The 2 Types Of Goals And How They’re Connected (2183)

Are you setting the right kind of goals, or are your goals setting you up for failure? In this episode of Next Level University, Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros break down the two types of goals that actually matter: process goals and results goals. They share why both are essential, how elite performers like Olympic athletes and entrepreneurs approach them, and the hidden role of environment, structure, and accountability in staying consistent. If you’re tired of setting goals that don’t stick, this episode will help you understand how to align vision with action.

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Show notes:
(1:10) Process goals Vs. Results goals
(3:47) Stories of elite performers
(7:43) Belief, delusion, and achievement
(9:00) James Clear on goal-setting
(11:35) If you want to start, grow, scale, or monetize your podcast? Join our "The Next Level Podcast Accelerator" - https://www.nextleveluniverse.com/group-coaching/ 
(12:23) Environment and accountability matter
(17:08) Kevin’s journey to podcast success
(20:59) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Chapters

• 1:10 Process goals Vs. Results goals
• 3:47 Stories of elite performers
• 7:43 Belief, delusion, and achievement
• 9:00 James Clear on goal-setting
• 11:35 If you want to start, grow, scale, or monetize your podcast? Join our "The Next Level Podcast Accelerator"
• 12:23 Environment and accountability matter
• 17:08 Kevin’s journey to podcast success
• 20:59 Outro

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) Level one is understanding the goal you want to set. (0:03) Level two is figuring out how to best align yourself to actually accomplish that goal. (0:08) And it's most likely one of the two ways we talk about today.(0:11) And level three, we'll tell you in the episode, because this is Next Level U, baby. (0:15) Welcome to Next Level University. (0:18) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri.(0:20) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus. (0:23) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven, but no-BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers. (0:29) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.(0:36) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success. (0:52) Self-improvement, in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free. (0:58) Welcome to Next Level University.(1:04) Next Level Nation. (1:05) Today, for episode number 2,183, Alan and I are on a happy Saturday spree. (1:10) The two types of goals and how they're connected.(1:13) So we talked about Alan's 1,546,000 days of exercise in a row. (1:18) That's not what it actually is, but he would be long dead in somewhere else. (1:23) It's impossible.(1:24) And we were talking about process goals versus results goals. (1:29) And you had a thesis, I had a thesis, and you said, hey, let's do an episode on that. (1:34) So here we are, we're doing an episode on that.(1:35) Where do you think we should jump off today in this 15-ish minute episode? (1:43) The unfortunate truth is that you have to have both. (1:48) What does that say?(1:49) Cultivate kindness? (1:50) This is my wife's mug. (1:51) It says cultivate kindness.(1:52) Nice. (1:52) And it has a little sunshine rainbow heart on the end. (1:57) You know what I like about that mug?(1:59) I'm drinking out of it. (2:01) Nope, it wasn't in my... (2:03) Nope.(2:05) Cultivate is a verb that implies you actually have to do something to be kind. (2:09) I like that.

Alan Lazaros

(2:10) Ooh, I like that.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:10) Yeah, no one is kind by default. (2:11) You have to earn it. (2:13) Now, side tangent, we're talking about goals.(2:16) Yeah. (2:16) It's very hard to stay kind and have huge goals. (2:20) It is definitely a challenge.(2:21) It is. (2:22) Yeah, because goals equal frustration. (2:26) You know what I'm saying?(2:26) What's your fucking thesis? (2:28) Okay. (2:29) Speaking of being kind.(2:30) Speaking of being kind.

Alan Lazaros

(2:31) We're on a very...

Kevin Palmieri

(2:32) See, Kevin's frustrated with me right now. (2:33) We're on a tight shot clock here.

