The Embodied Alchemy Pod

8. Bridging The Gap Between Medicine and Mindfulness with Dr. Jackie Ang

March 12, 2020 Dominique
The Embodied Alchemy Pod
8. Bridging The Gap Between Medicine and Mindfulness with Dr. Jackie Ang
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

THE INTERVIEW
- How medical school provided Jackie with her first Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction experience
- Moving into her own practice, expectations vs reality
- How the government controls Dr/patient interaction
- How she felt she was leading a double life between western medicine and eastern philosophy
- Combining mindfulness with medicine (AND how its covered by healthcare!)
- How you can work with Jackie now! PS, It's covered by OHIP!

CONNECT WITH JACKIE
1) 8 week OHIP Covered (!!!!) Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program 

- May 14 to June 24 Wednesday evenings from 5 - 7:30 PM in Waterdown at Yogashala

- Registration is OPEN and closes mid April or when the session is full. Space is limited. Visit website www.kealaliving.com for details 


2) Mind, Body, Soul: A Pathway Back To You - Sunday April 19 and June 7

- 3 Hour Workshop Experience, Healing through Yoga, Meditation, Reflection and Sound Bath Immersion

- Co-facilitated with life coach and yoga teacher Laura Stefankieciwz

- Sunday April 19 and June 7 from 1-4pm at the Yogashala in Waterdown 


3) Free Community Classes at Yogashala beginning in April  

- Monday evening 7:30 PM - Mindful Unwind

- Friday morning 10:45 AM - Yin and Connect 


RESOURCES
- Connect with Jackie on her website; kealaliving.com
- @jackie.keala
- @embodiedalchemy.pod
- @domchesh

SPONSORS/DISCOUNTS
- Pure Balanxed;
  * ALCHEMY20 for 20% off https://www.purebalanxed.com
  * @purebalanxed

- Carli Paintings;
   * ALCHEMY15 for 15% off products, experiences, & creative services
   * @carlipaintings

- Foli;
  * FOLIPOD for 20% off your purchase https://shopfoli.ca
  * @shop_foli



Transciptions available at www.embodiedalchemy.ca

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the embodied alchemy podcast. I'm your host, Dominique Cheshire. Embodied alchemy. Started as a way to describe finding empowerment and has quickly grown into so much more. Embodied alchemy is about feeling the tough stuff and working through it. It's about sharing our stories, speaking our truths and hoping that there's someone out there who feels it too. We are here together to celebrate our ups and our downs because the tough stuff is where the magic happens. I am so excited to be here with you today. Are you ready? Let's go. Hey alchemists. Oh, do I have someone juicy for you today? I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing my friend, dr Jackie and she is honestly like such a light being and I don't say that light li light being lightly. I met Jackie when I was teaching[inaudible] in Burlington. She was a client and I met her. I think I started teaching her just before she did her exams, her like final, final, final exams. Um, so I've known her throughout quite a big curve of her career, but I always knew her as dr Jackie and we would talk about different things and um, I mean I'm pretty pretty open about all of the wild and wacky stuff I'm into. Anyway, so fast forward a few years and I see her doing all of these really cool things on Instagram. She's like in Hawaii, she's in India and, and she's commenting on like my kind of spiritual stuff and we get chatting and lo and behold, we're actually like total soul sisters in our spiritual life this whole time. And what I like other than that being funny, what I find really important about Jackie's story is that she has been in the medical community as a doctor that has been her trajectory for her whole life. And it was really, once she became a doctor, when she had her own practice that she really, really, really started to realize that living this sort of duality of being spiritual and being in the medical field can't be separate things for her. That they have to be a combined thing and that there's a place for that combined thing, which I just find so important and fascinating. My practitioners, I think most of the practitioners I work with regularly but also especially through my rehab were people who if they weren't actively involved in something mindfulness based or spiritually based themselves, they were at least open to and respected my own practice. Like I remember being in therapy and uh, I was in a really good place that day, which was nice cause I had been in like not a great place for a few weeks. And so my therapist asked me, you know, like, this is really amazing. Is there anything specifically done? And what had happened was I had met up with a friend for like a coffee date and she had brought some Oracle cards and we did an Oracle card reading and it was really, really relevant. It had given me a little bit of comfort in what my journey was going to be and I appreciate it that I said that to her and she was like, amazing. If that's what made you feel good, then I'm so onboard for it when she really could have been like, well that's not a real thing. And so I think that this idea of bringing together these two sides, Eastern and Western, it's been a big theme for me in my life and it's something I really wanted to bring into the podcast. So as Jackie and I were comparing notes and sharing stories, I just thought she was such a perfect fit of being able to talk so eloquently about how passionate she is about being a doctor and helping people but also the resources available to do that in a way that feels very aligned with mindfulness. And that's something that she's really passionate about is mindfulness based practices. I will also say, cause I do mention it in the podcast, I walked into her home and was ruling, my goodness Jackie, if you're listening and I mean I hope you are, you have the most gorgeous space. It is like all of my Pinterest pictures put together with singing bowls and big gorgeous plants everywhere and cards and like open windows and jewels and gems and stones and do yoga props. I was literally like, can I just move in? This is everything I've ever wanted. So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. If there's anything that you have questions about, I'm going to connect all of Jackie's contact info at the end of the episode as well as in the show notes so you're more than welcome to reach out to Jackie or myself with any questions. Deep breaths, my friends. I hope you enjoy this episode with Jackie and I'll see you on the other side. I am so grateful to be supported by Carmen Darley of Carly D paintings. She is a resin based artist and Toronto entrepreneur who is excited to offer podcast listeners an exclusive discount on all products, services and experiences. Go to Carly paintings.com to see all the gorgeousness and use code alchemy 15 for 15% off anything under$100 make sure to tune into episode four of the pod where Carmen shares the journey behind her amazing art. We are supported by fully shipping houseplants in cool pots to doorsteps across Ontario soon to be nationwide fully makes welcoming plants into your home or office. Easy and convenient. Choose your plant and pot of choice and within two to three days you're fully will arrive to your doorstep. Plus 95% of all packaging is recyclable. That is important. Fully provides happy, healthy Hardy plants that are easy to care for. Many are locally grown in Ontario. Use code fully pod for 20% off your purchase at shop fully. Dot CA and join the plant obsession. I know I have pure balanced, balanced with an X instead of a C is a brand I have personally loved for a little while now I have a shirt and a cruise sweater and I love rocking them. Both. Pure balanced is an empowering apparel brand out of Toronto, creating luxurious everyday pieces. All their clothing include a sewn and empowering statement. Simply flip the X to read the affirmation. They're a brand committed to community with 5% of sales donated, going to netic and 5% of sales going to friends first. You can check everything out about them on Instagram at pure balanced as well as their blog and online store, which is pure balanced.com. We want you to be able to experience their incredible stuff yourself. So for our listeners, use code alchemy 20 for 20% off your purchase and be sure to listen to founder Ali's story on episode two of this season. Hi. Hello. So we've been together for like the entire day and finally like, Oh, I guess it's time to sit down in her card. Are you excited? I am so excited. Okay. Um, before we crack on, I've been doing this little thing with guests where we take a breath together before we go and I was wondering if you wanted to do that, that would be lovely. Okay. Do you want me to lead or do you want to lead? You lead? Okay, we're going to close. Her eyes were nice and comfy on our chairs and if you feel like it would serve you to place a hand on your chest or your belly or both, you're welcome to do that. If you feel like you're enjoying your hands being in your lap or on your knees, you're welcome to do that too. And then together we're just going to take a nice big breath in through the nose, inside out, gently through the mask.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

