Is Work-Life Balance Actually Real? (PT2) (2413)

Is balance actually the goal, or is it the excuse that keeps you average?

In today’s episode, Kevin and Alan challenge the idea that work-life balance is as simple as splitting your time evenly. After revisiting a blind spot from the previous episode, they take a deeper look at why family, fitness, relationships, and career success do not become strong by default. Through honest reflection, coaching patterns, and lessons built across thousands of episodes, they unpack the tension between personal growth, social development, and professional achievement.

They also share how their own priorities, relationships, and seasons of growth have shaped the way they think about harmony, sacrifice, and long-term consistency. This episode is for anyone trying to build a stronger life without pretending the cost is smaller than it is. Press play before “balance” becomes the polished word you use to avoid better standards.

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For more information, check out our website and socials using the links below. 👇

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Show notes:
(3:15) Why family success is not automatic
(6:16) Why all three areas matter
(10:19) The hidden cost of social life
(13:00) Belonging, resistance, and being different
(16:11) Going all in versus building harmony
(17:42) The cost of maximizing everything
(20:33) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) Yesterday's episode might have been the most off I have ever been in terms of a take, an opinion, a perspective. (0:09) I essentially said having love and family success is easier than all the other ones. (0:17) Blind spot.(0:18) That's an L. (0:18) That's on me. (0:19) Take full responsibility for that.(0:21) I appreciate it, man.

Alan Lazaros

(0:22) So this is going to be a part two on that. (0:24) I want to talk about social development, personal development, and professional development. (0:30) And I want to talk about each one and how to build them.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:33) Welcome to Next Level University. (0:35) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri. (0:37) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.(0:40) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven, but no BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

(0:47) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:53) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

(1:09) Self-improvement in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:16) Welcome to Next Level University. (1:21) Next Level Nation today for episode number 2,412. (1:24) Sorry, 2413.(1:27) It's part two. (1:28) Is work-life balance actually real? (1:30) Part two.(1:31) That's not at all what you just said. (1:33) You didn't say anything about what I thought we were going to talk about. (1:36) Yeah.(1:36) What are we talking about?

Alan Lazaros

(1:38) Well, it is though, because social development, personal development, and professional development is a balance. (1:47) So work-life balance would be the balance between social development, professional development, and personal development. (1:56) Professional development would be work, and then social development is kind of both, and then personal development is yourself.(2:04) And so you break them into each category. (2:06) So it's harmony. (2:08) How do you harmonize the three?(2:09) How do you figure out which one's your strong one, which one's your weak one? (2:11) I think everyone has a strong one, everyone has a weak one, and everyone has a decent one.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:15) Statistically speaking, what is the strongest? (2:18) That's really, I want that social. (2:20) For sure.(2:20) From your coaching, that's what you'd say. (2:23) Yeah, social.

Alan Lazaros

(2:23) My coaching's unique though. (2:26) I can't guess. (2:27) My coaching is a subset of people who get a coach.(2:29) If you had to guess, if you had to guess. (2:31) Are you talking about my clients or are you talking about the world?

Kevin Palmieri

(2:33) In general. (2:34) The world.

Alan Lazaros

(2:34) It's social development. (2:35) For sure. (2:35) Everything, it's alarming how much your social life impacts you.(2:40) Most people are, 90% of their decision-making is predicated on their social group.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:44) Are you saying that's their strongest development though? (2:47) What's the strongest development? (2:49) Probably social development.(2:50) That's, so then my answer tracks.

Alan Lazaros

(2:53) That doesn't mean you can build a magnificent family long-term. (2:56) That doesn't mean you're going to be a great mom or dad or husband or wife.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:00) What I am saying is, I think when it comes to home, I don't even know how to, I guess love, right? (3:10) Fitness, what are we doing? (3:11) Fitness, finance, family?

