Assistive, Augmentative, Alternative: Talking Tech with Jennifer Kraft (Part II)

ABA on Tap is proud to present Jennifer Kraft (Part 2 of 2):

A single line in the wrong plan can change a child’s whole trajectory: “increase compliance.” We dig into what it looks like to replace that mindset with support that actually removes barriers, starting with augmentative and alternative communication and the broader world of assistive technology.

We talk with Jennifer Kraft about why you are never too young or too old to start AAC, and why it is devastating when someone only gets the right device and the right team in adulthood. We walk through the practical reality of access, including the IEP process, insurance requirements, and how SLPs and physicians often become the documentation gatekeepers for prescriptions and funding. If you have ever searched “how to get an AAC device,” “assistive technology evaluation,” or “AAC through Medicaid,” you will leave with a clearer picture of what to ask for and where to look.

Then we zoom out past speech devices into everyday assistive technology that changes lives: weighted bowls and spoons, pencil grips and slant boards, hearing supports, magnification tools, adapted computer mice, and the creative problem solving mindset behind it all. From there, we get real about school-based ABA consultation: building rapport with teachers, setting boundaries, observing the whole classroom system, picking targets that can actually work in a busy environment, and navigating the hard truth that sometimes school politics override good data.

If you care about neuro-affirming ABA, assent and safety, and helping clients become who they are, not who someone else thinks they should be, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review with your biggest AAC or school collaboration question.

Transcript

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Part Two Kickoff And AAC Age

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to ABA on that. A mic review with Dan Lowry. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly. Hey, hey. Welcome back to ABA On Tap. This is your ever-grateful co-host, Mike Rubio. And this is part two of our interview with Jennifer Kraft. Enjoy. You just mentioned something important in terms of age ranges. What what are the considerations for somebody to get started? Is there any limit to be mindful of? Are you are you ever too old or too young?

SPEAKER_05 0:59

I don't I don't think so. I mean, you know, look at the ages of kids that are you see playing with devices.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

It's everybody.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

It's everybody. And and again, if I go to those examples of some of those people with dyspraxia that are you can I can't think of any of their names right now, but they're on social media and getting their devices at age 20, older than 20, and only being able to find their voice at those ages. And and to me, that's heartbreaking, yeah, that they didn't get set up with the right people, and it wasn't because they didn't have the ability. But the people that I'm thinking of specifically, it was because people didn't work with them to get what they needed. And that's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem.

Getting AAC Through Schools And Insurance

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Wow. So I didn't mention assistive tech at the beginning, our introduction. I mentioned everything else about you, but we've what a what a deep dive. Now, maybe shifting gears here into so maybe through schools, it makes a lot of sense for people, right? Through the IEP process, getting the AAC device makes a lot of sense to people. And then there's the insurance and and other, I guess, commercial service work. What is where does it come together? Do we, as commercial providers, as you said earlier, yes, we're part of a team. Do we have a wherewithal to say, hey, maybe we should consider this? Are we always taking an SLP's lead? What's your take on that?

SPEAKER_05 3:04

I think it's something that we need to be aware of. I'm again, my background is different. I come at it from a teacher, I have a background with of AT, so I'm looking for that generally more than other people. I think they're gonna need a subscription from an SLP.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

That's the way the process works. So that from uh from a logistical administrative perspective, we have to take their lead.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

You're you're not not necessarily you have to take their lead, you have to involve them.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah, okay. Because they're the gatekeepers in a sense. They they they get to mind the gate.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Yeah, the the doctor and the SLP are the ones that are gonna have to write prescriptions for the insurance if that's the route you're gonna take. And it it all depends on what services you have available in your area. So I know Shriners hospitals can do AT evaluations. So if you have a Shriner's hospital in your area, you can contact them and they can do AT evaluations.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:15

And that would probably be a more full scale where they're gonna look at it from the AT or the speech background, they're gonna look at it from the OT, they might bring physical therapy into it. So that's gonna be a more well-rounded than just a speech therapist. If you go to a children's hospital, so you can do it through just like a school speech therapy or a hospital, a regular hospital speech therapist, but the more specialized you have, the better the chances are. And there are people who have backgrounds in assistive technology. There are a few programs around that they can do evaluations as well.

