E241: The Secret to Step 12: It Helps You More Than Them

In this episode of the Sober Friends Podcast, Matt and Steve dig into Step 12 of the program: carrying the message and practicing the principles in all areas of life. They share personal stories of being welcomed into meetings, what it felt like to get help in those first shaky days, and why giving back to newcomers is essential for staying sober. From answering hotline calls to simply saying “welcome” at a meeting, Step 12 isn’t about preaching — it’s about showing up, sharing your story, and remembering that sobriety is something we can only keep if we give it away.

Transcript

Matt: 0:02

Hey, it's the Sober Friends Podcast. My name is Matt Jay. Over there is Steve. And when we do this podcast, the way I look at it is it's a way of carrying the message, which if you are a 12-stepper like us, carrying the message means step 12. So, Steve, good morning. And what's it mean to you? What's the, what's step 12 mean in terms of your recovery?

Steve: 0:32

Uh, good morning, Matt. Step 12 means to me, um, something that happened when I first came in. And that is somebody was there to greet me.

Matt: 0:44

mmm,

Steve: 0:44

Somebody was there to reach out a hand to me. Um, literally, I've talked about it the first time I came in. Somebody actually took me under their wing and sort of walked the first few months, few years with me, actually. Um, and, and I was forever grateful, although I struggled to work the program that time. That never left me, right? That, that message that that person gave me, I talk about it often when I speak, never left me. That person is still my sponsor. Um, and it just meant everything to me, right? And then when I came back in 2010, that person was still there, still willing

Matt: 1:28

help.

Steve: 1:28

to Um, and, uh, I'm just so grateful for that, that I just feel like I owe that to the next person. That's, that's what I do. And then the other thing is because I've been around for a while and I've had the opportunity to work with other men. Um, I realize now that there's a, there's a huge, uh, give back from, from them to me that, that just helps my sobriety and just helps me along. So, uh, it, it just reminds me that that's, that's what, number one, that's what I gotta do to stay sober. Number two, somebody did it for me, right? Somebody did it for me. And we've, we've talked about it here. Let's, you talk about it often. That's why you still do meetings, right? Um, is to make sure that you're there for the newcomer or whatever. And, uh, so that's what it means to me. And there's a lot more to it, right? There's 12 steps called, which we'll get into it, but that's like the initial thing when you brought it up. Like, that's what I remember. That's what I feel. That's why I think it's important. And that's why I do it. That's why I do outreach. That's why I do service work. That's why I make myself available to, you know, new alcoholics. I

Matt: 2:39

didn't initially think of what did I get out of step 12 or when I was, when I was newly sober, what did step 12 do for me? And I'm glad you went down that, that way. Cause I just wasn't thinking about that up front. So here's what step 12 says. It says having a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry the message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all our affairs. I had quite a few people who were kind to me upfront and offer to take me to go see speakers and it's nerve wracking walking into a meeting. And if you have a few people who are kind to you, let you sit in their group, you're more likely to come

Steve: 3:25

Yeah.

Matt: 3:25

back.

Steve: 3:25

I

Matt: 3:27

couldn't do this alone. I had to do this with somebody else because otherwise it wasn't comfortable. It wasn't comfortable enough for me.