let's do that again. Nice breath in through the nose. Gentle breath out through the mouth and then keep that breath flowing, but in your own delicious way. Just feeling the seat underneath us, the way that your legs are supporting you and letting them be supportive, but letting them be a bit softer. Thinking about the base of your pelvis physically, it's what's keeping us up, right? It's propping us up what we're sitting on, but spiritually, it's where we store a lot of information. So maybe just tapping into that a little bit. Noticing the way that our weight is stacking on top of our pelvis, not judging,

Speaker 2:

maybe even letting it get heavy a little bit more. Get rooted a little bit more[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

checking in with the flow of our ribs as we inhale and exhale and letting those be free to move as well. Again, collecting this little weight heaviness pile, we're creating

Speaker 2:

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

eventually arriving at our head or neck, knowing that this is really exciting. So taking a second, if there are any muscles around our eyes or forehead around our jaw that would like to take a moment to find some ease cause I'm confident we're going to laugh and giggle a bunch.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

when you're ready you can gently open your eyes. Hi. I miss that. I miss having you as my teacher. Oh my gosh. I feel like, I feel like you've taught me so much today. It goes both ways, so I am so excited to be sitting with my friend, dr Jackie. Do you want to be dr Jackie the whole way through or just Jackie? Just Jackie. All right, but not just Jackie, like special. Amazing. Jackie who I really, I just feel so blessed to know you and I just think it's so funny. So Jackie and I knew each other from my days teaching in Burlington. I was teaching potties and she was coming as a student and it was such a treat. Some, I felt like there was a little while resign each other all the time. And then as schedules changed it was sort of in and out and every time I saw your name on my schedule I was like, Oh Hey Jackie's coming in. It was so fun. Um, and the whole time I knew you, you were working through your medical practice and all of that stuff cause you're a family doctor. And then I moved to the city, you traveled away and we've been reconnecting in this like totally different way, which is just blowing my mind on all of the magic that exists outside of traditional medicine in meditation and mindful movement and sound work and crystals and all of that that world has to offer. And I just think that you are, so I think you're so special anyway, but I think it is, it is so special and you're so uniquely positioned that you have interest, experience, education and like a foot in each of those worlds. And I think more and more that it's something that I know for myself is really important. Most of the practitioners I work with are either open to or actively part of something that's a little less traditional. And I think it's something that people are more learning about. And I also think that it's so amazing that you have this opportunity to share why both are so important to you as I think I can only imagine as the medical community is being faced with more and more people showing up maybe about mindfulness, meditation, yoga, spirituality, and not necessarily having experience or answers enter dr Jackie. So thanks for, we had such a lovely day. We did yoga this morning and then talked for like 1,000 hours and now we're like, Oh yeah, we have to record. So thank you for being here with me today. Thank you for having me here today. I'm really excited to get, to basically share the stories and the things that we've been talking about all day in terms of what's worked for us, what we love, um, and just kind of finding your own path through all of the different modalities that are out there. Amazing. So I mean, I can do my best to talk about medical stuff that it's really not going to be that great. So I think I'm going to leave that to you. Would you like to walk us through a little bit of like your path and then we can get into how that path has changed?

