Tips for Handling Tough Workplace Conversations & Strategies for Effective Communication

Episode 271: It’s never easy to have that much-needed conversation with an employee who’s disrupting your company culture. Avoiding the issue may seem easier, but it can do more harm in the long run. Lori and Vonda share practical tips to make tough conversations—and letting go—less difficult.

Sponsored by:
Flower Clique
Flower Clique Prep School
Real Life Retail Florist

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

One employee probably thought she's never gonna get rid of me. I'm indispensable. You know, and I nobody's indispensable.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to the business and pleasure of flowers. We're your hosts, Vonda LaFever and Lori Wilson.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

And we believe the business and fun are a perfect combination. Kind of like us, Vonda. Good morning, Vonda. How are you? I am great, Lori. I want to tell you how proud I am of you. Oh, what did I do? You read a book. You read a fiction book. I didn't read it. Well, you audible it.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I auto-bowl it.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Now listen, our world as we know it now, it's about 50-50. 50% of the world says that's reading a book. The other 50 says, no, it ain't. But we're gonna go with the 50% that says it is because I'm on that side.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Okay. All right. Well, you read the book. Because when I bought the book, yes, and I was gonna read the book. No, no, no, no, no. Too small words, and it was way too many pages. Too many words. Too much time. Too much time for your life. You just pleaded with me. No, no, no. You gotta listen to this one. You will love this book, and it really was a great book. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

I thought it'd be the whole time. Listeners, the book is called The Extraordinary Life of Sam Hill. I can't remember the author's name now, but all you had to do is Google that or put it in Amazon. It was on the New York Times bestsellers list. It's a famous book. But my husband and I listened to it on Audible on a road trip. And my husband, who is Bonda's identical twin in personality and brain, not looks. They don't read books unless they have graphs and charts in them. That's what Exactly. Something to do with work. Something to do with work. But he loved it. I mean, we would get back in the car after like getting gas or something. He's like, Are you gonna turn that book back on? I was like, Yes, chill. I'm gonna turn it back on. And you kept texting me, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm sucked in.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I I could not stop listening to it. I really couldn't. And the way it's written is so cool because you know, some present time and then the flashback. And then you want to go back to like, okay, how did that present time finish up? Right. And just when I get to the next.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

So one of the things I always tell people when I am talking to them about learning empathy in the workplace or leadership, and they're like, Well, how, you know, how can I learn how to be more empathetic? And I got this from Dr. Nicole Price, who we've had on the podcast a couple times, is read fiction. Reading good fiction books is one of the ways because you start developing a love for the characters and putting yourself in the place of them. For example, in this book, I can say I will start putting myself in the mother's point of view in this book. Like if this was my child, you know, would I have fought so hard? Of course I would, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. All of those different scenarios, it develops empathy within us. And so studies show in her book, in locals, yes, she has actual scientific research that shows reading fiction helps strengthen your empathy.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Interesting. And well, this would be one that was definitely do that then because you were just like so into it. And you're like, like you said, your mother instincts. I kept relating many of these scenarios that were happening to my grandson, who is autistic. Yes. And you just wanted him to have that friend, and then when Sam got my friend Ernie, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

It's in your son. Yes. Yes, yeah. And the humor, too, um, along with the sadness in that book, like your emotions are everywhere. They are, and then even a little bit of fear, like when he gets pulled over by the cop, you're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is not happening. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

I would that's exactly what I was saying. This cannot be happening.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

On the edge of we're in the corner. I'm like, oh no, just not this guy again.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

No, no, exactly. Yeah, it was just so good.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah, highly, highly recommend. And the author is the reader of the Audible. His voice is so good. It really is. So good. It has nothing to do with flowers, but everything to do with pleasure. Well, and empathy and and growing empathy, then was what you're saying. 100%. So we highly recommend it. And it's to me a great. Sometimes audibles aren't great listens, depending on the who's doing the reading. But this one, hands down, you can just you can close your eyes and just flow along with the story. Sometimes audibles, I'll start them and then I'm like, eh, I don't like this one. And this one, I just I got sucked in early because of his voice, the tone of voice. He's just very soothing. So yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah, it was great, great listen, that's for sure. So all right.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Speaking of listening, we're gonna segue. I just got back from next gen, SAF's next gen convention, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and as we're gonna just discuss the elephant in the room, which is I am not a next gen fan. That is apparent, but I went because two reasons. Number one, we sponsored a night at Dr. Delphinium's, which was amazing. It was so great. And I was also went as a mentor, which was super fun. So that means I'm old and I can talk to young people.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So basically, is that what a mentor means in this space? That you're old and you can talk to young people. Well, that's a new definition of mentor that I never heard before.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yes, that is what Mike Black and I, Mike from JetFresh, we decided that was a nice way of saying senior citizen.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

