How Do You Know You’re Not Playing To Win? (2475)

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What if the thing you call discipline is actually fear wearing a work ethic?. In this episode, Kevin and Alan unpack the difference between real ambition and protective ambition. Kevin shares a pattern he has seen in himself when he gets close to a goal, feels the pressure rise, and starts playing defense. Alan challenges that through long-term thinking, identity, discipline, and performance. Together, they break down how short-term wins can create long-term costs in business, fitness, leadership, and personal growth.

With years of coaching, thousands of episodes, and real patterns from their own lives, Kevin and Alan make one thing clear. Winning is not just about effort. It is about what you are optimizing for. Listen in and find out whether your discipline is building your future or just protecting your ego with a calendar.

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Visit our website and socials through the links below. 👇

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Show notes:
(3:01) The pressure of measurable goals
(7:14) Looking reliable versus being reliable
(9:13) Signs you are taking short-term wins at a long-term cost
(14:00) Delivering today while building for the future
(17:30) Refusing short-term wins that create long-term losses
(20:09) Outro

🎙️ Hosted by Kevin Palmieri and Alan Lazaros

Next Level University is a top-ranked daily podcast for dream chasers and self-improvement lovers. With over 2,100 episodes, we help you level up in life, love, health, and wealth one day at a time. Subscribe for real, honest, no-fluff growth every single day.

Transcript

Kevin Palmieri

(0:00) I have a pattern, and you would think when you understand a pattern, when you have recognized a pattern, when you have diagnosed, self-diagnosed, been diagnosed with a pattern, the pattern would kind of stop, and I'm still working through this, and I feel like this is probably a fairly common pattern, so I want to be vulnerable and talk about it.

Alan Lazaros

(0:19) All of us are playing not to lose in something, not necessarily the same way. (0:25) Welcome to Next Level University.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:27) I'm your host, Kevin Palmieri. (0:29) And I'm your co-host, Alan Lazaros. (0:32) At NLU, we believe in a heart-driven, but no-BS approach to holistic self-improvement for dream chasers.

Alan Lazaros

(0:39) Our goal with every episode is to help you level up your life, love, health, and wealth.

Kevin Palmieri

(0:45) We bring you a new episode every single day on topics like confidence, self-belief, self-worth, self-awareness, relationships, boundaries, consistency, habits, and defining your own unique version of success.

Alan Lazaros

(1:01) Self-improvement, in your pocket, every day, from anywhere, completely free. (1:08) Welcome to Next Level University.

Kevin Palmieri

(1:13) Next Level Nation today for episode number 2475. (1:16) How do you know you're not playing to win? (1:19) You've heard us talk about this before.(1:20) There's a big difference between playing to win and not playing to lose. (1:26) Playing not to lose. (1:27) Jesus.(1:28) Playing to win, playing not to lose. (1:32) Those are the two. (1:32) Boom, boom.(1:33) Thank you. (1:34) I messaged Alan today and I said, dude, based on a lot of deep conversations I've been having with Alan and other people, I feel like I just get into this zone where I'm on the trajectory of what I'm supposed to do, and I feel like it's in reach, and instead of going out and playing to win, I play not to lose because I want to make it across the finish line and win that race. (2:08) And I don't...(2:09) It's so hard to know that's what's happening in the moment because you're actually fucking winning in the micro. (2:16) I've never won more than I'm winning right now. (2:18) It's not close.(2:19) I'm crushing it. (2:22) But it's... (2:23) But that's the point, right?(2:24) Like I'm really...

Alan Lazaros

(2:25) How many times has this happened in your life where you get hit in the head with a brick out of nowhere? (2:30) Not three days ago, he's like, I thought I was doing better than I've ever done in my entire life.

Kevin Palmieri

(2:34) Yeah, I thought I was the man.

Alan Lazaros

(2:35) Yeah. (2:36) Is this why you ever like to think you're the man? (2:38) Because this always happens?

Kevin Palmieri

(2:41) That's probably a piece of it. (2:42) Because I also know I'm not. (2:44) So it's like, I want to feel good about myself, yeah.(2:46) And I have a lot of trust and awesome. (2:48) I feel good about my self-worth. (2:49) You're not as good as you think you are ever.(2:52) And you're not as bad as you think you are either. (2:54) It's like, it's always... (2:55) The press is never right.

