Feedback vs. Advice: It's all in the approach

Episode 026: It's never easy to have conversations with employees, or anyone for that matter!  Lori shares I.D.E.A.L.S. which is a foundation script used in most tough conversations. The I.D.E.A.L.S. conversation (which takes seconds to have) focuses on the facts, establishes accountability and looks forward (and not backward) to find solutions.  
Vonda and Lori share the steps and the way it's been used in real life situations that you can easily make work for you, as a manager, owner or employee.

Sponsored by:
Flower Clique
Flower Clique Prep School
Real Life Retail Florist

Transcript

Vonda 0:00

The manager or owner having self awareness is so important because you have to be able to read how that employee is before you start even thinking about a conversation. Welcome to the business and pleasure of flowers. We're your hosts, Vonda LaFever.

Lori 0:28

and Lori Wilson . And we believe that business and fun are a perfect combination. Kind of like us Vonda.

Vonda 0:41

Good morning, Lori.

Lori 0:43

Good morning.

Vonda 0:44

Hey, I'd like to give you some feedback.

Lori 0:49

Yes, yes. Vonda, do you want to give me feedback or do you want to give me advice?

Vonda 0:57

Let's talk about the difference between feedback and advice and the advantages to each of those. I think that's a great subject for today.

Lori 1:05

Okay. Well, we're going to, and as silly as it sounds, I was reading an article, you know, I read a lot of articles and they were talking about managers, business owners, anything from a small business owner all the way up. And they were saying how, when you're having conversations, whether you are speaking in a staff meeting, or if you're having one on one, they said, instead of saying things like I would like to give you some feedback, change the word, feedback to advice and say Vonda, you know, I've got some advice for you, or I'd like to give you a little bit of advice, and this is no scientific study, but it made a little bit of sense to me because when you think about it, anytime someone says, Hey, I want to give you some feedback, right? It's usually not positive because if it is, they're going to go, Hey, you know what? You know what I heard, I heard you did a great job or whatever, but when they start the conversation, Hey, can I give you some feedback? I'm like, sure. But you say, Hey, I was listening to your speech or I was listening . Whatever. can I give you a little bit of advice? So psychologically, according to this article, when people hear they're going to give me advice instead of feedback, it's a little more nurturing. It's a little more, Hey, this person's really thought about me and thought about what I did and they want to talk to me about it.

Vonda 2:40

I think feedback we've had experiences that have been negative that referred to feedback. I think that with every employee, that's where it goes. It's like, Ooh , feedback has not been a good experience for me in the past.

Lori 2:55

So this isn't going to go, well, you know, this can't go well. And so that's kind of what I wanted to talk about today. Giving tough feedback or tough advice to people, without them getting defensive, angry, you know, sulking all those you've you've been in those positions.

Vonda 3:16

I have, you know, and I would just have to go back to had one employee who I love dearly, but whenever there was something that had come up, then I would say, could we go back in the office? We need to have, I used to say, we just need to have a little conversation. And then she was starting to cry. It was like, Oh my gosh. I'm like, I've never knew what to do. It was. Then I realized it was her lack of security. She was insecure, she was total lack of confidence and she really wanted to be perfect. And she knew just going back in the office and maybe talking about something meant there was something wrong, right?

Lori 3:57

Probably in her history. Yes. You get called to the office. It's never for something good. That's you know, so, so we're going to talk about that today. There are ways to have these conversations with your employees. And I want to say, if you're listening to this podcast and you are an employee, this is a great approach to use, to talk to your manager or boss too . I mean, it goes both ways, how we change the sentences that the whole semantics change when you rephrase what you're doing. So the plan or what we're going to talk about today did come from Mark Murphy, the leadership IQ, we've talked about him before, really like him. As a matter of fact, in this, he talks all about, depending on the person's self awareness, like where did you score on your emotional IQ? And every one of us, our team, our flower clique our core four , we've done that. We've done those quizzes. And so we know kind of where we are, but it's important to know your employees. What kind of self awareness they have. Here's an example. I scored incredibly high on self awareness, which is weird, but it makes sense because I can walk into a room. I'm very aware if I'm making an impact in that room or not. And again, almost 52 years old, a lot of experience getting to this point, there are other people that score really low on self-awareness doesn't mean they're bad people. It just means they have no idea how their actions impact other people, even walking into a room.

Vonda 5:52

So you can read a room is what they're saying. That's praise .

Lori 5:56

Yes through lots of education and counseling and experience. I work hard at it . I choose to be self aware. You know, I'm constantly making sure if I'm in a room, is everyone feeling comfortable? People that maybe don't have as much life experience. I would say like my kids, they probably don't score as high because they're 19 or 20 years old, there is a different , so us being self-aware need to notice if other people are because it changes the conversation.