Steve: 3:38

No, that's a great point. Like, first of all, I'm not a, I'm not a shy person. I don't have a problem walking into a crowded room. Those things don't bother me. So walking into a crowded room, like when I first started, it was weird because I didn't want to admit I was an alcoholic. But once I sort of knew that's what I needed, I didn't have a problem walking into a room, even if I didn't know anybody. But the way that people greet you, the way that people bring you in, the way that people, again, it's what I do now. It's what I do now because that's what people did for me. That's what they showed me. And that's what made me comfortable. So I always want to make people comfortable. And so, you know, I just shared about it, I don't know, Friday, Wednesday or Friday, one of my meetings. And I just talked about how, you know, I went to meetings. I was a, I was a disaster when I first came in. Right. I was a disaster. I mean that like emotionally. That's what I mean. Emot, I was, I was just a mess. And there were people who just were so kind and patient and, and they never told me, you know, don't, I, you know, I hear the horror stories. We talk about the old-timers, the Gruffo guys, but... None of those guys, I didn't interact with any of those guys, really. Like, I may have heard them, maybe I just dismissed them, but I didn't interact with those guys. Never made an impression on me. Like, I never felt that from anybody. I always felt caring and love, if you will, which was hard to understand at that point. I didn't consider it love, but today I recognize it as love. And people who really just wanted me to get healthy and stop drinking. Like, that was their only thing. Nothing else. Like, they had, they had no other agenda, right? No other agenda except to help me, put down that drink and make a better life for myself. That's an incredible thought, right? That, that, that's what this program does. And I know it gets beat up all over the place. We talk about it all the time. I'm on social media. Um, there's a huge, and all you got to do is watch one anti AA 12 step video, and then they'll be fed to you. So,

Matt: 5:45

your new algorithm,

Steve: 5:46

right. And I get it. And I don't mind that because I like listening to the other sides. I like listening to that side. So, I get a lot of those because I watch a lot of those. But for me, for this alcoholic, uh, just the fact that I found these people and they're mostly men. That's the other thing, right? They're mostly men for me who just cared so much about me that they were willing to give up a good portion of their life to walk me through this program. And not only that, like I'm, I'm 15 years sober, right? And that's not a pattern. That's like, I just, what I, but I only did that because there's other, they're still willing to do that for me. Right? Call up any one of them and say, I need help. I need to go through the steps again. Boom. Then we, you know, they'll spend the next three, four months with me taking me through the, that's, that's it. That's 12 step, right? You know, that's the first part. And that's not the first part. That's the first thing that came to mind. I mean, I didn't want to think about this until you brought up the subject, you know, 10 minutes ago. And when you said it, that was the first thing that came to mind. What, what, how much I got out of a 12 step call when I first came in and then, okay, that's what I learned. Right. You know, you know, I was, I was on a, I was on a pizza Facebook group today and they were talking about pizza. And I just said, you know, you, you, you like the pizza that you grew up with, right? That's what it is. Like wherever you grew up with, that's what you like, whether other people like it or not. It's the same thing with me, with this AA program. I like the style of sobriety that I was brought up under. And that's what I try to replicate, right? Is I try to replicate that same thing. And I'm surrounded by guys who are just, they're, they're absolutely selfless. Like I, I don't even touch, I can't even touch. Like I can't touch Edson, right? We talk about Edson here. I can't, I can't touch what he does for other alcoholics and, and what he's willing to do for other alcoholics. Like, you know, that's, I think about that and I try to, but I can't touch it. And, uh, he's just one of those, he's just one of those guys who will do literally anything to help another suffering alcohol.

Matt: 7:54

It doesn't feel like I have capacity, right?

Steve: 7:55

No, I either do. With

Matt: 7:57

all the stuff that I have, I can't, I can't do that. Maybe someday.

Steve: 7:59

Me too. I don't, I don't try. I don't, I don't get away. Um, just on the subject, right? One of the things that if you're on, if you're in a 12 step program, uh, our 12 step program of AA, we have a hotline, right?

Matt: 8:11

Yes.

Steve: 8:11

We have a hotline that people call and you can sign up to take calls and I'm on that hotline and I've been on it for a few years and I never got a call before, or I never knew we got a call. They're doing a better job with it now. Um, so I got a call, I got, I got a text message is from the hotline. Um, I actually got a text message is from the hotline cause I'm one of the people and they said, Hey, this guy from Windsor called up and, um, and it was the first time. Right. And that's, that's true 12 step call, right? That's somebody I don't know who maybe needed help, maybe needed a meeting. And I could not take that person to a meeting that day. Like that my day was not, would not allow me to take that, but I can call them.