Alan Lazaros

(2:35) Because we have goals.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:36) So I want to make sure we actually add value. (2:37) Shot clock. (2:38) Basketball references.(2:39) Yes. (2:39) Okay. (2:40) The unfortunate truth is you need both.(2:43) If you don't have a results goal that you're after, you won't leverage Pareto's principle, 20% of effort produces 80% of results. (2:51) You won't know what process to do. (2:53) I playfully joke.(2:54) Imagine if I said, I want to build the best tech company on planet Earth. (2:58) And then I went to the beach. (3:00) Going to the beach has nothing to do with building a tech company.(3:04) That's my playful joke. (3:05) You don't think that lands for anybody? (3:08) No, because I don't...(3:11) Again, if you don't know what it's going to take to actually build the most successful tech company, it's irrelevant. (3:16) I watched a video on... (3:18) Isn't it clear that that has nothing to do with building a tech company?(3:21) Yeah, but a lot of... (3:23) There's layers to it. (3:25) Being in shape on the beach has nothing to do with being at the beach.(3:28) I understand, but there's layers to it. (3:31) God damn it, Craig. (3:31) And somebody could say watching a movie has nothing to do with personal development.(3:37) That's not true. (3:38) Because... (3:38) But there's layers as well.(3:39) That's all I'm saying. (3:41) That's all I'm saying. (3:41) I watched a video yesterday on Bill Gates and how him and...(3:45) Who is this guy? (3:46) Bill Gates and... (3:47) Paul Allen.(3:47) They worked every single day for 10 years. (3:51) Of their 20s, yeah. (3:52) Yeah, from 20 to 30.(3:54) I was like, yeah, it makes sense. (3:56) It makes sense. (3:57) 100%.(3:58) Nice. (3:58) Okay, so results and process goals. (4:02) A process is I'm going to exercise daily.(4:05) A result is I'm going to lose 10 pounds in 10 weeks. (4:08) That's a good example, I think. (4:10) A results goal is at X future date, I'm going to achieve Y outcome.(4:19) A process goal is I'm going to do Z, W, and B in order to achieve X outcome by Y date. (4:29) Which is better? (4:30) Which is better in your opinion?(4:32) Results goals. (4:34) The most successful people on planet Earth are results driven. (4:37) Who is that not best for?(4:40) No one. (4:41) Results driven is good for everyone. (4:43) But there's a issue here.(4:46) Hell of a blanket statement there. (4:48) Yeah, I know. (4:49) I have a lot of science to back that up.(4:51) That's, I'm hoping we hear it. (4:52) I'm ready. (4:58) Every Olympic athlete wants to win an Olympic gold medal.(5:01) If they don't, and they stumbled upon being an Olympic athlete, imagine what they could do if they actually had a goal. (5:08) You believe that? (5:09) Do you believe when somebody says, like somebody gets to the top and they say, I didn't even intend on getting here.(5:13) Do you believe that? (5:15) No, no, I don't. (5:20) Tom Brady says, I never once said I wanted to be the greatest of all time.(5:23) I would say he never said it out loud, but he definitely said it in his head. (5:26) For sure. (5:27) I find that very difficult to believe.(5:30) You're not going to be the greatest of all time on accident. (5:33) I can't imagine it, but I feel like all the time people like, I don't even just like happened. (5:38) I think it's a, it seems like a, I think what they're trying to say is I didn't know for sure that this would happen.(5:47) And when I started out, okay, I started out trying to be a speaker. (5:52) Alan Lazarus LLC, what you'll never learn in school, but desperately need to know. (5:55) I didn't know that I'd be a successful podcaster.(5:58) I didn't intend on that until after I decided to do it. (6:02) So I think what they're saying again, to the layers point you made is when I was 13, I didn't, I didn't know I'd be the greatest Olympic. (6:11) Of course you didn't know you were just swimming.(6:14) I'm referring to Michael Phelps in this case. (6:16) And then you have some people who are very honest about it. (6:20) Kobe used to say, I made that deal with myself at 13.(6:23) I watched a video yesterday on delusional self-belief. (6:27) It was literally called the power of delusional self-belief. (6:30) It might've been like the power of delusion.(6:31) And one of the, so it was Steve jobs, Bill Gates, Kanye, Michael Jordan. (6:38) It was just a bunch of people. (6:39) And again, do not associate me or Alan with any of those people.(6:41) These are just people. (6:42) I don't, I don't know these people personally, nor do I have any desire to. (6:45) Correct.