Redefining Wealth: Emotional Intelligence, Values-Driven Investing, and the Pursuit of Joy

Embark on a transformative exploration of what it truly means to be wealthy with our guest  Michael Sakraida, an esteemed author and sharp critic of the wealth management industry. 

This episode promises a journey beyond the bank account, into the realms of time richness, social wealth, and the joy that comes from a life well-lived. Mike's insights will challenge your preconceptions, illustrating that managing your money is simpler than you think and that guidance can be a beacon through the fog of financial decisions. With stories and strategies drawn from his book, "Money, Balance, Joy - Improving Your Life Story," we delve into a conversation that will have you rethinking the ultimate purpose of wealth in your life.

Discover the power of emotional intelligence in wealth management and why it might just be the secret ingredient to financial success. We tackle the often unspoken truth about how greed, fear, and hope drive our investment choices, and how tapping into the calmness of admired CEOs can help develop the emotional resilience necessary for true wealth. Mike and I share anecdotes and insights on the impact of emotions on our finances, and why learning to master them can be just as crucial as any investment strategy. 

Let's redefine investing with a conscience, as we weave through the interplay of personal values and financial decisions, debunking the myth that ethical investments equate to weak returns. As we converse, Mike and I shed light on how a values-driven approach to investing can lead to both a stable portfolio and a sense of fulfillment that withstands market turbulence. We also celebrate leadership that embodies genuineness and shares the benefits of diverse experiences. By the end of this dialogue, you’ll have uncovered a new perspective on shaping your financial future, one that holds joy and balance as the paramount treasures to seek.

Go to moneybalancejoy.com for more on the Money, Balance, Joy approach and the book, email  mike.s@moneybalancejoy.com to ask questions, arrange a company consulting conversation, or arrange a media-based interview, and follow Mike on Instagram @sakraidam for daily thought-provoking postings on money, balance, joy.

Connect with Michael Sakraida:
https://www.instagram.com/sakraidam/
https://www.moneybalancejoy.com/
mike.s@moneybalancejoy.com

Watch the full video episode at Justin Wenck, Ph.D. YouTube Channel!

Check out my best-selling book "Engineered to Love: Going Beyond Success to Fulfillment" also available on Audiobook on all streaming platforms! Go to https://www.engineeredtolove.com/ to learn more!

Got a question or comment about the show? E-mail me at podcast@justinwenck.com.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, welcome. Today we're going to be talking about money balance, joy and how it can be in your life and your workplace and really anywhere that you are, because why wouldn't you want to have all of these amazing things? And to help me talk about that, I've got Michael here, who's helped well over 10,000 individuals and financial advisors have more fulfilling lives filled with that money balance and joy. He's done this both inside and outside of the financial services industry. On the inside, mike has had senior sales manager roles. On the outside, he's an author, coach, consultant and full-time critic of most of the wealth management industry.

Speaker 1: 0:38

Mike's book is titled Money Balance Joy Improving your Life Story. You can get it on Amazon. We'll make sure to have links, but you can also find more information about it at moneybalancejoycom. So this book, it's a launchpad to. Basically, he wants to help millions of people improve their life stories. So welcome to the show, mike. So good to have you here from over in New York state. So this is a coast to coast episode of Engineering, emotions and Energy. So welcome. And I don't know maybe if you want to just start with like why, why did you write the book? Because, as you know another fellow author. It's not the easiest thing in the world to do. It's you. You got to feel like there's something important to go through the process of writing a book.

Speaker 2: 1:19

So absolutely Just so. So glad you reached out or your assistant reached out to me to be on the podcast, read your book Engineered to Love and could see why you would be attracted to my book and talking with me because there's a lot of similar views but different approach. So with the book I kind of felt that it took 30 years or so of work to get to the point where I could put it in all that I knew, all that I've seen and helped people with and they've helped me with that. Now I could put it in a concise, useful guide so people can be on a journey rather than just throw a lot of information out to them and to me.

Speaker 2: 2:19

A self-help book that all it does is have people feel good that they read it but really doesn't affect change is just entertainment. So it took a lot of years and practice, if you will, with the messaging, to be able to come up with the book. And yes, it's very difficult and I have typically been very good with ideas and writing and I remember the first draft I put together gave it to some friends who in the industry, in the financial services industry, and lost them and so I redid the whole book, rewrote the whole book and still had some people who came back to me more stories, more this, less that You're still losing me in this particular area. Uh, somebody I can't remember said if you want me to give a five minute speech, it'll take me a week to prepare. You want me to give a five minute speech? I could start right now something.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Yeah yeah, yeah, I've done toastmasters, which you, you, you, mentioned in the book. You know it's like toastmastersmasters can be part of that joyful life, you know, if that's what you want to do. But yeah, the five minutes is way more challenging than if you have an hour.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Yeah, exactly, and so the book is like that when you think about it. It's, you know, having that, giving that five minute speech versus giving that, you know.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Yeah, because it is, to the point, easy to read and it's, you know, some big concepts that I think a lot of people might not, you know, have figured out, like I think most people think like, well, the point of life is money and money's complicated, hard, challenging, and it's so, yeah, it's got to be so hard, and you kind of blow that out of the water, that it's like no, the point of life is not money and, uh, there's, there's actually a whole lot more, and money's kind of a tool or it's one aspect, and that this whole industry doesn't have to be as complicated, maybe, as it is like that it can be a lot simpler and it's a whole lot easier if you have somebody to work with and you don't just do it on your own.