Vonda 6:30

Sure. So the person who is the manager or owner having self-awareness is so important because you have to be able to read how that employee is before you start even thinking about a conversation.

Lori 6:46

Right? Here's true example, because I scored in the 90th percentile on the self awareness quiz. If you cause technically you are my boss in flower clique, if there was a problem, I don't know. I can't even think of one right now because we're all just so cohesive, let's say there's an issue. You would not use these steps. We're going to talk about with me because I have a very high level of self awareness before you got to step two, I would know where you were going. And I would say, let me stop you right there. Here's what I'm trying to do to solve the problem. I get it. So you would use what he calls constructive dialogue . And that means you basically go to step four. You might start with one and say, how do you think the transaction went? I don't know. I'm just, I don't even know what it would be. And then the next one would be, how do you think we can do better? Next time? Those are really the only two because I get it and I'm already feel bad about it. And I'm already trying to tell you, I have five examples of how we need to do it differently. So those types of people, it's a whole nother conversation. I don't think we need to get into today, but then you also have the other extreme, right? The people that, and you probably have experienced Vonda, the minute you say, Hey, can we have a conversation later today? They freak out cry. I'm saying they're get defensive blame game. It is not my fault.

Vonda 8:20

and the mind goes first, when you just say, I would like to talk, or let's talk about this later . Your mind is playing such games on. You have no idea. It's like, Oh my gosh, what did I do? And it wasn't my fault. Like you said, it wasn't my fault and my fault. And you're thinking of all kinds of things.

Lori 8:40

The problem with an employee that has that mindset is they become contagious among the staff. If they have the mindset that nothing is ever their fault, or they're trying to find the blame, which is the number one thing you have to do to an employee like that, you need to put their mind at ease. At the very beginning, I don't care who did it, let's move to solving the problem. But if you don't diffuse that at the very beginning, all your other employees start watching and thinking, well, if I just start blaming others, it's going to be solved. So that's a whole nother conversation. My number one thing would be, get rid of those kind of employees, right? But you and I both know it's not always possible.

Vonda 9:26

So would these conversations you're saying in a diffuse and the blame game, wouldn't these conversations mostly be in private rather than in a public setting.

Lori 9:38

For sure. If you're dealing with a combative type of person, you know, someone that gets highly offended, typically they are probably the most dramatic in your shop . They kind of are the gossipy people. It's, it's that type of employee. You're going to have to have a one-on-one with them behind closed doors. The problem is how do you get them to do it?

Vonda 10:01

Okay. Let's set up the scenario because I just want to make sure that I'm clear and that people can follow this. So I'm in my back room is what we usually call it. I'm in the backroom with the designers and somebody calls, they have a complaint. Something happened, which rarely happens. I know, but yeah, it does. Then you're like, okay, let's talk about what happened here. And then somebody's going to say something, well, this is what happened. And then, well, she did this and that's where you're saying the blame game comes into play. Right? And so you're saying at that point, what do I do?

Lori 10:35

So first of all, stick with the facts, meaning just what you know, don't read into anything. I learned this many years ago in parenting, in one of my courses, psychology, the exceptional child when I was in college. And it talked about situations with children, especially emotionally disturbed kids, which is what I was working with. And they said, think Winnie the Pooh, think about how in every Winnie the Pooh cartoon or movie, his voice stays pretty even. If he's happy, he might get a little louder. But if he's sad or mad, I don't know that Winnie the Pooh was ever mad, but you're saying it's called low expressed emotion. Keep your tone very calm. And don't play the blame game. Stick to Vonda, Hey, you have five minutes today. Is there a time I'd love to talk to you. You know, when you get a minute that also gives them, that gives you a little control over when, instead of me saying Vonda , can you come to my office? Do you see the difference there ? When you have a minute, can you come talk to me? And then when you're in there, say again, I'm going to use you because you were the defiant one. Some of the staff said that you, duh, duh, duh, can you tell me anymore about that? I want to know more, you know, what can you share with me? I've received three written reports of how you treated a customer. I'd love to know your side of the story. And then you just sit back. You know, the key is again, listening and seeing, are they coming up with excuses? Are they going straight to blame? If they are saying, Hey, I don't care about the blame . What do we need to do to solve this problem? Those are the extremists. I honestly don't think shops are filled with those type of antagonizers.