Alan Lazaros

(3:01) So you said something along the lines of, okay, playing to win. (3:07) We have a goal. (3:09) 41% year over year.(3:11) So Kevin and I sat down at the beginning of 2026. (3:15) Talked about 41%. (3:16) Okay, how do we do that?(3:17) And you're on target. (3:20) You're on target.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:20) Believe so, yeah.

Alan Lazaros

(3:22) Yeah. (3:22) I do believe I am too, actually, which is good. (3:25) But I do believe I am too.(3:28) That probably sounds like he doesn't even know. (3:30) Yes, I'm on target. (3:31) I'm actually like over target.(3:33) I sound like so stupid sometimes, you know? (3:36) Now that I have the thing where I'm thinking about what other people are thinking, it's like, Mr. Numbers doesn't know if he's on target.

Kevin Palmieri

(3:41) I do believe I am actually.

Alan Lazaros

(3:43) I do believe I'm within hail Mary distance of my goals. (3:48) It's like, dude, you know the exact number. (3:49) Just say it, you coward.(3:51) Yeah, no, I'm on target. (3:52) I'm actually over target. (3:53) Okay.(3:54) What was my point of that? (3:56) Yeah, that's a micro. (3:57) That's one year.(3:58) My goal is not to do that one year.

Kevin Palmieri

(4:00) But how do you, dude, brother, how do you optimize for the micro and them? (4:07) How do you get the micro goal? (4:08) Yeah.(4:09) And the macro goal. (4:10) Yeah, simultaneously. (4:11) And then which one are you willing to give up?(4:14) Micro.

Alan Lazaros

(4:15) Always.

Kevin Palmieri

(4:16) That micro leads to the macro. (4:18) Motherfucker. (4:18) All right.

Alan Lazaros

(4:23) It's fun though, right? (4:24) All right, real quick, real quick. (4:25) You're doing a good time.(4:27) Yeah, man. (4:27) Dude. (4:28) All right.(4:29) If you and I, same human, same brain, same capabilities, same genetics, okay? (4:35) Two human beings. (4:36) This is Alan's lab.(4:38) Fake humans. (4:39) All right. (4:39) One of them, you give a 20 year timeline and you have them prioritize the macro.(4:46) The other one, you give a 20 year timeline and you have them prioritize the micro. (4:53) Who wins? (4:54) In 20 years?(4:56) Yes. (4:57) Macro. (4:58) Who wins for the first five?(5:00) Micro. (5:01) Who gives a shit about the second one, dude?

Kevin Palmieri

(5:04) Like, brother, you see? (5:07) No, I do. (5:08) But you, when we have specific goals we need to hit.

Alan Lazaros

(5:12) Yeah. (5:13) Yeah, yeah, yeah. (5:14) So every time I tell you something, I have to put on that little display and you're like, hey.(5:18) We have a fucking dashboard, okay?

Kevin Palmieri

(5:20) Green, yellow, red, okay? (5:23) This is what it's like behind the scenes at NLU. (5:25) I'm going to take you behind the scenes.(5:27) I'm a different person now. (5:28) Something's happened to me, okay? (5:30) Green, yellow.(5:30) I know it's something. (5:31) Something's happened to you. (5:32) Something's happened.(5:33) Green, yellow, red, okay? (5:35) If we hit 41% year over year, that's green. (5:40) If we hit, oh, I don't know what the number is.(5:42) Maybe 25%. (5:43) 26%. (5:43) 26% year over year.(5:45) That's yellow, okay? (5:47) Complete failures. (5:49) If we do red, which is probably 11%.(5:52) 19%. (5:53) 19%. (5:54) We are the biggest losers you've met in your entire life and we will consider ourselves.

Alan Lazaros

(5:59) It literally says absolute failure. (6:00) There you go. (6:01) Yeah, which is still actually really successful.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:03) How am I not supposed to play not to lose? (6:08) When in my mind, the way to get there is to play not to lose the whole time. (6:12) It's not though.(6:13) I know, but I...

