Truth Telling and Good Hiring in ABA: A Couple of Drinks with Holli Beth Clauser (Part I)

ABA on Tap is proud to present Holli Beth Clauser (Part 1 of 2):

Grab a comfortable seat and a tasty libation. There is a lot of introspection to be had in this pour.

Your turnover number might look like a business problem, but it’s really a human systems problem. We sit down with Holly Beth Clauser to unpack why ABA organizations keep bleeding great RBTs, why families lose trust when staffing churn never stops, and what changes actually improve recruitment, onboarding, and retention without burning people out.

We start with Holli’s origin story and how her frontline experience shaped the way she thinks about the workforce. From there, we get practical about the gaps between clinical work, scheduling, HR, and executives. We talk about SOPs and metrics as a shared language, but we keep coming back to the part most dashboards miss: the context behind the number. Cancellations, inconsistent hours, and “culture” issues rarely come from one person being lazy. They’re usually signals that the environment isn’t reinforcing the right behaviors.

Then we go straight at the hiring process. Overselling roles, overpromising hours, and avoiding hard conversations about aggression, travel, cancellations, and documentation creates the exact churn everyone complains about later. Holly shares how she interviews for boundaries and triggers, why function should guide HR responses, and why practical de-escalation and self-regulation training often matters more in the first 60 days than jargon-heavy onboarding.

If you care about treatment continuity, staff wellbeing, and sustainable ABA services, hit play, share this with a leader in your orbit, and subscribe so you don’t miss Part 2. After you listen, what’s one change you’d make to improve RBT retention at your organization? Holli Beth Clauser will guide you in this episode.

Tune In, Drink Up, and ALWAYS ANALYZE RESPONSIBLY.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Workforce Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to ABA on test. I'm Mike Ribio with Dan Lowry. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly. All right, all right. Welcome back to yet another installment of ABA on tap. I am your ever grateful co-host, Mike Rubio. As always, alongside Mr. Daniel Lowry. Mr. Dan, how are you, sir?

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Doing good. Happy Sunday, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Happy Sunday. We are so blessed in so many ways, but in these seats here, as professionals in the field of ABA, as sort of new to being business owners and trying to figure it all out. Not only do we get to host this show, but we get to be front row students of some really cool content experts, and I'm super excited about that prospect today because we get to learn. Yeah, we get to learn a whole lot today. And I'm really excited. So we're going to be talking about things like recruitment and retention. And I think some of those pitfalls, challenges in the field of ABA in terms of treatment continuity, because of turnover and variables that are very difficult to manage. But our guest is going to illuminate us, I have no doubt. So today we've got Holly Beth Clauser.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Hey guys, thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Oh, you're good. Perfect. Hey, you can talk as you walk over the stage, right? That's the way it works. Holly, thanks so much for your time. You've got a seemingly beautiful afternoon in your neck of the woods, and you're deciding to give us a couple of hours of that time. So we're very, very appreciative. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I'm living the dream. I'm doing great today. The weather is breezy, so cannot complain.

Holly’s Origin Story In ABA

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Okay. That sounds great. That sounds great. We like to kick it right off with the origin story. People tend to do a lot of interesting things up until the point where they are now. I think you're no exception. And in fact, I think you're going to provide us a lot of really interesting information in that respect. So where does it all start for you and kind of bring us up to the current and we'll go from there?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you both for having me on too and for all the good work you're doing in the field, getting all of this out there so that people can learn right alongside and learn from you as well. So yeah, it's interesting. So it's ironic that I end up coaching people on their career journey because I did not have a coach myself. So my blueprint, there was none. And so my entryway into ABA was really more out of survival than and circumstances. And so originally I had turned down kind of getting into this space or working with individuals who are autistic, starting in about around 1996, actually, is when I was approached a few times on, you know, we think you'd be a good fit, you know, come work with my son, or or different circumstances. And then in 2020, 2005, oh my gosh, I'm dating myself. It's been almost 21 years next February. So at the time, I was a single mom of two kids with special needs, both in their own right, different, different needs that they had. And I put them in what was called an integrated preschool. And that was a preschool that had what would be considered neurotypical, and then also different abilities and disabilities together. And so I had been taking them there. And one of the directors in the program approached me and said, you know, I've been watching you and how you parent, I've been watching how you interact with the other children here. And I think that you'd be a really good fit for this program that we had that we have, which they called a inclusive classroom of verbal behavior, is what it was called back then. And I thought that's pretty interesting. I mean, at that point, I was working in improv. So doing like stage managing and more like creative work, just super laid back work. But was also something that was that was hard for me being a single mom of two children that had needs was the amount of time I needed to take off from various positions. And so I was a little bit concerned about that when he approached me. And, you know, I mentioned that and he said, you know, we understand that, you know, we're working with a sensitive population as well. Why don't you just come in and interview and see how it goes? So I did. I brought with my daughter who had just been turned one. She was had just had surgery, showed up just fully as myself with her in the interview. And they understood that I was bringing her to the interview, which is a great sign. And he started to talk to me about the population and the science of ABA. They also used floor time, teach methods. So there's other things I was exposed to. And it piqued my interest. And I thought, you know what, let's go for it. Let's give it a try and see, see where it goes. And so I entered in the classroom, and I don't know what else to say except that I finally found my people and the world started to make sense, right? So even working with the children, even though, and and I I don't think I mentioned, but I'm autistic as well. But even though they were mostly non-vocal, very aggressive individuals that had diagnoses that were uh Down syndrome, autism, fragile acts, it was you know a mix of different abilities and disabilities. And what I found was I could understand what they were trying to say. And so it was it became a natural strength of mind to pull out language from individuals who are trying to communicate in a different way, and I can kind of be the bridge for them on how to communicate to others where they could understand because I understood what they were trying to say through patterns and things like that. And so, yeah, I mean, my first exposure to ABA, I just I fell in love with it. And I started then going from the school setting, started going into a community center-based in-home setting, traditional ABA. And I was welcomed into a training team eventually and was able to really lend my experience as a parent, as an autistic, and then also somebody who had been doing the work of an RBT without the RBT labels. So around the time, what was it, like 2016 that that that came about?