Speaker 3:

So it's a bit of a funny thing in terms of how meditation and spirituality came into my life because it's almost like that was there for me before I even made the decision to go into medical school and become a doctor. Um, I was very lucky in that, um, I have an Asian or a Buddhist background, not that my family ever practice Buddhism in a, in a formal kind of way, but there were just these fundamental truths that I grew up with. Not questioning, like the idea that there is something greater than ourselves, um, that there is the human body and then there's energy around things. And that was just something that I intrinsically grew up with and never in a practicing way. And I think that it was actually, um, lucky that we weren't practicing in any kind of framework. It was just like, this is this, these were the truths about the world. Um, and as I, you know, as we're growing up and imagining like, what is it that you want to do when you grew up? For me it was always about wanting to work with people and help people in some way. Um, and somewhere in that, um, becoming a doctor was just the path that I decided to take. And I remember when I first went to medical school after having done an entire like bachelor's in like life sciences, which is kind of like premed. Um, I went there thinking that I would arrive and find out all of the answers that I ever had to the questions about, you know, why are people sick? Why don't people feel well in their bodies or their minds or their spirits. I thought that there would be answers there and there were certainly a lot of answers. Um, but there was a part of me that felt that there was an aspect, at least in terms of my own curiosity that wasn't really being addressed by the physical science. I think medicine began as a much more holistic practice than what it's become now. And I think when we discovered science and instruments to measure things, we got very attached to only the physical only things that we can see, only things that we can prove with some study or some machine that some genius down in Silicon Valley discovered. Um, and I think the reality is that doctors have taken on the role as the people who only work within science. But, um, when I think about my colleagues, when I think about my own practice, all the other aspects, taking care of people's minds and their hearts and their spirits or their energy, if that's something that you believe in, it's happening. It's just not happening in a conscious way or at the forefront. And for me as a family doctor for the past few years, I have had the distinct pleasure of being able to kind of walk along with people and their families through their journeys of happy things and not so happy things and um, illness and health. And what I found for myself is that whether people were coming in with a cold or they were coming in with something much bigger than that, um, what I was always talking to them about was about what their internal experience was. So not so much about, you know, physically what's happening. Although that was certainly a part of my job. The part that really drew me in that I found I was doing all of the time was talking to people about how they felt about what was happening to them. And that a lot of the pain and the suffering that people experience through their health challenges is not only about how they're limited by their bodies or what's physically going on, but how that's affected them and how that's made them feel. Um, and the only way that I knew how to address that, um, was by sharing with people the tools that worked for me, which were yoga, meditation and an understanding that we are more than our physical bodies and our present experience. Just feel like I wanna do like a, like an amen. I can, I've had a few friends go through medical school, various places for different things. And for most of them I feel like there's this very interesting dance of, they're very analytical, they're very intellectual, but also creative, like part dance teams or drawing

Speaker 1:

or film or acting or singing and all of that stuff. And so I'm wondering as you're going through school and thinking about like, are these the answers to my questions or are these just answers to any questions? Knowing that you like this other stuff? Did you ever, as you were learning, did you ever have doubts? Like, do you feel like it started from markable that

Speaker 3:

you got to be absolutely. Absolutely. I had doubts. Um, and, and really the delts weren't about, you know, do I believe this or, um, is science real? But I, I had doubts about whether who I was as a human being was really suited for, um, a profession that is very, very fast paced and very intense and very high pressure. Um, when you go through medical school, you kind of spend weeks to months in different kind of areas of medicine. And it was very, very clear to me from the very beginning that like I should definitely not be in an operating room and definitely not to be in the emergency room. And, um, what ultimately landed me in family medicine was the fact that I wanted to work with kind of whole people. I wanted to understand people's contexts and their stories and see how, um, kids were with their parents and that kind of thing. And it was the one place where I felt that, um, naturally there was this intersection of body, mind and spirit that, you know, if you're a surgeon and you are dealing with life threatening surgery, like that's not really the place where you're addressing body, mind, spirit. That's very much body emergency.

Speaker 1:

See your situation. Totally. Yeah. That makes total sense. Yeah. And so as we're like chatting, we're literally in this absolutely stunning little plant jungle. I shouldn't say little, actually huge plant jungle and there are alters and singing bowls. Was this always happening or is this coming out more now? So it was a practice that was a part of my life. That was what kept me balanced and well through like 80 hour work weeks in medical school and[inaudible].

Speaker 3:

So you were meditating, meditating while I was at school. Can I ask what that look like? Um, so I was very lucky in the first year of medical school, um, there was a course called mindfulness based stress reduction that was being offered actually, um, to any like medical student, um, medical trainee and any staff at the hospital. So this was at Kingston general hospital. Cool. Um, and it was taught by, um, Dr. John Smith who is like the most phenomenal,

Speaker 1:

no

Speaker 3:

pediatric cardiologists. Like, I mean, this man takes care of tiny baby hearts, like seriously. Okay. Um, and I remember walking into that course, which was two and a half hours on a evening. Um, I think it was like Wednesdays or Thursdays on a evening. Um, and going through this program that was eight weeks, that was about how to meditate. So I had tried meditation, like guided meditation, um, the kinds of meditations that you do at the end of a yoga class perhaps. Um, those kinds of things. Um, for a very long time. Um, meditation was something that as a family we did in the setting of like everyone is really stressed out. We're all gonna stop and sit and take like 10 breaths together. Like that was how amazing. Um, it was in my family. But it really wasn't until I went through this MBSR program, um, that it really gave me a foundation to practice, um, because you would go for three hours and then you would have, um, home practice or suggestions of things that you were going to do. And, um, that eight weeks really gave me the foundation that I needed to start to understand what meditation could do for me. And also what worked for me when it came to meditation. Cause there's like a million different ways to meditate. There's a million different teachers and um, that time that was carved out, um, by that intention to kind of attend the eight week program, it really allowed me to know what worked for me, to help really bring myself back to myself. When you are working with patients now, do you talk to them about meditation? I do. Um, I talk to people about breath a lot. I often when things get very intense for people kind of like emotionally or physically, I often will bring meditation to the room in the setting of like, let's just take a moment and pause and take a deep breath in and out. Um, because we get very caught in our stories and our suffering sometimes. And, um, when I think about meditation, I think about meditation as being a state that you fall into. So it does begin as a practice for a lot of people. Like, you know, the, like I spoke about two and a half hours on a Wednesday evening, which turned into 15 minutes at the beginning of my day or 10 minutes before I went to bed. Um, but really where I think meditation has value is in real life and in finding that meditative state in those pockets or moments in your day to day that you need it. Um, and it's literally as simple as a breath. It'll be all start with breath. We all start with, I'm sitting here just thinking about like how grateful I am to know you and how eloquently you speak about this, but you have had practice speaking about meditation because you're not just in the medical side. You also now teach meditation as well. Yeah. What was your journey into taking that two and a half hour class to being a medical student but then also continually exploring this other side? Um, it was, it really made a fundamental difference for me in my life when, when I started to practice on a regular basis, um, because it gave me those pockets in the midst of everything to just feel myself and really connect to what was going on inside of me. Um, and then I was hungry. I was hungry for more, I wanted more and I wanted to learn more. And I was very fortunate to have found, um, a teacher, um, in Brampton of all random places while I was living in Kingston. Just one of those wonderful like friend of a friend I think you should talk to and meet. Um, so I met, um, my teacher at that way who had had a really amazing experience studying meditation in India. And so on one of my summers off I thought now or never. And I offer medical school offer medical school, um, in that, cause the lovely thing about being a student, um, is that you always get your kind of, um, July, August. So I decided that I would go to India, um, to this place to experience like a retreat. So, um, what it's like to meditate for 14 days, um, and to learn the practices from a place that has a long tradition of practice, um, and to explore meditation that would, maybe wasn't coming from a scientific basis, let's say. Um, and once I was there and had experienced it, it was just something that I wanted more of and continued to do and learn. And when I became a family doctor and opened my practice and started to practice, um, it became so clear to me that people needed to have a safe space where they were able to start to explore these kinds of mind body things if they wanted to. Um, and so that's when I started to look into doing training to become certified in mindfulness based stress reduction, which is that program that kind of got me on my journey and was wonderful in that it was so accessible to a room full of highly analytical scientific people who, whether they had had any experiences with kind of energy or spirituality or some of the like holistic wellness world. What was phenomenal to me is that meditation is really about your experience. It's not, it's something that I can talk about and we can read about and we can do all that kind of stuff, but ultimately it's something that needs to be experienced for a person and in their body. Um, and MBSR is a program that allows people to do that, right?

Speaker 1:

Mindfulness based stress reduction allows people to do that. Um, regardless of kind of what their belief system is, if you have never done yoga, if you have never even thought about a mind body connection, it's accessible. It's something that you can teach and it gives people the opportunity to have dedicated, safe space with other people who are on a similar journey, um, to experience meditation for themselves. It's interesting cause they, I had never thought before really much about, um, seeing words in another language because to me, I, I always just felt like, okay, well, like I grew up Catholic until high school or I would, I shouldn't say I grew up Catholic. I was in a Catholic elementary school until high school. And so prayers and singing, I always liked the ritual of, of group singing. Like I really enjoyed being in choir. I loved all of that stuff. Um, but I didn't necessarily like care about what I was saying. So I sort of felt the same when I was in yoga classes and we would even something as sacred as ohm, you know, like it just felt like, well that's what we do. We chant and it's our opportunity. I felt it more like it served a purpose energetically to bring people in. And I didn't think as much about the actual word, although now that's a much bigger part of my practice is really diving into Sanskrit and understanding the potency of what we're saying. But when I was in India doing my 200 hour, um, which I didn't stay and do, but different story for a different day, I had a girl who we became really good friends and she was from, um, Saudi Arabia. And the fact that she could even go to India by herself was already a huge thing. And she and I started chatting about this, about chanting and prayer and meditation and that stuff because she had had an experience where she loves yoga, like the practice of yoga she loves, but because of her religion and like culturally, she's very sensitive to the idea of speaking words that are prayerful in not her sense of what that is. And it was just so interesting because it's something I'd never thought about. And I do think sometimes with meditation, um, we can, we can become so invested in creating an experience, giving beautiful images, talking about things that I think sometimes that's not actually what people need. Like they just need a safe space to like come into their body and we don't have to make it florally or Chante or use special words. It just has to be a safe, acceptable space X. yeah. Acceptable. That's not the word I want. Say a safe, accessible, that's what I want. Yes. Space for people. So it's interesting how something so simple can have so many layers to it, I think. Yeah. And I think that um,