So no, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

So the cool thing about going, as that is, you know, my love language is having conversations with people. And I got to have a lot of really great conversations, some of them one-on-one, some of them in groups. One of the great things about conventions like Next Gen is the size. Yes, it's big, but it is small enough where you can do a lot of mixing and mingling. Uh like, for example, we did a scavenger hunt at the Dallas Arboretum. So you pick a number and you're on team. So they put you on team, so you're not with just your friends, right? Right. I love that. I'm like, oh, new friends. Yay! So you get with a new group and you get to know new people. And you shine in those situations. Well, right, because I'm like, oh, what's your name? What's your story? Where do you work? What's your problem? Can I help you? You know, exactly. Do you need counseling? I'm let's text, you know, the whole thing. And then another thing they did was at lunch, we would go in and they do this every year. And this is my favorite thing. They have like fish bowls, and you draw a number and you have to sit at that table. Yeah. So you can't just sit with your friends, which again is so smart because we just tend to gravitate with the people you know. You're gonna have people you know. I mean, there was a couple, but the table I was with were just such interesting people. You have growers, you have wholesalers, you have shop owners, you have employees, just a little piece of every slice of pie. And so every place I was, it just seemed like the conversation was led back to someone in the group talking about how there was an employee that almost took everybody down. Oh the that toxic was lack of a better word, just that horrible employee that almost ruined it for everybody, and even like some people end up quitting before that, and how once they got rid of them, whether they quit on their own or fired or whatever, how it just changed the whole culture of the shop. And so I started asking a little bit deeper questions to the people sharing their story, whether it was from an employee perspective or from a manager perspective, owner perspective, or even like I was talking to a girl from Family Flowers, you know, they own multiples, and she was telling me some some stories. She was wonderful, and she was sharing some information, and I was like, wow, that's fascinating, you know, about what they've had to do in these situations. And I just thought, why does it take so long? Because the overriding consensus in all of these conversations was it's so much better. None of these people regretted getting rid of the person, but I do sense they regretted that it took so long.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. And it's what's interesting, Lori, is that as business owners, we give that person the power to do that in our business, right? We're seeing it somewhat. I mean, you're sensing something's not right, but then when it comes to the light, you're like, ooh. Yes, that one person is making that much negative difference in my shop. Yes. It's hard, Lori. It's hard to that they're like, why did wasn't it done sooner? Let me talk about it from the other side, right? I'm the employer, and this person is a heck of a designer. They're a great worker, but now I can see they're the ones who are causing the problems. So now I'm like, I'm not sure the rest of my staff is strong enough to be able to pull the weight. I'm not sure that they're going to be able to do it now. And then if somebody else is like so disgruntled, what am I going to do? Now I have this one designer who is really good and she answers the phone. She's fabulous. She does everything I need her to do, but she does cause this undercurrent in my shop. And then this one is she's trying, but she's just not there yet. But she's not causing any problems. So that's the dilemma of a owner of a shop, because I I'm not the employee, right? So I'm I'm right, high level looking in. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

And it's hard. Right. And and that's where this table discussion was leading until we were literally about to get kicked out. You know, my table turns into therapy sessions, right? And so, but listening to you, going back to the word undercurrent, what we know about what undercurrents take people down. Right. 100% they drown, people die. And they are almost impossible to recover from if you get stuck in the undercurrent. Right. I agree. This is easier said than done. I'm not saying this is easy because that's where that our discussion kind of plateaued in this. I would take a person, let's go back to skill versus will, that has that will and desire and is ready, wanting to step up and learn and be a team player. I would take them over the great skilled designer, yet toxic employee any day. Any day.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