SPEAKER_04 6:56

Yeah, 2015, I think, somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

2015. Yeah, so somewhere around there. Yeah, don't test my memory too much, guys. Um worries. It's Sunday. Um, so so I started

From Training Burnout To Recruiting

SPEAKER_00 7:10

working with a training team to train other individuals, become RBTs. And I absolutely love it. I still to this day have a passion for training. And what I realized though is that a lot of people were entering into the training without any knowledge of what to expect. And that's what led me to start thinking, well, what if I what if I went into recruiting and got to them a little bit earlier? Could I influence the outcomes and influence also the turnover? Because as a trainer, I started to feel like I was a lot of things, a debt collector, you know, have you finished your modules? You know, I started to feel like I was on this perpetual treadmill. It's exhausting. So I thought, what happens if I go into recruitment? Right? Like, you know, and see if there's something I could do there. And I found out that there's not a lot of feedback and recruitment. There's not a lot of use of the science and recruitment. And a lot of the metrics that recruiting, you know, looks at doesn't really improve outcome equality or outcome of employment. And so I started using the science there to see if I can improve my own hiring metrics. And then I was able to take that outside and start using it in consulting and things like that, and and saw different gaps, if you will, in that space. And so created a summit to try to bring people together to talk about solutions and identify you know what's going wrong in the workforce and have real conversations and real strategies for it. So that's how I ended up where I am today.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah. Very good. You were uh you were sort of an RBT before there were RBTs, and we'll I mean we'll we'll get into that a little bit, I'm sure. Uh I was one of them.

SPEAKER_04 8:53

I was a BI. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

You get to like patient zero, right? Or something. Uh but it I think it's it plays an important role in how then you've helped shape or define that. Just as a quick aside, one of the things that uh we're excited to talk to you about and learn from you more about is we got into our current operation really hoping to champion the RBT because we saw so much turnover and we saw this sort of this the these workhorses just getting whipped all the time and and not a lot of gratification. They're road warriors, they're not getting a whole lot of contact unless the suit as a supervisor you're making that effort. So we've we've made it a point to really champion the RBTs, and I think that the best thing we've come up with so far is the amount of time we spend with them, but there's so much more to still define in terms of how we really champion them, right? So you have worked and collaborated with us quickly to say, please give me a little more structure to the interview if you guys can. Of course we will, but I know already that I'm gonna have a ton of other questions for you. So I'll do my best not to go off script too much. Dan, why don't you get because we're gonna let Mr. Dan, I'm gonna task him with uh being the interview question guy. So, Mr. Dan, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

Yeah, and I appreciate your your stance on recruiting. I've almost as long as I can remember, I've been in the field since 2007, eight, somewhere in the 2006, 2007. 2006, 2007. I was a BI, so pre-RBT RBT, and then pretty quickly got into the training side of things. So I was the trainer for my company for a long period of time and companies that I've worked for. But the recruiting side's always interesting because we would just see so much turnover within the training. So the training was, you know, a week, uh maybe two weeks, and then people would leave. So I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to follow up with on that recruiting piece because it's so expensive to train somebody, even if it's just a couple of days, and then have them leave and not provide any value back to the organization. And it seems like if you're always behind the A-ball there, you're just bleeding so much money, which then has to be recouped elsewhere, which also has more effects downstream. So I've definitely seen that firsthand, and we'll have some interesting discussions about that. But I know so you mentioned you were in the direct care kind of kind of first. That's how you got your feet wet, and that was before you got into ABA cares. So my question's regarding ABA cares, but before I ask that question, do you want to speak to what ABA

What The ABA Cares Conference Solves

SPEAKER_04 11:20

cares is so the audience can know?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, absolutely. So ABA Cares is a conference that is I would say annual, but I did skip a year for health reasons, you know, want to model good behavior. If you're not doing well, it's okay to you know take a step back and take a break. So we're going into our third one, and it's a conference that has one singular focus, which is the workforce. And so this year we have four tracks. We're talking about leadership, we're talking about people operations, we have an executive track, and then we also have a career counseling track, which would be, you know, you know, how do you advocate if you're not getting certain needs met and things like that? But I'm really proud of it because it is so focused and it's something that I my husband likes to joke. I'll just say my husband likes to joke and say that I can't just bring the same appetizer to a party more than once. Like I make it, and then I have to like put myself through the stress of trying something new and then and then you know, creating. And so I found myself out of work in 2022 and I decided to start a podcast, do a conference, and then start a company all at once. So yeah, why not? And so I look at the conference as being kind of the dessert and cherry on the top. It's really my passion project, if you will. And I'm really blessed that we have a lot of great speakers and a lot of great conferen or a lot of great sponsors, and then also the attendees that come that are really making this more of a conversation than a than a conference.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

That's exciting. Yeah, there's that's definitely, I mean, there's a huge need for that and super excited. So how did your or super exciting, excuse me, how did your kind of frontline experience working in the field influence how you approach building your staff systems today with your company or kind of what you bring to the table with your ABA Care Summit?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

That's a great question. You know, I wear a lot of and have worn a lot of different hats. You know, I did that kind of RBT job, if you will, or pre-RBT for about 14 years. I did training, you know, I kind of already discussed what I did, but I also worked very closely with the intake teams, the scheduling teams. And I think what it allowed me to do is to see where there's miscommunication and to be able to see where we can do better in terms of collaborating, where visibility is important, because I'm able to see it from different viewpoints. I can take those perspectives and of what could work and what couldn't instead of trying to just solve something in a silo, if you will. So I'm not talking about one specific problem from one specific point of view. And then even being an owner, I can look at it now from that point of view too. So I really think it has benefited for me because I want to then give a platform to all of the different people. And I think that's also what makes it a little different.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