Assistive Tech Beyond Communication

SPEAKER_01 5:07

So those are the kinds of things that I like the distinction you make between we've only we've talked primarily AAC, and that falls under the umbrella of AT. Tell us a little bit more about other assistive tech that's out there that's not necessarily related to communication that you that you really like.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

So assistive technology can be is is anything that helps an individual. So a weighted bowl, a spoon that's shaped differently, a weighted spoon or weighted fork. Something not for necessarily kids, but those things that you can put around your feet that hold your socks to put your slide your foot into if you can't bend over, mobility aid, so walking canes, a cane, a wheelchair, the bigger strollers, uh assistive technology. There's just so much to it. Again, like I can't wait to go to closing the gap and just see everything that's out there that's been produced since the last time that I was really working in it. Prosthetics, things the the suits that they're using for people that are paralyzed, low-tech things, things that are a magnifying glass to blow things up for people that need to see things because of their vision. Glasses are assistive technology. Headphones and microphones, the the systems that some teachers use to amplify their voice in a classroom, hearing aids. It's a pencil grip.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

So any of those things fall under that that idea. I mean, you said it earlier, even in terms of augmentative alternative communication, you mentioned PECs and sign language, and we wouldn't necessarily think of those as technologies, but in this sense they are.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sign language is as low tech as you can go.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah, it is it is, however, a tech. I think that's the kind of the important piece here. How do you become well-versed in such a I mean, this is a wide array of assistive technologies that exist? You got exposure to them within the school setting. I'm guessing that was probably pretty beneficial because maybe you see more of those in concentration in those settings. But, you know, to the average citizen, everything you mentioned, these things aren't necessarily well known. These these are little more medical devices, more, but the idea of assistive tech toward something neuro-affirming, which is another another topic we can get into, that's not necessarily the way the conversation always goes.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

I think it is based more on need. So if you have a client that's struggling with something, then you just kind of have to go into a deep dive and try and figure out what's out there to support that. There are some things that, yeah, schools kind of typically have, you know, for writing or for doing coloring and doing tasks, sometimes they have wedge boards, which a real cheap way to make one is to take the slant boards, is to take a three-inch binder and use that. That works and it's it doesn't cost nearly as much as a slant board does the weighted bowls we would use a lot in preschool because we would have kids that just didn't have the fine motor control when with feeding at snack time and things like that. Weighted spoons, the spoons that turn, uh a lot with feeding, which is obviously something that some people will say we should be doing in ABA, some people will say we shouldn't be doing an ABA, but they're not they're not hard to do. And honestly, if you go to Walmart sometimes or to I don't know if babies RS exists, I don't have kids. Um but sometimes you'll see those things or just the bowls that have the lips or the ones that suction cup down. You may not think that they're like are an assistive technology, but they are a sippy cup. There's two sippy cups, but it's just a matter of you kind of when there's a problem, people in assistive technology are just like creative problem solvers. Really, like you just have to kind of then figure out like, okay, so for example, when I was teaching computers, I had a young man whose digits weren't all the same length, some were incredibly short and some were longer, and using a mouse was incredibly difficult. So I went online and I did some searching and found a mouse with one button that you didn't have to have all three buttons in the the circular the wheel so that it was easier and it was smaller and it fit in his hand. And that mouse was used by several kids that just didn't they the didn't have the fine motor control to be able to use a regular mouse. So again, you you just kind of have to really a lot of the the even the AT and inventions just come out of necessity, you know, that somebody's having a problem, and how do we fix this for this person? Well, what can we create? And with 3D printing, that's been a game changer. They they do contests in schools where you know, like, here's this problem. What can you create that's gonna support this issue?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, so speaking of the assistive technology piece, and that does give you a very unique background because I feel like a lot of BCBAs don't have that background. You

Training And Evaluation Skills Learned

SPEAKER_02 12:02

mentioned that you went to John Hopkins. Shout out, Marilyn. I'm from Maryland. What and you said you did some really cool research and studies at John Hopkins. Can you speak on any of the experiences that you had while you were at John Hopkins through the assistive technology program that were really unique and we'll probably find fascinating?