And I know you were talking to employees who were in this situation for the most part, right? They were the employees.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Um, actually, most of the people I spoke to about this were of middle management. I talked to two different just basic employees. Uh-huh. Majority were middle management, not owners. So they were that stuck in the middle. And here's the other interesting little caveat to most of this. A lot of the I'm just gonna call them toxic employees. I hate, I want to come up with a better name than the word toxic, because I always Britney Spread's song keeps singing in my head. Um usually the other thing that makes it so hard, usually that employee is of some sort of either relation or something, you know, to the owner. Cousins, friends, brothers, bunny rabbits, breeder, right? Like some sort of something. So yeah. I just came up with that. Yeah, that was really good. That's good. I that's after two cups of coffee. Thank you. Thank you. And I was like, Yeah, that that makes it even harder. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because there's history, there's like not just work, but there's like personal history.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Or that person has a family and they're a single mother and all those kind of things. Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yep. So anyway, bottom line is they waited too long to get them out. And that's what we got to focus on today. Uh-huh. And the reason why they do that is because avoidance, right? We just avoid the conversations. Yep. It's kind of like what we're doing in our world right now. Anytime we don't agree with somebody else, we're like, well, I'm just gonna avoid it because I don't want to get into it. So we just, hey, how about the beautiful sunshine? Okay, you know, pick something that no one can get mad about. That's what we do. But in this circumstance, God, you gotta, you gotta have those conversations because you're gonna take everybody into that undercurrent along with you. Along with that toxic and void.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

So you found these eight tips to deal with having hard conversations.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

And a lot of these are very, very obvious. You're gonna go, yeah, whatever. You start with the first one, which is the most obvious.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, really. Just don't avoid it. Just hit it head on. So many times we're just like, oh, I'm no, I don't have time for this conversation right now. Uh I'm not in the mood for this right now. Oh, well, I'll have too much work to get out, so I can't do this now. Don't avoid it. When it happens, just say, come on, let's go in the office, let's have a conversation. We need to deal with something or we need to talk about something.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Right. We had a couple of years ago, it was literally two weeks before Valentine's Day, which is terrifying for any shop. And we had one of our clickers post in our private route. I think you remember this. She was like, I don't know what to do. Remember that? One of her best employees who was a designer, just toxic, just and pretty much the rest of her employees were like planning a coup almost. Like they're like, we can't deal with this anymore. I don't even remember what the exact issue was, but she just not a team player, let's just say that at all. And she's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And I was so proud of all of our members. We didn't even respond. We just didn't we're gonna just wait and see what happens here. And every person that commented was like, you know exactly what you need to do. Right. You know what you need to do. Do it now. Doesn't matter if Valentine's Day is in two days or 14, do it now.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

And others were sharing, I had to do that last year, a year before, whatever, and you will make it through Valentine's Day much better without that person than with them. Yeah. And that was so much support. It was so heartwarming just to say it was what support.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah. And so she did it, and she came back after Valentine's Day and was like, holy crap, like my team stepped up. Yeah. And we knocked it out of the park. And I think the main reason they stepped up is because they felt heard and respected. And they're like, okay, she's on our side.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

You know, and that one employee probably thought, she's never gonna get rid of me. I'm indispensable, you know. And I'm like, no, nobody's indispensable, right? They're not not as with those kind of actions. Absolutely not. So, but it's hard, right? But I think about that a lot and think of how great our members were and supportive and and honest. Yeah, they're like you do it, do it today, do it now, you know, and so encouraging, like, yes, yeah. So the next thing before you have that conversation, take a minute, take a deep breath. And it was like connect to your own vibe, is what it said. Like in control of yourself, right? Take some breaths. Again, at Next Gen one morning, Holly Haveman did a great job on talked about like preparing for the morning, which we talk about in sales prep school, you know, the importance of preparing your mind. And we did like this little five-minute breath works thing, which I'm a big believer in breath works. And I was like, I would totally do that before I had this conversation. Just do some breath work so that you can remain calm and consistent and not let your emotions get the best of you because you don't want to come in to this conversation hot. Oh no. You want to be very level-headed.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

