Is Shame A Good Teacher? (2418)

Shame can either sharpen your standards or quietly destroy your identity. In this episode of Next Level University, Kevin and Alan talk about one of the most misunderstood parts of personal development: whether shame is a useful teacher or a destructive force.

They separate shame, guilt, regret, accountability, and behavior change with the kind of clarity that comes from thousands of episodes, coaching patterns, and years of studying human performance. Kevin and Alan also challenge the idea that all self-judgment is unhealthy, showing why growth requires both compassion and honest ownership.

If you have ever confused “I did something wrong” with “something is wrong with me,” this episode is worth a listen.

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For more information, check out our website and socials using the links below. 👇

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Email:
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Kevin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-palmieri-5b7736160/
Alan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alanlazarosllc/

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Show notes:
(2:00) The difference between shame and guilt
(2:51) Behavior change is the real goal
(6:28) When shame becomes regret
(8:18) Identity, belief, and personal change
(11:08) Using compassion without avoiding ownership
(15:53) Standards, ego, and responsibility
(18:08) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) I do not believe shame is a good teacher.
(0:04) And the reason I don't believe shame is a good teacher is because shame is there is something wrong with me.
(0:10) And I think if you're at the point where you haven't done a lot of work on yourself and you're blaming yourself and you're blaming your inadequacies and you're like identifying and taking them on as an identity, I don't think that's probably a great place to start.

Alan Lazaros

(0:24) I know there is a purpose to shame.
(0:28) I want to understand that and understand where or when in what amount might be appropriate based on the last episode we did on the hormesis concept.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:40) Welcome to Next Level University.
(0:42) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri.
(0:44) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazarus.
(0:47) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven but no BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

(0:54) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:00) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

(1:16) Self-improvement in your pocket every day from anywhere completely free.
(1:23) Welcome to Next Level University.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:29) Next Level Nation today for episode number 2418 is shame a good teacher.
(1:35) So we're on a streak of very similar episodes.
(1:38) I told Alan, I was like, Alan was the external guy.
(1:41) He's like, dude, I want to talk about success.
(1:42) And we've been talking about a lot of internal stuff lately, which is great for me because I love that.
(1:47) It's like my favorite thing in the world.
(1:48) Potential is external.
(1:49) Yeah, but we were talking about internally.
(1:52) We're talking about like the internal unlocks.
(1:54) All right.
(1:55) What's your thesis for today's episode?
(1:57) Shame, regret, embarrassment.