(6:46) Kanye was, Kobe was not in there. (6:48) It was a show. (6:49) It was only like an 11 minute video.(6:50) So I'm sure there's probably multiples of these, but somebody was interviewing Kanye and he said, I couldn't, he was in there, right? (6:56) No Walt Disney was on there. (6:58) I don't know.(6:59) Are there any interviews of Walt Disney? (7:01) Like real good quality content? (7:03) I don't think so.(7:04) That's probably why they interviewed Kanye. (7:06) And he said, I could be a, if I decided to be an NBA player, I'd play in the NBA. (7:11) And the guy was like, how could you possibly say that?(7:13) Like, how do you believe that? (7:15) And he laughed, Kanye laughed and said, because I believe I could, I believe I can do anything. (7:19) And it wasn't arrogant.(7:20) It was like, yeah, no, it makes sense. (7:21) I feel like that's probably the way that you're wired. (7:25) I'm sure he probably decided he was going to be a genre shifting artist at some point.(7:32) And then he went and did that. (7:33) And I think there's certain, certain people that are just, I don't know. (7:37) They're just built that way.(7:39) It's not delusion if it is actually doable. (7:41) It just seems like it to everybody else. (7:43) It seems like it until it happens.(7:47) The, the best metaphor for this, and it's overused, but it's the best metaphor is Roger Bannister with the five, the four minute mile. (7:54) Once that was crossed and it was believed for hundreds of years that couldn't be done. (7:58) Now high schoolers do it.(7:59) That's wild. (8:01) And still wild. (8:02) Cause freaking six is unbelievable.(8:05) I think three 43 is the record right now. (8:08) Three minutes. (8:09) And there's people that can, I mean, there's a lot of people that can hold their breath for longer than that.(8:12) You can hold your breath. (8:14) Somebody just ran a mile by the time you're done. (8:17) That's insane to me.(8:19) Well, the record for holding your breath is like 17 minutes. (8:23) It's even so you, you could run a mile in the wreck. (8:25) I'm someone holding their breath.(8:27) Maybe David Lane can do a 17 minute mile. (8:29) You're in some trouble, brother. (8:31) I can squat heavy.(8:31) I don't know about running. (8:32) We'll see. (8:33) You can run a 17 minute mile.(8:34) I know. (8:34) All right, let's get back to it. (8:35) Two types of goals, process goals, process goals, results goals are necessary to determine the process.(8:41) But once you have the outcome in mind, the rest is all process. (8:45) So for example, James Clear uses a really great metaphor. (8:48) I love when he says this, he says, I can set a goal.(8:52) I'm an author. (8:52) I can set a goal for to sell 50 million books. (8:55) Look, it took me three seconds, but that's not the hard part.(9:00) Now I have to dedicate the next decade to actually executing against that. (9:08) So the process needs to be engineered based on the fucking future outcome has to, I will share this. (9:17) There's someone I know that I coached for a time.(9:21) Emilia coached him too. (9:22) And he accidentally was in the NFL. (9:26) And I liked this person a ton.(9:27) He wanted to be a film person. (9:30) He, he did his first feature film, actually. (9:31) I think it was a short film actually, when we were working together and he was working but I remember telling him, like, wait a minute, you're telling me you were on a football field with Eli Manning, like a year and a half ago.(9:47) And you didn't even like football. (9:49) He's like, yeah, man, I liked basketball. (9:51) I was like, wait a minute.(9:53) What do you mean? (9:54) And he said, I was the best on the East Coast wide receiver. (9:58) And I was like, and you didn't even try to be, he's like, no, I was just really good.(10:04) Oh my God. (10:05) Can you imagine if he actually reverse engineered that? (10:09) I was, I was way better at soccer.(10:11) I was way better at soccer than I was baseball. (10:14) Dude, my mom, there's so much luck. (10:16) This is really unfortunate.(10:17) We're reading, thinking and bats. (10:18) We're going to do an episode on it after this. (10:23) There's a lot of luck in success with a lot of people.(10:26) I don't think there's a lot of that at the top. (10:28) I don't think Eli Manning liked basketball and didn't intend on like being good at football. (10:33) Brandon on the team decided when he was in high school, I'm going to try to play college ball.(10:38) And we looked up live on book club. (10:41) What are the chances that someone who's four foot six? (10:44) No, no.(10:45) I'm sorry. (10:45) Five foot five, five foot six, five foot four, five foot. (10:48) I don't five, five, five.