Vonda 12:33

Not usually. I think right now, especially there's lower staff and people are busier. Whoever's there is super busy. And so there's not as much undercurrent because sometimes what you're describing to me is what I would call an undercurrent in the shop because there's one person in there who's like not really saying that somebody else is to blame. You know , they're not taking the responsibility, but they're not pointing a finger. They're like, Oh, I wouldn't never do that. Right. No, that wasn't me. Yeah. Well tell me how this is happening then. Right? I don't know it couldn't I don't , I don't know.

Lori 13:09

Here's the other thing, just hearing you say that you're not ever going to change them, like maybe 2% better, but you're never going to change who they are. Right . You just have to change how you react to the situation. That's all you can do.

Vonda 13:27

And to try to get the true information.

Lori 13:29

get the truth out of them. That's hard. One of the things they say by diffusing , the blame is by saying, okay, the history that's unimportant. How are we going to move forward?

Vonda 13:41

Oh I like that.

Lori 13:44

The history. The story behind it. I don't care that he said, she said the damage is done. Here's the damage. How are we going to fix that? Is that something we can fix together? Or are you going to be so set with who did the damage that you can't get past it? Cause if you can't, then we do have a problem. So again, cool. Calm, collected. Um, okay. So that's the extremes we've talked. Yes. Let's focus on what most people are going to deal with. And that is what Mark Murphy calls ideals. I D E a L S. Those are steps that you're going to use in having the tough conversations. And again, going through these steps from, even from an employee's perspective, if I wanted to go in and have a tough conversation with my manager.

Vonda 14:40

Sure. That makes sense.

Lori 14:41

So step one, invite them to partner with you. Now I'm going to say, you always do good job of this. You don't even know you do it. It's just kind of in you, at least you do this with Kami and Ellie and Audrey and Leslie and Denise. And I mean, you always do this. You don't necessarily say, would you be willing because we're always willing, but you invite us in to partner with you. Do you mind helping me problem solve? That Is it. That is what's key. Inviting them to partner by saying something like, Hey Vonda, would you be willing to have a conversation with me about what happened yesterday? 99% of the people are going to go, Oh, sure .

Vonda 15:27

They were like, Oh yeah, I like to be a partner. Right.

Lori 15:31

That gives you space. It also helps diffuse because I'm not blaming. I'm not saying you have to get in my office. I'm just saying, would you be willing if somebody says no, or you're their defenses go up immediately. That's when you know, okay. They're very unaware of self. I got to go to plan B, which is the one we already talked about. Just stick to the facts. You're not going to have a good conversation with this person. Step one is invite I for ideals, the step to disarm your self. So I'm like, why would I disarm me? But it means I'd like to review the situation to make sure I'm on the same page as you. This one like blew my mind a little bit, because typically I would say like, Hey Vonda , I just wanna make sure we're on the same page. And Mark Murphy is saying is when you say we, and especially when you're the boss, they hear you. They hear, I want to make sure you're on my same page. So if you say, I just want to make sure you and I are on the same page or I'm on the same page as you, that puts it back into their court. Like, okay. He does want to know, or she does want to know my side. I think that was just changing the language right there.

Vonda 17:02

Just changing that simple language.

Lori 17:04

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, are we on the same page here? And I could see an employee. If a boss says that going , you mean, do I agree with you ?

Vonda 17:15

You know , so employee , I want to see if we're on the same page. Okay. That's okay. Because we're equal .

Lori 17:22

Yeah. And again, the goal of this, because there's an issue. So you're trying to always diffuse the situation. This is having a tough conversation. This isn't, if you created a gorgeous design and I was going to use it for social media and I would say Vonda, I want to make sure we're on the same page with this. That's no big deal. Right. But if there was a tough conversation to be had, then the language needs to be different.

Vonda 17:49

Make sense? Alright .

Lori 17:50

So step three, we already talked about this eliminate blame first and foremost, work towards a solution blame. Isn't going to move you forward. The only scenario I could see this is if an employee I don't know , stole money or was steeling, you know, things like that, that clearly yes, blame has to be had, and then you'd be fired and all these things. But the point of eliminating blame is to help develop that plan. So everyone can move forward and maybe even say, listen, I get, we have different perspectives on this, but let's figure out how to move forward because we all need to learn to live with different perspectives. It's okay. That's what makes our world great. If we were all the same, it would be so boring. Right ? Right. So think about that. It's it's okay to have different perspectives. It doesn't mean you don't have respect for one another, but the key is if we can't move forward and solve the problem cause you're so stuck on your perspective, then we do have a problem.

Vonda 18:57

Yeah, no, you're right.