SPEAKER_05 12:22

No, I didn't say I didn't do it. I did research.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Nope.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

I didn't do research. I said I'm not into research.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I thought you said you did some really cool stuff and research and studies at John Hopkins.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

No, I don't think I did. If I did, I misspoke. We did I the experience was very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Okay, experiences. Maybe it wasn't research, experience. Yeah, what were your uh what were your experiences at John Hopkins that were so unique that we'll probably find very interesting?

SPEAKER_05 12:51

Well, it was just so there were two programs. There was the regular program for regular education for teaching, and then there was our program, and our program was just completely specialized for the assistive for the special ed part of things. So whereas they might have been looking at uh one angle, we definitely were trained to look at the special ed angle. So we did case studies. So I guess I did do maybe after you go and they talk about doing all of those kind of studies, like doing a case study was not okay the same thing. So, you know, I would use some of the the kids in my class, and and again, that little boy with the dynamite was one of the kids that I used to determine what devices would be good for them. There were also some assessment tools that were out that were the predominant tools that you would use in assistive technology evaluation at that time. So we did a lot with really getting to use those and determining and writing evaluations so that if we ever did work in the field of assistive technology, we were able to write comprehensive reports for physicians for insurance and for things like that. You're asking me to go back 20 plus years. I know I had one class where we were able to write grants. I wrote a grant that would provide our entire IU, which was three counties, the entire early intervention program with low-tech, mid-tech, high-tech AT kits. And they never submitted it. I was very annoyed because the woman that was my professor at the time, she she worked with the federal government, and she was like, they really need to submit this. And she really felt that we had a strong chance of getting that grant. But so that would have given everybody like access to board maker and good old board maker. Good old board maker when it was still on a CD-rom.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

I trained on that for you remember, yep.

SPEAKER_05 15:40

Yes, so like board maker for everybody. I think it there was the Intelli keys, everybody would have gotten an Intelli keys. I don't know if you've ever used those. Um it was you could create activities that uh it would have overlays and you'd switch the overlays out. Um there was just several several pieces, and it went from like no tech, low tech, mid-tech, high tech. And I think everybody they didn't get like a dynamite or anything else, but there was some kind of device that was involved in that. But we it was just it was a very good experience. It was very, very in-depth, and I can't remember specifics.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

No worries. So you come with such a diverse background of teaching, and something that we're doing at our company is providing BCBA support in schools. Being

BCBAs In Schools Build Trust First

SPEAKER_02 16:44

that you come from kind of the other side of things, what would be some do's or don'ts or do's and don'ts that you would advise a BCBA coming from the school teacher side of things? Because that's an interesting collaboration experience and opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 17:00