Alan Lazaros

(2:00) We got to start with what shame is and what it's not.
(2:05) So shame, the most famous person on earth for talking about shame and vulnerability is Brene Brown.
(2:15) I have extensively learned from Brene's work.
(2:22) And she was a researcher for like 20 years, vulnerability, shame, the whole nine.
(2:29) And she says, shame is I am bad, guilt is I did a bad thing.
(2:38) And she says that shame is productive.
(2:41) No, no, guilt is productive.
(2:43) Shame is not.
(2:44) I'm going to clarify that.
(2:46) Shame is I'm a bad person.
(2:48) Guilt is I did a bad thing.
(2:51) This episode exists because Emily and I co-coach and I, as a coach, we have different approaches and different priorities.
(3:05) So my priority as a coach is getting you to change your fucking behavior.
(3:11) I think anyone can tell themselves a new story of, oh, it's okay.
(3:15) It's okay.
(3:15) No worries.
(3:16) Oh, it's okay.
(3:17) Yeah.
(3:17) No, I'm just big boned.
(3:18) I'm big boned.
(3:20) Change your fucking behavior.
(3:22) I don't believe knowledge is power.
(3:24) I believe behavior change is power.
(3:27) If you can get yourself to do the things that are necessary to achieve your goals and dreams, I believe not only you'll be successful, but you can also be fulfilled assuming they are the optimal goals and dreams for you.
(3:40) So I've been asking her over the last year or two, cause as co-coaches, we're trying to figure out how to help people more, better, more, better, always more, better, more, better, more, better.
(3:50) And, uh, I said, shame has to have like a fucking constructive.
(3:58) There has to be a purpose in evolution.
(4:00) There's a purpose to everything.
(4:01) Like we have opposable thumbs so that we can build shit.
(4:03) Like everything has a purpose.
(4:05) All emotions have a purpose.
(4:06) Anger has a purpose.
(4:09) If, if another tribe 200,000 years ago were to kill your family, you're supposed to get angry and kill theirs, not their family, but them.
(4:17) And again, that's an oversimplification, but the truth of the matter is if you study evolutionary psychology, you see that there's a purpose to everything.
(4:26) There's a reason why birds have wings and you get it.
(4:30) So, so everyone has a adaptive evolutionary advantage or not.
(4:34) And if you don't believe in evolution, you need to read some science books because evolution is without a question, a hundred thousand million percent factual.
(4:43) Now the point I'm making here is all emotions have a purpose, whether or not that's constructive or destructive goes back to the last episode.
(4:54) If you want to change your behavior, I think the unfortunate truth is people use shame to control people.
(5:06) I'm not saying that I'm not saying that what I'm saying is what if, what if you found a way to, to change your own behavior while utilizing said emotion called shame, you call it emotional feeling, whatever you opened with disagreeing with that.
(5:27) I think we should talk about it.
(5:28) And ultimately I know guilt is constructive.
(5:32) They call it adaptive, maladaptive shame.
(5:35) Adaptive is guilt.
(5:37) This is therapist talk.
(5:41) Adaptive just means it's constructive.
(5:43) Maladaptive means it's destructive.
(5:45) So drinking alcohol is usually maladaptive.
(5:48) It's usually destructive.
(5:50) Not always, but usually.
(5:53) And so every human being on earth has constructive or destructive tendencies.
(5:58) And how do we get on the constructive end?
(6:01) And the last thing to sum up here is I think that I use shame to get my fucking ass in gear, but I also don't know if that's true because Emilia says that I alchemize shame, which I think what she means is I bond it with compassion somehow, even though it doesn't sound like it, and then take action almost immediately.
(6:24) I don't identify with my shame.
(6:26) That's what she's saying.
(6:27) I don't.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:28) I think you bond it with belief.
(6:30) I think the difference between shame and regret is regret is shame with reflection and potential belief that you could change it.
(6:38) Where I think shame is like, I'm a, I'm a fucking loser.
(6:41) I'm this because I am this, I'm taking on this identity because I did this thing.
(6:46) I haven't had time yet to reflect on what does that mean about me?
(6:51) Disconnect from the fact that it does not make me that thing.
(6:54) That was a behavior that I practiced.

Alan Lazaros

(6:56) But if you disconnect too much from your behavior, that's also a dangerous game.
(7:02) Well, yeah, because you, if you're not your behavior, what are you?
(7:05) Right?
(7:05) Like I think there's gotta be a constructive level of tying your behavior and your identity together, but if they're overly enmeshed, like I punched a hole in my ex-girlfriend's door once when I was angry, I was ashamed of that.
(7:22) And that I was like, I'm never doing that again.
(7:25) And okay, let me reflect on why.
(7:27) Okay.
(7:28) I was drinking.
(7:29) I got really angry.
(7:30) I was, I was not telling her all of what I really feel.
(7:33) I bottled it up.
(7:34) Right.
(7:35) That whole thing.
(7:36) So I don't think I'm a bad person because I punched a hole in a door.
(7:41) I think that was suboptimal.
(7:43) You fucking idiot.
(7:45) But maybe that's guilt.
(7:47) And maybe I just, you know, but I definitely was ashamed of that back in the day, I think.
(7:52) And when I told you about it, when you express these things you're ashamed of, I think that you can transform it into positive change.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:01) I think it just requires a very high level of self-belief going back to that.
(8:05) That's been like the theme because in real time you have to disconnect.
(8:09) Okay.
(8:09) This was behavior.
(8:10) This is not my identity.
(8:11) I can change my behavior very quickly as opposed to changing my identity, which you also do very quickly.

