E236: Angels with Dirty Faces: Amber Hollingsworth on Seeing the Good in Addiction

What if the person you love isn’t broken—just buried under addiction?

In this powerful episode, I sit down with addiction counselor and YouTube creator Amber Hollingsworth of Put The Shovel Down to talk about something we don’t hear enough in recovery: how to actually help a loved one struggling with addiction—without enabling or playing the villain.

Amber shares insight from two decades of working with addicts and their families, including:

• Why tough love often backfires
• The dangers of playing the “bad guy” role
• How denial is a defense mechanism, not defiance
• The strategy she teaches to gently nudge someone toward recovery
• What really motivates change—and what pushes people away

Whether you’re sober yourself or trying to help someone who isn’t, this conversation will shift your mindset and give you tools you can use today.

🔗 Check out Amber’s YouTube channel: Put The Shovel Down

Transcript

Amber Hollingsworth: 0:00

And worse than that, you're playing what I call a baggy roll. And all that person is ever thinking about is you or their problem. And that's, and I know this from all these years of seeing people in counseling, if you are still playing the baggy roll, even if you get them into my office, you're going to be paying me money for them so they're going to complain about you. That's what's going to happen. And I can't get them to talk about anything about their life until that family member gets out of the baggy roll because they just villainize you and they just feel like you're unfair and you're trying to control them and you're judging them. And nothing they ever do is good enough for you. Like, these are all the things that I hear all the time. And so you got to get out of that roll. You got to get out of the villain roll and into the, I'm on your side roll. While simultaneously letting some of those consequences.

Matt: 0:48

Today's SuperFriends podcast is brought to you by Moosey Bill. Moosey Bill bought us five coffees to keep us extra caffeinated and more importantly to keep this show rolling. Moosey Bill believes that it's important for the new guy or gal to have something in their ear to have strong recovery. And if you are like Moosey Bill and you want to help us out, you can go to buy me a coffee.com/soberfriendspod. Soberfriends podcast. My name is Matt J and we have a great guest for you today. I have been trying basically based on your feedback to us to get more guests on specifically more female guests. And what we have on the show today is Amber Hollingsworth. Amber has a YouTube channel, which is called Put Down the Shovel. So you can go to youtube.com/@putdowntheschavvol. Amber Hollingsworth is a drug counselor and she has been doing this all of her life. She has great content on her channel. And what we're specifically talking about today is the family of those who are in recovery. Amber is going to talk a lot about how she actually came from a family of addicts. We talk a lot about what are the things that you can do if you suspect you love one has a problem. And the things you really shouldn't do. We talk a lot about her channel. This is just a conversation where we get a different perspective. I think you're really gonna love this one. Alright, now it's time to hear from Amber. My guest today is Amber Hollingsworth. Amber is a licensed counselor and addiction counselor and you can find her excellent YouTube channel. Put the shovel down. Amber, welcome to the Sober Friends podcast.

Amber Hollingsworth: 3:05

Hey, Matt. Than for having me. Happy to be here.

Matt: 3:07

I'm happy to have you here. We have been trying to do a couple things. Based on some feedback from our audience. One, more women on the show, less dudes because people want to hear a woman's point of view. And two, this is my personal thing. I want to hear more about the family of addiction. I want to talk about that other aspect of addiction, of not just, this is how you help the alcoholic of you being a listener, but you may have family members who are alcoholics. How do you help them? And that is often the case with us alcoholics. That

Amber Hollingsworth: 3:51

Yeah.

Matt: 3:51

we are trying to help other people who are alcoholics, or you might just be listening that you are, you've got family members. That's really what I want to talk to you about.

Amber Hollingsworth: 4:02

Great point, because you would assume if you've been there, that you would know all right tips and tricks on how to help someone else, but it's not necessarily the case to be honest.

Matt: 4:14

No,

Amber Hollingsworth: 4:15

sometimes because you've been there, you spot it so easily and you have a lot of fear and anxiety and you know where this road ends and so that

Matt: 4:23

fear

Amber Hollingsworth: 4:24

can trigger you to jump the gun and want to push too fast, which backfires, unfortunately.

Matt: 4:33

Yeah, I might own experience in going to 12 step groups that everything is a nail and I'm a hammer of, listen, you dummy, you better stop. You better start going to meetings, you're out of here.

Amber Hollingsworth: 4:46

Yeah.

Matt: 4:48

That doesn't quite

Amber Hollingsworth: 4:50

work. Right.