You I think you really need to tread lightly when you go in, which I I mean you I know you guys know this already, because every teacher has a different personality, and every teacher views behavioral support services differently. Some treat it as a threat and see think that you're gonna come in and you're going to tell on them and you're a spy. Some people are just thirteen to death to have support. You really have to make yourself be that person that you know you're there to be on their team and explain that you're like I'm here for the child, and I am here to support you, but I have a job to do. So you kind of like you have to set a boundary, but it has to be one that they understand, and you have to it has to be in their language, and it's it's that relationship building that's so important in all of this. You have to build that relationship with the teacher, with the staff, with the kids, with the the families, and really if you can develop a good relationship and become a team with them and develop a partnership so that they can see you as a resource and somebody who's there to help, that's gonna be key because you can't come in and be like, this is what we need to do for this kid, and I think you we as BCBAs, RBTs, whatever, also need to take it in and understand that yes, there are things that we know work, but they work in situations like clinics and homes in the community, and we're not dealing with 25 other kids. We're singling in on one child, they have to deal with all of the others, the administration that's putting demands on them that we don't know about their personal life and everything else, and it's important to take that in as well and understand that yeah, they could should be doing these things, and they probably are trying to do what you suggest, but it's hard to do that, and you might get frustrated because they're not doing what they should be doing, but they probably are trying, sure, so you know it's it's it's an understanding of and then and rethinking that and reframing that and really sitting and thinking, okay, and observing the whole thing, so don't just observe the client, observe the classroom, look at the other kids, even though yes, you're not treating the other kids and HIPAA too bad. You need to, it's part of the environment. Yeah, they are part of the environment. If there are 10 other kids that can't sit still and are running around the classroom and are talking out, and your child that you're there for is also adding to the chaos or is being brought down by the chaos, how are you gonna put an intervention in to stop that child from talking if 10 other kids are doing it and she's trying to, you know what I mean? You're not gonna do that. So you have to really think is it can I put this on this teacher when she's already dealing with that? Because no intervention that you can put in place is gonna work. So thinking about those kinds of things and really looking at at that environment of what else is going on and being in support, you know, like and some people don't agree with this, and I could get in trouble for saying this, but I'm gonna say it, you know, listening, being an ear, giving some suggestions on some other stuff, like hey, I noticed this happened today. But maybe if you try this, it might work and it might help you out. Because in the long run, that is going to be you are helping, you are working for your client because that's gonna help your client if whatever situation doesn't happen again.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Sure. So when you say That you've got that teacher that has the 10 kids that are causing a disruption and your child's piling on, and there's almost no you know intervention that we could put in that would work in that situation.

Choosing Targets That Fit The Classroom

SPEAKER_02 22:10

What would you advise the BCBA to do in that situation?

SPEAKER_05 22:19

You just it's really a point of looking at what you can do. So it might not you might not be able to address that right then and there, but there's probably something else that you can work on until other things adjust. You might be able to work with the teacher to work on some kind of group contingency for the other behaviors, and and she can get the other kids under control, or there might be scene there eventually. You might be able to work your way back to that, but there's going to be other things that you can work on that might be able to have interventions that can work, but it's a lost cause. You know it, I know it, and the teacher knows it as well. And putting more pressure on the teacher, it's just it's a struggle, less.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

So picking behaviors and targets that are potentially gonna be appropriate for that environment, even if it's not the most pertinent one that needs to be worked on at that moment, build up some momentum from there.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

And as long as it's not a safety thing. I mean, obviously, yeah, if there's a safety concern, you have to work on the safety concern. But if it's something that's not an imminent danger, then you can kind of regroup things and try to move things around.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Okay. And you said too that there's kind of two types of teachers: ones that look at you as a threat, another one that might want one that looks at you as a threat and a spy, and another one that is really excited and uh will take any of the resources. The second one's probably gonna be easier to work with, just generally speaking. So talking about that first type of teacher that either looks at you as a threat, they've been doing things their way in the classroom that's maybe worked until they got this one difficult student. And if that difficult student just left the classroom, then their problems would be solved. What do I have to change the way that I've been teaching for the last 14 years? Or are you gonna tell on me, or who are you? What do you know about teaching? So let's talk about that first demographic there.

Working With Skeptical Teachers

SPEAKER_02 24:31

What would be your recommendations for a BCBA going to work with a teacher that would fit that stereotype?