Speaker 2: 4:49

Yeah, it's it. You know, the funny thing is I was very fortunate, uh, where I grew up and my father was a businessman, lived in a relatively wealthy community, uh, belonged to a beach club. So a lot of times sitting around with the older members of the club and there's certain things I would see and hear from them. First, they were all relaxed, they were all happy. There wasn't that person who was chain-sloping by members of this club.

Speaker 1: 5:25

I'm this is like kind of an exclusive high-end people of high net worth of means is that?

Speaker 2: 5:30

yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:32

So they okay, because you know there's, there might be some listeners that are like they because, like until I moved to sacros, uh, the san francisco area, and started like having some, some friends that you know had done well in tech and stuff, like I didn't know there was such a thing as private clubs type of a thing. I grew up in suburbs and there was no such thing. It was just like, oh yeah, the pool or whatever. So I'm with you. I just want to make sure our listeners are with me.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Yeah, one of our members was a soap opera star, but the thing I would see and hear from my parents is that total wealth approach, that holistic approach of, yes, having the monetary wealth but also the time wealth and the social wealth, and that it helps you. It's the same reason why some companies insist that people take two-week vacations once a year to decompress, get out and sharpen the axe blade. But it's the same thing that, no, if all you do is focus on money, you're actually going to make less money.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Then you need to have time to yourself, wealthy enough you could live in that neighborhood, join the club and be exposed to people and ideas, so that would help your monetary wealth. And it was an interesting town because we had a lot of famous people come out of it. Jerry Seinfeld Brian Setzer was in my class oh, wow, we had infamous people. You know mafia people that were in the newspapers. I told you this the soap opera, star TV weather. You know big TV weatherman, all these different people. You know big tv weatherman, all these different people. So they the. And you know alec baldwin and all these other people came out of.

Speaker 2: 7:54

You know many, many people, uh, you know, speaking of authors. Uh, the author born on the fourth of july, you know. So it was interesting kind of town where you had that feeling well, you know that these people could do it. Why can't I do it? Versus, oh, I can never be success. You know very different attitude. You know not, oh, these people have something secret or something really great and so I'll never be successful. And and where I grew up it was well, these people are successful, why can't I be successful?

Speaker 1: 8:34

Yeah, and some people do. They have advantage in some ways. One of the advantages I think you're pointing out is this sort of this attitude of money and how it fits into the whole life and in some ways, I feel like that's maybe like the bit of the point of your book is to give that advantage to as many people as possible. It's like you can have this attitude too, even if maybe you weren't born into it, but you can have this as part of the relationship and then it will lead to the numbers going also, you know the joy and the balance and the other things. Um, and let's see the concept. What do you call the concept? It's like your total, total life wealth but total wealth or total wealth yeah it's so.

Speaker 2: 9:16

you know so much of your book and and success you talk to a lot of successful people is is about giving back. It's not me, me, me, it's. You know I want to help people. I want to, you know. You look at Steve Jobs. You know I want to change the world. You know he went to Scully who was the head of Pepsi, I think you know, do you want to just continue selling soda water or sugar water or do you want to change the world? And so love the stories, because I would help advisors get out to clients and prospects with this emotions-based approach to wealth management. Approach to wealth management, this total wealth approach and the responses they got universal, of people coming to them like this, is so intuitive. This makes so much sense. I wish I knew this 20 years ago. You've changed my life and that's so cool and I could do over 10,000. They are what, what they can do, and it's the same thing with your book, my book, any of these type of, you know, self-awareness journeys, you know holistic life improvement journeys, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Book helps you do that. It's part. It's definitely also an emotional journey and kind of what you're, what you're saying is uh, reminding me that so much of uh, financial, I don't know richness, wealth that, from what I've noticed, often correlates to sort of emotional resiliency or the ability to handle emotions and ups and downs and things like that. In fact, I think I just about to like re-release a podcast on my YouTube channel. It was called like be the undercover CEO of your. Be the undercover boss of your life. That's basically like act like your whole life. You're the CEO in that.

