#328 | Jessie's Vaginal Breech Birth: The Way it Was Meant To Be

At 28 weeks, Jessie found out her baby was breech—but instead of panicking, she trusted her gut. She felt strongly that her baby was meant to be born this way. After initially planning a home birth, Jessie began exploring other options and considered traveling to Pennsylvania for a hospital birth with experienced breech providers.

But when labor started at 39 weeks, everything shifted. Mid-drive to Pennsylvania, Jessie and her husband decided to turn around and head to Yale New Haven Hospital. There, an OB team unexpectedly supported her birth plan, and her baby was born breech and vaginally—with ease.

In this episode, Jessie shares her story of intuition, flexibility, and trust in her body and baby. It’s an inspiring reminder that sometimes birth doesn’t go according to plan—and that’s exactly what makes it beautiful.

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Transcript

How your baby comes into the world. It matters. And if it matters to you as the mother, then, then it just matters. Once I went into labor. I mean, it was like it was a choicelessness. It was just, it was what was happening, that confident
 ability to make decisions, that is where we know we are trusting our intuition, right? When you're constantly back and forth, back and forth, back over, can't decide what to do, that's the anxiety. That's the fear, yes, when we actually don't know what we're doing, like you found out your baby was breached at 28 weeks, and you just felt like, I'm having a breach baby and I'm going to have a vaginal breach baby, and it was all so smooth and easy and kind of just felt right and natural to you. That's when you really know that your intuition is guiding you. I
 mean, it was great. It was the birth of my dreams in a weird, unplanned way.

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi, my name is Jessie. I am a dancer by first profession, and now I farm for a living. So I have you know, for me, I have some experience, really in my body, which affected my birth, I think in the in the long run, I have two kiddos. My stepson is nine and my daughter is 18 or 19 months. So one of the most important parts of my story is that I had a totally normal pregnancy, except for bleeding around 20 weeks, it resolved, but it brought me very close in contact with sort of like that, birth death dance. You know, I remember my stepson was with me when the bleeding started, and, you know, he's asking me, is maybe going to be okay? And I told him, I don't know, but this is the bargain we make. You know, I'm I'm allowed to bring life into the universe, and so I need to have acceptance with with death on the other side, if that is what it is. So I did a lot of praying, and we had four really, really hard days where I thought the worst might be happening, and it didn't, it just resolved. And everything was great. And then around 28 weeks, I realized that my baby was breach and probably going to stay breach. I remember, I went to my midwife's appointment and I told her, you know, I said, I just have a feeling that she's going to stay breach. And she she was wonderful, but she really laughed. She laughed at me and said, You have plenty of time, you know, you don't have to worry about it. And maybe I manifested it, you know, maybe not. But I hate to say this, but I feel like I've witnessed so many women manifesting just that, and I don't understand whoever introduced the word breach into your mind at 28 was that the midwife? Because that's how I think it begins, when a doctor or midwife says, at 28 weeks, which is way too early, way the heck too early for any baby to start preparing to come out, for them to say, right now, the baby's breach. But that's okay. I'm I get very touchy about that, because I think women immediately get anxious, or they visualize a breech baby. You declared it, you announced going to stay that way. And it did. And is that a coincidence? It's a pretty it's a pretty good coincidence, if it is one because, but you know, the odds were extremely high that your baby was going to be head down. Yes, wasn't it?

Well, very interesting thought. Yeah, from a clinical perspective, typically around the start of the third trimester, just if a baby is breach, it does not mean they're going to stay breached, but that is when a clinician is going to start to think about the baby's position, like, just want the baby down at 20 weeks, 20 weeks when this is way too soon, at 20 weeks, when you're getting the ultrasounds and people are saying the baby is breach way too soon. But clinically, a lot of babies do start to assume position for a birth between 28 and 32 weeks. Yeah, I just, I'm glad she laughed, is what I'm yeah, yes, she really, you know, was like, you have plenty, plenty of time. So, you know, maybe I did manifest it. I'm the type of person that likes a lot of information, so I think, I think I already had the idea. I mean, I was, like, knee deep in your podcast, so it could have just been that breach was, you know, just like up there in my mind. And I do think in the end, you know, I had to fight really, really, really hard to have her vaginally, and that that informed my motherhood. Like in a way I could not have imagined. I listened so hard, you know, intuition wise, and had to fight back so much and do just only what I want and nothing else of what anyone else wanted. It was very stressful and all that. But then when my daughter came, I mean, I was the most relaxed I've ever been.