Matt: 8:47

Yes,

Steve: 8:47

I could reach out to him and that's what I did. I reached out to him, left a message, never heard back again, not unusual, right? This person who had texted me said they talked to him, talked to this person for about, uh, at like midnight and I get it, right? He's probably in his cup sorrow, probably a lot of remorse, drunk, called the AA hotline. And then I hope somebody else got to him before me and picked him up, took him to a meeting. Um, I was going to talk to him and I was going to try to hook him up with somebody who would do that. But she, they had said that other people were trying to contact him. So again, so that's true 12 step, right? Pick up a call, which is kind of weird. A lot of people say, oh, I would never do that in this environment. But I know a lot of people who got sober by calling the AA. No, no, I don't, I won't say.

Matt: 9:31

Yeah.

Steve: 9:31

But that's not true. I know several people who got sober by calling the AA hotline. Um, one of them is my buddy Frank, who literally, uh, called the hotline. And really needed help and got, got picked up by another guy that I know in the program, Bob. And the first meeting he, Bob took Frank to was Timmy's teepee meeting.

Matt: 9:55

Mm-hmm.

Steve: 9:56

And Frank said it was probably the best place ever for him because he was surrounded by good alcoholics, right? People with good, you know, recovery.

Matt: 10:08

And not in a church basement either, out

Steve: 10:10

Right,

Matt: 10:11

in a teepee.

Steve: 10:11

right.

Matt: 10:12

For Frank,

Steve: 10:13

was-

Matt: 10:13

that

Steve: 10:13

That was a perfect place, right? He's an outside guy. He's a fisherman. I don't know if he's a hunter, but- place. But yeah, he's an outside guy. It was the perfect meeting for him. So, it works, right? This is my point. Like, I, Frank is, you know, a good friend of mine, and it works for him. And so, that's why, again, that's why I signed up. And, you know, and if I'm uncomfortable going on a 12-step call, which is what we call the, you know, this, if you're going to pick up an alcoholic who you don't know, you're going to pick him up. If I was uncomfortable doing it, I would just call another alcoholic and say, hey, I got a 12-step call. You want to go for a ride?

Matt: 10:47

Yeah,

Steve: 10:47

Right?

Matt: 10:48

that's the best

Steve: 10:49

And that is the best

Matt: 10:49

I

Steve: 10:49

practice.

Matt: 10:50

would never go by myself, right?

Steve: 10:51

I mean, unless it was somewhere that I knew. Like, if I got a call from Manchester, maybe I might do it myself because I know the neighborhoods and stuff like that. But if I'm going somewhere I don't know, yeah, I'm going to probably call somebody up and say, hey, let's go. And that is the best practice, r, to go. So, there's lots of stuff to do it, right? Now, let's get back to that first part, too, because we talk about it all the time. There's lots of ways to do 12-step work without actually sponsoring, without actually picking up alcoholics and taking them to meetings. Like you said, you say it all the time. You do it by going to meetings and sharing and making yourself there.

Matt: 11:31

Yeah, this is the indirect.

Steve: 11:33

Right.

Matt: 11:33

The people think it has to be sponsoring, but it's not. This is much better.

Steve: 11:38

Right. But the other thing is, it does say, havin had a spiritual experience based on the previous steps, right, after completing those steps. So, it does tell you that in order to do this properly, you need to have an understanding of what this program, right? If you're going to go out and bring somebody into this program, you need to understand what this program is about. And it doesn't mean you can't, again, it does not mean that you couldn't, it does not mean that at six months sober, you couldn't go out and pick up a friend or pick up somebody who needed a meeting and take them to a meeting. Like, that's not what this is saying. But it is saying that if you really want to do good 12-step work, then you have to go through these steps. And you have to understand these steps, and you have to be working on these steps. So, it is. It's a really, it's a broad range of activities that we can do to help the next alcoholic.

Matt: 12:39

You need your college degree in AA

Steve: 12:41

Right.

Matt: 12:41

first. You need to read the book. You need to go through the steps, which there are people who do this in six months and have great sobriety. That is definitely

Steve: 12:50

Absolutely.