Matt: 4:50

So tell me a little bit about your background. What got you to this place where you help people with addiction and help family members with addiction?

Amber Hollingsworth: 5:03

Well, honestly, I sort of just ended up here by accident. I come from an addicted family as in everyone in my family. SCREEN PANTS, WHEN SCREEN PANTS, CISTER ALL OVER THE PLACE, ADEICTION. Uhm, but honestly didn't even realize that until I was already in the field, as crazy as that sounds. Do you think that in me, whether it was like in private counseling or even when I worked in the hospital in detox and in tens of outpatient, those sort of things, they don't wanna be there. And they are usually leveraged there somehow, which is totally fine. But, you know, the obstacle isn't explaining to someone how to get sober. The obstacle is helping motivate someone to get sober. And so, that's where all of my energy went from the get-go, is trying to figure out how do I engage people in this process who don't wanna be here. My first gig was doing teenagers, and how to get them to show up three times a week for three hour sessions, and that wasn't a easy feat. And some of my entire goals, just how do I get these people to show up. And luckily that taught me a lot about how do you engage people who either don't think they have a problem, or don't want help with that problem. And despite what everyone else says, there are actually a lot of things you can do to get through to someone who's struggling. It's just probably not the things that your instinct tells you to do.

Matt: 6:48

Oh, so I'm... I love the fact that you were working with teenagers. I just wish I could have been reached at that age, and I didn't have to suffer for so long. I'm just... I wonder how many of these people think? How many people who don't have drinking problems end up in front of an alcohol counselor that... If you have totally missed the both boat on this, you totally have no problem yet. Here you are sitting in the seat. Almost seems like sitting in that seat should be the sign that something's off.

Amber Hollingsworth: 7:25

I've seen it once or twice in that, but not very often. I've been doing this over 20 years, as far as someone ended up in my office that didn't really need to be. And that's usually a teenage kid who's got caught the first time in their parent's anthem in there. That's usually the case, but if usually if you're sitting in front of me, there's some level of reason that you're sitting in

Matt: 7:48

of me.

Amber Hollingsworth: 7:48

front

Matt: 7:48

Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I've ever met anybody who's gone to an AA meeting, and it's very clear that what are you doing here? Like you have no business being here. There's always something there. Oh, I want to talk through this denial. So what have you learned about this denial? Maybe talk about the things that don't work

Amber Hollingsworth: 8:12

for. Let's do that. So as far as getting through to someone in denial, I think that the first thing you gotta realize is that it's a protective, it's a defense mechanism,

Matt: 8:23

to

Amber Hollingsworth: 8:23

which is protect you. And so we get impatient and we just want to sort of rip the blanket off their eyes, you know, rip this blindfold away. But the more you try to do that, the more they cling to it because it is naturally designed to protect their ego from That they're not ready or sometimes even capable of acknowledging that. So instead of just trying to rip it off very quickly by telling someone that they have a problem and reminding them and showing them how they're ruining their life and yours and everyone else's. You have to create safety and trust for people to feel safe enough to take their own blindfold off.

Matt: 9:11

I look at that as an empathy piece.

Amber Hollingsworth: 9:15

Absolutely.

Matt: 9:15

One of the things that I do like about the book Alcoholics Anonymous is Bill talks a lot about don't tell the person why they're wrong or critique their drinking just have a conversation with them. Here's what it looked like for me. I just want to tell you my story. And that can lead to opening up a conversation or letting somebody hear a little bit that is similar to get them to identify.

Amber Hollingsworth: 9:43

that's a great,it's a great communication skill. I use that a lot with clients. I'll say, I don't really know if this is you but a lot of times, a lot of times you end up feeling like this or this happens and never like that's me. As opposed to if you try to say you know, I heard from your wife that this is going on. That's not going to work. But if you just throw it out there, I call it the leave it on the coffee table. They can pick it up if they want to

Matt: 10:08

Yeah,

Amber Hollingsworth: 10:08

method. Then usually they'll pick it up. But if you try to force it on, I don't want it.

Matt: 10:14

This feels so hard. I think about your role that you're much better skilled at this. You can't get somebody sober. If they don't want to get sober, no matter you could be the best therapist on the planet and have every tool, if they don't have some willingness to change and don't want no matter what's going on in their life, they're not going to you talked about your most one of your most recent videos. Somebody gave tough love and said you're out of the house. They thought that the person was going to circle back when they ran out of places to stay, which they did. B they would rather be homeless than get sober and they stayed away.