And I always usually have notes, just some notes to glance down at because sometimes they're going this and this and this, and you just have something there to yeah, yeah. Next one's be honest. You know, don't exaggerate, lie, just be honest with this person, and and they're gonna have all these comebacks, as we know. And you just have to keep your breathing exercises going, right? Right, keep calm and listen. Just be truthful and you're gonna listen. But all that feedback has to be honest and not just a reaction, right? Honest on that.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, that's where I think too your your mention of making notes comes in because when their feedback or their defensiveness is coming at you, you can get a little skewed. So being able to look down at your bullet point facts as to why you're doing this and staying just with those, still allowing them. They can verbalize as much as they want. But being able to go back to okay, but this is why. These are the facts. Here's A, B, and C.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Here's what we've talked about before. You and I've had this conversation before. This has not corrected. This is what we've talked about before. This has not changed at all. And those are the points that you know, and you're truthful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

The other one, number four and five, I'm gonna actually just combine because to me they're the same. Be kind, which to me is a given, you know, when you're doing this. There's no reason to be yell. I mean, unless they murder your cat. Well, there's no there's no reason to be super emotional right now at them. That's not gonna help at all. You want to de-escalate when you're in this situation. So treat the human as a human because they are human and we humans are flawed. That is what I say. We all make mistakes. So but avoid personalization. Remember. Remember, you and I, when we talk to members about stuff, like take the emotion out of it. It's business. It's just business. And it's super hard to do that, especially when the person maybe you're talking to is some sort of connection.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Well, they're gonna be a connection, right? Because they've been there a while, probably if they're closing that undercurrent event situation.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Chances are they're connected somehow. I mean, it's easy to get rid of the one that's only been there three months and haven't been doing their job, right? So depersonalizing it and just keeping it about the business. Here's our policy, and here's what you didn't follow, and here's why we're letting you go. Yep. But doing it in a kind way.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

As kind as you can. It's they're never gonna think you're kind. No, no, honestly, they're not. That's true. That's true. But you can do as much as I want. And then I guess we kind of covered this one, next one was listen, because I think when you're talking and having that conversation and being honest, you're listening. I mean, that's how you're engaging. So just really listen with concern about what they have to say. But you have to remember at this point, when you're listening and they're trying to talk themselves back into staying in that position, back to your notes, back to those notes.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I hear what you're saying, but you know, the fact of the matter is this was what the expectation was. This is how you didn't meet that expectation. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Exactly. And referring back to those notes, you keep telling them that's why it's important. Be specific, right? This is not a time to be vague, to like pussyfoot around as to why you're letting them go. You gotta be specific. You know, we've talked on here about that sandwich compliment. Yep. Do not do that here.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Because they're not gonna hear why you're letting them go. They're not gonna come home and post on their Facebook page for whatever. I have no idea why I was let go.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

They're just mean. You have to be really careful on being specific, that it's not, oh, so-and-so told me this or so-and-so. Don't ever bring another employee's thoughts or words into that conversation. This again has to be about business. What are they doing in your situation that they're not filling the need or they're doing something in the shop that is not their job, or whatever it is that's wrong on those notes? But just remember, do not do a hearsay.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah. No, I I think that's really, really great point. And then, you know, the last one, Vonda, and I think this last one I would start with at the very beginning is acknowledge like this is a hard conversation to have. This is really hard for me. This is not an easy conversation. I think it's okay. I've been struggling to have this conversation with you because for uh whatever reason you have. It's it's okay to acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

I think before and after, I agree with you. I would start with that. Yeah. But then at the end, you say, you don't understand how hard this is for me for because of our relationship and because what you've done, we have to do this. This is a necessary thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Yeah, yeah. I do want to go back to one thing you said because I think if anything, people listening, I want them to walk away with, and it wasn't one of these eight things, it was something you said. It is so important when you are releasing someone back out into the workforce for whatever your reasons are. Do not bring anyone else's name into that situation.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

On staff, do not say, well, the girls have said this or this or that. Like, no, here's the policy, here's the rules that were broken. You had strike one, two, and three. This is hard. I hate this, but we're gonna have to let you go. Right. Less is more. Right. You're right on your end. If they want to talk, let them and listen. And then just go again. I'm so sorry. I hate this. I wish this never gets easy. You need to protect your staff.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

They need to be able to trust you. 100%. Well, and it's not about them, it's about this person that's right in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