Alan Lazaros

(6:15) How do you also, in fairness, have to play not to lose because I'm not? (6:19) You have to balance me out. (6:21) I understand that.(6:22) That's the yin and the yang. (6:24) You're almost forced into that because I'm not doing it. (6:28) Kevin and I did an episode.(6:29) I'm going to keep talking about it. (6:30) We never aired it because we basically just fought the whole time. (6:34) He was like, you aren't proactive.(6:36) It's not what you said. (6:37) Okay, you didn't say that. (6:38) Can you clarify what you said?(6:39) Just give me the play-by-play of that.

Kevin Palmieri

(6:41) In the beginning, we were talking about something, proactivity, and he's like, yeah, that was like a strength for us. (6:47) And I was like, brother. (6:49) Brother.(6:50) No, no, no way. (6:52) And Alan was like, well, I'm always thinking proactively. (6:55) And I was like, that's fair.(6:57) Looking proactive was never a strength. (6:59) And it fucking still isn't. (7:02) It still isn't.(7:03) Looking proactive.

Alan Lazaros

(7:04) Definitely not. (7:05) But that's the different mentality. (7:09) I'm talking about real life, not perception, which is an L.(7:14) This all comes down to pros and cons. (7:17) I'm macro over micro. (7:18) You're micro over macro.(7:19) You're perception and status over, and then it sounds bad when I say status. (7:23) You're perception over, like Kev wants to look reliable, not just be reliable. (7:29) I just want to be reliable.(7:30) I don't need to look reliable, which is a huge problem because most people don't think I'm reliable. (7:35) And both sides are, right? (7:36) Yeah, exactly.(7:36) And of course, if you prioritize looking reliable, you're going to be better at that. (7:41) And if I prioritize being reliable, I'm going to be better at that. (7:45) You do look more reliable than me.(7:47) But do you get? (7:49) Yeah, but I think I am kind of. (7:51) No, not a chance.(7:52) Hey, not a chance.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:54) In certain things.

Alan Lazaros

(7:56) Like what? (7:57) A client messages me. (7:58) We have to kid in this episode.

Kevin Palmieri

(7:59) No, no, no. (7:59) A client messages me, I get back in 10 minutes.

Alan Lazaros

(8:04) But I'm more reliable long term. (8:07) Because I'm getting better to make sure my clients keep getting better.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:10) That's. (8:10) Reliable in terms of delivering though.

Alan Lazaros

(8:12) Yes, I will. (8:13) All my clients will be successful.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:15) I don't know.

Alan Lazaros

(8:15) More and more and longer and longer. (8:17) Yeah, you know where it's at. (8:18) Okay, but that's.(8:19) And again, that's why we didn't air the episode because it wasn't that I'm bad or Kevin's bad. (8:23) It's like.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:23) It wasn't constructive.

Alan Lazaros

(8:24) No value. (8:25) Yeah, it wasn't constructive for you. (8:26) Because we didn't understand what the hell we were talking about.(8:29) And I was just offended basically. (8:31) Like, dude, I think at one point in the episode, I was like, dude. (8:35) Seconds, minutes, hours.(8:36) That's when you know it's going off the rails. (8:38) It's like every second minute, hour, day, week, month, quarter, year, and decade was planned out. (8:42) How dare you think I'm not proactive?(8:44) And you're like, brother, you didn't even know about the next of the Hope Foundation event. (8:48) You know, six days out. (8:49) And it's like, no, no, no.(8:50) I knew of it.

Kevin Palmieri

(8:52) But I was, you know, see, it's. (8:55) All right, we're not going to go down that again. (8:57) It's funny to talk about.(8:58) And it is fun. (8:59) But that's more like an Alan and I fun thing. (9:01) How do you.(9:02) There's lessons in it. (9:03) Well, yeah, but I don't want to go. (9:04) If we go too far down it, we're going to cross a threshold.(9:07) And you'd be like, hey, I can't this fucking episode. (9:08) No, no, I won't do that. (9:09) How do you know?(9:13) What are the indications that I am playing not to lose? (9:19) You think I figure this out right now? (9:21) I think it's.