Speaker 1: 11:42

You know I've had the chance to see, you know, a number of CEOs in action. Like the one thing I'd say is like they never really get all that upset almost about anything. They're just kind of like take stuff in and consider and then decide and then move forward. And you know there's whereas I think back to when I was younger, it's like the smallest thing and I would freak the fuck out and be like, oh my gosh. And you know, now it's where it's. I'm just like, well, okay, let me breathe into that, let me take some time. Like how does it? You know it's still making decisions, but it's just like this wealth of being able to deal with emotions and just life has correlated with the financial numbers. I'm curious if you know, you found that or see that and that's one of the things that somebody can help you with is the emotions. That's really the thing. That's the real currency in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2: 12:29

Yeah, I mean there's three key emotions with investing that even many financial professionals fall for, or two that they fall for, and one that they don't subscribe to or work with it. And I remember when I was starting to talk about this to some financial advisors, they're like thinking, oh, this is only individuals that do this. Surely I don't do that and surely you know all these brilliant people. So you look at the Great Recession where the mortgage crisis happened, the Great Recession where the mortgage crisis happened, and if all these people didn't fall for the greed emotion and AIG with insuring these bonds that never should have been insured, they looked at it as, wow, this is just free money for us. We'll never have to pay out these big investment banking firms.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Part of in my book, I call it the financial industrial complex. You know, oh, we're greedy. We're greedy and look what happened Bear Stearns went out of business, AIG had to be bailed out, Salomon Brothers went out of business and banks that had to be bought by other banks. Jamie Dimon was contacted when all this was hitting the fan and, oh, you have to buy this big mortgage company. He didn't want to do it and he's like no way, I was smart, I kept a cool head. I didn't get greedy and we did really well, so guess what happens.

Speaker 1: 14:15

He's forced into it, just like all these had to be the adult, I guess, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:17

And all these banks had to take money, though they didn't need it, because then all the banks got the money. And what was the reward? Well then, jamie Dimon and Chase had to pay all billions of dollars for the sins of the greed of the company they acquired.

Speaker 2: 14:41

And it was like anyway, but that's you know. So you have the greed, you have the fear. So what happens? The markets go down. For some people it's only 10% down, other people 20, 30, 40%. All of a sudden it's sell, sell, sell and it might go down more, it might go down to zero, and you get this focus on possibility instead of probability, and anything's possible, but it's not probable. And so people get out. And then what happens? They sit on the money, sit in money sit in cash.

Speaker 2: 15:21

They locked in the loss yeah, they locked in the loss. They're now sitting on the cash. Many, many financial advisors, many financial institutions did this, and so what they do they? They want to make sure first, is this a? Is this a dead cat bounce? The market starts going back up and in my book I talk about-.

Speaker 1: 15:43

Some people listening might not know, but a lot of the financial institutions actually get into black magic where they will sacrifice a cat and then they will drop it and see if it bounces. And if it bounces, it's kind of like Poxitani Phil, where if he sees a shadow of a cat, the dead cat bounces. That means that the economy is going back up and then they'll invest in.

Speaker 2: 16:04

That's how this is actually done.

Speaker 1: 16:07

No, that's not what that means at all.

Speaker 2: 16:11

No. So what happens is they're like well, if you drop a dead cat off a building, it's going to bounce up, it doesn't mean the cat's alive, right? I think that's is that the no, I said dead cat.

Speaker 1: 16:23

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, just because it bounced doesn't mean it's actually getting up to walk around. It's like no, it's going to go, it's going back down again because that cat yeah. Don't. Cats have nine lives.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Well, you kill it before you throw it off, or you find a dead cat. Okay, so you don't kill it. You find a dead cat already.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Please, nobody go and kill a cat and try this. We are not endorsing or condoning anything. I like cats.

Speaker 2: 16:55

They should be alive, but this is just a metaphor that we're having fun with. Okay, cats should be alive, but this is just a metaphor that we're having fun with. So there's a delay, so people wait, including professionals. Well, it might go back down again or it might really go down. Think in the Great Depression, stocks went down. They came up a little bit and then really went down. So everyone is afraid of that, and so they sit on the sidelines so say there's a 40% drop in the average stock.

Speaker 2: 17:30

Yeah, yeah. And the funny thing about that scenario with investing in stocks it's the only consumer good that no one wants to buy at a steep discount.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Well, except for me.

Speaker 2: 17:46

I love that something goes down, yeah, but the average person yeah, I know.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Well, what's wrong with it? It's down 40% and instead of looking at it like, oh man, this is a bargain and I'm going to snap it up and I'm going to increase my equity exposure, take money out of bonds or just reserves I have and put it into these discounted stocks. You do it with tvs. You do it with clothes. Hey, there's a big sale. Everyone runs and and buys it. Big sale on stocks, not so much. So you know. So you have those, those two fears, and there's studies on it that I mentioned in my book that show if you just stay in the markets yeah, we have what, uh, over 100 years of data now to show that it eventually goes way up.

Speaker 1: 18:45

You're going to come out ahead.

Speaker 2: 18:46

You got to be diversified and you can't just be in tech stocks, because whatever recession, it was Don't try to get the needle in the haystack, just buy the haystack.

Speaker 2: 18:59

Yeah, just buy everything. And so the other trick and this is kind of the secret sauce when you think about it, like so many people want to know what are the super wealthy people do? Well, if you're super wealthy and I used to work with super wealthy clients, some of them household names, and they had so much wealth that they didn't care if the market went down and they saw it as a buying opportunity. They didn't panic and they didn't get greedy, because making up See what happens is it becomes this vicious cycle. So you sell when it's down and you usually don't buy until it's back up to when the market was, you know, before the market plummeted.