Speaker 3:

depending on like your cultural background or where you came from or what your belief system is and your level of openness, um, I think that really colors your experience. And you know, um, I myself have been in yoga classes that are beautiful yoga classes with beautiful yoga teachers, um, who then start to introduce some of the mantra and the chanting. And I have had moments where it takes me out of my practice, even though like I'm doing Y T T I've gone to India, um, for meditation, but there is something, um, about feeling safe by being in a familiar experience. And so I think if you were totally brand new and totally exploring where you are simply just saying, you know, I'm really stressed out and I need something that I can do whenever, wherever for myself to help myself, um, to go to something as fundamental as a breath and to, you know, leave some of the spiritual chalk rom mantra kind of stuff behind I think can be really, really valuable. All of those things are really potent, but people need to discover for themselves what's potent for them, what helps them to feel safe and calm and present and in their bodies. That's going to be mantra for some people. And mantra is going to do the total opposite for somebody else. So what I appreciate about MBSR and where it was in my journey was that it kind of gave me a foundation to start to learn who am I as a meditator? What works for me, what does my body like, what does my brain like? And then to kind of go in that direction to um, search for those things and try those things and evolve in my practice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Like it doesn't have to be not everything has to be a challenge. It's allowed to be easy. Like ease is good. I remember we had a conversation and if you're comfortable sharing it here, I would love to do that. Cause I was asking you about the fact that you have these beautiful parallels of worlds and that you were noticing in your medical practice you were taking the time with patients and then kind of started getting in trouble for it. And it was really eyeopening to me that I feel like sometimes we put a lot of blame on doctors because they're the front lines that we see it where it's like, well why is it always a quick visit? Why am I in and out? Like why can't I spend more time? And then you shared something with me that I didn't know. If you're happy sharing about like the rules in Ontario, I think it's just Ontario. I don't know if it's everywhere, but,

Speaker 3:

so I am by no means a policy expert at all. But what I can say as a general rule is that, um, all doctors are held to certain metrics. So we have certain statistics, um, where they're looking at how many patients are we seeing per day. Um, how long are those visits? Um, are the visits that we're seeing, appropriate visits, all those kinds of things. What does that even mean? Inappropriate, aren't they all appropriate? Well, um, so the example that I can give is like as a family doctor or my role is to theoretically, um, meet people, find out what it is that is going on. If I, and if I can't figure it out, I should be passing them off to somebody else.

Speaker 4:

And

Speaker 3:

what was happening in my practice, I think just because of the person that I am and the way that I communicate is that I was falling into a lot of kind of like counseling appointments or people would come in for like they're cold and then suddenly we'd be talking about like their grandfather that like passed away like six months ago and how that's affecting them, those kinds of things. And um, it became a real challenge because I was doing all this counseling where I really wasn't meant to be doing counseling. What I meant to be doing is diagnosing your colds and deciding whether or not you need medication or if you don't need medication. Making the suggestions in terms of how you can, um, manage physically. My role is not actually to sit down with you for 30 minutes and talk to you about how you're dealing with the grief of losing your grandfather. That's not how the healthcare system at this present moment in time is designed. And part of it is the fact that there are so many people who need to see a doctor. And I think what Ontario healthcare system kind of says is, um, people can get the help for their grief about their grandfather from a million different places, but they can only get a prescription for an antibiotic if they have pneumonia from you. So your job is to see as many people as possible and move those people who are sick and need to be seen through. And what that means is that we don't have the luxury to sit down and have those conversations necessarily when I have a waiting room of like 20 other people, all of with coughs and colds who I need to figure out whether they need antibiotics or not. It's challenging too because you want to take that time to, with your patient to explain things and find out what's going on. But you also have 20 other people that like need to be seen. And I think that that's what drives physicians a lot. Um, these days is trying to get through as many people as they can because they need to. Do you feel like that frustration that you are starting to feel, I mean I might've just put the words frustration on you, but I sense that from you that it was frustrating. Do you feel like a lot of physicians feel that frustration? Absolutely. Absolutely. And cardless of whether they're like into meditating or not. Everyone just wants more time. I think as a general, we all would love to have, he were pressures on us, whether that's time or you know, financially in terms of like hospital resources and all those kinds of things. Um, burnout in the physician community is very much real. Um, and I think that part of that is because we're trying to, um, manage some very complicated, real economical social kind of issues, um, while trying to take care of people one person at a time in the best way that we can.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting that the exact space that we put this pillar of health on is also the same space where burnout and mental health can have its own, not so beautiful place. Yeah, absolutely. Have you had this conversation with other physicians or colleagues about mindfulness is fun or does it sort of just feel like we've done the thing, we've done our education, this is what we're doing, this is what we should do? Or do you feel like there's more openness to it? I'd be so curious. I think we're actually, I feel very lucky AKI

Speaker 3:

to kind of be in medicine and come in at the time that I have because I think in the medical community we are now to kind of circle all the way back. We now actually have tools to start to measure the benefits of some of these like holistic wellness, um, ancient practices. Um, so I do think that we're kind of coming full circle and I think that it's a huge movement, um, in the medical community to just start to look at some of these things like meditation and say, okay, is there value here and what exactly is the value and can we understand it with science so that we can start to utilize it to help people to be well. Um, so I think that there is an openness to it. I think as a general rule, physicians as a bunch, we're fairly type a, we have spent many, many years, um, worshiping at the altar of science. And so, um, I think that if you can show a doctor that it's safe and that, um, there is some measurable benefit, then I think that people become very, very open to it. I also think that, um, doctors are human beings as well. I think that there is a culture in medicine that you have to maybe not show all the soft underbelly parts, uh, because people respond to a certain kind of certainty and leadership that they've come to expect from like the medical profession. But I liked that you added a little sassy shoulder to that. I know no one can see it, but I saw it. But, um, I do think that when you spend all day kind of taking care of people, you start, it starts to become very clear that you are taking care of yourself as like extremely important. Um, and I think as that movement is happening is we're seeing burnout as, you know, medical schools are saying we need to be training physicians differently because burnout is so prevalent. Um, we're starting to see more and more initiatives like the one that I was a part of when I was a medical student, you know, it was kind of like one, here's this program that's available for you if you want, like, phenomenal. Do you feel it? I'll like you have the medical hat, dr Jackie person, and then you have your like meditation Jackie, and then you're like yoga Jackie. And then the, do you feel like you're working in a world of all of these different versions? I do. I think we've talked about, um, me having a little bit of an identity crisis. Like even in terms of like, how do I introduce myself? Like, is what I'm doing? Is it medicine or is it not? Um, what I'm recognizing more and more and what I'm working on, on my own journey is kind of understanding that these are really one in the same thing. And I've started to recognize that I don't really treat yoga or meditation any differently than I would treat, um, antibiotic medication that I would give somebody. I think that we're in a space in time where there are so many tools that are available, like almost an overwhelming number of tools that are available. And that I have been really lucky to have had the opportunity to kind of learn and study all these different modalities so that when someone comes and sits in front of me, um, that I have the ability to maybe suggest of the many, many modalities that are out there. Um, what might work and what might not be so safe to do right now. And I think that, that, that my medical career especially has given me the opportunity to walk through so many journeys with people. Um, and understand that there really is no one size fits all. It's just about what's going to help you the most at this moment. Um, and sometimes that means sitting in my office and taking people through breathwork or sometimes that means I'm looking at a yoga class and gently going over and suggesting that like perhaps that chaturanga and your Vinyasa flow is not something that we want to work on today with your body the way it is today. Um, I'm trying to get to a place where I see myself as all of those things at once. I, yes, we are, what does that saying? We're made of Stardust in magic and stuff like, yeah, I have been learning that when you're at like a networking event, I feel like at the first thing you sort of do is Oh, I'm this person and this is my business and you have your like quick elevator pitch. But outside of that I really try to not ask people what they do partially because I know that I get really excited talking about my stuff and I know that we get really excited, but I know there are people who are like not ready for that level of excitement because most people, it's a bold statement but a lot of people I feel like don't actually feel that way about what they're doing. So we kind of ask these questions offhandedly, but human beings are such complex beings that we can totally be more than one thing and I think it's doing yourself a disservice by feeling like you can only be one version of yourself. Like why not be the million things that make you happy because you only get one life. Plus there's so many gifts waiting for us as individuals, but then also to give other people at the end of those gifts. I'm just mostly, I'm just getting to the point that I'm so excited for you that you're like, yeah, I'm all of these things. It's like no problem at all. I've really started to ask myself and really look at like language and labels just as a general, um, like[inaudible] huge concept in my life in the sense that like I noticed I would say that when I was a medical student and I was having, um, dealt for moments or I had this like secret life where I was like doing yoga and super engine meditation and like of like read about chalk Rez and I was like, Oh my God, I hope, let, like nobody finds out that this is happening. What I would notice is that if like somebody said to me, Oh yeah, I practice yoga suddenly felt I felt like super safe, which is kind of hilarious because just because they practice yoga does not mean in any way shape or form that they have the same belief system as me. But somehow that label kind of like gave me a false sense of comfort. And in the same way that labels I think give us a false sense of comfort. I think that they also encourage separation. Right. Um, so I'm trying to be really mindful about that. I have not figured out my elevator pitch yet. Please help send help. It changes every time I go to a different event, I say it a little bit differently and I'm like, maybe this one will stick. Um, but I think that it's, it would be really lovely if we could start learning to approach people to find out, you know, like how are they doing in this moment right now? What are they really excited a bit excited about? What did they do yesterday that they're really into? Because that's really the juicy stuff that we want to get in that we want to get at the labels are[inaudible] to help us get a sense of understanding or a sense of safety or a sense of sort of common ground. But as a label or what your job is or what you're, you know, getting paid to do. Is that really what we want to know? Yeah. Is that like going to give me the most information about you? Yeah. So if some of them are going to be like, okay, so let's pretend[inaudible] right, right now cause why not? And like we're meeting at a dinner party or something. I'm like, hi, I'm Dom. Nice to meet. Yeah. Hi Dom. I'm Jackie. Hey Jackie. Nice to meet you. You have a really lovely smile. Thank you. Do you do things that makes you smile? Maybe not so creepy. I mean, not some great. Um, you know, I like plants. Hurry so often. Same love plants. What did you enjoy most about at dinner today? Um,

Speaker 1:

like real time though. We actually did go check out a new grocery store to bring it right back to real life. Uh, there's a new grocery store and we were both really excited about it. Had some excellent soup. It is hard that way to be like, Oh, what do I say if I'm not immediately like this is it. And especially if you're in things that feel like they're already not maybe associated with each other. Like, cause I'm sure if you were to say like I'm a doctor, people would want to talk to you about dr Ethan. But then if you say, I do yoga and movement and sound work, then people would want to ask you those kinds of questions. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

it is hard though. But I think the thing that's also funny, um, is that when we interact with people, uh, like even in a conversation, I find myself noticing that what we're talking about is either stuff that has already happened or stuff that is going to happen. We're all talking about our past and our futures and our stories. And as a meditation teacher, as someone who's teaching yoga, on the one hand here I am doing this stuff in my social life because that's what we do. And then I go into class and then tell people to kind of come into the present moment and you know, feel the breath in their body. And, um, I talk about mindful eating and mindful walking and I think to myself, am I doing that gap or as my comfort zone to talk about all the things that I did yesterday and all the things I'm going to do tomorrow. A hundred percent a hundred percent and that's why it's practice. I know.

Speaker 1:

That's why it's practice. I love that same practice makes better and not practice. Makes perfect. Yeah. Um, so I'm like just such an anatomy person, so I'm like super curious about this. But you study, you're in medical school, you do all these things and then now you're doing your yoga teacher training and you're looking at the body. I mean obviously one medical school is like so much more intensive than the other, but they are both looking at the body but in super, super different ways. Do you feel like that's been interesting at all to just sort of like flip hats and still be looking at the body but be looking at it?