Alan Lazaros

(3:12) Family. (3:13) Fitness, finance, and family. (3:14) Family.(3:15) Family is, I do relationship talks coaching. (3:19) Emilia does Evolve Ventures coaching. (3:22) I coach therapists, several.(3:26) Everyone's family is wildly dysfunctional to some extent. (3:31) Yeah, for sure. (3:31) So you made it sound like, oh, you just stay home and your family's going to be great.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:38) No, that's not what I'm trying to say. (3:40) What I'm trying to say is you get the most out of the least with that. (3:44) That's what I'm trying to say.(3:45) I don't agree. (3:47) If you don't work on your family life. (3:50) Yeah, but if you're an entrepreneur and you work as much on your family life as you do your business, you're fucked.(3:57) Agreed. (3:58) Same with fitness. (4:00) Agreed.(4:01) That's why, but I don't know.

Alan Lazaros

(4:02) I'm not saying it to minimize it. (4:05) Because I know. (4:05) I'm not saying it to minimize.(4:06) You made it sound like it's the easiest, when in reality, it's just the one people defaulted to. (4:13) But they don't do it well. (4:16) I mean, out of a hundred random people on earth, how many of them are magnificent mothers or magnificent fathers?(4:22) It's very. (4:23) I don't know. (4:23) I don't want to come off like a dick, but I want to call a spade a spade.(4:28) And I know that that's probably the wrong saying. (4:30) So whatever. (4:31) Didn't you find out that that was like racist?(4:33) I believe.

Kevin Palmieri

(4:33) Yeah, I think like in the. (4:34) It originally came from like the Roman times. (4:38) And I think in the 1920s, it took a racist turn.(4:41) Unfortunately. (4:41) Got it.

Alan Lazaros

(4:41) Yes. (4:41) All good. (4:42) At the end of the day, that's not what I meant.(4:44) It is what I meant, but I'm not going to use that saying anymore. (4:46) Here's my point. (4:47) I want to be extremely accurate and truthful, regardless of how it might come off, obviously.(4:54) I think that the majority of people are not prepared for being a magnificent husband or wife or mother or father. (5:06) I have several clients who have children. (5:09) They've worked on themselves way more than the statistical norm, and they're still not nearly as good as they could be.(5:18) The reason Emilia and I waited so long and why I waited so long is one of the reasons is because I wanted to be prepared. (5:25) There's a lot of people having kids when they're 22. (5:28) It's like.(5:28) For sure. (5:28) You're not really ready. (5:30) And a lot of people.(5:31) And again, it's like, Alan, easy for you to say. (5:32) You don't have kids. (5:33) Listen, there's a personal development, professional development and social development level that you can get to where you become a really constructive parent rather than a destructive one.(5:44) I had destructive parenting growing up, and I think you did to some extent, too. (5:52) Take me under the bus with you. (5:55) No, no, you got to.(5:56) The truth is like you are just wildly off in that and like you and Taron aren't going to be parents. (6:04) I think that's a fucking travesty. (6:07) I understand that because you guys, I think, would be good parents.(6:10) I appreciate that. (6:11) And I don't say that lately. (6:12) I appreciate.(6:12) I don't think that we may adopt at some point. (6:14) I don't know. (6:14) We're going to see.(6:15) All right. (6:16) We're going to see. (6:16) The point I'm making is all three matter.(6:19) None of them are easy and they just seem easy to you if that's your good one.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:27) And it's so it's such a we have these things we call like trampoline moments where it just bounces off. (6:33) It's like I can't fitness. (6:36) You seriously don't think you're good at social development?(6:38) It's not even that I'm really good at fitness, too, and I'm really good at making money. (6:45) Honestly, I'm not. (6:46) I'm really good at fitness.(6:47) OK, yeah, statistically speaking, I'm really good at making money. (6:52) Yeah, but you weren't always. (6:53) No, but I wasn't always good in relationships either.

Alan Lazaros

(6:56) You just think that I wasn't always of the three personal development, social development, professional development without a fucking law class. (7:04) I was in your law class. (7:06) You had everyone pitted against me.(7:10) Honestly, you did that to yourself. (7:12) No, I did that to yourself. (7:14) You didn't fucking help.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:16) OK, I'm trying it's I'm just trying to make a point land and I don't know how, but I don't think it's incorrect from my perspective is all I'm saying. (7:25) I just feel like everything else is you have to go out and chase it. (7:30) You got to go out and chase fitness.