Alan Lazaros

(8:18) If you, if you identify as someone who can change their identity and change their behavior, you're not going to get stuck in shame as long or as often.
(8:32) And there's someone I was coaching yesterday who has ADHD and he calls it the real stuff, not the fake stuff.
(8:38) I've got the real thing, you know, before people started trying to get And he said there was a point in the coaching session when he was like, yeah, I've been working on fixing myself.
(8:52) And he immediately said, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(8:55) Fixing you has the presupposition that you're broken.
(8:58) We don't use that fucking language.
(9:00) You're not broken.
(9:02) You're neurodivergent.
(9:03) You're different.
(9:04) You think differently.
(9:05) And you're not broken.
(9:07) You're not something broken that needs fixing.
(9:09) You're someone who is different, who needs to learn how to adapt and work with those differences rather than you're fucked up or whatever.
(9:19) Like maybe that's what it is.
(9:22) Is like, if you don't have a positive identity, shame must be really terrible.

Kevin Palmieri

(9:29) Or if you don't think you can control it.
(9:32) I think that's a big piece.
(9:34) Like, yeah.
(9:35) How many people, again, I always go to the porn addiction thing because I think with men, that is one of the things most people are probably low key ashamed about that they just never talk about.
(9:43) I didn't talk about it when I was like in the midst of it.
(9:47) I didn't talk about it then because I was still ashamed of it.
(9:49) I talked about it when I got some level of control on it and I felt like it was constructive to talk about it.
(9:55) I think if the, who said this?
(9:58) I don't remember where we got this from.
(10:00) I think it was a podcast guest.
(10:02) You don't share things when they're open wounds.
(10:04) You share them when they're scabs, scars, scars that I think that's shame.
(10:09) You can't, you can't share it while it's still open and you're deep in it.
(10:16) I think you have to wait until it heals a little bit.
(10:18) And I think as it heals, you start to regret it.

Alan Lazaros

(10:20) And then you, aren't there things that we should be ashamed of though?
(10:25) Yeah, for sure.
(10:25) Like, aren't you, when you, when you hear someone say, oh, that person has no shame, like that's not compliment.
(10:30) You know, that means the person is an egotistical prick who hurts others without any remorse or, or, you know, so I just don't think it goes from shame to behavior change immediately.

Kevin Palmieri

(10:44) I think it goes to shame reflection and then something happens.
(10:48) Maybe that's the point of shame.

Alan Lazaros

(10:50) Maybe that's the point of shame is to reflect like, you know, that was kind of, what's the opposite of shame?
(10:54) I don't know.
(10:57) Yeah.
(10:57) I don't know.
(10:58) Vulnerability.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:02) Self-esteem.
(11:04) Pride, dignity, honor, self-compassion.
(11:07) Honor.

Alan Lazaros

(11:08) Yeah.
(11:09) So compassion, you know, it's like H2O.
(11:13) It's two oxygen molecules.
(11:15) No, two hydrogens, one oxygen.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:17) Yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(11:18) So a molecule is two atoms.
(11:21) It's you have atoms and they make molecules.
(11:25) The point I'm making is when you are ashamed of something, I think that you can merge it with compassion and constructive criticism or constructive judgment or constructive, like, I actually think we should judge ourselves based on our actions.
(11:44) I actually think that's constructive.
(11:46) You should be, I mean, if you're a shithead, you should own that and work on it.
(11:50) For sure.
(11:51) There's an acceptance piece that starts before all behavior change.
(11:54) It's like the first step is, okay, I am an angry person.
(12:00) Okay.
(12:01) My anger is, and this is hypothetical, although I do think I'm frustrated often.
(12:08) I think my anger is getting to a place where it's negatively affecting others in my life.
(12:13) Okay.
(12:14) No one's going to go work on something that they don't acknowledge.

Kevin Palmieri

(12:17) Let me ask you a question.
(12:18) When you feel shamed, do you feel like it takes, like the Jenga tower, do you feel like it takes blocks out?
(12:24) And when you feel shamed about something and then like, how long does it last?