Are you the woman that I heard about who had a breach vaginal birth at Yale New Haven Hospital.

That was probably me. That was probably me. I don't think there are any others. 18 months ago, yes, yeah, I know. I'm so excited to be hearing your story. So so, yeah, so I went into labor spontaneously at 39 weeks, and it was a big toss up, because I had been between. I'd been between my midwives. I interviewed a home birth midwife. I unhired the home birth midwife. I said, Okay, I'll go with, you know, the midwives I still have, but I wasn't happy about their breach options. Basically no one would talk about it. You know, everyone was like. I kept saying I had I looked at my notes and it said, Jessica wonders what her birth will look like if she shows up in labor. And you know, Jessica, what prompted you to unhire the home birth midwife? Why did you choose that wasn't the right option?

One was finances. I was going to take out like a personal loan that, you know, is a bunch of money that, in theory, we'd get reimbursed from insurance, but I couldn't be totally sure. One of them was that I felt more uncomfortable at home, actually, than I thought I would. I was trying to manage my kids, my dog, my husband, you know, while even the midwife was there, and I thought, this is not the feeling I want. I want to be relaxed. And then the third one was, hey, if she comes breached, do we have any sort of good plan for that. And the plan there was, maybe there might be another midwife that might be available to come assist so she was not an experienced home birth midwife with breach Correct? Well, at what point in your pregnancy did you interview her? Um, I think I was, I was trying to decide on home birth by 30 weeks. You really anticipated a breach baby, didn't you? You really thought it might happen? Yes, yes, yes. So I Yes. So I, I decided, Okay, never mind. This is actually not going to be for me. And I went back to my midwives. Was a little it was a little awkward, I have to say, it was like a midwife breakup, like they call had to call me back and make sure that they really could do what I wanted. So basically, the answer was, you know, obviously they they want to schedule a C section. That's a normal answer. We that's what they would recommend. But if you don't, and you do show up, you know, we discourage that. And it's sort of whoever's on call that was the answer. Whoever is on call, maybe they have experience, maybe they don't. And at the very last minute, I'm going to say around 36 weeks, I found a hospital in Pennsylvania that trains and births breach. I found a woman from New York that traveled there and talked to me about her experience. I had a friend who was an hour away, so I was like, ready to go to Pennsylvania. We were scheduling a consult. I think I got, I got an ultrasound at 38 weeks for fetal weight had to be, you know, just under a certain estimated amount to give birth there. So I was trying to switch providers at 38 weeks, and I had, you know, just obstacles. The facts wasn't going through. My Records weren't going through. They couldn't do the consultation. And then I went into, I had the ACB at 38 weeks too, to just snap back like a rubber band, okay, uh, some babies need to be breached. Well, she had a double she had a double nuchal cord, okay, so I looked at my notes afterwards and found that. So maybe that was part of it, too. Yeah. So at 39 weeks I went into labor and told my husband, this is really where the birth story starts. I I remember waking up. I woke up around, I don't know what time it was, but I remember waking up and looking at my phone, and my phone was dead, and I thought, okay, like, maybe I should charge my phone. I'm getting, I'm having some cramps. You know that might be important. So I went back to sleep, and I just felt my water break in bed kind of very effortlessly. My guess is around 530 I got dressed, I got my husband up by saying, Hey, are you ready to go to Pennsylvania? And he said, Oh, your your water broke. You know, he knew exactly what was going on. And we started driving to Pennsylvania, and my contractions were probably six, I'm gonna say, Guess, like six to 10 minutes apart, and they're getting a little stronger. We were only in, you guys know this. We were only in Norwalk, and that's about 45 minutes.