Alan Lazaros

(7:32) You got to go out and chase family, too.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:34) So I just the blind spot is like, I just think you're there already. (7:38) So you just have to show up and do good there as opposed to going out. (7:42) Yeah, probably.(7:44) It's so hard to do like, dude, growing up stats growing up real good. (7:50) Do not support this for me at all. (7:51) Fifty percent of people are overweight or obese.(7:55) Fifty percent of people get divorced like the numbers are. (7:58) Yeah, they're not in my favor. (8:00) I know that.(8:01) I understand that.

Alan Lazaros

(8:02) You don't coach therapists. (8:04) That's very clear to me, because the cool thing about coaching and therapy is you just learn so much from so many people and and you don't. (8:16) I don't just see the Instagram account.(8:17) I get to see the bank account like that's that's you just lose all delusion that anyone has like a well adjusted, solid family life. (8:28) It's a spectrum. (8:29) Some people really do have a really nice family and some people it's like awful, just fucking atrociously bad and everything in between.(8:38) But like you didn't think of someone growing up who you think is an awful father. (8:47) OK, yeah, that wasn't hard. (8:49) No.(8:50) OK, now think of an awful mother. (8:52) Boom. (8:52) Done.(8:53) OK, that's my point. (8:55) No, you don't default to social development. (8:58) You default to like being whatever you are, but there's very few people who work on their social development consciously.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:06) What do you think? (9:07) What do you think you can get the most out of with the least effort? (9:11) Out of those three?(9:16) None. (9:17) Have you had to pick? (9:18) No.(9:19) No, you have to in this in this.

Alan Lazaros

(9:21) Whichever one you're naturally your innate ability, whichever one you're naturally gifted in.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:25) You don't think there is just one like naturally that has less resistance?

Alan Lazaros

(9:30) Dude, I brother, I was an engineer like you can't tell people what you really think. (9:36) And engineers are like, I always make the joke. (9:39) It's like, do I look fat in this?(9:40) Yes. (9:40) At level six out of ten. (9:43) Like, I'm not joking.(9:45) I actually think people are fat. (9:47) You just aren't allowed to say it. (9:49) When I was younger, I didn't know you couldn't say it like I had to learn that through massive pain and failure.(9:55) Right. (9:56) And so you just learned the social world. (10:00) That's why you've always known what people are going to think of me.(10:02) Half the shit I say, you're like, oh, fuck. (10:04) Like, that's your thing. (10:06) It's a piece of it.(10:07) It's a piece of it. (10:08) Zero to ten.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:09) How certain are you everyone's going to like you? (10:11) But I think statistically more people are like me. (10:14) So in my mind, if I had to pick one category, I think that's why I go there.

Alan Lazaros

(10:19) I think people do tend to focus on that one more. (10:22) So that's probably why you feel that way. (10:24) But that doesn't mean it doesn't mean it's easier with minimal effort.(10:27) Think about how much effort people put into birthdays and barbecues and get togethers and social life. (10:33) When I had a thriving social life, people were jealous of that. (10:36) I had an ex that was like, I want a social life like yours.(10:39) I had two exes. (10:40) As a matter of fact, I think all my exes were jealous of, well, you're so close with all your high school friends. (10:45) I remember saying, I don't want this to come off wrong, but it's not what you think.(10:51) Yeah, I love them and they love me, but this is fucking terrible. (10:55) And it's holding me back. (10:57) That's the truth.(10:58) This is wildly holding me back. (11:00) You can't change the world and be buddies with your high school fucking friends. (11:05) That's not a thing.(11:06) And so you have to choose. (11:08) You have to choose your syntax. (11:09) So no, none of them come easy with minimal effort.(11:12) Not at all. (11:13) Absolutely not.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:15) I'm not saying minimum, I'm just saying less. (11:18) You said which one you get the most out of for the least amount of effort. (11:20) I would be terrible at debates because I just admit, it's like, yeah, no, you're right.(11:24) You're right. (11:25) You're right. (11:26) You don't always.(11:27) Sometimes you argue. (11:29) I know this is one of those situations where it's like, it's definitely a blind spot for me. (11:34) But I just, I don't know.(11:36) It's like, maybe that's what it is, is the success externally, I think is so far outside of the norm where like, most people want to come home at night and spend time with their family and eat dinner with their family and have breakfast with whatever, right? (11:54) Most people want to do that. (11:55) So that's already in the direction that I think most people want to live.(11:58) And you have to sacrifice if you're, if you have family centered paradigm, you have to sacrifice so much of that to go become externally successful. (12:07) Agreed. (12:07) So I think maybe that's, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Alan Lazaros