Alan Lazaros

(12:36) Uh, probably like, so it used to be longer.
(12:39) I used to say this.
(12:41) I, back in high school, I had like bad months.
(12:44) And then in college I had like bad weeks.
(12:46) And then after college, I had bad weekends.
(12:49) And then eventually it was bad days.
(12:51) And then eventually it was only a morning, afternoon or evening.
(12:53) And now it's, I mean, now it's bad 20 minutes.
(12:56) I get back into, but that's not shame necessarily.
(13:01) No, I do think it is though.
(13:04) I, um, okay.
(13:05) Even something as simple as I, I said I would.
(13:10) Okay.
(13:11) So we do mobility every day and the standard is 20 minutes.
(13:14) And if I only do 10 minutes, I feel ashamed of that for sure.
(13:18) Oh, you fucking lazy motherfucker.
(13:21) Of course I do.
(13:23) That's how I make sure I do 20 minutes.
(13:27) What do you say about you?

Kevin Palmieri

(13:29) What does that mean about you?

Alan Lazaros

(13:30) You're better than that.
(13:32) Like you're better than that.
(13:33) What the fuck are we doing here?
(13:34) You're so much better than that.
(13:36) Like, how lazy are you?
(13:38) That, you know, the bully myself quote we talked about.
(13:41) Yeah.
(13:41) Like, do you not bully yourself?

Kevin Palmieri

(13:45) I, I do, but not the way you do insert in fitness.
(13:50) Again, in fitness, I'm like swearing at myself.
(13:52) Like lift the fuck Kev lift.
(13:53) Okay.
(13:54) So what are we doing?
(13:54) So what about that?

Alan Lazaros

(13:55) Do you, are you ashamed when you get a shitty workout?
(13:58) No, no, seriously.
(14:01) No, I, I feel shame every time I'm below my own standard in anything.
(14:05) I feel ashamed of saying a word to you recently.
(14:08) I feel like you probably just have a different relationship with shame.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:12) Maybe.

Alan Lazaros

(14:12) Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:13) I don't know.

Alan Lazaros

(14:14) Trying to figure out why.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:14) Yeah.
(14:15) You know what I'm talking about?
(14:16) Yes.
(14:17) Yes.
(14:17) I think it's because you don't connect it to, I thought about that today.

Alan Lazaros

(14:22) I will repeatedly, repeatedly feel shame about that until I change it or maybe guilt, maybe guilt.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:28) Yeah.
(14:29) Yeah.
(14:29) Yeah.
(14:29) I don't know.
(14:30) Again, this is an interesting conversation, but you, you literally said I'm so much better than that.
(14:35) What if you didn't have that?

Alan Lazaros

(14:37) I don't know.

Kevin Palmieri

(14:38) I think that's where the cycle, I think that's where it gets fucking stuck is like, that's your not out.
(14:44) You know what I mean?

Alan Lazaros

(14:45) I think people with a positive identity like me should feel shame.
(14:50) Think about someone who feels no shame.
(14:53) That's not good.
(14:55) No, yeah, I agree.
(14:56) I agree.
(14:56) Okay.
(14:56) But people on your end of the drive to five probably shouldn't get stuck in shame.

Kevin Palmieri

(15:03) I think your self-compassion probably happens.
(15:08) I don't know.
(15:09) Maybe you just have a very high set point of self-compassion where you can just give your, like, you know what I mean?
(15:15) Remember how you, remember how you said, I don't remember what the thing was, but like your natural set point for happiness and vibe and energy and mental health is just very high.
(15:25) Mine is much lower.

Alan Lazaros

(15:27) Yeah.
(15:27) Agreed.

Kevin Palmieri

(15:27) For sure.
(15:29) I think it's connected to the drive to five, to be honest.
(15:31) I agree.
(15:32) I agree.
(15:33) But if I beat myself up as much as you did about everything, that would make it worse.
(15:38) Fitness is the best thing in speaking.
(15:40) If I fuck something up, like as a podcaster, if I mess something up, I beat myself up pretty bad, but that's because I know I should be better because I've been doing this for a long fucking time.
(15:50) But in the beginning, it wasn't that way.