Speaker 1: 19:50

You want to know what's going up, and by the time you know what's going up, it's yeah, you've missed out on some good gains.

Speaker 2: 19:55

So I really want to make sure that this stock is, you know, so you missed. You know, 40%. Actually, with math, the gain is higher than the decline, so it's gone up. Whatever. The math is 60% or something like that. And okay, now I'm going to get into the market. So now you realize, oh, I missed out. So what do you do? You become super aggressive. I got to make up for those lost gains. And then, when the market's doing really strong, people confuse a bull market for brains and they buy or increase their risk. Whatever it is. They buy or increase their risk whatever it is. Think of buying something like Bitcoin-ish like, but not Bitcoin, and so something that you know and usually what they do is they're chasing past performance.

Speaker 2: 20:57

So you know, this company did really well last year or this sector did really well, sector being, say, tech or consumer goods, consumer non-durables. This sector did really well last year. So now I'm going to go in to that.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Yeah and go big and miss out on yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:11

Yeah, the problem with that is just because it was number one this year, last year it doesn't. If anything, it's probably going to drop down in the middle of the pack. So, people, because they made the mistake based on fear, they try to make up for it and they get greedier and here's what happens. You got to look at it this way. Think of it as card counting and so legally you're allowed to do card counting with investing. So when poker card counting, you know OK, I know which cards have already been played the odds of there's only one queen left or one ace or something like that, or a lot of the small numbers are gone. So the odds are. The odds are better. Yeah, the odds are better, and it's a game of odds. So it's kind of the same thing. If the market's been going up and going up and going up, the cart counter would look at that and say, all right, the odds are greater that it's going to go down.

Speaker 2: 22:17

Then it's going to go down 20, then it's going to, you know, go down 20, then can go up 20, yeah, not a certainty. So what do they do? They're increasing their exposure, their risk, at the point we have the greatest chance of going down. So now you, you're in the fear mode, you sell, yeah it's a vicious cycle to the bottom really yeah so.

Speaker 2: 22:42

So you, you sell what happened, you reduce your exposure, your risk at the point where you have the greatest chance of gain. Yeah, so if you look at it like card counting it's, it's a little less falling for that emotion. Now, the real key thing that a lot of people miss, even the people that are able to eliminate fear and greed or sideline it is the more you view your investments as an extension of who you are as a person, your values, the less and instead of just looking at it as a jumble of investments, the less you're going to get upset during, you know, those market extremes.

Speaker 1: 23:29

And this is, and this is would be investing, uh, into things that are in line with your, your values, right? That are things that are contributing towards a world you want to live in, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:40

So it's yeah. So the two main ones one's the kind of sustainability, think environment, think of how you handle your employees, how you handle the environment, all that stuff. And then the other is the faith-based, and I've kind of beat my head against the wall with the faith-based, a lot in the faith-based industry and a lot in what they call ESG environment, social and governance, because they want to change people. They're on this mission and I was like no, you're trying to rechannel money for the good of the country, for the good of people's faith and souls. You have to appeal. With each of those two things you can appeal to all three types of people. You have the aware people who already know about it.

Speaker 2: 24:42

People who already know about it love the investments. You have the unaware, who don't know about it, but when they hear about, they're like, hey, that's perfect, that really fits my values, what I want. And then you have the I don't care people, and they may not have the faith, they may not believe there's such a thing as climate change, but there's still common values that they have yeah, and it could just be something like I, I like trees, I want trees to be there, I want them to exist.

Speaker 1: 25:10

So whatever that might be, companies that are not harming trees or doing stuff to reforest or do things in sustainable ways yeah, there might be a bunch of other stuff where it's like, yeah, I'm neither here nor there, but yeah, this type of thing, I'm in it.

Speaker 2: 25:28

I had a firm, a company I was trying to help in the sustainable thing. The CEO said well, if you ever go to an advisor's office and he has a Trump sign in front, this is back when 2016, don't even go in, they're not. And I was like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. And so it was funny, an advisor knew nothing about this kind of investing. It's funny an advisor knew nothing about this kind of investing. Very conservative part of California and which I think you mentioned in your book that there are parts, yeah, a lot of people think like, oh, california is just all super blue.

Speaker 1: 26:10

It's like, no, it's just, it's average. But average is average doesn't mean all of it. Yeah, there's some, there's some trump counties and well, there's some other places that's like oh, this isn't democrat enough and it's, it's a whole spectrum yeah yes, all the people here so this group.

Speaker 2: 26:28

So she said could you come in, fly out here and kind of train me, train my uh clients on what this is? Yeah, and she's thinking I'm just going to talk about, oh, what it does and you know, so great for the planet, this and that. And instead I said this is showed how it's great for them. Yeah, I think the youngest was 70 to 85, all Republicans.

Speaker 2: 27:00

And after I get, I don't know, two days later or something like that, I get a phone call from the advisors like, oh, thank you so much, they all want to switch to this.