Matt: 12:51

possible. But it would, that would, I would do that with somebody first if I was going to do that. It's helpful to know. So, on the indirect approach here. Sharing at meetings is something that I was taught to do by the old timers. And the old timers said this is part of 12-step work. Even if you're brand new and sharing, you can reach out to the old timer. You need to think about this different. The old timer thinks, I want the, in the good meetings I've gone to. There are meetings where like, oh, you know, shut up. Shut up and put the cotton balls in your mouth. Take them out of your ears, put them in your mouth. The old timers that made the biggest impact on me said, no, no, no. I probably should share the least. I would prefer to hear from the newcomer. Even if the newcomer doesn't have much to say of, I'm Matt, I'm a newcomer. I'm here and I'm sober. And that's all I can get out because it's going to help the old timer hear somebody new doesn't have much to say. Maybe I reach out or if I hear that, I'm learning a new person. And if I hear that, I'm hearing that struggle that I've forgotten about that feels very distant. It reminds me and helps me with my recovery. So it's important, even if you're brand new, to open your trap because you could be helping the old person remember. That's 12-step work.

Steve: 14:18

And a lot of people are reluctant to do that, newcomers, because they think, oh, I'm going to sound stupid. Or maybe people don't want to hear my stuff. You hear those things all the time. Nobody wants to hear my stuff.

Matt: 14:31

I hear it a lot of old timers. It sounds

Steve: 14:33

okay.

Matt: 14:33

stupid. So it's

Steve: 14:34

Yeah, me too. And again, I never had that problem. I mean that. I go to AA and even today, I share my stuff, right? I get whatever's inside of me bothering me, I put it out there.

Matt: 14:46

Yeah, me

Steve: 14:46

And

Matt: 14:47

too. No

Steve: 14:47

I

Matt: 14:47

problem.

Steve: 14:47

put it out there at the meetings that I like, but I put it out there pretty much any AA meeting. I'm pretty comfortable doing that. Dependent. At certain levels, of course. But... But there's also, there is, and again, this is 12-step work, because I'm thinking about a guy that goes to our Monday night meeting, who I haven't seen in a while, um, who walks in, and he's only had money, he's been having trouble staying sober, um, I think he's been doing okay lately, but he walks in, and he just talks this game, like, oh, I get it, oh, I'm never gonna do it, I love my life, like, and goes on and on and on, and this is a guy who needs to be pulled aside, and this is what you can do, too, like, there is a place for an old-timer to pull somebody aside, and going, listen, dude, like, you can't stay sober, so you don't got it, right, you don't, you don't got it, so don't talk like you got it, um, until you got it, and first of all, once you realize, once, once you got it, you never say that you got it, that's the difference, right, that's where you know that people, if they're working a good program or not, like, I'll never tell you, I've got this, I mean that, because, uh, I might have it for that moment, but that doesn't mean I have it for long term, I have it for as long as I, as I keep it, and again, we're talking about 12 steps, so as long as I give it away, um, but I just gotta keep working on it for me, and I think that's what the thing which drives a lot of people away from, uh, from the 12-step program, is that, you know, I look at this as a lifetime program for me, I really do, uh, because it's a lifestyle program, and it helps me, here's what I said Friday night, it helps me deal with life better,that's what it does, and, and I, and I made that, I made that exact statement, and I was like, note that I didn't say well, right, note that, because I still struggle with dealing with life on life's terms, but, but it helps me with it better, and it certainly helps me deal with life without drinking, which is one of the problems, right, which is one of the problems I had, that I felt my life was so screwed up, that, um, it was just too painful, I was just in too much pain, right, and I just was, I was trying to drown that pain, I didn't know there was a different way to do it, so, you know, alcohol was my crutch to try to, try to forget about all the stuff that I was, I was painful and fearful about, and today, this program allows me to deal with all of that stuff,

Matt: 17:23

yes,

Steve: 17:23

again, better, not, well, sometimes well, sometimes really well, um, but other times not so well, and it helps me do that without drinking, and not only without drinking, but knowing that the alcohol is not gonna help me, and is not the answer, like, that's, that's, you know, I know that, that's true today, whereas before, I used to, like, hey, I'm gonna feel better once I have a few drinks, and it's like, oh yeah, you will, you will feel

Matt: 17:55

you

Steve: 17:55

better once

Matt: 17:56

have

Steve: 17:56

a few drinks, but, um, you don't know how to have a few drinks, so, you're gonna feel a lot worse later on.