Alan Lazaros

(10:50) Okay.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:51) What are the chances? (10:51) We looked it up. (10:52) I don't know.(10:53) Heights, obviously five, four, not four, five, five, four. (10:56) Yeah. (10:56) Five foot four.(10:58) What are the chances of a running back being in the NFL? (11:02) Who's five foot four, 165 pounds and chat GPT said rounding error of zero. (11:09) I think there's been like three, four.(11:11) Yeah. (11:12) AKA it's not going to happen. (11:14) Brandon still played D one college.(11:16) And by the way, I actually, it was in college, not the NFL just to get to college ball. (11:20) It was rounding error of zero. (11:23) AKA the stats say, don't even try, but he did it.(11:27) Now here's the key. (11:28) We're going to get back to process schools. (11:30) That dude.(11:31) We one time, as a matter of fact, I'll share this with everybody. (11:33) Our group coaching program is actually built on a conversation I had with Brandon. (11:39) Next level nation.(11:40) What is happening? (11:42) If you've thought to yourself, I want to try coaching, but you don't really know where to start group coaching would be a wonderful place for you. (11:49) That's really why we created it in the first place.(11:51) We start a new round every 90 days. (11:54) So if you're hearing this, go to the website, next level universe.com. (11:59) And we have the landing page where you can actually hold your spot right now.(12:03) Even if there's a group going on right now, you can still lock your spot for the next one. (12:07) The biggest thing that we've seen is as we get closer and closer to the date, unfortunately, some people end up missing the group fills up and they can't do it. (12:15) And then they end up regretting that.(12:17) So please head over to the website. (12:19) The link will be in the show notes, and we would love to see you there. (12:23) I asked Brandon, when were you the most fulfilled, most dialed in, most on fire, most motivated, most inspired, most on point.(12:29) He said, brother, it was when I was trying to get into college and play college ball. (12:32) I said, let's unpack it. (12:34) I put a on zoom.(12:35) I put Brandon in the center and I unpacked all the layers practices. (12:41) We actually went over this in book club. (12:42) I have a digital asset about it, but practices, every offensive coach, defensive coach, AKA the process.(12:49) He had a lifting coach. (12:50) He had team members counting on him. (12:52) He had his parents.(12:53) He had one parent who it was a grandparent who said you couldn't do it. (12:56) One parent who was super supportive. (12:59) He had all of the ingredients, the chicken soup for success, lack for lack of better phrasing.(13:06) And we actually designed the group coaching program. (13:09) I designed the group coaching program based on that. (13:14) It's so hard for me to say that out loud.(13:16) I want to give us credit for that, even though I feel like it was me. (13:19) Okay. (13:20) So the entire group coaching program is built on.(13:26) All these layers of why Brandon was so motivated, inspired and on point and on fire. (13:32) People think they're on fire. (13:33) Kev, you are the most consistent success oriented person that you've ever been by far.(13:38) Did you know that most of that has nothing to do with you? (13:43) Uh, yeah. (13:43) Humbly.(13:44) I try to, I try to. (13:45) It has to do with all the ingredients, your environment, the people you're around, the systems, the structure, the promises, the community, the public accountability, me coaching accountability from the team. (13:58) It's, it's actually all these ingredients.(14:00) One day I'm going to create a 360 degree something. (14:04) I think I'm going to call it a 1440 because it's more than 360, obviously, but. (14:09) All the ingredients necessary to become successful.(14:12) It's way more than just Kevin. (14:13) Like Kevin is the, at the center of his success, but everything you surround yourself with every single day, what you're reading, what you're thinking about, who you're associating with your tools for success. (14:24) I mean, there's a whole list that I have for my clients.(14:27) And that's, that's actually one of the reasons all my clients are on point. (14:30) And one of the reasons, quite frankly, I want to share this. (14:32) One of the reasons my clients lose all their friends.