Speaker 2: 27:11

And another advisor I got in Georgia would automatically that was their plan for each client and they would have that really in-depth conversation that I have in my book where the client or the prospect does 90-some percent of the talking, versus your typical first advisor meeting where the advisor is doing 90, 95% of the talking. And again and then with the exercises throughout, my book helps you really have that self-awareness and really understand yourself in terms of money means to you what emotions come into play, what your not only your financial goals are, but your non-financial goals. Kind of think of what non-financial legacy do you want to leave your children in the world and grandchildren. And they had those kind of meetings with their new clients, then said, all right, unless you tell me otherwise, here's how we're going to invest it in this type of program and explained it to them, bill, you said this is important to you. So, and then again the the benefit of this now is you're looking at this as an extension of you.

Speaker 1: 28:37

You're going to be able to sleep at night right because it's like I don't want to sell out of this, these companies that are, you know, helping to create the world that I want to live in for myself and children and all the other people. So it's like, all right, let's, let's ride through the tough time like this. This matters, this means something to me.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Right, like yeah yeah, if it's just if it's just about money and it's like, oh, I don't think that this is bringing me money, then it's like, yeah, it makes it easy to just cut and run. But when it's like, no, this is this matters, this is something that is part of who I am, or what, what I believe in, and it's like I'm going to stick through this and, you know, ride out the rough patch and like, see it through right and and even the people who wrote it out.

Speaker 2: 29:19

This enabled them. A lot of people wrote it out, but they're like, okay, okay first, the first time through a rough patch is always the hardest.

Speaker 2: 29:28

I guess, yeah, and you know and it's and a lot of advisors they're like oh well, he took a test and I've taken those. I don't agree with the results sometimes, but you know, and he's an aggressive investor, basically in the book I review this three types, you know conservative, moderate, aggressive. And he's aggressive Now. The market, a lot of stuff's going on right now, something geopolitical, something with, you know, just the economy, with inflation, say, or something the advisor's like. Well, he's an aggressive person.

Speaker 2: 30:05

now I won't talk to him reach out to him, and so these people, you know it's kind of yeah, well, we can all be different ways at different times, depending depending on what's going on, like you know just because, yeah, in theory I'm aggressive, but then when shit goes down, it's like all of a sudden I might wait, now I want to get.

Speaker 1: 30:27

And doesn't mean that I should get more conservative with my, my tactics. It just means I probably need to talk to somebody and get you know. You know, just to handle the emotional part of it Right and just like, well, it's okay, stay the course, like remember, here's what we talked about, right? Because I mean, that's sort of what the other working with other humans is all about is sort of like, hey, remember we talked about this.

Speaker 2: 30:51

This is the time and it's going to be hard, but it's going to be okay, okay, yeah, most emotional things that we have don't come with alarm bells or warning labels and we will fall into something, whether it's depression, whether you know it's. It's like this the, the frog and the slowly you know or yeah, the, yeah, the slowly boiled frog where?

Speaker 1: 31:19

yeah, so we're all frog into boiling water, jumps out. But if it's you know, it's nice lukewarm. It's a little frog jacuzzi gonna hang out and then wait a minute yeah frog we find ourselves.

Speaker 2: 31:31

You know everyone thinks, oh, it's something's gonna. You know that gets me upset, or something that it it's the hot water, that everything's fine except for this one thing, and it's cumulative, and it's the old, the straw that broke the camel's back. You see it all around and this is the thing. If all my book was about was helping people be wealthier, wouldn't have interested me as much. But there's a huge, huge need right now for the balance and the joy part for people, and we're seeing it all around. And COVID didn't cause it, covid just brought it out more. You hear the saying crisis doesn't build character.

Speaker 1: 32:18

It reveals it.

Speaker 2: 32:21

It reveals character. So, if it, if, if we're going to do like in a positive, well, guess what Crisis doesn't reveal on? It doesn't cause unhappiness, doesn't cause anxieties, it reveals them.

Speaker 1: 32:37

Yeah, and so, and that's a good thing. It's actually a good thing, because then you can do something about it.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Yeah, exactly, and one of the things I talk about in the book is that a lot of people think, oh well, you're really intelligent if you learn from your mistakes, and but you're really brilliant if you learn from other people's mistakes.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Yeah, that's one of the things that makes humans amazing is we don't have to make all these mistakes ourselves. Yeah, we can learn through others.

Speaker 2: 33:12

You learn from other people's mistakes. And so when the COVID again started revealing issues, the whole bifurcation of the economy where you have all these very wealthy people who made even more money from COVID and all these, the other half who suffered. But the problem is everything with government, with businesses, it's all run by the elites and they don't feel the pain of inflation, so they think oh everything's good. The stock market's going well. Our profits are up.

Speaker 1: 33:53

I mean, it's a banana's, what Like $18,. So what yeah?

