did.(26:47) She read it. (26:48) And when she got to the CRT test, she's like, there's no way that's right. (26:51) And then she went and brought it.(26:53) So I think it was a value. (26:54) But at the end of the day, some books, I'll share this anonymously. (27:01) There's someone I recommended a book to.(27:03) Nope. (27:03) Emilia recommended a book to this person that I know. (27:05) And this person was so triggered.(27:08) They were like, fuck this book. (27:09) Fuck this fucking book. (27:10) I know what that was.(27:12) I understand. (27:13) And I had that reaction when I read Body Keeps the Score. (27:16) Now, full disclosure, I have still not read that entire book.(27:19) But I read the stats in the beginning. (27:22) And it was too much for me. (27:26) But basically, what I found out statistically is that I have trauma that is statistically insane.(27:35) Because it's like 6%, 8%, 12%. (27:37) And I was in every one of them. (27:39) And that really got me because I know the math.(27:42) The adverse childhood experience story. (27:44) Adverse childhood experiences. (27:46) Yep.(27:46) Yeah. (27:47) And that book, I still... (27:50) I'll read it all.(27:52) You know, and I know of it. (27:53) Obviously, breathwork, Body Keeps the Score, trauma, cells, mitochondrial health, all that stuff. (27:58) I understand a lot of it.(27:59) I just... (28:00) I got to pick that book up again at some point. (28:02) But I remember when I was listening to the opening of that book, I was like, fuck this book.(28:06) Because it was too much in a short amount of time. (28:11) And I think that that's why we recommend one a day. (28:14) One NLU episode a day.(28:16) No one episode is going to crumble your entire ego. (28:20) But we can slowly but surely help you see yourself, others in the world more accurately. (28:25) And if you do that over time, you can achieve your goals and dreams.(28:28) It's like a self-driving car that has accurate maps.

Kevin Palmieri

(28:31) I would wrap it up with this. (28:33) The things that make you question everything are the things that are the hardest to look at. (28:36) And I don't think you should question everything all the time.(28:39) I think you should question what you're ready to question. (28:41) You and I have been having a lot of sad experiences lately. (28:46) A lot of things are revealing themselves.(28:49) It's like, oh my god, that's not what I thought it was at all. (28:52) If that happened in 2018 or 2019, I don't know. (28:56) I got to read something then we'll go.(28:58) Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(28:58) Yeah. (28:59) We used to do dramatic readings way back.

Kevin Palmieri

(29:01) Alan used to do dramatic readings way back.

Alan Lazaros

(29:05) 130 million books. (29:06) I think a lot of them are hot garbage. (29:08) When I found a good one, I wanted to share it.

Kevin Palmieri

(29:10) That's true.

Alan Lazaros

(29:11) So there's a thing that I send, not to every client, but to most clients. (29:16) It's called the truth contract. (29:20) Let me see if I can find it.(29:26) And I do think it's life-changing. (29:29) I do. (29:29) It's called Red Pill, maybe?(29:32) Nice. (29:33) No, Redwood. (29:34) No?(29:34) Ah. (29:35) The old Redwood. (29:36) Redwood Tree.(29:37) They all start out like a little turd. (29:39) Found it. (29:40) The truth contract.(29:40) I found it, baby. (29:42) Yeah. (29:43) Can you give reference to that then?

Kevin Palmieri

(29:45) I don't know. (29:47) Alan did a speech and he was like, every one of you is a Redwood. (29:50) But a Redwood starts out, it's like a little piece of poop, looks like a little piece of poop.

Alan Lazaros

(29:55) A little acorn that looks like a little turd.

Kevin Palmieri

(29:56) That was our running joke for the day every time.

Alan Lazaros

(29:59) I realized after that, that a lot of people don't identify as being a Redwood.

Kevin Palmieri

(30:04) Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(30:05) They grow hundreds of feet tall and you can drive trucks through them in terms of how thick they are. (30:12) Okay, the Red Pill or the Blue Pill. (30:14) This is from a book.(30:15) We give credit where it's due. (30:16) It's called Thinking in Bets. (30:18) Awesome fucking book.(30:20) And Annie Duke. (30:22) Annie Duke. (30:22) Nice work.(30:23) I've never read the book. (30:23) Awesome book.