Speaker 3:

Yes, absolutely. Um, so I went to Queens university, excellent medical school. We had a big anatomy program, but when I did the anatomy section of Y T T it blew my mind. Like I went back into my clinic and it just gave me a whole other perspective on bodies and body mechanics. Because in medical school, what you're, when you look at bodies, you're looking at bodies asking the question, what's wrong with this body? And then to go into yoga teacher training and to do the anatomy section and learn it. Like how can we facilitate movement in this body was like a total turning my head upside down. Um, and to look at bodies and kind of a dynamic way and movement. And I recently did a restorative, um, teacher training with[inaudible], um, who will be on his podcast at one point or another if she hasn't already when this comes out. Um, and she taught us anatomy, but what she taught us was to look and feel people's bodies and to feel the body as opposed to thinking about a body structurally was just a really, really amazing experience for me. That, um, in some ways felt familiar because I recognize that as a doctor I actually am doing that all of the time. I'm feeling people's bodies. I just didn't realize that that's what I was doing. So to have a framework and an opportunity to learn, to kind of flex my brain and my body in that way was really, really wonderful. It's so, it's so interesting a how like you can take the same subject and depending on how you sort of turn it around, it becomes something totally different. Yeah. The perspective and the, your intent and kind of looking at things really makes a huge difference. Do you start to feel like that's something that should be more implemented into medical school? That's a really good question. I think it really depends on where you're wanting to take your medical career. If you are a surgeon, you should be looking at things structurally to like a microscopic level and that's what's important. Um, I think what's interesting in being a family doctor is that probably 70% of the people who walk through my office are feeling unwell in their bodies, but they don't have a medical diagnosis. And so I think for me, learning to assess the body in terms of looking at wellness as opposed to like a diagnosis, um, that was really helpful for me because that's a lot of what I deal with and what I see. Interesting. So I think that it really depends on the lens that you're coming from. And your intent in terms of how you want to be working with people. Cause the reality is, um, if somebody comes in to see me and they're having back discomfort and I know that nothing is broken but that's something's going on with their alignment or their soft tissues and our muscles, I am not the expert on that. Absolutely. Please go and see a physiotherapist or an osteopath, somebody who was literally spent years of their life looking at the muscles and the soft tissues of their body. Right. Um, so I think that it's important to recognize that the medical profession and the doctors in this sort of healthcare system, we play a very specific role. And right now that role is kind of like, do you need medication? Do you need some sort of intervention? Is this dangerous life threatening? That's kind of the role that we've taken because we have the privilege of having all of these other sort of allied health professionals who are able to help with, um, nothing is broken but things aren't functioning well for me. I got distracted for a second. When you said allied health, I have just thought someone needs to make that their business and maybe it'll be me. Cause I that's so I, that's just such a perfect way to put it. It is allied. It's not in competition or instead of it's in conjunction with. Right. Um, there are some cool programs happening though with medical doctors and meditation, mindfulness that you introduced me to you and I couldn't even believe it was like literally in my hometown and I'd never known about it. If you are allowed to, if you'd like to speak to this program, it's pretty stinking cool. So the beauty of mindfulness based stress reduction, having been around for 40 years and having been studied at like Harvard and like a bajillion different places, is that the medical community at large has, um, accepted that this is, could be considered a form of like psychotherapy. And so there are, um, psychiatrists and family doctors like myself who teach this, um, eight to 12 week program depending on, um, the lens that you want to use or your approach. Um, and that's OHIP covered, let's say it again for the people in the back. Oh, hip covers it. Yeah. So we'll have covered, um, and what it is, it's either somewhere between eight to 12 weeks, um, you spending sort of three hours a week with a doctor or physician who has been trained and kind of mindfulness based meditation, um, working through that program so that you can build your own meditation practice and experience the benefits of meditation for you. Um, we talked a little bit about how I find this to be like a little bit of kind of a backwards comical thing that um, almost every ancient tradition has some form of meditation and yet it takes Harvard publishing a study about the benefits of meditation to allow us to begin to consider that as part of health. It's just, I guess how we're operating. It is backwards and hilarious. It's backwards. I'm hilarious. But I also, I also, um, have great respect for it because what the research has taught us is that meditation is for all but may not be appropriate for all depending on where you are. Meditation can be harmful in some settings. Um, and we're learning what those settings are and why it might be dangerous from science. And I think one of the benefits of being able to participate in a program like MBSR is to have the opportunity to sit down with a psychiatrist or a family doctor to talk about what's going on with you and what your goals are with meditation. Whether mindfulness, meditation or meditation is really going to be helpful for you right now. So if you're someone listening and you're sort of like, yes, Oh my gosh, I got to do a meditation program with a medical professional and it's covered by OHIP, how do you even start that process? Um, so what I would suggest is that you look up MBSR, mindfulness based stress reduction and then wherever a city community are in to see what programs are being offered. It is a program that's offered by lots of different professionals, coaches, um, social workers, psychotherapists. And then there are some physicians who are starting to do it as well. And the benefit of, um, doing it with a physician is just the OHIP coverage. Um, I am currently, I'm working in Oakville at uh, the mindfulness center, um, where there are a number of physicians who are offering, um, the mindfulness based stress reduction program as an expanded 12 week program, um, which has started to introduce some really cutting edge new neuroscientific work into kind of the meditation world. And I myself will be offering an eight week mindfulness based stress reduction, the traditional program in Burlington this spring. Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. Do you feel like now these multiple personalities are starting to not just come together for you and acceptance but also like come out into the worlds yeah. As a combined effort? Yeah. I think I finally kind of come to a place where I am recognizing that if we want these really amazing modalities like yoga and meditation to kind of come into the mainstream, it starts with people who are in the mainstream coming out and speaking about it and speaking about the benefits and for my own personal journey for me to come out and be honest about who I am and what I believe in and in the hopes that you know, somebody somewhere who may have been in the same place that I was when I was going through medical school or even um, patients or people who are feeling frustrated with kind of their experience of the medical system. For them to know that, um, there is an openness here and that there are people here who are all of those things I think is really, really important. Um, I'm really grateful as well to kind of my own patients in my own practice in terms of how, um, excited and supportive they've been with me in terms of when I've opened up about meditation or talked about the fact that I was going to be starting to offer those classes to recognize that there was value to that for people. Um, really made me,