Speaker 2: 33:58

No, that's three bananas, don't exaggerate, but no, but this problem when I was a kid, I remember my father telling me that he said be very aware of the average worker and the stress on them, and you know being able to pay for things and you know send their kids to college and everything else, that you can't just be in this ivory tower where we lived, and I remember we used to go into the city and see how people lived and you know all intention, great purpose, it wasn't oh, look at them. You know not be judgmental, not be oh, that they have some kind of character flaw. You know stress and emotional issues and poverty and all just trying to keep up, uh, for your family is, yeah, I think it's, I think it's not no, yeah, it's just, it's just a lot of.

Speaker 1: 35:05

It is just people having had different opportunities, different experiences, and I don't I think I saw, you know, one explanation of how a lot of life is.

Speaker 1: 35:14

It's like, if you look at it as a, as a, as a race, which I think is an unfortunate analogy for how our society is set up, where it's, you know, you're racing to have the most money, you know, even though I think, like we've discussed, it's like there's joy and balance are the other aspects, but unfortunately, I think most people only care about the money part.

Speaker 1: 35:34

But it's like not everybody's starting at the same starting line, like some people are starting like almost practically at the quote, unquote finish, and then other people are given like a, you know, a two year penalty before they can even start running, and and I think, yeah, it's important to have that awareness that it's like, yeah, it's not a, it's not a fair race and the to me, more and more, and I think this is why the value is investing.

Speaker 1: 35:58

And then other stuff is a lot of people I feel like in the past have been like I want to change the world, I want to, I want to disrupt things, and I'm like lately, I'm like no, that's not good enough anymore, that's that's lazy, that's like that's 50 years. How do you want to change the world? And then, like you know, do you want to disrupt it, to improve. You know it's like you can't just do things in a vacuum anymore. I think it has to be holistically, not just you know personally, but I think in our society as well, as, like you know, what are the bigger implications of almost anything?

Speaker 2: 36:30

Yeah, and I just see this increased with COVID again revealing not causing, then revealing not causing and inflation, revealing not causing. A lot of just unhappiness, feeling of isolation, and I have a whole chapter on this in my book that there's a built-in desire for all humans except sociopaths and we can't live our life worrying about how sociopaths approach the world but they're, I mean, they're the ones, they're the ones running it anyway, so they're fine, um yeah, but you know that there's just just this kind of a joke, but not a joke, but yeah, there's a disproportionate number of sociopaths supposedly in positions of power, according to some studies.

Speaker 2: 37:17

Yeah but, but there? But there's this hunger for fulfilling meaningful lives, there's this hunger for community.

Speaker 1: 37:26

Let me ask you maybe this will be like the final question and I'll give you some is like what would be, you know, if you could have your magic wand and sort of create an ideal? I don't know, is it economy or world or or just, or just, what's the ideal experience for the average person? What would you like that to be for them? And I think this is a little bit where you're going, but I kind of want to you just put it, put it in that context and maybe let you, let you go.

Speaker 2: 37:51

I'm curious what the yeah, I mean the, the leaders, the, the political leaders, the corporate leaders, uh, the education leaders at all levels of kind of having this holistic's certain must-haves with everything. You know how you work with people, how you treat them with respect, how you don't take advantage of them, that you don't manipulate them. You know same with your staff. And you know I have a really good story speaking of sociopaths in my introduction. A really good story speaking of sociopaths in my introduction. And to really have this different approach and not, you know, tribal thing that we've gone into. And I was really hoping and yes, it was naive of me that when COVID hit there'd be less of this whole tribalism and us against them working together with different views, different perceptions, if you will, for the whatever the common good, whether it's economic common good or a company's common good or our country's common good, and it just again it revealed. So unfortunately I didn't follow my own advice, my own understanding.

Speaker 1: 39:29

You're talking about the 2008 financial crisis and you know that some of the people that you know saw that coming. It might have been before we started recording, and I think you're just talking about how, uh, they were right. Just the the timing was a little bit different than they had expected and I, uh, I'm talking about the whole us versus them, tribalism. Well, that going away and I yeah I like to think that you're you're right that it will go away, just maybe the the timing isn't quite what you or maybe I would, but I'm optimistic that it's happening yeah, so we need to the end of tribalism.

Speaker 1: 40:05

I want to be clear that not that like, yeah, let's go into tribes and start doing it Although that could be. Another type of values-based investing is the Mad Max type of value investing, where it's like you only want to invest in drugs, guns and tobacco and nothing else and just fully trying to rush in the dystopian hellscape. That would be the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 40:30

It's interesting that and I put it in the book that if you look at the top performing stocks, I forget what number the top 50 performing stocks over 30 years.

Speaker 1: 40:43

I can't remember like none none of them are quote unquote sin type. Yeah, they were right, and only like two or two of those types are in the s&p 500 at all. I think is what was in the. Yes, it's like out of the 500, only two companies have anything to do with alcohol or tobacco or something remotely and they're not the big movers and shakers.

Speaker 2: 41:03

But it's hysterical that you'll have these people that, for purposes of investing, are flat earthers. Let's call them that these people are like. Well, if you're excluding stocks, you're going to hurt performance, and then you show them the performance. There's a great MSCI.