SPEAKER_05 24:40

It's tough, it's really hard. It's hard teaching with those people because they don't even trust the people they work with, but it's really truly about building rapport and proving to them that you're not doing these things and modeling as you're there. You you just really have to show that you aren't a threat, that you are there to do your job, that you are gonna support them, that there is good in what you do. And honestly, sometimes you're just not gonna win a teacher over. And that second type of teacher, that there's issues there as well, because sometimes they're gonna just take advantage of you and say, Okay, you're here, great, and their hands at that child and be like, All right, you're here, they're yours. Sure, I'm gonna worry about the other kids, and now you got them. So, like there's danger in both extremes, and there I you have teachers across the spectrum, but you you definitely have to watch for both the extremes of both kinds, and there are some teachers that you're just never gonna be able to work with, um, no matter what you do, no matter what you try, um, no matter how hard you try to build that relationship, but I think that's the same with families too. Like there are some times that you just get a really tough family, and no matter how hard you try to do whatever to build rapport, and it it just you just don't click.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

Um and that's part of human nature, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

That's true.

When School Decisions Ignore Data

SPEAKER_01 26:37

We had a couple of those cases this year where politically the outcome has been predetermined. So it doesn't matter how good you come in, how well the student does under your care, the IEP team was hoping that your data proves that a more restrictive setting is required. Success to them is that we're gonna be able to do it, right? We had a couple of those situations, and I I was I felt fortunate enough to have enough experience to be able to look at my staff and say, look, you did the exact job you were supposed to do. You had it in your mind that success was based on the student being retained here in this placement, and to your dismay and mine collectively, this this team had determined already that this child, the student wasn't appropriate here. That's so hard, right? Because you you know, how do you you you derive reinforcement that the student did so well, and now you're saying they're not equipped to be here, even though we know that we addressed you know the issues we're here for. That's that's been tricky to to figure out. You still give your best, right? And and that's all you can do. That's all we can do in our role is is yeah, I did everything to make sure that the behaviors of concern, and better yet, that some new learning happened and the behaviors of concern were taken care of, and then the rest of it is politics sometimes, and there's nothing you can do about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah, when you have competing agendas or motivations, then I mean we both decide define success differently. We wanted the student to integrate, they wanted the student to disintegrate uh from that environment. So very tricky.

SPEAKER_05 28:19

Any thoughts on that before I move to a different I yeah, that that's and happens often where they're just this is what's gonna happen, and we don't care what your data says because this is what we're gonna do. And and that's it's unfortunate for the child, it's unfortunate for the family, it's unfortunate for uh the teachers, but I will also say that sometimes in those situations, there's a lot of things that have happened prior to you again, so there's a lot of history, a lot of history that you're not aware of that there's burnout and fatigue, and people are just at their wit's end, but then why bring somebody else in unless it's just that's what the policy says and this is what we're doing to satisfy that requirement. So, you know, and that's aga again, and maybe this is to your point, just again, that looking at all sides of it, not just looking at it from the BCBA RBT point of view when you're in a school, you really have to look at it from the teacher's point of view as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 29:46

Because if you just look at it from the fact of you're focusing in on one client, it's it's not gonna work. You have to look at the whole entire picture. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Great point. So you

The Red Tape Of Starting A Practice

SPEAKER_02 29:58

just started your own company. Prior to that, you had that, you know, 18-month kind of where you were waiting to get started. And you talked about a lot of red tape. I imagine some of that's Pennsylvania specific with the Medicare districts and such, and some of that is or Medicaid districts, and some of that's probably ABA just starting your own business in general. So, what was some of the red tape? Can you speak to that specifically?

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Let's talk red tape. I like it.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

Well, part of it was the MSO.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

What is MSO?

SPEAKER_05 30:31

Managed service organization.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Ah, okay. Is that like the ones that are the intermediaries between you and the insurance companies?

SPEAKER_05 30:39

So this was one of the companies that say they're going to get your the license and do all of the credentialing and help with your HR and A level.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

So you kind of outsourced all of that. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

So you're gonna just be the BCBA and you're gonna do the clinical stuff and we're gonna take care of everything else. Yeah, no, and then we're gonna take 30% on top of that.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

That's a nice, that's a big chunk.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

That's like the margin, the reimbursement margins right there.