(12:09) I do think more people statistically have a family paradigm than an achievement paradigm.

Kevin Palmieri

(12:14) Yeah. (12:14) Yeah. (12:15) So it's, that's, I think that's why in my mind, if the paradigm is aligned, it's easier.(12:20) If you're, if you have a family centered paradigm, it's easier, quote unquote, because you already think about it this way.

Alan Lazaros

(12:26) This is a deeper layer and I'm glad we're doing this. (12:29) If let's say 80% of the globe has a family paradigm and there's still very few families that are well adjusted and kind to each other.

Kevin Palmieri

(12:39) Yeah, that's fair.

Alan Lazaros

(12:39) Like it doesn't, it's not easy. (12:42) It's not easy. (12:43) That like saying that is so silly.

Kevin Palmieri

(12:46) Less resistance. (12:47) When I say easy, I, that's the thing. (12:50) I'm not saying you're going to succeed at it easily.(12:54) I'm saying it's less resistance to do it. (12:58) Yeah. (12:58) Fair.(12:59) Because we're social animals.

Alan Lazaros

(13:00) Because we're so, yeah, that's all, that's all I mean by that. (13:02) Because of the belonging theory, that I would say is true. (13:03) Okay.(13:04) Yeah. (13:04) I'm not saying. (13:04) Less resistance.(13:05) I think there's a lot of resistance when you override that because you're going against the majority. (13:11) I heard this on Mindset, Miles from Mindset recently. (13:15) I loved it.(13:16) Said different scares people. (13:20) And if you want to be great, you have to be very different and different scares people. (13:25) And I think that that's why being really successful is much harder is because you have to go against the norm because the majority of people have a family paradigm.

Kevin Palmieri

(13:35) Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(13:36) Like you and I didn't, which is interesting.

Kevin Palmieri

(13:39) I had a moment last night where Taryn didn't get home. (13:43) She got home like an hour after I finished work. (13:46) And I was like, if I was single, I would probably work like 17 hours every single day.(13:52) I would just work because I would have nothing else to do. (13:55) I would have nobody waiting for me. (13:56) It would be fucking terrible.(13:57) I'm not, it's not nice. (13:58) It would be bad. (14:00) But that.(14:00) What the fuck? (14:01) When you were single, I wish we had that. (14:02) I know.(14:03) Well, now I, it's different now, right? (14:05) Yeah. (14:05) But that's, that's, that's the call of duty.(14:10) I don't even know where my PlayStation is anymore. (14:12) God, I'd be so much better now if I, if we could start over.

Alan Lazaros

(14:15) You have screwed us over. (14:16) I know you're going to go.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:17) I do have to hop in a minute, but that, that was interesting for me because I have a family quote unquote, and I want to make sure that I'm a, I'm a positive member of my family. (14:26) I'll, I'll be at a very small family, Tyra and I and two cats. (14:29) Yeah.(14:30) That's important to me. (14:31) If I, if that, if I could just not work out, oh my God, my life would be so much easier.

Alan Lazaros

(14:38) Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:39) On the day to day. (14:39) Exponentially easier. (14:40) When I got to 60 and 70 and 80, it would be exponentially harder.(14:45) If I was single and I didn't have to work out. (14:48) What? (14:50) And I wouldn't be.