You were going to Pennsylvania, but you had never established care with this practice. Or you never really show up and be like, take out each baby. Yes, exactly. I was like, waiting for the consultation call, and so I thought, okay, these people know what to do with. Reach baby. I'm just going to show up in their er, or maybe I'll call them on the way, like, this is what we planned. I plan to travel there at 39 weeks. But obviously we, you know, we were trying to figure it out. What do you do with a kid and the dog and a husband? I said, I'll go. I'll go alone. I'll call you when I'm in labor. It was crazy, you know? But, um, I Yeah, we started driving, and then my husband eventually sort of just put his foot down, and he was like, this is exactly what I didn't want to do. Like, this is exactly what we agreed to do, not to be traveling while you're in labor. Can we turn around now? And I just said, Yes. You know my my sister had told me you might feel differently in the moment about how you plan things. And so I said, Yeah. And he said, Okay, well, like something about a C section, maybe we have to do the safest thing, or whatever. And I was like, you haven't been listening to me for nine months. We're not doing that. Um, he was supportive, but I just there was nothing he could understand about how I felt about that.

Or did he understand the risks of a C section, I'm guessing, and how it's not a foolproof decision. When you say it definitely should be a C section, it definitely shouldn't be, there's a lot of reasons as to what makes certain breach births completely safe and others little riskier. So he probably just also doesn't. He's just not as educated in it. Yes, and this is common between this is common between couples because she's doing the researching and dedicating probably hundreds of hours to her education, and then the couple finds themselves at odds. When they have the exact same goal and intention for the birth and they don't, they're at odds.

Yes, yeah, I am. You know, he did just trust me. In the end, he was, he knew that I did all the research and all that, but he was, you know, just too nervous to drive there in labor, which I understand. I don't want to be in the car anyway. So we turned around, we came home, we told my stepson, you know you're gonna have your sister today. He we actually put him on the bus. And I think as we pulled in the driveway, I got a call. And you know where the call was from? It was from the hospital in Redding, yeah, Pennsylvania, yep. And they were calling to do the consultation, and I said, um, you know, sorry, but I'm in labor, and we kind of didn't know what to do. They gave me a Spitz fire like, here's where you go. This is what you do. But I told them, I turned around, I'm not really sure what to do. And sort of serendipitously, in that moment, the the lead doctor there, he walked into the office and he talked to me on the phone. This man never met me before, and he kind of talked me through it. He told me, as a first time mom, I had like, a 70% chance of giving birth vaginally, and the worst thing to do would be to drive and have a C section four hours away, where you couldn't get home, you know, with your newborn and all that. And then he asked where I was giving birth. And I, when I told him, you know, he said, Oh yeah, go for it. Nice guy. Nice of him to speak with you.

Incredible, incredible man, yeah, yeah. So, so that really gave me, um, that gave me just like, the assurance that I needed. And it was like, unbelievable. My contractions, like, slowed down during that whole time, and then all of a sudden, I got off the phone and I said, I think we need to go right now. And so we did. We we drove in, and my midwife, you know, said, are you eating or drinking? And I said, Yes, right now. I'm eating almonds because I knew it was important. And she said, Okay, stop. We don't know how we're getting this baby out yet. Like, let me talk to some people. So we got there, I think we got to the the hospital around nine. My daughter's born at 1155, so it was quick, very it was very quick. It was, I mean, it was lovely. I think I arrived in transition. I threw up, like, as soon as I got there. And I remember thinking like, Oh, I thought that came later. You know, I thought I didn't know we were there already. And they brought two female OBS, and they did the ultrasound to confirm her position again, they brought two female OBS in who, I think they stayed on for my birth, like I think they were ready, getting ready to go off the clock and thank God they they stayed on. They had some experience in breach. I didn't ask how much I didn't want to know, you know, but they probably stayed on because it was going to be so fascinating and vocational for them to see him breach vaginal.

Wait, did you later find out how much experience they had in breach? I don't know how much they had. I just know that they had some Okay, in the moment, it didn't matter to you. It didn't you were in your zone. You were in your labor zone, and you were in trust in your body, and you just knew, like, I'm not deviating from this path. Like, yeah, he's coming. I feel it. Things are happening. I'm you just have that feeling sometimes, like I just got to keep going with what I'm doing. And it doesn't really matter what's around me.