Amber Hollingsworth: 10:57

Absolutely. Because in our minds, it's like, well, if they experience enough consequences, if life gets hard enough, that's going to be their wake up call. And there's a tiny bit of truth in that the part. I do think it has to get uncomfortable for people. To get them to want to change is if it's still work, and they're probably not going to change. So it does have to get uncomfortable, but the definition of addiction is continuing to do it despite consequences. That's literally the definition. So if you think piling on a bunch of consequences is going to get someone sober, you're wrong, especially if they feel like you're the one dishing out the consequences because they view that as punishment and they don't really view that as a natural something that happened because of their choices. So they don't even see that as a consequence. They see that as I can't believe you did that to me.

Matt: 11:56

Yeah, victimization betrayal. And in that mindset, I would need to continue using to get through the pain that I'm feeling that you are delivering to me. You're expecting me to get sober. You just delivered a whole bunch of extra pain to me. I need that crutch even more.

Amber Hollingsworth: 12:17

Absolutely. Yeah. And when it comes to the whole homelessness piece. I mean, think of how many people are homeless right now. You'll drink in and drop in like probably the majority of people that are out there homeless to be honest.

Matt: 12:32

Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth: 12:32

And not all of them, but a lot of them. And that's not fixing the problem. And the danger in that is that actually once someone gets out there and they're out there long enough, it's not scary to them anymore.

Matt: 12:45

Right.

Amber Hollingsworth: 12:46

And they get comfortable with it. And so their chances of getting sober are actually a lot less than when they still have things to lose. I think that's not

Matt: 12:56

happened. I

Amber Hollingsworth: 12:56

what

Matt: 12:56

never really thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. That's that's sort of the story of addiction. That progressiveness of, well, I got really drunk. I took the day off from work because I was drunk and nothing happened. Then this really isn't that bad. That escalation of, well, I'm still alive, and I'm doing this. And nothing bad is happening, at least in my mind.

Amber Hollingsworth: 13:24

It's like the new normal right?

Matt: 13:25

Yeah, become,

Amber Hollingsworth: 13:26

is it?

Matt: 13:28

You only look back when you get sober later of like, Oh my God. What did I do?

Amber Hollingsworth: 13:33

Right. And one, one thing that I think families don't quite understand is, is that this person is under anesthesia. So they can't feel the weight of the consequences. The same as if you go to the dentist, right? And they, they numb you up or puts you under and they literally put a drill on your face, you know, cut you up and do all this terrible horrible stuff. You wake up. You don't remember any of it. You're not trying to husband buy it because you're under anesthesia. And it's the same thing when someone's operating at that level of addiction. They're either under some level of anesthesia at any given moment, or they're in withdrawal and they're too desperate to hear or think about anything. Anyways. So that's another reason why those consequences, even the really huge ones don't seem to get through to people.

Matt: 14:25

Amber, what's the path to somebody to get to you

Amber Hollingsworth: 14:29

to get to me?

Matt: 14:30

Yeah. How does that, how does somebody land in that chair in front of you?

Amber Hollingsworth: 14:34

Normally, um, their family member finds me and then their family member, uh, talks them into coming to see And a lot of what I do on YouTube is I teach family members how to engage the conversation and set it up to where you know exactly the right moment when to offer something and how to offer it. And it is a lot about timing and there's a lot of things that go involved in the process beforehand. And I learned this map because when I was first in private practice, people would call me up and they would say, Hey, I really want my so and so to see you with they don't want to come. And I spent a lot of time like on the phone, giving them the actual say these words. Do this, do this, do this, do this. And then they'll they'll get in there, whatever. And I realized that, you know, families need some help to figure out how to, how to get someone.

Matt: 15:29

Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth: 15:29

To even agree to something like that. even even even agree to it when they don't want to but even just get in the car and show up. Yeah.

Matt: 15:40

And my father-in-law has talked to me about my sister-in-law and he's kind of said well you know if you talk to her you know you'll fix her up. No no one I'm not gonna do that because I know she's not ready and two that's not how it works. If anything that's going to make them defensive but I also understand the impulse. Alright so let's play out this scenario I've got somebody in my life I'm really concerned I know you I know you're good at this I've seen your videos what should I do to try and get them ready to get in the car and go see you.