That's

Silos, SOPs, And Data With Context

SPEAKER_04 14:20

that's tricky because you you use the word silo, which I think is interesting, and it almost seems like there's a a lot of adversarial almost relationships within kind of the the ABA landscape these days. There's like, you know, kind of executives or private equity that are like, you know, money, money, money. And then there's the clinical side of things, and then there's the insurance side of things where it's like getting paid. And it seems like everybody's almost speaking a different language and certainly has different objectives and I guess KPIs, all right. That's the the buzzword that that people love to use, like it like it's something amazing that they're looking for in terms of like metrics of success. So when you talk about those silos, I I think even in my limited experience, um, you you certainly have much more broad in terms of like the business side of things. I really resonate with that. And then you mentioned visibility as well. When you said visibility, were you referring to like individual staff visibility? Were you referring to the visibility of the ABA field as a whole? What were you referring to there?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

I was thinking more of visibility from a visual, like I would say an SOP allows there to be visibility, certain metrics, getting everybody on the same, speaking the same language, like you mentioned that it seems like everybody has their own language, which is true. And so, what is a universal language? Numbers is a universal language, you know, operations, you know, being able to break something down, one, two, three, agreance is universal. So if we could do that, that's the direction I I try to go in.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. I remember working with um the previous company we were at, not the last one, but the one before that, that we kind of ran. We used to have meetings with our uh with our higher-ups, and they kind of for the most part stayed out of everything, but they would just check in occasionally when she found the time to not cancel the meeting. And you know, we'll talk.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

But she would use the clear your calendar and then 30 minutes before, oh, something came up, we're gonna have to push you guys off. Yeah, it was that was exciting.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

I'm sorry. But we would have these metric meetings and numbers meetings, and you know, she would have this phrase that data don't lie, or numbers don't lie, or numbers don't have feelings, which I'm not sure if that person actually knew what that meant, but that's I I feel like there's a lot of truth in kind of what you're saying, and that's what you're saying as well, is that could be a universal language of like this is the number that's being spit out. I'm not saying whether it's good, bad, and different. We're just saying this is the number. Are you happy? Do you want it to change? Do you not want it to change? Like, that does make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Well, and and you you're alluding to variables that now don't just point at revenue or money, which I think to your example, that was the frustrating part for me in that circumstance is we're talking about KPIs, but that seems to be singular when the discussion comes down to it, it's just about hours or money. You're alluding to many other variables that it's standard operating procedures, and it doesn't, and and we're not saying that it all has to look the same, but it all has to hit that mark at some point in time. I think that's super important because what also I think happens or is commonplace is you define those things, and then people might get a little too stringent about how that practice looks toward that standard operating procedure, and then maybe you end up a little sterile or RBTs are unhappy about not having flexibility in their treatment, they don't feel supported. I mean, so many things can go wrong despite a good intent.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yep. Any any additional thoughts or things you wanted to expand on on that piece, Sally?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, I mean, I think that they're goals, right? And so the flexibility is important. I also think that they're a starting point, but as you just said, like this is a number, that number is a fact. Now, what is the story behind the number? And that's where it gets interesting, is the data is great, but the context is more important, and that's where that's where I get really jazzed up.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

I love it. Yes, and I think that's I've kind of by default become like a little more of the numbers guy on our current business. And it's really easy to look at PL sheets or look at numbers and make attributions that may or may not be correct. But like being that I've been in the field for so long, I think it's just inherent that we'll ask why, like, what's going on? Right. Not just like this number needs to change, but why, what's going on? What are gonna be the effects, right? The butterfly, you can't just change one one number. Like, I remember we were sitting with the that team at a previous company and the numbers weren't good. They were like, Well, you're gonna have to lay off six RBTs, so in the next week, let us know which RBTs you want to lay off. And it's like we were like, No, we're not gonna do that because you can't just magically lay off RBTs and keep the same level of charges, and that's not gonna like solve anything. But it's kind of that that singular focus without asking why, or what could happen as a result of doing these things that sometimes can get people in trouble. Because if we did that, number one, we'd have unhappy employees and unhappy clients that wouldn't have services, but also now we'd be bringing in less money, which would have us have more meetings about why are we not bringing in as much money. So there's like like you said, and I relate to that so much about getting jazzed up about the why. The numbers, like maybe you're saying give you a starting point and give you kind of a the playing field, even playing field to then say, okay, we can agree on this is what the number is. Now let's figure out why. Is that kind of what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, and my heart hurts for even hearing that that is the recommendation of how to get rid of people and my HR like risk is like going off, like just beeping, like, oh gosh, like who determines that and how, you know, and so yeah, that's but that's exactly what I was saying.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

We in all fairness, we learned a lot from those experiences, learned a lot about what not to do. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

It's like relationships. You you right your next relationship is usually very different than the one previous, right? Because you learn what you don't want in that person, and you're like, nope, never again. We're not gonna do it that way ever. Okay, never dating a Cowboys fan again. There we go. And it was actually interesting in that meeting because yeah, like our alarm bells were going off as well. And and it's interesting too because you know, we said my my partner and I who were at that meeting were like, you can lay us off before you'll lay them off. Because also we were making way more than when they than they were and producing less actual tangible value to the company in terms of like billable hours. So it's just it's always interesting when those discussions start, right? It's never like executives saying, Hey, these are the numbers, let me cut my salary or let me um lay myself off or furlough myself for a little while. Anyway, I'm down.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

We can only we can dream, Dan.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