Nobody had to be there. It really felt like, you know, things were progressing. I was hitting the checklist of my checklist. She was Frank reach. So when I heard that, I was like, great, we're good to go. Perfect. And everything was just like moving along. I didn't want any cervical checks in my plan, but I did get one. I think I was five centimeters. And that also gave me, like, I was like, great. Halfway there, perfect. Halfway there, good. And I remember they gave me, like, that serious C section. Talk like they got down on their knee. They look me in the eye. They told me all the not C section, the risks of vaginal birth, and they told me all those serious things. I was surprised by that. And I, you know, I'm in labor between contractions, and I'm like, yeah, yeah. None of it surprised me, because I was ready. I had done all the research. I mean, I was researching breech maneuvers, like for myself, like up until the moment of my birth, like you were, you were going to perform. It was crazy. No, I was, like, telling my husband, like, I'm gonna print this out for you. And like, you know, oh, it was crazy. But I really, like, I had watched so many breach videos. I had envisioned it. Wow. I knew what it's gonna look like, what I was. I felt good, you know, I felt good. So they gave me that talk, and I Yeah, yeah, I signed the paper, and then I said, Okay, can you tell me the risks of a C section? Because they just really were going to skip it. Yep, I can't believe that they still skip it, but they do. So they did, and then that was it. And I asked my midwife, you know, how are you feeling? She said, this is out of my expertise, but I'm here for you 100% you know, these are the people that will be delivering your baby. I said, okay, they requested that I give birth in the or and the anesthesiologist, I don't know, he introduced himself at some point, but I also was like, I'm not doing that. So, you know, I was a little annoyed. That was the only one that I was a little annoyed about that person in the room. Other than that was fine. I finally got moved to a delivery room. I guess it was before they checked me. I was seven, I think seven before I even went into the delivery room and I had some back labor. I think my husband was doing the hip presses. I remember, I don't think I mean that really got me through. So what did it feel like to birth a breech baby, and what position was she in? Was she Frank breach? And what she was Frank breach? It was great. I mean, it was great. It was great. I don't know anything different, but so what did you say she

was 612, okay, pretty. Small baby. Yeah, small. The the birth itself was, was really great. I think a nine centimeters someone, someone said, like, something about pushing. And I thought, oh, yeah, I need to do that now that that word feels right. I didn't really know that that was the feeling I was feeling. So they wheeled me to the or on all fours, my little stretcher, right then I had to climb to the table. I was like, why were you not able to walk to the or why did you have to go on a stretcher?

I'm not sure. I think because I was on my hands and my knees and I couldn't get out of my hands. You don't want to move. I was stuck, you know, no, no one said anything. It was great. It was so great. Because I feel like everyone left me alone. No one did anything or said anything. I feel like they didn't know what to do with this woman. Like, that's exactly why they left you alone. Because sometimes they're so confused about what to do when somebody is so on their point, yeah, but it was so it was great. You know, no one did anything or said anything. One time she told me I could rest sort of over the edge of the hospital bed because I was feeling so tired. I'm like, Well, you kind of said that earlier, but other than that, like, we're good, that was it. So Jessie just understand. So you were in the regular room until nine centimeters, and then they were dragging you off into the or and then that's when you met that anesthesiologist who kind of was in your way and you didn't really care for it. That was all happening after you were nine centimeters. I met the anesthesiologist in the triage room. Oh, and but then, when you were almost at 10, that's when they were stopping, like they were getting into the heart. Yeah, it was hilarious. You know, someone was pulling a sheet over me because I was on the all fours, pulling a sheet over my back. And that was more annoying than just, I'm like, I don't care. You were naked, on your hands and knees. So it was, you know, proper thing to do. They weren't really you down the hall like, I'm a dancer. It's not we get dressed in the locker room all the time. I had no you know, I don't have any shine. And when you're in birth, you shyness goes out the door anyway. Even if you didn't have that background, you probably wouldn't right to begin with, that you're just, when you're in that place and birth, everything goes out the window. Did you end up having to use any of your breech maneuvers when the previous one? Or Did anybody, or was it totally hands off? It wasn't exactly hands off. I looked at the notes later. She delivered until her scapula. And then they did the they do like a half rotation, they sweep the arm. They do another half rotation, they sweep the arm. And then they did, like, the head flexion. They like, kind of insert their hand and pop her up. They did do that, but I delivered her alone until, you know, until her scapula, both her, her legs popped out. I remember feeling that I felt the relaxation I had been on my side, pushing, and then they moved me to my back, I guess. When they felt like it was time. It was about 20 minutes pushing.