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Yeah. So for those of you that are thinking about it, don't do it. If you want to come and talk to me, I will be glad to tell you about it and why you shouldn't. There are some people that are doing it and are thriving, apparently. Didn't work for me. So that was part of the red tape for the first 18 months. Just the fact that, like, I told them I we needed a group promise number, they said no, we finally got the license. The license was never in my it was in my name, but it wasn't in my company name. So if somebody else wanted to come into Pennsylvania in the southeast Pennsylvania at that point, they would be on the same license as me. Okay, so if somebody did something in their company, it would affect my company.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 31:54

Okay, so not cool. No, but so again, got out of that. So then January would be officially when we started the licensing and prevents open piece again. A lot of it was Pennsylvania specific, because again, we do things very differently here. When I restarted this, I was looking at starting in the Philadelphia area because that's where when I was doing the telehealth, I was working in the Philly area, it just made more sense. Schoko County, when I was starting two years ago, would not give me a letter of support because there was recently a new company that came in and no new staff were hired, really. They basically just took the staff from all the other companies and all the clients, so no new clients were seen. Lovely like we're not doing this, so that was why I was looking in Philly. So when I restarted, I was looking in the southeast to get a license, but then I kind of poked into northeast because Southeast was saying, like, even if you we when we get this from you apply to the state first, and you have to jump through these hoops, and then the state sends your licensing application to the region. The person from the southeast was like, When we get it, it'll sit on somebody's desk for like at least two to three months before we even look at it.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

So that's transparency. I'm not sure how effective that is as transparency, but that's pretty darn transparent.

SPEAKER_05 33:35

It was. So I reached back out to the person at in School County and I said, you know, I'm restarting this. Is it possible now? And she said yes. So I decided I would get start here, which is the northeast region. So now I have to go for two region, two licenses in two regions because it's not. So started that process. The southeast, the northeast contacted me first, but scheduled the the site visit to my virtual office for a month later. And then the Southeast contacted me, no site visit. But with them I had to do Southeast required a complete file on a child from intake to discharge with numerous progress notes of each type. And the discharge couldn't be like a regular discharge, it had to be like because of I was like, oh dear god. So I did that, and I had to meet with the kid every Friday for like a month until he licensed me. The Northeast required me to hire somebody, even though the law the legislation says that you really can't hire anybody until you have the license. And then I literally just got the license right before the 4th of July.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Right on. So then and that's for Medicaid funding. So is the majority of services in Pennsylvania funded through Medicaid, or is it through private medical insurance?

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Or is that just the licensing for any type of that's the licensing to have someone work under you? Like that. So now I have a call for Medicaid number.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Man, that Medicaid number, that number.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

Yeah, so I did get the Medicaid number for Southeast because the Southeast license came sooner. But since then I've decided that I'm like not gonna practice in the Southeast because it's two hours away. And I just focused on the Northeast, and like so now I'm waiting. But because I got my license, I was able to get a single case off. So that's the client that I started because every kid in my referral is a Medicaid case, and I have a doctor's office at the end of my town who is like, let us know when you get your Medicaid number because we have a list of like 10 kids.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

And the service access management is like, let us know when you're ready because we have them. So I'm not worried about that at all. It's just good this process of waiting. But here's the other funny thing. So the the promise is what your the Medicaid number comes from. There was an issue with one of my applications because they call it the group number, but it's not the group number, it's the facility number. So when I did the original application, I filled it as out as a group, and I was supposed to fill it out as a facility. So I made the mistakes, caught the mistake, went to try and fix it, but they like wouldn't allow me to fix it in the system. So I called the number for the promise website. The guy was like, I can't help you because your application is part of Ohm Sauce. So Olmsauce has your application. There's a phone number, but it's an unmanned line. Every once in a while, somebody will answer it. Thanks a lot. That that really is helpful. So it's it's a it's a wild guide. There are other things I could tell about like things that have happened during the process that I was just like, really.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