We're down and we've done it. Down a rabbit hole. But yeah, so your you feel like your direct care, like being directly, and it just gave you a little bit more fuel for where those numbers might have been coming from. Am I understanding that correctly?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, and what they're and what it's saying, right? And also where to look. You know, what is the data, what is the actual data that's important to look at? I'm thinking of a really bad example, and it's not even about me, but I'm gonna share it anyway. So my husband, who mostly was doing like a lot of auditing in Central Reach and things like that, was pulled into a special project. And they were trying to look for correlation of outcomes and cancellations, and they were asking to pull data, but the data they were pulling didn't take into account like real life, like school being involved or you know, natural. breaks. And so it was a bunch of P guys, right? I not that not that there's anything wrong with that. But asking for data without understanding how it looks. And so yes, I I think that I think that the best recruiters or the best people to be able to look at the data are people who understand what the job itself is so that they can look for those kind of nuances, if you will.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Funny that you bring that up. A good buddy of mine who I guess for the sake of this podcast, the will remain nameless. To protect the innocent. Yes, we were chatting with him, what was it, maybe like a week or two ago. And so the this individual works for like an ABA company that, you know, one of the private equity things. And one of the great ideas that of course that and doesn't mean all PE is this way, but the because he's on kind of the operation side had is that you know what every day we you've got to send us these numbers like these I think it was like you know employee or cancellations like why somebody canceled percentage of appointments retained and things like that. And I was laughing I was like every day like why do you need this much data? Are you making decisions based on every day you're going to make a decision within your company like there's no you can't just wait a week or a month and say like hey these are the because you're not going to be making decisions based on this data in real time. Like you you've got to so it's just sometimes it's just like you were saying the the data just for the point of data just so people can feel like they're looking at the data. And I can even relate to that too as a is a BCBA honestly in the clinical side of things. Like people RBTs would take so many data points and a good BCBA looks at them every couple of weeks and you know we hear about a lot of BCBAs not looking at them nearly that often but it's like so often we just get this abundance of data and we have it and it looks cool in a report and makes a really nice central reach graph or Excel sheet but it's like is anything actually being done with this data is is the data actually helping efficiency which it could be or is it hurting efficiency because now you're just taking data to take data. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I don't know random 100% yes that that would have been my answer to yes Dan to both your questions. Yes the answer is yes and and I think yeah I like the point that you make with the clinical and that's been something that I've advocated for pretty loudly is in saying why you know from our goals to everything to do why do we need this expanse of information when we're not using it and then on the other end I think on the business end they want the expanse of information but it comes down to that one variable again revenue right money. It's that's the one indicator and we can't seem to get away from that. So I think I I know the next question I'm going to give it a shot unless you want to were you going to say something though Holly I think we might have cut you off I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

No no no you're all good. Yeah and nothing I mean I said nothing and then I'm going to say something. It doesn't allow for behavioral change right so we know that like you can't look every day and then try to maybe make some tweaks and see if it changes otherwise why are we looking at it and asking for it if we're not going to try to improve it so I'd imagine that they wanted to try to see it so that they could look for or pinpoint an area that they could talk to or fix. But it doesn't sound like that if they're not able to like you said gather enough information that's meaningful and then try something and then give it long enough to look at it again. Yeah. But yeah that that was just kind of what I was going to add.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah absolutely that's a perfect segue actually right into the next question. So from a human resources

Function First For Leaders And HR

SPEAKER_02 25:40

or a management perspective all these examples we're talking about these managers are missing the point somewhere they're not using the science that we we proliferate right or that we that we put out there. What if you had to pick at least one thing one behavioral principle one behavioral tenant that you think every manager, HR person, executive person should really take to heart what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah for me it's function you know behavior serves a purpose purpose for the person doing it. And so every time even if the behavior seems irrational or it seems irresponsible from the outside there's a reason for it happening and that reason lives in the function of the behavior. And so I think that HR's default or sometimes even leadership or executives lead their default is to come from a standpoint of authoritarian. So they want to go to the person and say right like I see the net hats you got your or the head nods you guys are a little story for you when you're done but go ahead. Yeah okay I would love to hear it. I definitely I just think and tell me if this resonates it seems like it is but they go in there from a standpoint of we're going to put a PIP in place, right? A performance improvement plan. And this is the behavior that we want to see and that is it. And we know that that doesn't work. You have to be able to assess you have to be able to come up with a why and then individualize it. And so take it in an RBT for example you know they might they might be a really good performer and then all of a sudden it starts to they start to decline they start to call off they start you know things start to impact and maybe there's a why there you know maybe it's the fact that they have all the difficult cases and they've spoken up and said hey I can't have back to back to back you know level three high intensity problematic behaviors that I'm working on because I'm I just can't keep up with it. Can you guys you know mix it up for me or hey the drive is taking a little bit long. I'm constantly late to this one appointment can you help me out here and they've voiced it especially RBTs they tend to be brushed aside and you know they keep getting pushed into these situations. And so when they advocate when anybody advocates and we know this they're not being reinforced they're going to stop you know talking and speaking up and eventually it's going to show up in missed you know sessions is is where you're going to see it. And we also tend to look at things from a it's not us, it's a you problem right and that's very humanistic but there's something that I like to I'm just going to throw this tool out there the performance diagnostic checklist with human services. And so that is an actual like systematic way to go through and say like are we supporting is the environment right for you and where is the breakdown from our standpoint and then also listening to the why and having the employee be part of that as well. But I'll take a breath because honestly I can talk about this specifically for the whole two hours.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Well we're excited about that.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Yes you have a story and then we're going to go back to Holly I do I I have a question for you regarding that. Do you find that employees will usually be forthcoming so a lot of times they're going to call out sick right and I'm putting sick in quotes because they might be physically sick they might be mentally sick they might just be exhausted. There could be they might just not want to work that day sick of it all. Yes sick of it all sick of the shit what do you find like employees in your experience more often than not will be honest or do you find that they'll just say oh I have a migraine or whatever when really the the thing that's causing them to not want to work is because they have the four difficult clients or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

I think that if the right environment is there, they will start out being honest. If the right environment of safety psychological safety is not there, they will start and with that migraine but they also might not be doing that from like a devious standpoint, right? They might not be able to identify what the reason is quite yet themselves. And that's where that interactive piece is so important from the supervisor from HR to say hey listen like you know after maybe two data points right you're you missed twice which is unlike you know that's unlike you we just want to make sure like are you doing okay is there anything that we need to do like let's let's be a thought partner in this and let's get to the heart of it because sometimes they just don't they might not be able to tack it themselves to be able to to ask for the help.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Yeah