And did you do? You recall them feeling very calm, cool, collected, relaxed, or did it seem kind of like they were unsure? Did it seem very normal to them?

I would say it was quiet. It was quiet in the room. My midwife was right there, and I was sort of laser focused, just me and her. And the end, I remember looking for my husband. I asked for some apple juice, and I asked for water, and they gave me apple juice. They were very nice. I would say it was relaxed, it was quiet, and that was it. So I will say that breach, I could feel all of her parts, foot, foot, hand, hand, arm, whatever that was. And then all of a sudden, she was on me, and I was, you know, shocked for a second. They had all this stuff in her, in the way, like the papers and the belly bands and this stuff I remember just like that, looking trying to get to her face. Felt like it took hours, but I have a video of it seconds, and that was it. And then I never even talked to the doctors or anything. The doctors were gone. They left you with the midwife, and midwife just finished up everything. Yeah, yeah, nice. Yeah, perfect. Kind of Perfect, yeah. So it was great. I mean, it was great. It was the birth of my dreams in a weird, unplanned way.

You said you had a bunch of thoughts about your own birth that you wanted to also share with us and talk about, yeah, I think you know what, something has been just so important to me after going through this experience, is knowing that other people are in the same position and not being able to help. And part of that, I'm sure, the majority of that, the bulk of that is information and and getting this information, but I think the other part of it is being able to to go against the grain. You know, when everyone is saying one thing, I mean, I I have it written down in my journals that I said something that I kept with me is hear everyone and listen to yourself. I mean, it really stuck with me. I just want mothers to feel that they know what what is best, and that they don't have something taken from them. You know, I found that something was gonna be taken from me in that, in having a C section,
did you feel inherently like at your core? Did you feel that a vaginal birth for your baby would be the safer way for her to come into the world? Because I think what these moms have to do is not know that they can and should have a vaginal birth. I think they really have to learn how to ask themselves or ask their babies, what is the best and safest way for you to come into the world? What is it you need from me as your mother? What environment do you need, and what providers do you need, and what method do you need for this to happen? And I do think if more women could tap into that, a larger percentage would certainly find themselves having the intuition that a breech birth, a vaginal reach birth is the right way, but it's not the case for every woman. So what do you make of that? Like, did, yeah, your instinct guide you well in this or were you just kind of hell bent on a vaginal birth because of your education and that, like, intellectual mind doing the work?

I guess? No. Now that we're talking about it, I think more what I'm saying is that how your baby comes into the world it matters. And if it matters to you as the mother, then, then it just matters. It doesn't matter if they're breached or something else is going on, you know, with your pregnancy or your birth, you know. But how they come into the world really is important, and no one should be able to tell you otherwise. I don't know. I don't know if it was my intuition. I mean, she was okay, right? She was fine. She was perfect. She had apgars of nine and nine, she was great. I think that I wrestled with the idea of she could not be okay long before that, at 20 weeks, when I had bleeding, it was what happens and how, how do I want? What could I live with, right? I really do believe that things happen the way that they are supposed to happen. So in in saying I can give birth, you know, okay, but also I could not give birth, or something could happen to me that, that idea that, you know, the mirror images of birth and death were very, very real for me, in my mind, and I just still thought, you know, I don't want to have a C section and have you die. That would be in my mind, that would be crazy. I want, you know, I wanted to bring my baby into this world in this way, and not against all. If something was really, really going wrong, then okay. But if nothing was going wrong and everything was going right, and this is the way that it's supposed to be, then I really was trusting that. Mm. Yeah. So it sounds to me like the you just had a lot of faith and confidence in the safety and normalcy of breech birth, and in your mind, C section was a higher risk.

It was, yeah, I think it was the intuition of it, plus, plus the the research on it, that that all led me there. But I think what I'm saying is that, you know, it's applicable to all sorts of different things that could go on in your pregnancy. Doesn't have to be breach.