Alan Lazaros

(14:51) So you think success would be much easier that way?

Kevin Palmieri

(14:53) I think if you got rid of one of these completely, of course. (14:56) Now the detriment of it is bigger than the success.

Alan Lazaros

(14:59) It wouldn't long term. (15:00) Right, right. (15:00) Because then you couldn't work in your 60s, 70s.(15:02) I have a new client who's 71. (15:05) I know you got to go. (15:07) And, uh, he, he's going to have me coach his team.(15:11) And again, we'll see. (15:12) It's, it's new, but I intend on, I, this, and he and I talked, I said, well, okay, you're going to sell your company. (15:22) And I was like, so you're getting ready for it to sell.(15:25) So you need to double net and all this kind of, not going to get into the business stuff, but do you want me to help you sell it? (15:31) Or do you want me to be like a fractional CEO and like, get your team, get their ass in gear, right? (15:37) I can do whichever one you want or both.(15:39) And he's like, I'm not sure yet. (15:40) Like, let me know what you think. (15:41) We're going to meet them.(15:42) My point of this is I said, well, what about you? (15:45) Like how much longer are you going to work? (15:47) And he's like, I don't think I ever want to retire.(15:49) I was like, good for you. (15:50) Okay. (15:50) He's like, I'm not going to be like doing as much as I used to, but I'm not going to retire.(15:57) My point of this is if you got rid of health and love, you'd be so lonely that you'd be pulled off of work.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:07) I'm not saying it's sustainable or long-term. (16:10) I'm just saying in a vacuum. (16:10) So what?

Alan Lazaros

(16:11) It would be better for like three weeks. (16:13) This is the debate we should have at some point is like, are you better off going all in on one thing or actually harmonizing these three? (16:22) I say one is too few, five is too many.(16:24) I think this is why. (16:25) Because I don't agree. (16:27) I think that if I didn't have Emilia, I would have to go meet my needs for love and belonging in some other ways that would be way less optimal.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:36) But think about how much you grinded and how much progress you made when you were single. (16:41) I'm way more effective now. (16:43) Yeah.(16:43) Because it's later in life, of course. (16:45) And because it's Emilia. (16:46) Yeah.(16:46) But, but if you had the same capabilities you have now back then, you would be more, you would have been fucking more. (16:52) Of course. (16:54) Of course.(16:54) Because I would have been trying to meet my needs by, I would be going on dates. (16:59) No, you met your needs by just sitting in the fucking studio from 6am until 9pm. (17:03) And it was awesome.(17:05) It was the best. (17:06) Well, we can debate about that for sure. (17:08) I'm not saying it's not at all.

Alan Lazaros

(17:10) And then the health thing, that's silly as hell because without longevity, you can't work in your 60s, 70s.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:15) I'm saying in a fucking vacuum. (17:18) But that's not real life. (17:20) I understand.

Alan Lazaros

(17:22) But neither is work life balance. (17:24) So what you're saying is, you want people to understand, our listeners to understand that it's going to be way harder. (17:31) It's going to seem way harder.(17:34) Yeah, of course. (17:35) Okay. (17:35) It's going to seem way harder and that's okay.(17:37) But it's way better. (17:37) But it's worth it. (17:38) And it's way better.(17:38) Yeah, you're most likely. (17:39) And you think it'll help them to know that? (17:41) Why?

Kevin Palmieri

(17:42) Because it'll help you get rid of the delusion that you're going to, I don't, I don't know. (17:50) It's really hard to maximize one of these, never mind three of these. (17:55) And if you want to maximize three, you're going to have to get rid of almost everything outside of that, which is like, cool.(18:04) You get one way to exercise. (18:05) You can have like one hobby, you know, just one, pick one. (18:09) You probably.