Why Punishment Fails With Attendance

SPEAKER_04 30:05

that that makes a lot of sense is I mean I'll abbreviate the story because you basically touched on it so much but at the very last company that we worked at there was a problem with attendance with RBTs which is fairly common could be for a multitude of reasons. And so there was this one school case which was five days a week and the we were in the supervisor meeting and they were talking about this RBT and said the RBT is great but this RBT just keeps calling out and calling out and it's really challenging because with school cases we have to find coverage like that morning and it's really you know it's it's becoming an issue and I don't know if you have any guess what their their remedy for this RBT that was calling out was any thoughts on what what their thought is oh well they're calling out what we're gonna do is make a behavioral improvement plan and if they don't make at least like 80% of their sessions then we're gonna like suspend I think they said like suspend them for like a a day or a week or something like that. And like so there were the team that we came from and then the other team that kind of took us off and the whole team that we came from just kind of looked at each other like are you are you serious? Like this person doesn't want to work and your solution is to make them less wanting to come to work that's that's what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah but we weren't the management so we we just kind of laughed and said that we think that's silly but yeah so go ahead but you you foreshadowed that perfectly briefly prime example of of how the science was not being used at all in that moment right so how many behavior analysts does it take to do human you know decent human resources practice everybody was I mean yeah we were all missing we we couldn't do anything about it but the point was being grossly missed to say the least yeah it reminds me of when my daughter was misbehaving at school and their punishment was that she'd have to stay in during recess.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Well it turns out she didn't want to go outside it was too cold. So like thank you for reinforcing that so it's the same thing right like if this person needs a break your punishment also is to then give a forced break like it none of it makes sense as a solution.

SPEAKER_04 32:17

Yep yeah it's awful and like you said I think a lot of it does come to this kind of authoritarian piece and as you mentioned I think that's where you being in the direct side of things has really helped speak to Mike I mean Mike still does probably 80% if not more of his hours are direct with the client not supervising. So being out there like seeing how hard it is to work with one level three client much less three back to back seeing how hard it is to work with three level one clients like seeing how hard these things are and putting yourself kind of in these people's shoes I think really helps kind of level out that playing field where it's not just us these higher up people that haven't seen a client in 15 years making decisions about what the RBTs need to be doing when they have no idea what the RBTs need to be doing.

unknown 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

It's been it's been eye-opening to say the least and I hope it can carry forward even as I step back from more direct work. But yeah I I think you're you're nailing it and saying it's just good to be able to take that perspective. Holly Beth I think you are still out there quite a bit in the field I I may have heard on one of your podcast appearances somehow you talking about that and almost feeling a need to stay active to kind of keep your chops up yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

I live it I mean my whole house everybody in my household is autistic so I mean I just feel like I I live it just in the everyday you know there's different things while my children are adults there's still things um I held on to clinical as long as I could with my health and so I have I you know kept it on through recruitment I still had a client outside of the of my workplace in another state it was fine like no non-competes all that good stuff but as of late I haven't been able to stay in it but I am very still close to it like my my son was an RBT for a while so I still stay very connected to it.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

But yeah it's interesting too with the authoritarian piece because I'm thinking back to this company specifically and they would always tout how good their culture was but we were in it and we could tell people were not happy but yet they always would talk about like when the you know the owners were there so oh we have such a great culture rah rah rah great culture and people kind of look at me like all right yeah whatever and then they would leave and you know they would talk about how crappy the culture was so I'm not sure if it was the ownership knew how bad the culture was and chose not to listen or because there were too many silos maybe they were just too far the culture was good for them because they were getting the money and they just thought maybe they thought too much of themselves to feel like they wouldn't be able to establish a good culture.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that Mike I think it's hard to admit I think sometimes you know the problem and it's hard to admit it. And furthermore it's hard to not just admit it but to have something on the spot to be able to say but this is what we're gonna do about it and it's okay we're gonna get past this and that's now reforming your culture. Hey chance to bring the team together to go hey we're having trouble with this what are we going to do about it and I think it in my experience you know obviously not as a business owner and what a a pitfall I'm hoping to avoid for us is not kicking it so far down the line that you've got so many of those circumstances that now you can't go back. Now it's impossible to save any face and admit the wrongdoings and then

Success Metrics Beyond Turnover

SPEAKER_02 35:40

even harder maybe to fix them at that point.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

So I guess that kind of leads to the next question that we have for you Holly I'm I'm actually gonna skip one and go to the next one because I think it's so relevant to what we're talking about now is how do you judge success? I know a lot of times turnover is like the first thing of do we have a low turnover and that is the the metric of success. And me being slightly farther away removed because I'm not doing much direct supervision like Mike is it's a little bit harder for me to gauge. So I would look at like I regularly check in with everybody and they say they're great they say they're happy but I also know you know sometimes when people check in with the boss they're gonna say they're happy regardless because why not? So they say they're happy I also look at like how often we when we do events like happy hours and stuff like that people come. So it seems like people are kind of bought into the mission. We don't have a lot of call outs we don't have a lot of turnovers so what are your thoughts on like using turnover rates as a judge of success or what other rec what other things do you recommend that leaders use to evaluate their onboarding and employee support when it comes to success and culture yeah I do really think that turnover kind of tells you if you will that a patient died and but it what it doesn't tell you right is how or what the patient died of.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

So you do need to look at different metrics to be able to treat the cause and outside of the ones the great ones that you already mentioned which is our people showing up and and some of the other call-offs and things like that. I think that looking at warning indicators and so it's you know if you think about it with a car when a car breaks down you've probably had the engine light on for a long time and how long are you ignoring that for it's a great and so thinking about that you just put a piece of tape over it and then it disappears. Yeah or be or or be like my daughter and send a picture and say what do these emojis mean I think they've been on for quite so long I've never heard that that's great the car emojis that's gotta be a meme you you need to make a gif out of that that's incredible that's amazing. I think so and so I think about a couple so I think about how long is it going before your clinicians are getting I'm gonna talk specifically to RBTs right now but how long is it are they going without getting any feedback? You know are we giving feedback during the training? Are we allowing for BST, you know, to be able to get get feedback in a comfortable setting or they do they know the impact that they're making or are you waiting 30 days just to do like a quick check-in? I think the other one that I look at with RBT specifically which is important is in the interview process I always ask them like what is your desired amount of hours that you want to work that is going to make you feel comfortable with your financial health? And so when they answer me that I also then track it how long does it take me to get to those desired hours? And then not only how long does it take me to get to those desired hours, but I also look at how long and are is it sustainable? Are we consistently meeting those desired hours with cancellation in mind? And if not, I better be having a conversation about the fact that where we're falling short and how we can potentially improve that for them because they already told me what they needed and am I delivering on it. And so I want to see that I also want to know how what the reality is when I'm interviewing so that I can be honest about you know this is how long it's probably going to take to get to those amounts of hours or these are some of the risks. But yeah, so looking at that and then also looking at looking at hiring metrics themselves. So like I said when I went into recruitment I noticed that nobody was using the science. And so that's not just an ABA that's really across the board and TA and talent acquisition is looking at the decisions that were being made at the time of hire and giving that feedback to the person making the hiring decision so that they can improve how they're making hiring decisions to to impact the retention. So just even doing that itself I've seen there be less turnover in a company based on better hiring feedback going back to the hiring team or the recruiters if you will.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