Lori 18:58

So eliminate blame. That is ID E . Okay. So the next one is A, affirm their choice. When you're saying is, do you have any time today? You could talk with me. I'd love to review the situation and make sure I'm on the same page as you are. Will that work for you back in their court? Yes or no? Yeah. That should be great. That sounds good. How about we do it over lunch or, or I have time later it gives them a little bit of control in what's getting ready to happen.

Vonda 19:31

Makes sense. Yup .

Lori 19:32

The next one number five is list corrective. And he uses the word feedback. The article I read last week, you said not use it, but everybody's different. You know, I think you have to use what you think your employees are going to be most comfortable.

Vonda 19:48

but you're not telling them you're giving feedback. I think that's the difference right there.

Lori 19:53

Yeah. That's true. One thing he interchanged word feedback with facts. List the facts. Here's what we know. We got a bad review from an order that was delivered yesterday and they said the delivery driver was very rude. You, my friend were the delivery driver, I would love to know what happened. I would love to know your side. Here are the facts, Google review, negative delivery driver smelled black smoke. I don't know. You know, whatever it is. You were the delivery driver. I just want to know your perspective. There's nothing in that that he or she can refute. Cause that is, those are the facts.

Vonda 20:34

Just the facts.

Lori 20:34

just the facts. Now your job in listing that is to see their response and figure out, okay, focus forward. How we make this better. Like if that were me and you had that conversation with me, I would be saying, okay. Yes I did. I'm a closet smoker. I am struggling. I'm so sorry. I'm going to stop. You know, whatever I'm going to do differently. I can say, I'll stop smoking. I don't smoke. But the next one, this is kind of cool. Synchronize your understanding. You as my boss, me as a delivery driver, that messed up your job Vonda, is to make sure that we come out of this together. So you would say something like, so how do you think we can work together to help this? Like, do you need me to buy you a nicotine patch? Do you need , I don't know. I'm just making stuff up.

Vonda 21:29

I actually thought when you were going to S was going to be solutions because I had not heard this and I'm like, Oh, well S has to be solutions . So I guess that's the thing. Yeah. I put the word synchronize the understanding so that we're together in coming up with the solution and are on the same page with that. Right?

Lori 21:46

So one of the flower shops that is a flower clique member. I remember them telling me about an employee. That was very nice, but very gossipy, meaning not just about people there, but anytime there was a free minute, she might go back to the designer and go, Oh my gosh, did you watch the Kardashians last night? Oh, did you hear ? Or just anything? And she was constantly taking up other people's time because you know how that is. You'd go in. You're not , while you're designing, you may be stuck . No, I didn't tell me about it. Whatever the scenario is. And he had to have a conversation with her, the owner and he called me and he's like, should I just fire her? I am just so annoyed because the other employees are getting sucked in and it is such a waste of time. And then he asked to come out and he yells and he's the bad guy, you know, all those things. This was before I ever saw this, but we kind of made a list like this, as far as if he can get her in the room. And he did. And he had a conversation and he was saying, he built her up and was like, I need you because you're amazing on the phone. She was so good. The customers loved her and he said, how can I help you? So we don't go back. You know? And so they came up with a plan. He let her come up with what would work best, what would help her. And it was him being more of the bad guy and coming out and saying, you guys get to work so she can get out on the phone. And, and he kind of switched to where the backroom was like what? We're not, but they were okay with it. Cause they didn't share it . And it really did help. Yeah . But he synchronized, he was like, how can we work together? Because I do need you but I need my designers to work. Yeah.

Vonda 23:47

That's great. Yeah. Well, Lori, I think we gotta wrap up. So let's go through those takeaways.

Lori 23:54

is if you have super defensive and where people get rid of them, is that what.

Vonda 23:59

that could be? Yes. I mean , I guess sometimes they're causing the undercurrent and that is not a good thing in a shop situation, but I think going through and trying to remember ideals, I think that's great.

Lori 24:13

Yeah. Yeah. I think it does. I think it's , it's good. It's just, I don't know that we'll remember all six steps every time, but I think it's enough. You can walk away and go, okay, what are the facts? What do I know , stick to the facts. Who do I need to have the conversation with? How do I approach that person? I think that's almost key. And we didn't even talk, use that word approach. But as a manager, how can I approach the person I need to talk to lovingly and without their defenses popping up.

Vonda 24:49

And that's the invite though. I like that because that's inviting. So you have to know it's that self awareness of your employees to know how to invite them.

Lori 24:58

Yeah. Yeah . Invite them to help you find the solution. I think there's a lot of power in that. When you inviting me to come in and help solve a problem. If I was very unaware, there's a good chance I'm gonna feel really good and go in there. I probably have no idea I was the reason for the problem.