They're the one this person is the one that did whatever.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. Most of it, like you just mentioned, is common sense. And you know that this is what you need to do, but mentally preparing yourself for that is the hardest part of this. And bring in somebody to help. If I'm the owner, but I have the manager, the two of you can do this together. It doesn't have to be just the owner just doing this because that manager, you're not going to be there to attack. Right. But sometimes that second person is necessary, especially if you're weak, right? And I'm I'm not weak, weak, but you're like, I might give in because I know everything. I know this person so well.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And that second person gives you that strength to go.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

It's true. Know yourself well enough to know if you need a backup there. You know, I think that's that's really smart. The other thing that I was thinking as you said that is when it's over and the person exits the building. My question to you, because you owned a flower shop and you've been through this, do you have a conversation with your staff or do you sit a minute, or what what happens then? You just sit a minute.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

It's not like you don't go, okay, it's done. I mean what you kind of want to do, right? Because yeah, you're human. It's hard. Yeah. And most of the time when I've done that, it's been right when that person comes in, and I know it's gonna happen. And honestly, I think I've only had to let two employees go over my whole time. And when I knew that next day was going to be the day, and she was always the one who came in early, then I asked the other employees to come in a half hour late so that there was nobody in the store except for me, and actually Carla was with me to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

And be able to pack the person's stuff up and exit before the other people came in.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

And that also shows respect to the person you're letting go to, in my opinion. They still earn dignity. Yeah, absolutely. And as dignified as you can make this, regardless of what they did, I think is very important.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah, yeah. It's it's the hardest thing I think that an employer can has to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

And then when your staff gets there, then do you just make a group announcement or do you just let them know as they come in? So and so's no longer working.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I waited until everybody came in in that case, because we had some people showing up, and then they just kept looking over her desk. You know, it's like, and I just said, no, she's not gonna come in, she's no longer with us. And I walked away, they I'm sure were like talking all about it, but that's okay. I didn't need to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Nope. Nope. And that's done. Good, good. I think that's important too, to let them know and then also get back to work.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Back to work.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

That chapter has closed.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

And it's like you said, the respect that they have for you for helping alleve that situation that they're feeling every day when they're coming into work and not wanting to come to work is huge. I'm sure it scores points with the boss.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah. So I know we're done with this topic, but you know what? I would love to do a podcast on sometime. And I would need to talk to more employees, which I can absolutely do is how to go to your boss if you feel you there's a toxic employee. Like how how do you do that without sounding like a whiny baby? You know what I mean? Yeah, that's tough.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

That's not tough.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

But if you're doing those check-ins with your employees, like you've got time.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. But how do you how do you bring it? Even if you're doing those, like how do you say so-and-so's so-and-so's not being nice. Like, like what how do you say those things? So I think that would be an interesting way. And then as a boss, how do you decipher who's really toxic and who is just not well liked because they're really good at their job and everybody else is jealous? Like a whole lot of things there, right? There are. There really are. There's a lot of things to decipher. You have to be very astute as an owner to know the truth there.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

So always keep your eyes open. That's a really good one to try to come up with for a podcast. And you could interview them, we could do some voice notes. Yeah. And then we could play those.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

I'll do that in my spare time. Yes, yeah, when you have not. Well, that's not happening then because we don't have any spare time. Well boy.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

No, but I no, I think that would be really interesting. Like what is truly toxic and what is just maybe a really bad day or really just a conflict of personality.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

So if you're listening to this and you have a suggestion on how you would approach your boss with a with a toxic situation or a bad situation in your store, reach out to Lori.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yep. Or how you, as a boss, you've been approached. Yeah. Like any of that information, I would love to know like how you became aware, because we've talked about that before. A lot of times, bosses they have no idea because they're so busy doing boss stuff, and they had no idea. And maybe it was the manager who's toxic. They didn't know, and the manager was a jerk. And and then was late. And they were like, Why are so many people keep quitting? What's the going on? What's the deal? Like, yeah, how do you have that conversation? So you have to have a laurie. That's what I keep saying. You gotta have a laurie. I know, but you can't have a virtual one, you gotta have an in-house one.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

You do to see what's going on, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

So that's anyway. Okay, back to my day job.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Okay, same here. Have a good day job today.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you enjoyed spending time with us because we enjoy spending time with you. If you did, make sure you hit that subscribe button or add the business and pleasure of flowers to your Google morning routine or your flash briefing on Alexa.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

We look forward to seeing you next week. So please come back and join us and discover how a bit of knowledge and one small change in your mindset can take you to new levels in your life and business.