That

The Real Cost Of Overselling Roles

SPEAKER_04 39:55

makes a lot of sense which kind of blends into my next question of you you've advocated for telling the truth during that hiring process. So you talked about that in your answer to the the last question a little bit about asking the RBTs how many hours do they need and maybe over or underselling that some organizations I'm sure do that. I know I've worked for some that would be like yeah we can't give you your 40 hours right now but we'll get it to you within two months and then it's three months and then it's five months and then it's six months. So with that piece what are some when we're talking about telling the truth of kind of the onboarding process what are some specific risks you see of overselling a role and how does being upfront about maybe the less desirable parts of the job actually maybe benefit the client the company overall so I'm about to step up on a soapbox here.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

It is yours.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Preach preach sister I'm on it okay microphone is hot. So I think that we're living in the consequence of the high turnover from overselling. So I think we're feeling what that conference you know what that consequence looks like right now. I think we're living in the results of it because there is a lot of overselling or not even overselling but not even thinking about the offers that you're making so like almost overhiring so not being reflective and evaluating and deciding is this person the right fit or not. And so that would be that would be something I would look at as well. But I think that if you stop and you think about overselling in any relationship, if you think about dating and marriage and whatnot, it your performance can only go on for so long. And so it's not going to be a good fit for anyone it's only going to lead to pain down the road it's gonna suck for everyone it's gonna suck for the client it's gonna suck for you as an employer and it's gonna suck for the employee. There's no win situation in it at all. So I do push back on that and and and I get pushback from companies too because they're desperate. But you know you alluded to some of the cost earlier in the conversation but you also there's also the other cost to that there are the vacancy costs as an employer if you want to talk money there's the amount of time that you're not being able to give treatment based on how all you know how something's open right and if you're hiring constantly you're not getting the right person in there's that true cost. And then there's the cost from I'll put on my parent hat of me not wanting to stay with your company because I no longer trust you to get me somebody that's going to stay. And I'm also not going to trust the company to or even ABA potentially because I'm not seeing the outcomes because I'm constantly in the state of waiting or I'm the state of of having to re-explain my child every five minutes. So yeah I'll step down of my soapbox but I mean I could go on and on I I cannot stand when I hear somebody oversell a job I'm like you do you you do know what the reality of that is going on right like I'm gonna have to borrow her soapbox because this is my soapbox.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

I was gonna say you don't have to step down quite yet but why don't you guys switch places go aheadbox I want to get on here because I so I'll speak I guess more to the direct question that you answered first was the the overselling you and you unfortunately had to deal with this as the supervisor of the high turnover at the school at the previous job. Sure sure that's whether a lot of times so you could have we work we currently do with our the company that we have and previous companies would work with school districts and those cases are great consistent hours and things like that. But sometimes the way it works is the school district is like I need a staff tomorrow can you staff it like not not nice like hey two weeks or three weeks it's just like we need something tomorrow and we would see with the the previous company of which I was the trainer really bringing on people that weren't really cut out for it Because people didn't want to say no. Because if you say no, I can't staff this, then they're worried about am I going to keep getting referrals? Yeah. So we'd say yes and then either not staff it, or what I would see because I was the trainer, which is kind of like the second line, is that we'd get people in, you know, that come from like a moving background or carpentry or something. Not that that's bad, but zero experience, very little training that we would we would offer. It was just kind of like throw them out there. I remember there was somebody that was coming back to the company that had a history of cancellations, and they staffed her on a case that needed very consistent staffing. And just to just to fill a seat. And what would happen, because Mike was the supervisor of a lot of these cases, is they would not be effective, they would call out a lot, and there was a lot of issues behaviorally with these cases, which are fairly high profile typically in the school, which would actually really be a detrimental like reputation to this this company. So by trying to save their reputation on the front end and not say no, I feel like they did long-term, like irreparable damage to the reputation because they were putting crappy people in that were not trained because they oversold their they oversold the job to the staff and they oversold their ability to fulfill the obligation to the client.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

And in all fairness, I mean, those some of those people may not have been crappy people. No, it was they just weren't, to your point, adequately trained. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

And were oversold on like what the job it it might, I think it was presented of like, oh, you want to make $25 an hour with benefits and 30 hours guaranteed? And a lot of people are like, heck yeah, I'm making $17 an hour as moving, and it's such manual labor. Yeah, that sounds great. Not understanding there's a reason why there might be a difference in compensation there.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