Alan Lazaros

(18:10) Make sure it's exercise. (18:11) Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:11) Make sure it moves your body. (18:12) You can have like five people in your family.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:15) That's good.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:16) Five people. (18:17) And then. (18:18) Fair.(18:18) I mean, you got to be on with your career. (18:21) You got to be on. (18:22) Can't miss.(18:23) And you can't miss in any of these. (18:24) And you have to get better at all of them forever and say yes to good things and no to bad things. (18:29) And just last thing promise.(18:31) Yes, please.

Alan Lazaros

(18:31) What's the syntax that I hope everyone leaves with that. (18:35) For me, it's professional development. (18:36) First, personal development.(18:40) Second, social development. (18:41) Third, I have no social life. (18:44) Like I don't care.(18:46) I used to have all social life. (18:48) It used to be social life. (18:50) First.(18:50) No, it used to be professional for social. (18:52) Second, personal. (18:53) Third.(18:53) Now it's professional. (18:55) First, personal. (18:56) Second, social.(18:57) Third. (18:57) And that feels right to me. (18:59) I don't want a thriving social life.(19:01) I could give a fuck about any of that. (19:03) That's my truth. (19:03) But maybe that's also because I had so much of it in the past.(19:06) What's my order from your perspective? (19:09) I don't know. (19:10) It's definitely not social.(19:11) First, it is in terms of your skills. (19:13) But I would say it's personal development. (19:15) First, social.(19:17) Second and professional. (19:18) Third, fucking far. (19:19) Third.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:20) Tell us how you feel.

Alan Lazaros

(19:21) No, no. (19:22) Tell us how you feel. (19:23) You hate it.(19:24) You hate professional development. (19:26) You always have. (19:27) I like books.(19:27) You fucking hate it. (19:28) I like being successful. (19:30) But you hate algorithms to live by.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:33) No, I like that book.

Alan Lazaros

(19:35) Well, then you have changed a lot.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:36) I really do. (19:37) I really enjoy it.

Alan Lazaros

(19:38) You don't even like LinkedIn. (19:39) You don't like doing resumes and cover letters. (19:41) I know.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:41) I'm just saying. (19:42) Oh, you'll never believe. (19:44) I just went through the rockiest divorce ever.(19:46) It was terrible. (19:47) And I got kicked out of my house. (19:48) And that is what I learned about leadership.(19:51) Fuck that. (19:52) That's terrible. (19:52) Get out of here with that.(19:54) Get out of here with that.

Alan Lazaros

(19:55) I know what you're doing. (19:55) You used to like professional development. (19:56) You've never liked time management and productivity and leadership and effective communication.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:01) You've always hated that shit. (20:02) Because most of the people that I learned it from, it was just dry as shit. (20:06) It's the same reason most people don't like math.(20:08) Okay, fair. (20:08) Cool. (20:09) Well, then you're evolving.(20:10) I am. (20:10) I'm trying to evolve. (20:11) I'm trying to evolve.(20:12) For sure. (20:13) All right. (20:13) You used to hate books.(20:15) You're like, I fucking hated reading. (20:17) I hate it less now. (20:18) Nice.(20:19) Cool. (20:20) But again, I don't like a lot of the stuff I do. (20:22) So I don't know anymore.(20:23) I'm just getting, I just have gotten used to doing things I don't enjoy. (20:25) And now I'm like, yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(20:26) We've caught Kevin. (20:27) I'm trying to sell existential crisis.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:30) Personal development's the best, even though I hate it. (20:32) You'll be grateful you did it. (20:33) All right, we gotta go.(20:33) As always, we love you. (20:34) We appreciate you. (20:35) Grateful for each and every one of you.(20:36) If you are as committed as you say you are to getting to the next level, make sure to tune in tomorrow because we will be here every single day to help you get there. (20:42) Keep leveling up to reach your full potential.

Alan Lazaros

(20:44) Next Level Nation.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:46) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University. (20:50) We love connecting with the Next Level family.

Alan Lazaros

(20:53) We mean it when we say family. (20:55) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. (20:58) Everything you need to get ahold of us is in the show notes.(21:02) Thank you again, and we will talk to you tomorrow.