Kevin Palmieri

(30:24) Never read it. (30:25) I just know of her because of poker, I think.

Alan Lazaros

(30:28) Yeah, correct. (30:29) Yep. (30:29) Yep.(30:29) So this is a page that I share with almost all clients, okay? (30:35) The Red Pill or Blue Pill. (30:36) I'm gonna read this.(30:41) All right, here we go. (30:43) In the classic science fiction film, The Matrix, when Neo, played by Keanu Reeves, meets Morpheus, the hero hacker played by Laurence Fishburne, Neo asks Morpheus to tell him what the Matrix is, in quotes. (30:55) Morpheus offers to show Neo, giving him the choice between taking a Blue Pill or a Red Pill.(31:01) You take the Blue Pill, the story ends. (31:04) You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (31:08) You take the Red Pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.(31:14) For the younger listeners, that is a reference to Alice in Wonderland. (31:18) As Neo reaches toward a pill, Morpheus reminds him, remember, all I am offering is the truth, nothing more. (31:26) Neo chooses to see the world as it really is.(31:28) He takes the Red Pill and is pounded with a series of devastating truths. (31:33) His comfortable world is a dream created by machines to enslave him as an energy source. (31:37) His job and lifestyle, his clothes, his appearance, and the entire fabric of his life are an illusion implanted in his brain.(31:44) In the actual world, taking the Red Pill causes his body to be unplugged from his feeding pod, flushed into a sewer, and picked up by Morpheus's pirate ship, the Nebuchadnezzar. (31:53) As rebels against the machines, Morpheus and his crew, and now Neo due to his choice, live in cramped quarters, sleep in uncomfortable cells, eat gruel, and wear rags. (32:02) Machines are out to destroy them.(32:04) The trade-off is that Neo sees the world as it actually is, and in the end gets to defeat the machines that have enslaved humanity, which I think is a metaphor for your dreams. (32:15) In the movie, the Matrix was built to be a more comfortable version of the world. (32:19) Our brains, likewise, have evolved to make our version of the world more comfortable.(32:23) Our beliefs are nearly always correct. (32:25) Favorable outcomes are the result of our skill. (32:28) There are plausible reasons for why unfavorable outcomes are beyond our control, even when they are within our control, and we compare favorably with our peers.(32:35) We deny, or at least dilute, the most painful parts of the message. (32:39) Giving that up is not the easiest choice. (32:41) Living in the Matrix is comfortable.(32:45) So is the natural way we process information to protect our self-image in the moment. (32:49) By choosing to exit the Matrix, we are asserting that striving for a more objective representation of the world, even if it is uncomfortable at times, will make us happier and more successful in the long run. (33:00) But it's a trade-off that isn't for everyone.(33:02) It must be freely chosen to be productive and sustainable. (33:06) Morpheus didn't just go around ripping people out of the Matrix against their will. (33:09) He asked Neo to make the choice and exit the Matrix with him.(33:12) If you have gotten this far in this book, I'm guessing you are choosing the red pill over the blue pill. (33:15) So the reason I share this with my clients is because, essentially, if they want to achieve their goals and dreams, I'm going to have to re-shift the way they think about themselves, others, and the world. (33:26) And I think that, no, we're not in a dream world where batteries for machines.(33:32) If you've seen The Matrix, that's not true. (33:34) A lot of people say it is. (33:35) It's not.(33:35) What is true, however, is that we have cognitive biases that make us want to see ourselves better than we are, want to see the world better than it is. (33:44) And that's why kids are very naive. (33:46) They want to believe everyone's kind.(33:48) And that's why predators find children. (33:50) Like, the truth is always hardcore. (33:54) It's always less ideal.(33:57) The truth is it's not going to work out. (33:59) The truth is your dreams are not just going to happen. (34:01) The truth is most things have an upside and a downside.(34:04) Some people are corrupt, horrible individuals. (34:07) And a lot of people don't want to face the facts that your mental map is completely off. (34:13) Maybe you're not that attractive.(34:14) Maybe you are short. (34:15) Maybe you do have terrible calves like me. (34:17) Maybe.(34:18) But here's the deal. (34:19) There's a pro and a con. (34:21) The more you see yourself, others, and the world more accurately, the more likely you can achieve your goals and dreams.(34:28) Because now you can make accurate chess moves. (34:30) Now you can actually be effective. (34:33) If you think girls don't care about height, you're wrong.(34:35) And you're going to screw up. (34:39) There's just certain things that are fundamentally true. (34:41) And that's why I love science.(34:43) And that's why I love mathematics. (34:44) Because in a world that felt really challenging and uncertain in my childhood, I needed to cling to something that was accurate. (34:52) And ever since, I've been clinging to accuracy.(34:54) And this podcast is basically helping you see yourself, others, and the world more accurately. (35:00) And you, by listening, are consenting to take at least a little bit of the red pill. (35:04) But the point of this episode is, we're not going to give you every devastating truth simultaneously.(35:11) You're not going to be ripped out of a plug that was for machines and then thrown into a Nebuchadnezzar. (35:18) Like, this is a metaphor. (35:19) This is a metaphor for what it is to realize that certain things aren't as true as you thought.(35:25) Most things are going to be harder than you thought. (35:28) There's how people want you to believe it works. (35:31) There's how they want to believe it works.(35:33) And then there's how it really works. (35:34) And how it really works is always a little more challenging to take.