You know, and one thing that I think we don't take into account enough is those RBTs, those people, when those situations fail, those circumstances fail, they feel bad about themselves. Yeah. That's I mean, that's terrible. Like somebody I sent out to take care of a very important high-profile situation with a student or a you know, somebody's child. You send them out ill-equipped, yes, and then you blame them for the failure. They get fired. Can you imagine the weight of that on a young professional? That's that's devastating. And how does that affect the greater field? I mean, are we getting a bad name because of it? I I believe we are. I believe that's part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah, Mike, the piggyback off, and I'm so glad that you brought it up because that is a real risk, is that these people, that's gonna be their experience of what ABA is, and then they're gonna go out thinking that that that that's what that there's no place for them. And so we already have limitation in having good staff, and so we could potentially, you know, ruin somebody that may have even become a good BCBA. We don't know. And so, and to your point, and that's why when I'm interviewing, I think of the person on the other side as my client. And I want to make sure that I'm getting them and setting them up for success. And I'll even tell them, listen, I end the interview like this. This is this is my little guilt trip. I'm gonna give you my little secret.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Is I say, you know, thanks for interviewing. I want to give you the night to really sleep on this because I know that you are a giver. And when I want you to think about your boundaries, I want you to think about really like the time that you said that you could commit. I want you to come back and give me a different answer if that has changed. But I also want you to know that this is a really hard job. And I think the last thing that you want to do is to leave the job feeling like you you did something that wasn't that wasn't good. And so I want you to think about this commitment to this family and to this client because turnover does have an impact. So I'm gonna tell you the reality of what you're gonna get in terms of training. I'm gonna tell you the reality of what the job looks like, but it is your responsibility to sleep on this and decide if right now is a good time or if you need to get some more experience elsewhere first that's not healthcare and not ABA, and I can give you recommendations for that. And that's okay too. So that's kind of how I and then I check in on them. Okay, you slept on it. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Yeah. Yeah, I love going, you know, I work for another crisis management company, and early on we just talk about the risks of working with people, and it's not just the ABA company, you know, we work with ABA providers, but also schools and group homes and hospitals and things like that, and talking about getting hit and kicked and spit on and being called just the most derogatory stuff to your face, and you just have to sit there and be professional about it. Stuff where if it was outside of work, it might have a different response. And that's that's not easy to do. And I've been in this field for a while, and there have been clients that have knocked me off, you know, my my baseline behavior, right? Like, it's really easy to be like, yeah, that person's gonna call me a POS and this in my face, and I'm gonna ignore it, and it's a different thing when it, you know, when it happens. So like being very forthcoming, like almost on the ad should be like, Do you enjoy getting spit at and called whatever? And also playing with kids, which is but to help people understand that, yeah, there's there's a reason why why we might be looking for why we might be offering a few more dollars than than you're currently making.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

He just made me think of a job description like that. That's funny, right? Not getting paid for cancellations, which happen frequently, uh getting nagged about your notes, uh all the things we don't talk about. Yeah, you know, these young, you know, fresh, bright-eyed professionals. I studied psych. Oh, I can actually get a job in this. Oh, this is wonderful, and wow, they pay pretty well, and then you walk into just a nightmare of a situation where you're getting, you know, yep, gag jobs. Working late, never seeing any of your co-workers, always in your car.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

I've I've shared the story too many times, so I'll keep it brief, but it's new to you. So I was a psych major in college, wanted a job in the field, so back on the day, click went on Craigslist, clicked jobs, literally wrote in the words psychology job, and there was a ABA job with the first company that I might met Mike with like 20 years ago. I had no idea what ABA was, I had very, very little idea what all I mean, I knew what autism was, but not really what autism was. This was 2006. So I get a job at this company, and the first two weeks they had this great training with occupational therapy and you know, rec therapy and play therapy and all of this cool stuff. And it was exciting, and it was like, oh, cool, we get to do all these cool things. And they're like, All right, tomorrow you start with your first client. And it was upstairs in the same place that we did the training. And I walk upstairs and they're like, Meet Mike, he'll be your first supervisor. And I introduce myself. Oh, and Mike's in this small room, and they're nailing plexiglass on this window and nailing wood boards onto the wall, and like plexiglass where the light would be, so somebody couldn't like pull the light out. And I was like, What is this? Nobody said anything about this. It was all just like playing with kids and having fun. And what what in the world? We're doing construction. What's happening? Because the new the client was coming tomorrow, and like you said, the client had learned from his school setting that if he knocked people out, they would suspend him when he didn't want to do work, so he had that nicely built into his behavioral repertoire. So we had to deal with no matter what happens, we can't send him home, which was why they were making the room like that. But I digress. The whole reason I bring that up is that was never there was never any even allusion to that.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Dan spent those two weeks. You mentioned floor time and teach earlier. Dan spent those two weeks learning all about visual structure and the beauty of all those things. And then he walks all the he walks into this room and it's like, yeah. So when the kid uh tries to throw the chair through that window or punches

Triggers, Fit, And Better Matching

SPEAKER_02 51:55

you tomorrow, we can't send him home because that's the contingency he's working on.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

And he's like, Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, it is important. I'm like, and that's but to your point, and I think this is important too, is like you have to know yourself and your limitations. You have to know your age ranges that you're comfortable with, you have to know the behaviors that you're comfortable with, and I assess all of those before you're even hired to know do we have a client match for that? And and kind of like the violin a little bit. I want to know, I understand you're self-reporting, but I do want to know that. And that comes from me interviewing in once I interviewed in this high school setting that was behavioral, and I walked around the gate, it was like about a half a day of me watching them. And at the end of the interview, I shook their hand and I said, Thank you. It's a hundred percent not for me. Like I can't take verbal aggression, and I can't take it from teenagers. You give me a non-vocal individual who's whatever, and they can hit and beat on me all day, and I will help them find their language, but I cannot take verbal aggression. It's a trigger for me. And so you do, you have to know. And so, and so being being transparent in the job interview is that is so important.