Alan Lazaros

(9:24) I have one. (9:26) Hold on, hold on. (9:28) Give me just a second.(9:29) I know we don't have a lot of time. (9:30) I got this. (9:32) Why?(9:32) Uh, you, you are taking long-term hits for short-term wins. (9:38) That's OK. (9:39) What is it?(9:40) Let me give you an example of that. (9:43) Kev audio of me today is like. (9:46) Brother, when you say we have a goal of 41% growth, I'm not going to look back on the year when we didn't hit it and go.(9:52) It's not. (9:53) It's because I didn't meditate enough. (9:54) And I laughed because that's so true.(9:56) And as a personal development podcast, like we're success in personal development. (10:02) If you want to be externally successful in the short term, it doesn't matter if you meditate that much. (10:08) If you want to be the type of person who is centered amongst chaos over the long 20 year hike, you need to learn to meditate and be self-regulated.(10:19) So at all times, you don't want to know the long game personal growth. (10:24) If you want to win the long game, you have to do personal growth first. (10:28) If you want to win the short game, personal growth doesn't matter even a little bit.(10:32) Like none zilch. (10:34) Like your clients don't give a shit if you meditated today and they shouldn't. (10:38) So it's important for us to have this conversation because I think there are some people who all they do is meditate and they don't work.(10:45) I've had clients. (10:47) I have one client I'm thinking of who cannot be successful. (10:49) This is a past client, not anymore.(10:51) But like I used to coach him and it's like, dude, you can't like roll around on the ground in fitness and like meditate and then like be broke the rest of your life. (10:59) Like you have to go do render great service. (11:02) You'll run circles around him in success, but he'll be very centered or whatever.(11:06) I, you need both and you have to prioritize growth over everything, but you have to do growth first.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:12) And then this was my thing today was like, Alan and I recorded till 1030. (11:17) I went to bed at midnight. (11:18) I got up at six.(11:20) Should I have slept till I literally dude, we talk about trampoline all the time. (11:25) It's like an idea that just cannot land. (11:27) It just bounces off.(11:30) No, I can't sleep till eight. (11:32) The fuck do you think this is? (11:34) Okay, hold on.(11:35) No. (11:35) Why not? (11:37) Don't know how I can't do it.

Alan Lazaros

(11:41) These are, these are fun for me. (11:43) People don't know how it's, it's, it's not. (11:46) I'm the man I'm disciplined.(11:48) It's I don't know how it's, I don't think I should.

Kevin Palmieri

(11:53) Okay. (11:53) I know that's best for 15 version Kev, but like. (11:56) Yeah.(11:58) 15 year from today version. (11:59) Kev is going to be broke as shit. (12:00) If every time he's tired, he sleeps, he sleeps in.(12:03) Well, it's not all or nothing.

Alan Lazaros

(12:07) I know, but where do you draw the line? (12:09) You know, I have a, I know you're listening. (12:11) This other client, I have a couple of clients that are very literal.(12:14) I am. (12:15) I don't think I realized how literal you were. (12:16) I am incredibly literal brother.(12:18) Most of what I say is like, should not be taken literally when I say I never rest. (12:24) I don't actually mean I never rest. (12:26) I mean, you tell me what I really mean is resting is not the priority.

Kevin Palmieri

(12:31) When you tell me you work for the, like you said, like I work from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed. (12:35) It's like, and then you've been like, yeah, I went into Amelia's office today and we had like a chat. (12:39) I was like, oh, what do you think we chatted about though?(12:44) I'm sure it was growth, but I, yeah, I was like, I literally was like, oh, I didn't know you, I didn't know you did that. (12:50) I seriously, I swear to God. (12:52) You know, I've been told in book club lately.(12:55) I thought you just went in the office and shut the door and you're just in there all day.

Alan Lazaros

(12:58) Most of the time. (12:59) Hey, 90, 95% of the time. (13:01) But that's the thing is you can't take, I don't like to speak in absolutes.(13:05) It's like, but you kind of, okay, here's the truth. (13:09) I spend from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed cognitively, 95, 90% of it, I am focused on building myself, others, and the business. (13:23) I try to get an hour of R and R per evening and very little of my day is not focused on some form of building toward a bigger, better, brighter future.(13:34) That would, but I can't say that every time. (13:36) Can you imagine if I talked like that, this would be the most boring show in the world. (13:39) Instead, it's like I grind or whatever.