Speaker 5:

yeah,

Speaker 3:

put a fire under me to kind of say, okay, it's time for you to share this and share yourself because otherwise you're just sitting at home on your meditation mat. I'm experiencing meditation's benefits just for yourself. So if you could look back at either like young student Jackie who felt like she had to be one or the other, or if there's anyone listening who feels like they have to pick one or the other. Do you have any, like if you take away nothing else, just know this for anyone going through something like that. What I would say is that the idea of being scientific versus spiritual, to just erase that boundary from your mind because it's just a bunch of labels and to F find those safe spaces where you can start to speak about what it is that you're passionate about and recognize that we're coming into a day in age where there is much, much less judgment about these kinds of things. I love that. Thank you for, thank you for her coming out of that, that feeling of you had to be one or the other and just being everything that you are because it's pretty magical. And I had gotten, I just, I feel so grateful to know you and, and I feel really grateful that you exist, that there are practitioners like you who exist because you're so right. Science and spiritual don't have to be different things. They are both magical in their own right and work so well together. Where can people find you if they want to keep hearing all your magical wisdom? I'm so, I'm getting a website up. Um, and that's Kayla living, K E a L a living.com. Um, and there are people can find a listing and kind of where they can find me in terms of yoga, teaching and soundbath and um, also the meditation courses that, um, myself and other doctors are offering as well. Amazing. And do you want to do Insta or no? Insta. I'm having a little bit of an identity crisis, social media. So right now it's going to be the website. Okay. We're hopefully, um, there'll be a blog there as well so that people can kinda hear a little bit about my, um, personal experiences in addition to kind of where they can find me. But no one's to right now. That's cool. Do you want you to just cause I think it's so cool. Explain just very quickly and then we'll say by about what your name, the website name means. Okay. Um, so K Ella is the Hawaiian word for pap lane, which I just think is, um, a beautiful metaphor for what it is that I'm hoping to help people with to not necessarily tell them what to do, but help to guide them down their own journey and their own pathway. Um, there is a personal meaning to it for me as well in that, um, I had a very profound moment in my life where I had the realization that uh, I couldn't continue to kind of separate myself as like dr Jackie and Yogi meditation kind of spiritual Jackie. Um, and that happened in a place, um, in a beautiful, beautiful place on the big Island of Hawaii called Kayla Kobe, um, which is like a really phenomenal place where you can get in the water and suddenly there's like 50 dolphins around you, wild dolphins. Um, and so the name is a tribute to that, to my own pathway and my desire to help be a guide for other people on theirs. I'm literally gonna cry. I just love you so much. Thank you for thank you for chatting today and thank you for sharing. Uh, it was such a beautiful experience to be able to reconnect and share with you today. Um, and I think people are so lucky to come across you in the safe space that you are creating for people in real life as you teach. And then also with this podcast as well. Um, this is not something I do on a daily basis, but you have such a beautiful special energy that made this possible for me to just come out and tell my story and I love watching you share yours. Oh my gosh. Okay. We need to stop before I, before we love her. Um, let's just keep hanging out and I can't wait to see all of so many big beautiful things are happening and I I feel very grateful to get to share that as I'm on my pathway. And you're on yours. I feel like they're both blooming and that's pretty special. Okay. All the warm fuzzies. Like I'm going to keep that noise. Then I could edit it out and I'm not going to because just so many warm fuzzies. If you are curious. Furthermore, I would like to work with Jackie. She has an eight week Oh hip covered.

Speaker 1:

So if you're in Ontario in the area and want to work with her, it is covered by your health insurance. Eight week OHIP hip covered mindfulness based stress reduction program. It's starting May 14th and runs until June 24th on Wednesday evenings and it's in water down at the yoga Shala, so water down is like just outside of Toronto, Hamilton. Um, if you're in the area and want to do that, the registration is open right now but it is closing in mid April or when the session is full. But either way, if you would like to register for that or just stay in touch, you can follow Jackie at Kayla, which is K E a L a living.com. I will also have that in the show notes and if you would just love to work with her and doing some yoga flowing and doing some meditation, some sound bath emergence, you can catch her at yoga Shala in Waterdown beginning in April. I hope you loved this episode. If you did, please feel free to five-star ass to leave a super yummy, thoughtful review or you can send them to me. I am at Dom Chesh or I also manage the podcast Instagram page, which is at embodied alchemy dot pod. I hope you have a super fab rest of your day. Maybe you do a little bit of mindfulness today, or maybe you get to just like combine all the personalities that you feel like you are and just get to be the big super you that you are meant to be because we only have one life, so we might as well get to be all of our pieces because that's what the world wants from you. I know that. That's what I'm working on, so we can work on that together. I love you and I'll see you next week. Bye.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible].

Tempo: 120.0