Amber Hollingsworth: 16:23

Well I think I think there's some things you can do to set the stage long before you even have the conversation so there's some pieces of it there's how do I set the situation of

Matt: 16:32

Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth: 16:32

and how do I have the conversation. So we'll start with how do I set the situation up. The formula that works to get people out of denial is the opposite of whatever you're probably doing right now. What you're probably doing right now, what most people are doing right now is that they're fixing the problems that the addiction is causing you know they're paying for the lawyers they're paying for more semesters of school, all the things you know they're calling into work, they're covering for them with their kids all the things. They're fixing all the external methods being made and they're being mad at that person inside their relationship and that's the worst possible combination because if you're fixing those external problems it's given that person a false impression that their life is manageable so you're not allowing that manageability to come forward. And worse than that, you're playing what I call a bag out role and all that person is ever thinking about is you are their problem and that's and I know this from all these years of seeing people in counseling if you are still playing the bag out role, even if you get them into my office you're going to be paying me money for them so they're complain about you. That's what's

Matt: 17:51

to be.

Amber Hollingsworth: 17:51

going

Matt: 17:51

Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth: 17:51

And I can't get them to talk about anything about their life until that family member gets out of the bag out of roll because they just villainize you and they just feel like you're unfair and you're trying to control them and you're judging them and nothing they ever do is good enough for you like these are all the things that I hear all the time and so you got to get out of that role, you got to get out of the villain role and into the I'm on side role while simultaneously letting some of those

Matt: 18:22

I think about the resentment that somebody would have I'm paying for all of this stuff. Almost like the reverse of the way alcoholics are you are putting in that resentment if I am doing all this stuff for you and this is a slap in the face to me and I didn't ask you to do it anyways.

Amber Hollingsworth: 18:43

Exactly. Yeah, that the family member is covering all a lot of the the bases for the person with the addiction. You know they're they're starting

Matt: 18:53

the.

Amber Hollingsworth: 18:53

to pick up as that addiction grows that'll be more and more and more slack. And so they're angry, they're resentful, causing them to be in that bad guy. I'm upset with you role. I'm nagging you role, I'm criticizing you role. And so it just that's all the person that struggling can think about it because you are the biggest problem that's in their face on a day-to-day basis. It's like you're blocking their vision from what the real problem is. So I like to imagine it like you see your loved one headed towards this cliff and at the bottom it was just giant spiky, I don't know nails or tigers or

Matt: 19:30

And

Amber Hollingsworth: 19:31

whatever you know. And so you're you're jumping in front of them and you're waving your arms, you're screaming don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. But you're what you're really doing is blocking their view and they're just thinking get out of my way crazy person. You know and if you just step aside they might could see what's up ahead. In fact usually do see what's up ahead. But you're inadvertently distracting them from seeing it there by keeping them out and check much longer than it would be.

Matt: 20:02

So I think I got off track here because there were a whole bunch of things that I found interesting. So a lot of things we shouldn't do. What are some real tangible things? I'm calling you, I've got a loved one. I don't want to do these ultimatums. What do I have to do to get them to be in a place where they might be willing to get in the car?

Amber Hollingsworth: 20:23

Okay so I can I can I can give you some sort of tactics to get them to agree to it. and I'll do that. But your best chance will be to do some of these other things first, so that when they do get in the car and they show up, it actually takes effect. You may not like her at all. That's that leave it on the coffee table effect. You're giving them permission to not even like it. And by doing that, their ears perk up a little bit more. They're more willing to listen. And you can say, you know, what I do these days is I say, I don't know, watch some of her YouTube videos. Maybe she's crazy. Let

Matt: 21:18

what

Amber Hollingsworth: 21:19

me

Matt: 21:19

you--

Amber Hollingsworth: 21:19

know

Matt: 21:19

[HUMMING]

Amber Hollingsworth: 21:20

--and let them kind of get a feel without having to commit. So that's what I do these days. Before I was on YouTube, I would have them to say, you know what, why don't you just go like three times. If you don't like her after three times, we'll take you out, because that's just the way some money. It's not working, it's not working, because it doesn't feel like a huge commitment to say, OK, I'll go talk to that woman three times, you know? And I just say, if I haven't captured you about three times, I'm not going to capture you. I'm pretty good at like engaging-- because this is all I've ever done. So I'm used to people not wanting to see me when they see me. And that does it by the way at all. That's the first thing I say. I say, it's kind of weird to talk some stranger about your personal business, right? And they'll say, yeah, it is, you know. So I just relate to it. I just have empathy. But about three sessions, if you're not at least tolerating coming to talk to me, you're probably-- it's just not there yet. So get somebody to agree to do three sessions.