Kevin Palmieri

(13:41) Well, the thing is, if you, well, that's the hard thing too, right? (13:43) Is like, if you're on an interview with somebody else, you can say that. (13:46) They say like, Hey, what's your day look like?(13:47) You could say that, but you're not going to say it every time here. (13:51) You know, like friendly reminder. (13:53) When I say I grind, this is actually what I mean, but you can't, you can't say that.(13:57) Yeah, that's true. (13:58) What is the, okay. (14:00) If we have to do a part two on this, we will.(14:01) Cause I know you have a coaching goal. (14:02) What is the, what is the percentage of, um, being not, not being, I don't want to use that word delivering today versus growing for the future. (14:16) What's the optimal percentage?(14:17) Yeah. (14:19) I'm 80, 20. (14:21) If that.

Alan Lazaros

(14:23) Ah, it's 80, 20, I think. (14:24) Nice. (14:26) Yeah, I think it's 80, 20.(14:28) Mine's probably the opposite. (14:29) What's optimal? (14:31) The, the, the, I'm just back to what I said about the two people, the two, like you're going to, if you and I were competing, you would win for the first five years.(14:42) And then I would smoke you later on because I'm playing the long game. (14:47) In the Michael Phelps podcast, uh, he played a very long game. (14:54) And that's why when people said like, you could never, you could never win an Olympic gold medal in your thirties.(14:58) It's like bullshit. (14:59) Of course you can. (15:01) Right.(15:01) And remember when I said I'd be in better shape than you in our forties. (15:06) Okay. (15:06) The only reason, and this is back when I used to work out with you and Matt and you guys were animals, you guys were way stronger than me for sure.(15:13) But I was like, okay, in 20 years, for sure. (15:16) It'll be me. (15:17) But, and I don't care.(15:18) I don't actually care. (15:19) I want you. (15:20) Trust me.(15:21) That made me sad. (15:21) It wasn't like, I wasn't pumped about that. (15:23) Well, it's a good thought experiment.(15:24) Yeah. (15:25) I just know that you guys are playing the short game. (15:27) You're over here.(15:27) You guys are going to blow your shit out. (15:29) You guys are being stupid. (15:31) Like, that's what I really thought.(15:33) Bianca, shout out to you too. (15:34) Like I used to literally, I said to Amelia, do not do what she does. (15:40) Do not be.

Kevin Palmieri

(15:41) And I, you guys were reckless.

Alan Lazaros

(15:43) You guys were reckless. (15:44) You're playing a short game. (15:46) That's okay.(15:46) You do power lifting, whatever the fuck you want to do. (15:48) The truth is you're playing a short game. (15:50) I didn't know it was short.(15:52) And she heard her back and it's doing much better now. (15:54) But like, I had to pull Amelia aside and say, do not let her lead. (15:59) She's ego lifting.(16:00) And she's since admitted that. (16:01) So this is all fine. (16:02) But like, she was- How do you know if you are?(16:03) I don't feel like I'm ego lifting. (16:05) No, not nearly as much as she was. (16:07) I mean, no one needs to squat 320 when you're 5'2 and 140 pounds.(16:12) Like this is, like you shouldn't be doubling my squat when I'm 6'2, 200, you know? (16:19) And again, it wasn't double my squat, but you can just tell. (16:23) I can tell when someone's playing a short game, that's it.(16:25) And you are, you are just wired that way. (16:28) And this is the best metaphor is you, you won the show and I lost. (16:31) But I won the second one.(16:33) Would you ever win two in a row? (16:38) Then we'll go. (16:39) My priority was becoming, having the best long-term physique humanly possible.(16:44) Your priority was winning the show. (16:46) Would you ever win? (16:47) Who do you think would win two in a row first?(16:50) And again, that's still fucking short-term. (16:52) Probably you. (16:53) Yeah, probably you.

Kevin Palmieri

(16:53) Still short-term.

Alan Lazaros

(16:54) Yeah. (16:55) But I would be in better shape at 60, you know?

Kevin Palmieri

(16:59) It's funny to say it that way, but like- That's the hard thing is like, dude, you're talking- I don't train for a show. (17:03) I train for life. (17:04) We were talking about Bumstead, who won whatever six back-to-back.(17:09) That's all that matters. (17:10) It's a dude who's very short.

Alan Lazaros

(17:11) No, no, it is all that matters is perception.

Kevin Palmieri

(17:13) For that, for that.