(14:35) Well, I think that the hard part of it is when you, if you're listening to audible every day or you're listening, whatever, wherever you're consuming your content, you realize how much of a positive influence that is. (14:48) And when you're watching, when you're listening to podcasts and you're watching Ted talks and you're reading books, you realize, I think of every single one of those as like a little, a little line that goes into you, right? (14:59) Spotify and podcasts and audible.(15:01) They're all, they're all lines that go into me. (15:04) They're feeding me. (15:06) Any negative thing is bleeding me.(15:08) That's taking stuff out of me. (15:09) Yep. (15:10) And if, if you think of red as bleeding and green is building, if you have more red lines attached to you than you do green lines, you're going backwards.(15:17) If you have more green lines and you do red lines, you're probably winning. (15:20) And that's how you end up being lonely. (15:22) Because very honestly, how often are the people in our lives actually what's best for us?(15:29) I mean, that's like a real fucking conversation. (15:32) We'll have to do that at some point. (15:33) We don't have time to do it right now.(15:34) All right. (15:35) Give me, let's kick this to you. (15:38) You are someone who has achieved goals beyond what you ever thought was possible for you.(15:43) For sure. (15:44) Through processes you didn't want to do. (15:46) For sure.(15:47) What were necessary. (15:49) So you go. (15:54) The hardest part about it is even in that, even in the example of.(15:59) Okay. (15:59) James Clear hypothetically says he wants to sell however many books he wants to be a best selling author. (16:04) It's not even about writing the book.(16:07) That's like the last thing you do. (16:11) Or the first thing, but go, you know what I mean? (16:14) It's okay.(16:18) I blogged for years and built a subscribership. (16:22) But yeah, but before that he learned about habits or during that he learned about habits and then he learned how to tell stories and he learned like that's the, I think that's the hard part is every single goal is made up of so many things. (16:35) And those are the things that you have to do long before you ever get any shot at actually accomplishing the goal.(16:42) So much of. (16:44) I think the reason people get to a place that they didn't expect to get to is because they set goals that they don't know what it will require of them and you pick up extra points along the way and eventually if you keep going, the points accumulate and it's like, wow, I don't, I didn't really expect all of this hypothetically. (17:02) Like that's my, I think that's the best example for me is my goal was to find a way to make a living podcasting in the beginning.(17:08) That was it. (17:09) That was literally my goal. (17:11) That was it.(17:11) What are you going to say 30 years from now? (17:13) I'm going to say it all just worked out, baby. (17:15) It all just worked out.(17:16) Seriously, what are you going to say? (17:17) Okay, you have $100,000 a month this year. (17:20) You're very successful.(17:22) We've grossed $1.7 million at this point. (17:25) Okay, you are a very successful podcaster. (17:27) You're 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% podcaster in terms of income earners.(17:32) What is the question that would get asked? (17:34) The question would be, how did you do it? (17:36) I dedicated my life to this.(17:39) That, okay, more than that. (17:41) Okay, that's useful. (17:42) Next.(17:42) I went into, I literally used my credit cards to fund a business long before anybody believed in it. (17:50) Nice. (17:51) I got rid of all the relationships in my life that were not serving me to any degree.(17:56) Nice. (17:58) I tried to get really good at setting boundaries and saying yes to the right things and even better at saying no to the wrong things. (18:04) Nice.(18:04) I surrounded myself with people who made me get better, not feel better. (18:08) Nice. (18:09) I could give you a list of 500 of them.(18:10) Keep going. (18:11) This is working. (18:12) Well, we don't have time.(18:12) That's the problem. (18:14) I learned every single day for, let's say, this is 30 years, for the last 38 years. (18:20) I learned every single day.(18:23) I had the opportunity to be surrounded with incredible people. (18:27) Alan, Lazarus. (18:28) I'm joking.(18:29) If you guys saw me, literally, I am fucking with you because I could give a shit. (18:34) But that's something I would say. (18:35) It would just be towards the tail end.