Matt: 22:14

Get

Amber Hollingsworth: 22:15

someone to watch a YouTube video. That doesn't seem scary. And make it sound like you're not forcing it. And like you're open to hearing their opinion about it. And they'll be more open to giving it a try.

Matt: 22:29

This must be a hard thing for families to think about. The process of them getting sober might be those three and done. And then not going back for a while. That you're planting a seed there for them. And being OK with it wasn't a failure. This just might be-- this is part of the process, and we're at least starting now.

Amber Hollingsworth: 22:52

Absolutely. My goal in those first sessions is not to try to fix anybody at all. It is just to try to build a relationship with that person so that the person doesn't mind coming to talk to me. Like maybe they don't think they have a problem yet. But they're like, yeah, she's cool. She's all right, whatever. I'll show up. That's like not worth arguing about. And so they show up. And if nothing else, I've built that safety and that relationship so that in the future, if they do decide it's a problem, and they want to talk to somebody, they'll be like, yeah, I'll go back and talk to that person because yeah, I like her anyway. And she was not bad or whatever. And so that's all I'm trying to accomplish is in those first sessions, especially if someone's coming in to me in denial, is just build safety and credibility.

Matt: 23:40

Absolutely. I want to talk about the YouTube channel.

Amber Hollingsworth: 23:44

Sure.

Matt: 23:46

There are-- there's a lot of social media and YouTube people that I don't care for because it is the immediate sales pitch upfront. People without any licenses of, I can get you sober if you give me 30-- something-- one of those pitches. And what I like about your channel is I can listen, I can hear the topic, and I'm hearing, I have this practice. We have this website. But I'm giving you the upfront of, here is something tangible. What made you get into YouTube?

Amber Hollingsworth: 24:20

When I would be having sessions with clients, and then I felt like-- honestly, I felt like I say the same 10 things over and over and over. And then people would say, man, I wish that was on recording. I'd just play that back. I got to remind myself of that. And then I finally thought to myself, I was like, well, I guess we could record that. We could record that. Just some of these basic lessons or advice that we give over and over. I'm like, we can make a few videos and put that out there. And that was the beginning thinking about all of it.

Matt: 24:54

Done pretty well. You've got a lot of people on, put the shovel down. How did you build this thing?

Amber Hollingsworth: 25:05

It's been a journey, Matt. I'll say this. I'll say getting people off a heroin is not that hard, honestly. Understanding YouTube is rocket science, is much harder. That journey for me has been much more difficult, because there's about 1,000 million that you have to conquer to do that.

Matt: 25:27

Oh yeah? Yeah. I've kind of learned in my end that I do a lot of-- my love is really the audio, first.

Amber Hollingsworth: 25:35

I

Matt: 25:35

put some stuff on YouTube or social media because you kind of have to, but-- It's a skill of learning how to edit, learning what is good, what isn't good, and then riding some luck. Because there's a lot of crap out there that gets a lot of views, and there's some great stuff that.

Amber Hollingsworth: 25:53

Right.

Matt: 25:54

Found.

Amber Hollingsworth: 25:55

And it's, it's disheartening as it is. It's about what do you title it, and what's on that thumbnail.

Matt: 26:02

Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth: 26:03

And it's hard, it's hard to wrap your head around, but if you can't, if someone doesn't click play on the video, you can't help them. So you have to get really masterful at that. That's, that's one of those skills that you have to get really good at.

Matt: 26:18

How long have you been doing it?

Amber Hollingsworth: 26:21

I started the channel in 2016 and maybe put a few videos, kind of like a few lessons, like we talked about. I wasn't really doing YouTube. I just recorded them, put them on there.

Matt: 26:30

Yep.

Amber Hollingsworth: 26:30

I've probably started really doing YouTube in like 2018. Like, made a commitment to, I'm going to release videos every week. I'm, I'm for real doing this, like a couple years ago.

Matt: 26:41

How do you find the time to do that and have your practice?

Amber Hollingsworth: 26:44

it. These days, I see clients two days a week and I work on the rest of the stuff three days a week.

Matt: 26:51

Got

Amber Hollingsworth: 26:51

It took me a while to get to that point. It's been sort of a balancing act. But I've, I've found it for me, having time to dedicate specifically to that and vice versa helps me to be much more present and focused on either side, rather than bouncing back and forth, bouncing back and forth.