All right. So once

A Neuro-Affirming Mission For Families

SPEAKER_01 38:04

you get to it, I I saw something on your website that really resonated. So you you communicate. I started craft care because families deserve support that honors who their child is, not who someone else thinks they should become. I'll open that up to you. Talk to us about that. That's that's wonderfully stated. And I and we know from talking to you over these almost two hours that you very much embody that, that that's heartfelt for you. People were very good at throwing around the ascent and the neuro firming, and it's it looks really good on the website. And then people revert to the same old practice that we started with, you know, 50 years ago, which should have progressed by now somehow, whatever that means for any given individual practitioner. So tell us what that means to you. That's a again, really well stated. Want to know more about what that means.

SPEAKER_05 39:01

So, one of my proudest things throughout my career, starting when I was a first-year teacher, has always been that when I finished IEPs, when I finished treatment plans, my families usually in some way, shape, or form will say, Wow, you really knew my kid. And I think that's incredibly important that we as providers really know our clients and know what our families are looking for from services, and that's what we're working on. And we really need to work with the families as well to not just understand what they're looking for, but help them figure out what's appropriate because sometimes you know you go into a situation and the parents are like, I want my kid to graduate from Harvard and they're two years old and they're not speaking, or they're five years old and they're not speaking, and they're not toilet trained, and they're not whatever. And I'm not saying that when they're 18, they might something may change and they may have those skills because anything is possible, and I'm huge on high expectations, not expectations that are too high, but really setting high expectations, but like just setting high realistic expectations with the families and explaining what our service really is, what our service really isn't, what we could potentially work on, uh, and and really doing what's best for the child and their family and the team because everybody really needs to it needs to be for everybody. So that's really where that comes from, and it's something that uh you know I aim for in every single treatment plan that I write, that I get that piece of their child in there so that they know that their child is going to be taken care of.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Very good, very good.

Moving Past Compliance Toward Cooperation

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah, what would you say sort of your pet peeve? So the things that you've seen in your experience in ABA or teaching, some of those things that you know have been relevant historically, even recommended, but you know as part of your philosophy, you're gonna stay away from. Where have we gotten it wrong very clearly? Where you're like, nope, I won't be doing that, I won't be doing that.

SPEAKER_05 42:01

So when I first started, again, Pennsylvania was under a different set of rules, and we really focused on not growing. Like it was you wanted negative data, you didn't want the positive data, you didn't want them to make progress, and pretty much every treatment plan was the same. Increase consent or in increase compliance, decrease non-compliance, increase social skills, decrease negative social behaviors, and like that's literally what they all said. And you know, while I want to make the distinction that yes, I agree and believe in assent-based, but I also we need to be realistic. We have to look at safety and we have to look at the fact that they need to learn no as well. So if it's something that they absolutely cannot do, if it's something that's hurting them, those are the times that we need to take their no. But and there are some people that I've heard recently say that we need to take every no, and it's like I don't know about that. I mean, we don't get to say no to everything. I wish I could say no to some things. There are some things that I don't want to do in my life, but we have to teach them that there are some times and some situations where you just you gotta do what you gotta do. So, but it's a cooperation thing, not a compliance thing. Yeah, and the social skills I get it, parents want their kids to socialize, and I always use There was a young boy who isn't a young man now. He finished his freshman year in high school college. He was incredibly gifted. He was like reading his sixth grade level books in kindergarten and doing algebra in kindergarten. Like super bright child. And he didn't really play with the other kids. He liked to do his own thing. He'd like to sit at recess and read. And his family were very upset by this. He plays sometimes. And there was a TED talk on introverts and how we need introverts because they're the people, and this was pre-COVID, that are gonna work in you know cubicles, and they're gonna be fine working in cubicles and doing what's the the really hard math, like the math math. Calculus no like higher level, like a job, yeah kind of thing. And I said to his parents, I was like, look, I'm an introvert. I it might not seem like it because I'm talking a lot today, but I'm talking about something that I'm passionate about. There are times that I just I don't want to be around people, like he needs to have that choice whether he wants to be around people or not. And he was a valedictorian, he was involved in activities, and they just they they they did, they watched the TED Talk and they were like, Yeah, we get it. Like we do just need to let him kind of come into his own. And I think so many times, like we just push these kids into socializing and doing things that first of all they're not ready for, and second of all, they do things differently, yeah. Like, you know, there's that whole thing about how they play and changing the way they play. Well, so what if they sit and they throw the toys and they go and they pick them up and they throw them again? They're keeping themselves busy, like that, but that's a whole another thing. So those are the kinds of things that I definitely will be doing differently, yeah. Um moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