Alan Lazaros

(18:37) That would be like second to last.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:38) If you were on YouTube, I was pointing to myself. (18:40) I thought you were going to die when I did that. (18:43) Okay.(18:43) To be continued, though. (18:44) But that's a truth. (18:45) That's a truth.(18:46) But would you be one of those people who said, I never once thought I'd be a successful podcaster? (18:51) Oh, yes. (18:52) Yeah.(18:54) Until a certain point. (18:55) Yeah. (18:56) When I say this all the time.(18:57) You didn't think you were going to be successful? (18:58) No. (18:59) God, no.(19:00) Not even. (19:00) Dude, you said you wanted to be like Joe Rogan. (19:02) I said I wanted to be, not intended to be.(19:05) So you really didn't believe this was going to work? (19:08) Absolutely not. (19:10) That is fucking mind-blowing.(19:12) It's crazy, isn't it? (19:13) Dude, I never doubted it for a second. (19:16) Of course it's going to work eventually.(19:17) Well, that's why I said, dude, I want you to know this has been harder on me. (19:21) Now, I think we're getting to the place where it's not. (19:23) Well, I don't know.(19:23) I'm fucked up now. (19:24) I'm going through my own shit now, too. (19:26) But this whole time.(19:28) I think it's been hard for me socially. (19:29) For me, it's been hard of like, is this. (19:32) I can't afford Christmas presents.(19:33) Is this going to get this going to get better, right? (19:36) I couldn't either, man. (19:37) It's all good.(19:38) Yeah, but you don't have anybody to get Christmas presents. (19:40) That makes it easier. (19:41) Yes.(19:42) No, it doesn't. (19:43) And you even like Christmas. (19:44) I love Christmas.(19:44) My favorite time of the year. (19:45) Okay, fair. (19:46) But dude, like.(19:47) It's like, imagine not being able to buy anything. (19:49) I think those are the best times. (19:50) Imagine not being able to buy a book.(19:54) You gotta find a way, baby. (19:56) Well, I did find a way. (19:57) I put it on credit cards with 24% interest rates, you know, came back to bite me in the butt.(20:01) Yeah, all right. (20:02) So, yeah. (20:03) Do you want to keep going on this one?(20:05) No. (20:05) Do the other one later? (20:06) No, yeah.(20:07) I was trying to take a look. (20:08) I'm coaching with Alan. (20:09) He's trying to take my fucking coaching call right now.

Alan Lazaros

(20:11) No, what we could do. (20:12) You're right. (20:13) Let's do it.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:13) We could cut this now and we could do a part two. (20:16) Let's do it. (20:16) I mean, we're part two podcast.(20:18) So we could do that. (20:18) Let's do that. (20:19) You want to do that?(20:20) All right. (20:21) All right, cool. (20:21) Next on the nation.(20:22) Every single Saturday, 12 30 eastern time. (20:25) It is book club. (20:25) It is free.(20:27) It is consistent. (20:28) You do not have to have read the book. (20:30) You don't have to be on camera.(20:31) You don't have to participate. (20:32) You can literally be a fly on the wall right now. (20:34) They are reading Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke.(20:37) A world class poker player who also has a psychology degree. (20:40) I believe. (20:41) What are the odds of that?(20:43) She calculates the statistical probability of success. (20:46) And sometimes when you bet right, you fail. (20:49) And sometimes when you bet wrong, you win.(20:51) It's all about rationality.

Alan Lazaros

(20:53) It's awesome.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:53) You will get better. (20:54) We're going to talk about that tomorrow. (20:55) We're going to talk about that same exact same.(20:57) Not tomorrow. (20:58) We're doing a part two. (20:59) We're going to talk about that in the future.(21:01) Very near future. (21:02) The very nice. (21:03) All right, cool.(21:03) As always, we love you. (21:04) We appreciate you. (21:05) Grateful for each and every one of you.(21:06) And if you are as committed as you say you are to getting to the next level, make sure you tune in tomorrow because we're going to do a part two on this. (21:12) And we'll help you get a little bit better every single day. (21:14) Keep reaching your full potential.(21:17) Next information. (21:20) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University. (21:23) We love connecting with the Next Level family.(21:26) We mean it when we say family. (21:28) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. (21:32) Everything you need to get a hold of us is in the show notes.(21:35) Thank you again. (21:36) And we will talk to you tomorrow.