SPEAKER_04 53:01

That's actually really interesting to put that on like some sort of employment uh hiring checklist. Like, what are your triggers? Unfortunately, we don't always have the luxury of being able to perfectly pair a client with an RBT. I wish we did, but it's usually, you know, like you bring on an RBT and they serve these five clients because those are the five clients you have.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Yeah, no, but you bring up a good point in terms of trying to look at it that way, right? Because right now it's more of a what's available, and then we, you know, to your point, Holly, we're gonna expect any given, you know, even a high performer is gonna have a limitation at some point. No, I can't, I don't do well with that, but more often than not, we're just filling in slots, right? And that information is being missed.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

And then we're wondering why somebody might call out sick or whatever because they're triggered by the exact behaviors that the clients are emitting when maybe we could have dealt with that or at least been made more aware of that on the front end rather than the back end. That's a really interesting thought.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Yeah, I try to think of it kind of like as allergies, right? Like I want to know, are you allergic to cats or dogs? So if I put you in the home, like you might suffer taking an allergy medicine, but you can't really get over it. Same thing with triggers. Like you might be able to try, but you if you can't get over it, and then we need to know that up front. You know, if you're gonna react every time that a client self-vomit, you know, induces vomiting, and like you have a gag reflex and they feed off that gag reflex, and nobody's getting anywhere. Like we're all just gagging. Um, I don't know why I use that as an example.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

This is pretty contagious behavior.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

That's why you look at it.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

It is. I just can't stop thinking about it. Um, but yeah, I mean, that that would be one. You know, you have to you have to know if there are any real triggers. Like, obviously, not preferred, not everybody can get their preferred client. Like, I don't prefer getting spit on. I can tolerate it, but I it's not my preference. But that doesn't mean I don't get clients who spit at me and you can't predict. And that's the other thing I I try to explain to the candidates. We're humans dealing with humans. You're not gonna be able to always be at baseline to your point, right? And neither is the client, they're gonna come up with new behaviors and more innovative ways, you know, based on really you too. So, like whatever triggers you, know that that is potentially going to be a pattern that they catch somehow. And if you and and and that might then be the behavior that you're gonna have to work on, and we're gonna have to help you work on managing your reaction. So there is some give and take in reality there too.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

So the the company that that I work for that does

De-Escalation And Self-Regulation Training

SPEAKER_04 55:30

the crisis management has a really cool visual about that. I think we tend to think of baseline as one line, but baseline is more of like a road, right? Like you have your fluctuations, sometimes you have more energy or less energy, but your your mood kind of changes, but that's still like in baseline, right? And one goal is to try to make that road more like a freeway. Like the more lanes you have, the wider you're still at baseline. And then outside of that is like self-regulation, where you're not at baseline anymore, but you're still able to regulate. And that's like the shoulders of the road, right? Like you're you're not on the road anymore, but you're still you're able to get back on the road. And like, can we make the shoulders of the road bigger to like okay, I've been triggered, but before I lose it and say something I'm gonna regret, I can do X, Y, and Z strategy to get back on the road. And then outside of the road is you know the grass or whatever, and you're completely away from being able to kind of regulate yourself. So when you were talking about that, Ali, it made me think about that visual, and I I think that would be a a useful thing to present to people to give them that that thing of first widen your baseline if possible, or widen your ability to regulate to get back to baseline because nothing really good happens when we've moved away from our ability to regulate.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

I I can I add one quick thing on it. Sorry, I I love that so much for a lot of reasons besides the visual, which now it and I also happen to really love driving and travel visuals, so you nailed it. But it there's another thing that's happening in ABA, a trend of not training de-escalation and trying to say we're hands off and missing you know, prevention. And that to me has it had an impact on turnover that we're missing and is also a real risk, like what you're saying, the training we might give the 40 hours of training and be like, There you go, I got the 40 hours, but we haven't taught them how to regulate themselves in a very difficult situation. And I saw your eyes light up, Mike. So I don't know if you want to say something to that, but you got me all revved up.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

No, no, I mean I just it just resonated a hundred percent, you know, every everything that you were saying there. And I I've been thinking about a million other things. In fact, I was kind of stuck on the detail of of cat allergies. You had mentioned that a little bit in terms of uh, and I've for some I have a mild cat allergy, and for some reason many of our clients right now that I serve directly have cats, so it's been an active conversation with them, and they've all been great about putting the cats away and and even saying, Oh, I I cleaned today. Does it look good? And I'm like, Oh, you don't have to go that far. But they are they're they're really good. And again, these are just little details in back to the idea of being able to regulate or be comfortable within your workspace. We go into people's homes more often than not. That's you know, there's not a lot of control there, but we can certainly command a little bit of collaboration with regard to being able to self-regulate, whether it's having allergies, whether it's a child that's very hyperkinetic or or very aggressive. How are you now then learning to do that not just for yourself, but how does that impact the parent as you're now demonstrating these procedures and protocols? You know, as you're getting verbally aggressed or spit on, and you're yeah practicing your best extinction or or non-response, right? That's that's a lot. And again, these are these young, bright-eyed professionals that are dealing with a whole bunch of other stuff. And I think you're absolutely right. That is it had never even dawned on me in terms of our training. It will be part of our discussion here moving forward, is that aspect of training. I think maybe we so far we do well because we spend so much time with our RBTs that maybe we're able to hit those things and and modeling them, but it's never been a direct discussion. So I really appreciate you bringing that up.

SPEAKER_04 59:05

And your de-escalation point, I think, is so valid because the company I work for now with the de-escalation piece, that's for ever since I can remember, has been part of the onboarding training. So it's in addition to the RBT, it's not you know part of the RBT certification, but the trainings that we were involved that we did were always, you know, like a week or two weeks, and then this training was two to two and a half days on top of that. And I would always contend from day one that people learned more applicable information from that two to two and a half day de-escalation training that could be used the first 30 to 60 days than they did in the 40-hour RBT training. Like that did them knowing if they were on an FR1 schedule or a VR2 schedule have any practical relevance to them, or them knowing whether they were, you know, using a DRO or DRA, whatever it is, like that stuff, it's cool, it explains the science, but it wasn't like practical implementable, where like the de-escalation piece was so at the end of the day, what's gonna stress RBTs out is you've got the kid crying in front of you, and the parents there like, we're paying you to do something, what are you gonna do? And is that RBT able to regulate themselves and figure out something, or is the RBT either gonna freeze and and then the parents like, Why are you here? Because you're freezing, or the RBT gonna overreact, and then the parents like, What did you just do with my child, right? That de-escalation piece was so much more applicable and a better use of time than the 40-hour RBT, at least in the initial onboarding in my experience. I don't know if you have any more

Part One Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

thoughts on that, but I totally agree with what you were saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Now I know Holly Beth is gonna have a wonderful response to all that that Dan just put out, but you're gonna have to wait. As this concludes part one of our interview, please do return for part two with Holly Beth Clauser and always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.