Matt: 18:03

Yeah, long-term, you feel, you feel like crap. I think that's really the key, when we're talking about, you, you can live through life without drinking, nobody is saying life is going to be perfect, so, if you are in a position where you're hearing somebody say, their life is amazing 24-7, that could be the case, but likely it's not, because my life is not great 24-7, and nobody's life is, is great 24-7, sober or not, having a drinking problem or not, what is the problem for us, is we didn't find a way to get through the valleys without drinking, that you needed a crutch. Now, because we've gone through the 12 steps, you don't need a crutch anymore. You have those tools that you've learned, and it helps you through when life stinks. That's what the key is, and you're going to have things that happen that aren't great. This is part of 12-step work, is sharing with people saying, if you're thinking, I'm doing it wrong because I still feel bad, I can help you say, are you drinking over it? No. All right, then you're doing it right, that you have to feel these feelings. Helping new people is a lot of, it seems like, telling them the obvious. You feel lousy right now because you're two months sober. It's okay to feel lousy because you're actually feeling those emotions. They were there, but they were pushed down. It's okay for you to feel that and feel normal. I needed somebody to tell me that. I needed somebody to tell me, don't be so literal that once I do six and seven, God didn't really eliminate those defects and that I never would feel them again. I honestly felt literal like a five-year-old looking for Santa Claus. It was like, no, it's the process of letting it go that helps, but even us old-timers still have the stuff creeping back in. It's not magical.

Steve: 20:07

You know, you said something there that just, you know, put off the light bulb in my head. Um, Yeah, it's not like, right, we're not looking for that, that, that Easter bunny or that Santa Claus that takes all this away. We're not looking for that.

Matt: 20:23

right. Right.

Steve: 20:24

We're looking for the opportunity to deal with difficulties, to deal with our character defects, to deal with the things that give us problems. I still have many. Um, and that's what the program gives us. And it's interesting, right? I've really started working hard trying to do some meditation. So I've started, started exercising regularly at home. I'm not, and, uh, and feeling good. Like haven't even, haven't even been doing it a month. And just so you know, the alcoholic, I'm thinking like, I'm, I get way ahead of myself, which is the alcoholic thinking like, oh, I should be doing more. I've literally, I literally been working out for less,

Matt: 21:03

every

Steve: 21:03

for

Matt: 21:03

day

Steve: 21:03

less than four weeks. And I'm like, oh, I should be doing more. I should be working out twice a day. Right? So it's just, that's the alcoholic thing. It helps us deal with these things. And that's what I mean. Like, I know that like, oh no, that I shouldn't be doing more. I'm doing exactly what I should be doing right now. Um, so when I was trying to meditate, one of the things, if anybody's tried to meditate, especially if you're new at it, we talk about all the time, like, oh, I can't shut off my brain. I have all these thoughts. And if you listen to anyone who meditates, right? Who regularly that you can't shut off your brain, right? just say, I don't want to think about a pink elephant. Of course you're going to think about a pink, like you, you, you, like, I mean it,

Matt: 21:45

Like,

Steve: 21:45

like you don't control it.

Matt: 21:46

I'm going to have the pink elephant on my mind

Steve: 21:47

You,

Matt: 21:47

all day.

Steve: 21:48

you don't control your brain enough to shut that off. So what, what the, what the goal of meditation is, is to acknowledge those thoughts and then let them go. I was just thinking, it's the same thing with our character defect stuff, right? Acknowledge that we have them. We may have to do something. If they're damaging, if they're, if they're bothering, you know, if they're affecting the, the sobriety or the serenity or the quality of our life, we should deal with them. But it's also about letting them go, right? Like, oh yeah, that's it. So, um, that's a really good way to put it. I'm not looking for a Santa Claus to come and take them away. Uh, some people do, right? I mean, again, that, a lot of that is depends on your, your version of your higher power. Um, if you, if you have a higher power that you think can just snap your fingers and take all that away, good for you. I mean that like, I'm envious of you.