Kevin Palmieri

(35:40) You can always tell when Alan's going on an epic monologue when he starts looking at the camera and turns in his seat. (35:45) I don't know if you noticed that, but I noticed that. (35:47) I have nothing of value to add to that.(35:49) I think that wrapped it up perfectly. (35:51) What I will say is I waited way too long to watch The Matrix. (35:53) And by the time I watched it, it was dog shit.(35:56) It was too late. (35:57) Like, this is terrible. (35:58) I can't.(35:58) But the concept. (35:59) The concept is world class. (36:01) Nice.(36:02) The concept is world class. (36:04) But Titanic still stands as the greatest movie ever made. (36:06) If you have an issue with that, I don't care.(36:10) It's a great movie. (36:11) The greatest.

Alan Lazaros

(36:13) Some would argue that Rose had to face some devastating truths in order to transform and be freed, some would say. (36:20) Some would say Jack was also...

Kevin Palmieri

(36:22) Tal had her under delusion and distortion. (36:23) Jack was delusional as hell, though. (36:25) What do you mean?(36:25) Just delusional man.

Alan Lazaros

(36:27) I don't agree with that at all.

Kevin Palmieri

(36:28) Well, we'll have to save that for part 12. (36:30) Oh, sounds goodness. (36:32) All right.(36:34) Book Club, every Saturday, 12.30 Eastern time. (36:38) If you want to be around next level people reading next level books, that's the place to do it. (36:43) Willpower.(36:44) Great book. (36:44) Super valuable. (36:45) Again, are we reading, and by we, I mean the people in Book Club.(36:50) Harry Potter, no. (36:52) It's going to be intense. (36:53) It's going to be deep.(36:53) But that's what you want at the end of the day. (36:55) That's what you want.

Alan Lazaros

(36:55) I will go out on a limb and I will say the next book, assuming we have not done it yet, I have to check, is going to be Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. (37:04) I think that book is awesome, and it will help you think more objectively and more accurately.

Kevin Palmieri

(37:09) That'll be my next one after the self-made billionaire effect. (37:13) All right. (37:14) That's that.(37:14) Now, next level Dreamliner, if you're looking to get into the habit of journaling every single day, little by little, again, little steps lead to big places. (37:23) That is on Amazon. (37:24) We'll have the link in the show notes for that as well.(37:26) As always, we love you. (37:27) We appreciate you. (37:28) Grateful for each and every one of you.(37:29) And if you are as committed as you say you are to getting to the next level, make sure you tune in tomorrow because we are going to be here every single day to help you get there. (37:37) Keep reaching to your full potential. (37:40) Next level nation.(37:43) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University. (37:47) We love connecting with the Next Level family.

Alan Lazaros

(37:49) We mean it when we say family. (37:51) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. (37:54) Everything you need to get ahold of us is in the show notes.

Kevin Palmieri

(37:58) Thank you again, and we will talk to you tomorrow.