Yeah, sometimes when I I've been in this situation with so many women who were so deeply worried throughout pregnancies, some of them with very good reason to be worried, some really concerning things that might have come up on ultrasounds or just and obviously things like breach babies. And we can really torture ourselves trying to consider pros and cons or figuring out how to make a decision. And it this sounds so hard, probably to hear. But I really believe that on some level, we have to just get really quiet and ask ourselves, is this baby meant to be here? If this child soul is meant to be here, there's no stopping it. This child already exists, is already alive and is on the way and it's it. You almost have to tap into this complete conviction of feeling this child is meant to be here, and then we release ourselves from the path the method, because we have such a deep belief that this child is arriving. And it's hard because we are so emotionally attached, and there's nothing on earth more important that we get very anxious and we're just we feel like we can still control it, and that we can make a right or wrong decision, and that it's our decision that puts the baby's life on the line. But if we just a little bit farther back and trust that, I don't know, almost that, like it's in the cards already. Like, can I trust? This is in the cards, and this is happening, yeah? And it really helps. It's just the same, like you were saying, Yeah, we can apply to all of life. I think that's deep faith and trust can be applied. But this is where it's tested the most. It's the life of your child.

Sure, yeah, when you when you feel so safe and confident in your decisions like you did. You really didn't have those doubts. You weren't really you did make the change to go from Pennsylvania back to stay in Connecticut and have your birth there, but that was also, you know, a pretty easy decision for you, when you just have those confident that confident ability to make decisions, that is where we know we are trusting our intuition, right? When you're constantly back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, can't decide what to do. That's the anxiety. That's the fear, yes, when we actually don't know what we're doing, and then we look to our intellect and logic and research to help us make a decision. But when the decision is just flowing, like you found out your baby was breached at 28 weeks, and you just felt like, I'm having a breach baby and I'm going to have a vaginal breach baby, and it was all so smooth and easy and kind of just felt right and natural to you. That's when you really know that your intuition is getting you.

Yeah, I remember thinking, you know it because, of course, it was that's what I felt, you know. But no one else really feels that way, so doesn't matter what they feel, right? So it kind of just had to all drop down, and I had to get really relaxed about it, you know, before I could come to that point. But once I went into labor, I mean, it was like it was a choicelessness. It was just, it was what was happening.

It kind of, it's almost, it almost demonstrates the point we're talking about, where it's already in the cards that she was going to safely, because you were on your way to this really cool place in reading Pennsylvania, where you were going to get all this great support, and you almost went through all these hoops, and had you birthed your baby there, you would have said, Oh, thank God we did that. We went through all these hoops and we had all the support we needed. But look at what you did. Your husband said, I'm not feeling this. I thought we weren't going to do it this way with so much effort and resistance. You immediately consented to that. You immediately acquiesced. And look at that it ended up going smoothly anyway, almost as if that was what was the thing. Yeah, no matter where you showed up, I do feel also, you know, my husband has a very strong intuition, and he's not always going to voice it, but at that moment, you know, you trust you did, and it was yes, yeah, I needed you know there was something in that that's that was right. It was right.

Are you so, I guess my final question for you, are you delighted that this is exactly how your birth ended up going? Or do you wish it was a more traditional, kind of easy, textbook, kind of birth. Love that it was this, I love it. What is it that you love about it? Yeah, I love it. Um, it was, I don't know. It was just it was, it was blissful. It was wonderful. It brought me in contact with my strength. You know, I met a part of myself that. But I knew it was there, but it was it never had the opportunity to really come to the forefront. And I felt like I knew, I knew, like, Okay, this is your time to shine. Like, go ahead. I also remember thinking, you know, I was only really certain that I was gonna have one child. So in my mind, too, the stakes were higher. Like, this is the only one have this one chance. There's no guarantee that I might have another. And yeah, I'm it's it was amazing. I would do it that way over again.

Thank you for joining us at the Down To Birth Show. You can reach us @downtobirthshow on Instagram or email us at Contact@DownToBirthShow.com. All of Cynthia’s classes and Trisha’s breastfeeding services are offered live online, serving women and couples everywhere. Please remember this information is made available to you for educational and informational purposes only. It is in no way a substitute for medical advice. For our full disclaimer visit downtobirthshow.com/disclaimer. Thanks for tuning in, and as always, hear everyone and listen to yourself.

It's kind of cool that, um, you never had that feeling like you had to run an escape either. That's really interesting. No, I remember I asked my midwife. I asked her, you know, is it okay that I'm relaxing? It's like, between pushes at the end, and I just, like, got that dreamy thing happening. And I said, it's okay that I'm relaxing so much. She said, Yeah, just do whatever you feel. Wow. So it was, it was something.