Matt: 22:39

Um, yeah, I'm jealous.

Steve: 22:40

And I, I have a woman who says that all the time. Like she's very agnostic and I talked to her because so am I. And she, she says that all the time, like, if that's your understanding of your higher power, I'm envious of you because I've never found that. Right. And, uh, and either have I, so, um, mine seems to be different and, uh, but that, that's great. I, I, you know, that's why I love doing this. Why I love going to meetings is that it gives me another thing to think about.

Matt: 23:11

Yeah, there's so many different perspectives that are out there that you can hear this. Th, uh, Tony L who has since passed away has talked about a higher power as everybody's looking at a mountain and you may describe that mountain differently because there's five people in different places looking up at it and you see something totally different, but it is the same mountain. that's the way it can be for your higher power, but it also is that way for your program and hearing that from different people of, if you are seeing it totally different, if I can't relate to what this guy is saying, it's okay to be pulled aside or here. That's okay too, because you might be on a different side of the mountain that you can't relate to a damn thing. This guy is saying, yeah, it is the same thing you see. It's just from a different angle.

Steve: 24:03

You know something? I love that. First time I heard that, I might've heard it from you on this podcast. Um, cause I didn't spend a lot of time with Tony. I know who he was. I went to several meetings with him. Um, I don't know if I ever heard him say that in person. Maybe I did, but I just love that description of a higher power. Right. If we're all looking at this same thing, um, and we're looking like, I just, not only that being a hiker, right? I realized there's lots of different trails up to that summit. Right. And, and some of them are easier and some of them are harder. Uh, some of them are scary. And so it's just a great way to look at that. It's like, when I, first time I heard that, I'm like, yeah, that made a lot of sense to me. Like, yep. I, and again, that's part of our 12 step program. Where we allow everybody to choose their own path and their own, you know, highe power is that it allows us all to be different yet somewhat connected. And, um, I've, I've loved it. So like I said, since the first time I've heard it,

Matt: 25:09

do you help me when you share your different path? Because it kind of completes where I am. It paints in a little bit of the picture that's missing for me. And it gives me something to think about. My wife yesterday was crazy. We had this conversation because we have a niece who is going to a new church and it is, it's in like the auditorium of a high school for now. There are a lot of new churches in our area that have either, they're very evangelical or they have these satellite locations and I'm not a huge fan of them. One of them, I went to their website and they have like a CFO and you should not have a chief financial officer if you're a church. There's something wrong and it's like the cool, it's like a lot of people go to this church because their friends go there and it's like people of a certain income bracket and it's, it's the cool place to go as opposed to I'm Catholic and this is why I go there. So I'm suspicious of some of these new churches, but my wife was talking about her spirituality and how she feels God, which is very different than mine, but she feels it in very different ways and she doesn't want to be preached to. And it's not preached to, you have to have a certain set of beliefs, but it's preached to of you have to go to this church and then you only can hang out with these group of people who go to this. Cause that's also part of some of these new groups. It's recruiting, but also hang out with this. And she doesn't like that, which I don't like either, but it also gave me something. She's not, she has no problem with alcohol, but it was 12 step work in a sense for me because it either reinforced something I believed, but gave me a different way of thinking at things because she very, very rarely talks about God. But when she does, she has this very strong faith, which I don't, but it gives me something to think about because it is so clear to her and she feels things that I don't. It's not like, Oh, I just believe in Santa Claus. I believe in this. It's very broad. And I very deeply feel these moments of the people we've lost and of God. And it is in places that you wouldn't think of. She doesn't, cause we're also talking about cemeteries that, um, we don't find going to cemeteries, the places that we visit the lost. They're, they're a marker where a body is, but those people are not there. So we don't need to go to a shrine where somebody's in the ground to feel somebody. They're not there. I can, I can experience them anywhere, but it helped me give me some thoughts on spirituality. I hadn't considered. I would say the best thing to learn from somebody who is trying to deliver some 12 step work to you is be open-minded. Don't shut off con concepts and I'm going to push it aside. Give it a moment to say, I'm willing to consider that, or I'm willing to consider your opinion, even if I don't agree.