You you present a nice balance there between this idea of just like negligent over permissiveness in terms of ascent-based approaches, and then the other idea, which is, well, yeah, you can refuse this for me, maybe in this. Well, if it's unsafe, no. It doesn't matter. If you're running into the street and a truck's coming, doesn't matter how much you tell me no, I'm gonna intervene. And then there's the other part of I think you kind of alluded to this. I'm presenting something to you that I can logically and ethically say is in your best interest, the way I see it, like socializing. And then I still we still have to take a step back and realize that that may not be your interest. So how you see and view friends, that's and that's I'm glad you bring that up. That's something that very recently I I was able to put words to and saying, I want these kids to make friends because I think that they need friends. What do they think? You know, what does that mean to them in terms of the quality or value of human interaction? And that's a that's a good question to ask ourselves. Jen,

Rethinking Social Goals And Friendship

SPEAKER_01 47:27

as we promised, time has flown by. Here we are nearing the two-hour mark. You have enlightened us, and again, I failed to mention your AAC part. I didn't know it so readily from your website, but you gave us a wealth, a wealth of information on assistive technology. We're very happy for your journey. We're happy you're getting licensed and credentialed. Excited for you to bring your brand of ABA to Schoolkill County, which we didn't really get to touch the logistics. Maybe we'll have you back to as you experience more of that, because uh one of the things that we're quickly going to admire about you is you're gonna be managing an interesting logistic to get to some of these folks, an interesting balance of how you access them or how you offer your service. So the best of luck with that. Shameless

Where To Find Jennifer Kraft

SPEAKER_01 48:11

self-promotion time.Anywhere you want people to find you or maybe not find you, I'll pass it over to you.

SPEAKER_05 48:18

Well, first of all, I just want to say balance is a great word. I'm glad you said that. We are craftedcareaba.com on Instagram at craft it careaba. That's the best way to do it. And it's craft it with a K. My name is Kraft. I am not related to the macaroni and cheese people, and my dad was Robert Kraft, but he is not the Robert Kraft of So I always have to say that as well. And by the way, Kraft is trademarked, so I have had to fight to get my name on things at some time, at some point. I'm like, no, it is my name.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

It's the craft did. You've had to put the E D in there, you've gotten what you've gotten sad.

SPEAKER_05 49:05

But like when it's just craft, I have to like prove that I am myself and that my name is Jen Craft. So, but that's where we are. And anybody that ever wants to talk about any of this stuff, I am more than willing to talk about it. And if you're in a school county or around it around here and you're looking for a job, hit me up because we probably will be hiring.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Excellent. Excellent. Well, I

Final Takeaways And Sign Off

SPEAKER_01 49:30

like to pick up the gems that our guests drop along the way as we segue into our tagline in closing here. What I've got is it's never too early to augment or assist communication, low tech or high tech, it's all meant to help. Allow your clients to become who they are, not who you think they should be. And always analyze responsibly. Cheers, Jen. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_05 49:56

Thank you. Always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered. We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. See you next time.