Matt: 27:10

Yeah, because I'm terrible at that. I try and do some writing. I try and do the podcast I can do. I try and write a little bit each week on a sub stack. And then I'll drop the social media stuff, because that's, that's where I have time. But I just think through, if you're listening to a lot of this content and you like it, you should be very thankful for that person, because it's a lot harder than it looks, and it takes a lot of time. And it takes a lot of structure of that. I don't I'm not great at that with the structure. You mentioned that you discovered later on that your family all had a problem going through the process of helping clients learning your trade. How is that helped you in relating family members or other loved ones who have a problem?

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:11

Ask me that. Ask me that again, because I think I understand what you're saying, but I want to make sure I'm getting the right message here.

Matt: 28:17

Yeah, I think it's kind of twofold. The how I guess it's how does it help you? How are you able to digest that? I guess basically of, oh, they have a problem. And this is how I deal with my own family who has this. If that makes sense.

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:34

So from the family members perspective, come into terms with the fact that

Matt: 28:38

lot

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:38

they have a

Matt: 28:39

because you're well, I'm thinking from, from you, you're also somebody who has loved ones who

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:45

problem.

Matt: 28:45

had this

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:45

How

Matt: 28:47

did that help you digest it?

Amber Hollingsworth: 28:51

I think one of the one of the reasons one of the things that's been really helpful for me, Matt, is that even though I come from a very addicted family like I have no memories of my grandmother without that glass of vodka like zero memories. I thought she was a wonderful grandmother. I don't feel like I had a bad childhood. Was there a addiction? Yeah, my mom died of meth. Like I'm for real when I say that, right? But, but yes, they had a problem, but they're still good people. And I feel like that's given me the unique lens to be able to see that yes, someone has a problem, but that's not all of who they are. And that doesn't mean that they're terrible, horrible people. And so

Matt: 29:33

No.

Amber Hollingsworth: 29:33

for me personally, I can see both of those things at the same time and not be conflicted about it.

Matt: 29:40

We have a real black and white society, and I'm glad you said that that there are many different dimensions to alcoholism that you may have a loved one who has an addiction. It doesn't mean that they're a terrible person. It means they have this one thing that is a problem. And if it was relieved, they could be their best self. They're people who have addictions, they're terrible

Amber Hollingsworth: 30:03

people. Right.

Matt: 30:04

That's true. But sometimes it's more complex than that that they are a good person. They are trying their best and they can't control substances. And that's what makes it hard.

Amber Hollingsworth: 30:17

Right. And I think that the evidence that makes that clear is the fact that seems like maybe a person that's like maybe you think, oh, they're selfish? They only care about themselves or, you know, they don't, you know, they don't have empathy for other people. That's what it seems like.

Matt: 30:34

it

Amber Hollingsworth: 30:35

And so it seems like all addicts and alcoholics are like that. But it's actually the reverse. It's the addiction that brings you to that point. t lose your ability to feel empathy for other people, because you're in such a state of desperation all the time. And so, it's not I'm a bad person, so I got an addiction, it's, I got an addiction, which caused me to do things totally against my value system. And so I'm a bad person, and then I come back, like pretty quickly, and then that helps you to separate what really is the addiction versus what is my loved one. Of course there are some people that have addictions that are just POS or whatever, you know? But for the most part, that's not the case. I mean, like the large, like 99% part. It's regular people, great people who develop a problem, and I don't care who you are, if you make a person addicted, they will do the exact same behaviors, they will have the same thought. That's why you can go to a meeting anywhere, no matter your gender, your age, your race, the country you're in, your language, and connect to another alcoholic. Because it, because there's a predictable progression of symptoms in way of feeling and thinking and behaving and decision making, that is universal. Some people go through the continuum faster than others, but that's really the only difference, right? And whoever you are, if you get yourself in that desperate state, you're going to think and feel and do exactly those things.

Matt: 32:21

As soon as you said that, that was my exact thought is the only difference is how fast do you get there? Some people go real slow.

Amber Hollingsworth: 32:29

Right.

Matt: 32:29

Some people are really fast. Some people are have, you know, the physical symptoms on the outside. I was one of those people where all those symptoms were on the inside.