Steve: 28:24

Yeah. Yeah. Here's the point. I mean, if, if you're, if you're desperate enough, right, if you're desperate enough to really try something different, to reach out to somebody. And that doesn't only mean, again, that for me, especially, I'll talk for me, for me, that doesn't only mean drinking. Like it means, it means my, my ability to deal with life situations. I mean, right. Am I crazy. Am I, you know, wigging out over something that I shouldn't be like, if, if you're, if you feel like your life is somewhat unraveling and that could be at any point. Right. It doesn't mean like you're ready to lose everything, whatever point that is for you, it's worth it to give it a try. It's worth it to, to try something different. Uh, so I would encourage you to try something, you know, and 12 step worked for me and, and it worked for me because of the reason I said at the beginning, somebody came and walked me through this program when I was unable to do it by myself. And, and not only unable, right. I was unwilling. Like if you, if, if it was like, okay, if this was like a class and I went for an hour and then they sent me home to do homework and then I just can't, and that was it. Like, that was it. Here's your book. Right. We're going to have a test on it. This would not have worked for me.

Matt: 29:52

It's too tough.

Steve: 29:52

It would not have worked for me. Right. I needed somebody to walk me through. And that's the difference. Again, I thought we talked about some of this 12 step bashing. Obviously some people are different in their, in their alcoholism and their disease, uh,

Matt: 30:07

Yep.

Steve: 30:07

that they, that they don't need that. Like they, they, they can, not, not only they feel like some people can walk this recovery by themselves. Uh, if you think you're one of those people, go right ahead and try that. But if you don't stay sober, you may want to come back and try something else. And that's the beauty of 12 step recovery. Again, especially in our area where you have a ton of meetings you can go to. You, and you can go find that meeting. That seems like, uh, Like, like, you'll find that place if you give yourself the opportunity to try enough meetings like, oh no, this is the meeting for me. These are the people that I like. These are the people who I feel most comfortable with. You will find that, uh, if you go out and try enough because they're out there and they're all different. And that's what happened. That's what's happened to me. Like, I've just, I've done a lot of meetings and I've just found meetings that I like and I continue go to those meetings because those, those are the people that I connected to.

Matt: 31:10

That, the people who taught me the program taught me a lesson of go to a lot of different meetings, find something different if it doesn't work for you. Because I live in Connecticut, there are so many meetings. I may have to drive a little bit, but I can find meetings pretty easily, even on a Sunday. And I may have to go into Hartford. I may not want to go into Hartford, but it's an option. Here's an analogy. At work, we have this program called ECM. It's a chat interface that we use to interface for a lot of different things. In, in customer service, it's an interface that if a customer says, I want to speak to a supervisor that you go in and you type in a few things and it opens up, and people who are assigned to take the soup call are in there. So it's an efficient way to route in, in a program that is universal in, in, in the company, to route somebody to you if you take those calls and things are filled out. So you kind of know what you're walking into. I mean, it's used for credit requests, used for everything that you would think of to, to deal with customer service issues. And it was designed that way because we had 20 different systems before. So now it's easy to resolve these customers or easy in a sense that it's simple. I should say that not easy, simple and in a consistent language to resolve issues. And then people will say ECM is broken. It doesn't work. No, ECM is actually working excellent. The problem you're experiencing is who you're interfacing with. If you're interfacing with somebody who's not using it properly or doesn't want to, or is not going in and clearing a credit when they're assigned to, that part of the process doesn't work. I say this because I bring it back to AA. AA, in a sense, does not have a problem. The problem is who you're interfacing with. If you walk in and there are people who are operating the program in a way that is not modern, that is going to rub you the wrong way. If you need a lot of structure and you go somewhere and you don't have it, that's not going to work for you. So a lot of the problems with AA are, are people oriented. If that, that is a problem. There are people who you interface with who you get a very bad experience and I wish it was less than what it is, but it is a people problem. But I'm also, I'm also a big fan of try a lot of different.