Alan Lazaros

(17:13) And he now has supplements that I'll never have. (17:16) He'll be more successful in that arena than I ever will be. (17:19) But I'll be playing the long game, baby.(17:21) Well, I know, but that's how you become the greatest at that thing. (17:24) How detrimental is what he did, in your opinion? (17:26) Oh, God.(17:27) Long-term. (17:28) Yeah, he'll never be the same. (17:29) He'll never be the same.(17:30) I will. (17:31) I was never willing to take the short-term W for the long-term L. (17:39) I don't want to just be in shape in my 20s.(17:42) I want to be fully capable. (17:45) I want to be able to run a 5k on a whim when I'm 75. (17:48) I'm not joking.(17:49) That's what I'm playing for right now. (17:51) Now, I'm also weird with that. (17:53) But I also think that people would benefit from thinking more long-term.(17:56) For sure. (17:56) I mean, you know as well as I do, 90% of people's... (18:00) I'm going to say this and we'll go.(18:02) 80% of the pain and suffering that people endure is short-sightedness.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:08) The fact that you can literally split a fucking Chipotle burrito up into like five payments is a suggestion that, yes, you're not thinking about...

Alan Lazaros

(18:18) I can't believe you can do that. (18:18) You can do that.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:19) I'm pretty sure you can do that with almost anything though. (18:23) That's fucking wild.

Alan Lazaros

(18:24) That's scary. (18:27) That's not good. (18:28) We should do an episode on the implications of that.(18:34) Because back in the day, you couldn't even go past zero. (18:37) Credit cards are invented. (18:39) To drown you.

Kevin Palmieri

(18:41) Taryn needs a new bed. (18:42) Her bed is like... (18:43) Her bed, we got...(18:44) It's just not great. (18:45) And we went to Sleep Number and we went to another place. (18:47) And I was looking.(18:48) And dude, it's good for me to be on this end. (18:50) Because this... (18:50) I would have gotten fucking rigged over the coals before.(18:54) For sure. (18:55) It was like... (18:56) This is the price of the bed.(18:58) And then it was like, well, if you finance with them... (19:00) I have really good credit now, which is great. (19:02) Awesome.(19:03) Shout out. (19:03) Awesome. (19:04) I'm the man.(19:04) Yeah. (19:06) They break it into... (19:08) It's just 30 bucks a week.(19:09) 36 bucks a month times...

Alan Lazaros

(19:12) 74 years.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:14) $56 a month times 36. (19:16) Yeah. (19:17) Three years.(19:17) Which ends up being way fucking more than the $1,500 that the mattress is. (19:22) And I was like... (19:22) What did it end up being?(19:23) $25? (19:24) $35? (19:25) No, probably like $22 or $23.(19:27) Yeah. (19:27) I think $700 more. (19:29) And I was like, well, I just...(19:30) I'll have a 0% credit card. (19:31) We'll just put it on that and we'll pay it off over the course of a year. (19:33) Like bada bing, bada boom.(19:34) But dude, that is like... (19:37) Everything is designed to make you play the short game at a long-term detrimental loss. (19:42) Which is why you can't do it.

Alan Lazaros

(19:43) Which is why it's so important for us to do a part two on this.

Kevin Palmieri

(19:47) All right. (19:47) We're going to do a part two on this. (19:48) Oh man.(19:50) Because yeah, I got a client. (19:51) I feel called out. (19:52) All right.(19:53) Alan's coaching. (19:54) If you want to figure out how to play to win, not play not to lose. (19:57) I can't say that to save my life.(19:59) I don't know why. (19:59) Next level fitness accountability group. (20:01) Get jacked with us.(20:02) We've been talking a lot about fitness. (20:03) That's one of the things Alan and I are most passionate about, obviously. (20:06) So we'd love to have you if you are interested.(20:08) 10 pound in 10 week challenge starts on July 1st. (20:09) As always, we love you. (20:10) Appreciate you.(20:11) Grateful for each and every one of you. (20:12) If you are as committed as you say you are to getting to the next level, make sure you tune in tomorrow. (20:16) Because we'll be here every single day to help you get there.

Alan Lazaros

(20:18) Keep leveling up to reach your full potential.

Kevin Palmieri

(20:21) Thanks for joining us for another episode of Next Level University. (20:25) We love connecting with the Next Level family.

Alan Lazaros

(20:28) We mean it when we say family. (20:30) If you ever need anything, please reach out to us directly. (20:33) Everything you need to get a hold of us is in the show notes.(20:36) Thank you again and we will talk to you tomorrow.