Speaker 1: 41:24

There's all these indices with MSCI is similar to S&P or Dow. It's one of these types of things.

Speaker 2: 41:31

So they do the socially conscious stocks. They have an index against the other and it's apples to apples.

Speaker 1: 41:41

comparison shows an advantage yeah, so you can feel good and make money you can have. You can have it all. You can have your cake and eat it too. Like it's not, like yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I like to turn up the contrast on stuff like this, where it's like um, it's like if all you cared about was money I've seen all the john wick movies that looks like it's you know pretty good lifestyle and a lot of money and plush and like so just go, just go into the hitman business. And then most people go like what? No, I would never. And it's like okay, and so there's, there's a limit to how you would make your money so why?

Speaker 2: 42:17

yeah, if you want to be soulless and you know who do people gravitate to you, usually that person who cares about other people, who has a balanced life, who has different interests. You know there's a great book called range I read recently that says, if you look at all the Nobel Prize winners, that you know X percentage of them also play an instrument and that you know the Serena, venus Williams. When they were kids, their father didn't have them only play tennis. Father didn't have them only play tennis. Right, he had them play other sports. Yeah, you know the variety and because he one, he felt that if they only played tennis they would burn out. Two, if they only played tennis they wouldn't have been as good as they became. Clearly right, how great they became with because they did all these other sports and, you know, developed their muscles differently.

Speaker 2: 43:27

You know their kind of instincts uh everything else and now that's kind of accepted, normal stuff. But but back then you know, he really was a genius with that and he probably had no science behind it, it just was intuitive. And so much of what I talk about in the book is just that. Yes, I back it up with studies and science and all that. But I also have lots of quotes from philosophers, the Dalai Lama, poets and other people who you know, kind of had that, that grasp, and it's really interesting. You know, what we want is the person. You know, whoever we're having helping us with, whatever that might be, whether it's a financial advisor, whether it's a therapist, whatever. We want the person who just does it and makes it look easy, and a top rock star, top guitars, you know, pick any of them.

Speaker 1: 44:41

Eddie Van Halen there.

Speaker 2: 44:43

Eddie Van Halen isn't like, oh, I'm the greatest and look, look what I was able to do, look what I'm able to do. He just, he just did it.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Yeah, he's, he's just doing. He is aware he's pretty good, but yeah, he's, yeah and they leave it up to other people to.

Speaker 2: 45:03

They're so confident in their ability in this case to entertain, their ability to help somebody, and they just do it. That's the type of person that you want, and the same thing with a boss or something. Rather than look at me, look at me, I'm so great, you know I'm really brilliant and just just do it and it's it's.

Speaker 1: 45:28

They're doing their thing, there's, there's. They're given their gift. They're serving the world with what they do. Yeah, and that's what that's what I want to be doing and that's what I. I want to be around people. That's kind of what they're they're doing and I feel like that's that's kind of what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 45:45

You're like you're doing what you're doing, you know to benefit whoever can benefit, like yeah, I mean it's, I forget, I think yeah, he, pete seger, used to live around where I live and actually I was on the train with him, you know, years before he died, and he was sitting a couple seats behind me and he was as nice in real life as one would think he would be. But someone had interviewed him and said do you think all your protesting and all your singing songs about different things have have really made a difference? That really improves the world? And his response was I don't know, but I've met the nicest people and you know he just had such a more enjoyable life. And you know people I saw something recently.

Speaker 2: 46:46

Study was done. You know people right before they died, uh, were asked you know what regrets and you know the cliche is of course it's not working. Uh, you know it's not them saying I wish I worked more or anything like that, but yeah, it's, it's things like I wish I communicated better, you know, showed my love more with my family and my appreciation, experience, the this in the world, or try this, this challenge, or yeah and yeah, and there's this whole, a lot of religions have this.

Speaker 2: 47:22

Um, you know, I read a book by the dalai lama. He had this is that? Uh, you know there's that at the end of your life, right before you go, there's this kind of total illumination that you know. There's a famous story of a person in New York City, a young lady who stepped on a manhole cover that was electrified and she was electrocuted. And the first thing she the thing she says oh, I see, now I understand something like that. She says, oh, I see, now I understand Something like that. So there's that kind of whole philosophy or certain religions about that. And so you know, let's learn from. You know, the ultimate thing we're all afraid of and's that's death, and that if all these people this is what they wished for, then you know again, learn from other people's mistakes and yeah, so we can have that maximize the, the joy possibility, maximize the balance.

Speaker 1: 48:36

You know more fulfilling more, more benevolent uh, you know, kind of the zen again yeah, I think one thing I'll add is yeah, just just because you're not having any of that doesn't mean other people are getting more. It's like I can have more mike, you can have more, anyone listening can have more of that, and just means there's more of it. It's it's not like you know, if I'm having a good, good life, it takes away from your good life. It doesn't have to mean that there's some people that do believe that. Um, but I don't think it's true.