Alan Lazaros

(15:53) If you have, I know we got to jump.
(15:55) If we have like, okay.
(15:57) So for example, if I'm late, I should feel some shame.
(16:00) And again, let's talk about the constructive version of this.
(16:04) If you want to change it, you have to have some standard for your own behavior.
(16:13) Like think of someone who has no standards.
(16:15) I'm thinking of someone from my past.
(16:17) I'll keep it anonymous.
(16:18) This dude is just awful.
(16:21) He just sucks.
(16:22) He's like mean.
(16:24) He has an opinion about everything.
(16:27) He doesn't have any merit.
(16:29) There's no earned, you know, he thinks the world of himself, even though he's completely let everything go.
(16:34) He's not a responsible, conscientious adult who like cares for the world and for others.
(16:38) He's not a steward of his own, of his own life.
(16:42) And he's just thinks he's just all ego.
(16:44) He's just a giant walking ego.
(16:47) And I feel like ego gets destroyed by shame.
(16:51) And I think that that's, or it protects you from shame.
(16:54) Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:55) That's the problem.

Alan Lazaros

(16:56) Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:56) That's the problem.
(16:57) The people who have no shame, I don't think they let it in.
(17:01) They just are so disconnected from it because the ego is protecting them where it's like, I'm the fucking man.
(17:05) Of course I'm the man.
(17:06) Like I know I would do that again.

Alan Lazaros

(17:08) I don't have regrets.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:09) I would do it exactly the same way.
(17:11) It's like, okay, well that's, I don't think that's necessary.
(17:13) That's probably not constructive.
(17:14) I think that's people lying to themselves.
(17:17) I don't know because I don't know what they think before they go to bed, but.
(17:21) To be continued.
(17:22) Yeah.
(17:23) Where are we going to do a three part?
(17:24) I don't know if we've ever done part three.
(17:26) I'm 100% game.
(17:27) I also have a very cool idea for an episode we're going to do.
(17:31) I don't know how it's going to go yet, but I want to talk to Alan about based on coaching 7,000 and I don't know, 22 sessions as of today.
(17:38) How dare you?
(17:39) 7,094.
(17:40) 94.
(17:40) I was off.
(17:41) Yeah.
(17:42) Are people more afraid?
(17:44) What's harder for people being themselves or I don't know the exact like phrasing of it, pretending to be somebody else or actually being themselves?
(17:54) Which one's harder?

Alan Lazaros

(17:55) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:55) I want to do an episode on that because.
(17:57) That's good.

Alan Lazaros

(17:58) Didn't we on the first time you told me behind the scenes?

Kevin Palmieri

(17:59) Obviously not because I couldn't even, I didn't even say it correctly because I didn't even know what I was trying to say.

Alan Lazaros

(18:03) I was listening because we have no time.
(18:04) No, we don't have time.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:06) All right.
(18:06) I'm going to have to listen back to this transcript to make sure I remember the episode.
(18:08) Okay.
(18:08) If you're looking for a coach who can help you with stuff like this and help you from getting stuck in a cycle of shame, running away from your dreams and then regretting it, Alan's the guy.
(18:18) If you're looking for a group of people who are always focused on getting to the next level, Next Level Nation private Facebook group below.
(18:24) As always, we love you.
(18:25) We appreciate you.
(18:25) Grateful for each and every one of you.
(18:26) If you are as committed as you say you are to getting to the next level, make sure you tune in tomorrow because we will be here every single day to help you get there.
(18:32) Keep leveling up to reach your full potential.
(18:34) Next Level Nation.
(18:36) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University.
(18:40) We love connecting with the Next Level family.

Alan Lazaros

(18:43) We mean it when we say family.
(18:45) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly.
(18:48) Everything you need to get ahold of us is in the show notes.
(18:52) Thank you again and we will talk to you tomorrow.