Steve: 34:02

Yeah.

Matt: 34:03

And it is okay. Somebody might tell you otherwise it is okay to come sit in and in a meeting. As long as you are trying not to drink, then you have a membership

Steve: 34:12

That's

Matt: 34:12

card.

Steve: 34:13

it.

Matt: 34:14

But you, nobody said that it's not, and you don't even have to say, well, I'm not going to work the steps. That's okay too. But you could say for today, I'm not working them. And then you're fine just interfacing with people.That's part of that's, that's, if somebody tells you that's not right, they're wrong. The only, the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. If you check that box, you can come in and sit down.

Steve: 34:42

And stay as long as you want.

Matt: 34:44

Yeah.

Steve: 34:44

Yep. I agree. And that's what I mean. I don't, I never try to chase anybody away, but, but I'm also limited in how I can help people. Right. I mean, it's the same thing. Right. So if that's your, if that's your thing, I'll always talk to newcomers out. If that's your thing that you want to do, if you want to do your recovery that way, I will always talk to you. I will always, I won't agree to like work with you one on one, because I don't know how to do that

Matt: 35:09

Yeah.

Steve: 35:09

program. Which doesn't mean I won't ever have a cup of coffee with you doesn't mean any of those things, right? Because I would always want to be there available to that person. If they change their mind and they want to do some 12 step work, but I'm not going to dismiss them because they aren't ready to do that. Or maybe don't feel like it's the right path. The other thing I would do again, and I would have never done this until I started doing this podcast. Like I nowadays, I would tell them that there's other ways to get sober that, and I would, I would direct them.

Matt: 35:44

Yeah.

Steve: 35:45

Smart Recovery Program or some of the online stuff that you and I follow. Uh, and like, hey, try these things, right? If, if this isn't working for you, try these things. And then, and cause you can always come back, right? I mean, and again, if, if

Matt: 36:00

Yeah.

Steve: 36:01

you're making poor decisions and you're driving drunk and you're losing your license, like that's a whole different story, right? If you're ready to go to jail because of your drinking, then, t you need to take drastic steps. Um, we're not talking about those people. We're talking about people who have a problem. Life may be not exactly like the way they want it. And, uh, but you try it, you know, even in our program, we say, if you, if you think you can drink, go out and try to drink. See if

Matt: 36:27

Yeah.

Steve: 36:27

you're successful and if you're successful, then you don't need us. But typically you're not going to an AA meeting. If, uh, if you, if you can go out and have a few drinks and be successful, you're just not. So.

Matt: 36:39

No, that's one of the 10 or 20 questions that is in the little book is, have you been to an AA meeting? If you've been to an AA meeting, that is almost like you're a therapist or you're visiting to observe. But if you've gone to an AA meeting, that's the sign you have a problem because normal people just don't.

Steve: 36:58

Right.

Matt: 36:58

For no reason.

Steve: 36:59

Right. My wife would never go to an AA meeting, right? Either with yours, right? Our wives would never think, oh, I'm just going to go sit in the AA meeting just to check and see if I have a problem. No, they don't do that, right?

Matt: 37:10

No, I would bring her in just to, I want you to,

Steve: 37:13

Yeah.

Matt: 37:13

this is an open meeting. I want you to experience your friend and I'd love you to hear this because it might help me.

Steve: 37:19

I agree.

Matt: 37:19

That's different.

Steve: 37:21

But they wouldn't go by, my point, what we're saying is they wouldn't go by themselves to check and see if they had a problem. Right. Because

Matt: 37:28

Right.

Steve: 37:28

they don't. Normal people don't do that.

Matt: 37:31

All right. Good show, long show. If you like this stuff, there are ways that you can help us out. Number one, follow on the podcast. Download the episode, listen, share with a friend. And there are lots of ways to get in touch with us at SoberFriendsPod.com. Steve, have an awesome day.

Steve: 37:55

Hey, Matt, thanks.

Matt: 37:56

You're welcome. And we'll see everybody next week. Bye, everybody.