Speaker 2: 49:05

I think that we can all be living the the joyful, balanced, financially wealthy life, and it doesn't have to, especially now more than ever, doesn't have to take away from anybody yeah, it's you know kind of this we, we've gone to this hunger games view of everything and yeah, you can only get you know some german word for you know, jordan freuda, yeah, that one, that basically you know you get pleasure from other people's pain.

Speaker 2: 49:32

That's what shot, yeah and you know they have words for everything. But you know, it's kind of this, this view people have and this, this well, I don't want to be taken advantage of. Yeah Well, you know what To really have a great, wonderful life. There is some vulnerability. There is some vulnerability. Uh, there is you. You have to put yourself out there.

Speaker 1: 50:05

Uh, you know your book, my book, both of us same thing showing our vulnerability, showing our mistake, showing yeah, yeah, if you don't, if you don't step into the arena, you don't get to enjoy the thrill of, uh, of, of the battle, the thrill of the, the thrill of the possibility of victory. You know, I try. Lately I'm like I want to find more like non-violent uh, euphemisms for things like that. So it's something I continually work, but sometimes they're just like the best or it's like, yeah, it doesn't have to be about fighting, but you know, for this it's that's all I got.

Speaker 2: 50:36

But but you know, there's, there's that. Oh, I can't, can't be weak, I can't be worried about other people, because this happened to me once. Well, get over it.

Speaker 1: 50:49

But I'll bring it full circle to your. It's like when you're dead you're not going to be worried about any of that stuff. So it's like you might as well skip and not worry about it now and get all of the joy and the pleasure that's possible because you didn't worry about it instead of waiting till it's all over and you're not going to worry about it anyway, but you also don't get to experience the good stuff because it's the end. So might as well end all the worry now and start the joy job.

Speaker 2: 51:15

And also one of the great life lessons I learned, I put in the book and it took me forever to really understand it and follow it is you can't change people, but you can change how you interact with them. You can change. You know so many people, whether it's family members or friends. Well, you know, they never call me. So, yeah, I'm going to wait until they call me. And the person never calls them, it's like, well, do you enjoy that person? Do you? When you're with them, do you get stuff out of it? Well, guess what?

Speaker 1: 51:49

then you contact them and and if not, then don't, and be grateful that you're not having to put all this time into something you don't get any joy, yeah, it's yeah it's really what are you putting in? What are you getting out and take? Yeah, if you want something, look in the mirror. That's the person who's best going to be able to give it to you. I yeah and accept the things you cannot change, which, like you said, is other other people. So I love it.

Speaker 1: 52:13

I think that could be something good to end on. Is there any last words or anything you want to end with?

Speaker 2: 52:24

Just my book. It's a journey and they're like most things in life you know happiness, joy. It's not a destination and you can't look at it that way. It's once you get on that journey which I equip people to do. So first is self awareness helping people with their self awareness, helping them with the moving parts, things like you know the emotions and doing all that and then getting them on their way. And then getting them on their way, having exercises at the end of it. And the great thing with this approach and certainly you know this very well is that once you start on the path, you're immediately going to feel better. Yeah, sometimes just starting is the hardest part.

Speaker 1: 53:23

But you don't have to start alone and you don't have to go on the journey alone. There's lots of people like me and Mike and plenty out there, and I definitely do recommend the book. It's a real easy read and you know so, especially if you're thinking of getting a financial advisor or have one, but you're not sure if you're getting the value out of it, Cause you know so, especially if you're thinking of getting a financial advisor or have one, but you're not sure if you're getting the value out of it, Cause well, I think one of the big things is it's they prevent you from making the really big mistakes. People are always like wanting to get the most, and it's. Sometimes it's about like not not fucking it up, and another person can be like, hey, don't do that, that's dumb and that is way more valuable that you didn't lose the 40%, 50% of who knows what, or you forgot to do your will, and there's just all these things that are way more costly. You know to piddle about the one or 2% that's missing. The bigger point.

Speaker 2: 54:14

Well it's. Yeah, I mean. The thing is people worry about the cost, the fee of the advisor, and the advisor adds substantially more than that three, four times what you're paying. But also people who have great advisors and work with them, but they need more time. They need more kind of joy in their life. Yeah, read the book as well it's.

Speaker 1: 54:45

It's not only if you're looking for an advisor or better advisor oh yeah, there's lots of good stuff there, yeah for sure, yeah, and trying to do that, and so you can find out more about the book moneybalancejoycom, and I think you can also find a way to contact Mike that maybe we'll have in the show notes as well, and it's also available on Amazon, both Kindle and the paperback, I believe. So, yeah, mike, so good to talk to you.

Speaker 2: 55:16

And email me. I have it in my book, my email address. Uh, it's very simple. Mikes is in secreta at money bounce joycom pretty easy to remember. Uh, and you know you have questions, you have, you know, challenges, whatever. Uh, I'm, I'm here to help love it.

Speaker 1: 55:42

All right. Thanks so much. Good to have you on the show, mike, and thanks to all of you listening. Uh, we're watching on youtube. Thanks so much, take care and good day.