Vonda 25:18

Well, in circling back around to that employee that I had told you that that's what happened. She would cry. And that's how I solved it. After I got to know her better was I would say, Hey, listen, I really need your input on something. I need your help on how to do this. Yeah. Then it was like, let's go, let's go.

Lori 25:39

So genius.

Vonda 25:40

She just switched it around. But again, it was at self-awareness as an employee or an owner, you have to be aware of like you you're. So self-aware most employees are not that self-aware. I know.

Lori 25:54

And you know, it's gotta be so hard though for a business owner because there have gotta be days that you just want to grow a ground up piece of paper at them. I go, come on. I'm like seriously, but you can't, we're all human. And we have , or all human that's the backroom first and throw darts at a wall and then come out and say, and smile. How would you like to partner with me and have a conversation calls to action. Stick to the facts. You just said that. Yes. Just the facts. Ma'am wasn't that the whatever TV show back in the seventies.

Vonda 26:29

Dragnet, just the facts. Ma'am.

Lori 26:32

that's exactly what we need diffuse the situation at the very beginning. I don't care how it started. Think of how many times in our life Vonda as moms we have said, I don't care how it started. It's gonna stop. Like I was going through this. I was thinking about that. I'm like, God, this is great parenting, marriage advice, manager advice. So I don't care. Who's to blame the lamp is broken. What are we going to do about it?

Vonda 27:13

And I liked this one to avoid using you and try to use I so, or, you know , I saw this and I'm trying to figure out how that happened, you know? So it's all about me. It's not about you.

Lori 27:28

Yes. Yes. Well, and then going back to, instead of saying, I want to make sure we're on the same page. I want to make sure I'm understanding your side . I want to make sure I'm on the same page as you, not you on mine. I want to be on yours. So tell me your truth.

Vonda 27:46

Yeah. Great advice.

Lori 27:47

Yeah. So stick to the facts, diffuse the situation by using Winnie the Pooh language and avoid using you statements, which again is marriage retreat one-oh-one, I mean, remember that I've been married almost 29 years and I can remember the first year of marriage learning that from our pastor. Never ssay you because you automatically feel attacked automatically. It's just our human nature. Every one of us.

Vonda 28:15

Wow. That's crazy.

Lori 28:17

I know it. I know it's so alright . Vonda, our counseling sessions over, but before we get off, what's given you life this morning.

Vonda 28:25

What is giving me life? Well, it's a nice early Saturday morning that we're on.

Lori 28:31

Look at us working seven am.

Vonda 28:33

So actually it is my coffee this morning. It's probably my fifth cup of coffee already.

Lori 28:42

Well, I will share with you that I am I too am drinking coffee, but because of you and your influence, I have cinnamon in my coffee and it's the game changer. I think we've talked about it before on here . I just do one little blip in it. Just how much do you do.

Vonda 29:03

Just a couple And it's very, it's an antiinflammatory.

Lori 29:11

it gives it that little.

Vonda 29:13

And of course I have my creamer as, so Lori , what does giving you life?

Lori 29:20

Here's what's giving me life right at this very moment. So, and it sounds so silly. My husband got me this bird, it's a red bird . It's made out of iron and it's on a run iron stick. And it sits out by a tree in my backyard. I'm looking at it right now, like out my window in my backyard. And it just sits there and it looks like it is perched in a tree. It reminds me of my mama . Cause she always loved red birds, and I will tell you this morning, right before, as I was waiting for you to send me the link to the podcast, I was looking at it and I kid you not a real red bird came and perched right next to it. A little teary eyed. Cause I'm like mama , it wasn't . But I'm like, Oh mama and daddy and daddy. Yeah, it's so precious. And it's such a silly, quirky gift, but it means so much to me because my mom was obsessed with red birds and I wouldn't be annoyed because of how obsessed she was with him . And now I find every time I see them , I can't help, but smile. So that gave me a little bit of life this morning because one went and sat right next to the fake one.

Vonda 30:38

There you go. That's awesome.

Lori 30:40

All right , let's go do the rest of our Saturdays. Right ?

Vonda 30:43

Let's get back to them .

30:44

We have certainly enjoyed our time together today and we look forward to being with you guys again, if you have any questions, concerns, comments, anything we would love to hear from you. You can always email Lori@flowerclique.com. Also, if you enjoy our little podcast, go ahead and click that subscribe button. That's very helpful for us and you can even leave a review and we hope you join us next week.

Vonda 31:10

Yes, so please come back and join us and discover how a bit of knowledge and one small change in your mindset can take you to new levels in your life and business.

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