Amber Hollingsworth: 32:39

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 32:39

I was able to hide it, but I was mentally damaged on the inside. I just was trying to hide it from you. Amber from you, this is all you've done is help other people. I think any type of therapy is hard for the therapist. I look at this as this has to be even harder. I think the only thing in medicine that I think has got to be the hardest is every time I go to like children's hospital for something, the only thing I'm thinking I had to go to children's hospital recently because my daughter heard her leg. And even though she was physically hurt, I was blessed that this is fixable. There's somebody, probably, with an ear shot who is in terrible shape and their parents are going to lose this child and this probably happens every day. So I think the only thing in medicine worse is pediatrics because you just see kids get sick and lose their lives way too young. This seems like it's kind of close because it's just hard with people with addiction. What's

Amber Hollingsworth: 33:52

Yeah.

Matt: 33:53

the reward that keeps you doing

Amber Hollingsworth: 33:56

that? I see people get better every day, and because I generally like the people that come to see me, they generally like me back. We have good relationship. It's not this, you know, I don't see myself as the probation officer. I tell them, I am your advocate. I call, I'm your lawyer, I'm your defense attorney and it's my job to dig you out of whatever you're in. So, where are we starting? I'm your person, not against you. You need help, your wife is doing something. Let's deal with it. I got you. And it makes it easy.

Matt: 34:30

Amber, I wish there were more people like you. Here is the talent I think you have that you see first the good that's in somebody even when they've, there's this. I'm into Yacht Rock right now. And there's this song by Peter Allen that is obscure that's called angels with dirty faces. And I think what you just described is you see the angel underneath the dirty face and not everybody's like that. I know there's a lot of times that I'm not and I'm a little crusty times when I see that. And I think that that's the only way I think you can find you can be happy doing that role is you see those. You see underneath that there is a good in there. And then it sounds like it's really rewarding when you bring that out.

Amber Hollingsworth: 35:23

Right

Matt: 35:23

successful.

Amber Hollingsworth: 35:24

And honestly, people show you different parts of themselves based on how you show up for them. So because I show up in a certain way they just immediately show me the good part and it's not a mask. It's not a pretend it's a I'm not. I don't have my spikes up because I don't need my spikes.

Matt: 35:43

Now you eat.

Amber Hollingsworth: 35:44

It's very easy to to like them honestly to see the good in them. And the other piece of it and I will say this is part of it and I'm lucky in this respect is that these days most of the people I see. are very functional, honestly. Like, my specialty is dealing with people who are functional. A lot of people see are various stuff. So they look nice and they talk nice, you know, they are charming. You know, all those things, and that, that also makes it easy. I have worked, you know, in detox, in acute care, I've seen every kind of it, you know. But I still think how you interact with someone is going to determine how they're going to interact with you back. And unfortunately as an addiction counselor, there's a, I don't know if the word's culture, there's a way of thinking. I don't know what the word is, but like, the average lifespan of addiction counselors, five years, it takes longer than that worth of schooling to become one. So that's very sad. You know, it's a lot of money to get us going energy and time. And to, for the average lifespan, and the reason that is is because of compassion fatigue and feeling like, you know, you're seeing the same people over and over and people don't listen to you and no one's getting better. And so you develop this attitude of when you're desperate enough, come back. And so you have this attitude, this air about you that is like what you just haven't achieved. Or I guess you don't really want it if you're not willing to go to non-immuting tonight, as you know, if you're not, you're not serious or whatever you got, you have a supper enough, you know, you hear all these things. And so that when you, when you feel like that inside, you bring that energy with you. You bring a defensiveness in the room, and when you're bringing defensiveness, you're going to get defensiveness back, which then reinforces itself. So you have to, you have to have a heart shift, which causes you to have an energy shift, which causes you to get something totally different in response.

Matt: 37:49

I hope listening to this, you have felt like you've heard something a lot more positive and empathetic and good. There's so much crap in the world right now. And it is really something I'm passionate about is what can we bring to the universe that's better, even when bad things are happening. My guest today has been, my guest today has been Amber Hollingsworth. She has her own YouTube channel. Put the shovel down. If you're somebody who you're looking for empathy on how you get a loved one sober or going the right way. Or if, if you're so per curious and you want to learn a little bit more and say do I have an issue or if just somebody like me who likes to look at recovery stuff. I think this is an awesome place to go. Amber, I am so proud that you've been my guest today.

Amber Hollingsworth: 38:53

Thank you Matt. Thanks for having me. Pleasure.

Matt: 38:56

Welcome. See everybody next week. Bye everybody.