E247: Loving Your Enemies (Even When You Don’t Want To)

Sometimes forgiveness feels impossible, especially when you’re sure the other person doesn’t deserve it. In this episode, Matt and Steve dive into the messy, uncomfortable work of letting go of resentment and learning to “love on” the people who have wronged us.

Inspired by CHiPs star Larry Wilcox’s story about forgiving Erik Estrada after years of bitterness, the guys talk about what forgiveness really means in recovery and how it connects to humility, prayer, and emotional sobriety.

From praying for the people who make you angry to letting go of that need to be right, this episode is all about finding freedom from the poison of resentment, even when your ego fights you every step of the way.

Larry Wilcox clip is from Still Here Hollywood with Steve Kmetko.

Transcript

Matt: 0:03

Welcome to the Silver Friends podcast. We're here to help the newcomer, the super curious, and those already on the path to recovery. My name's Matt J. Macco Host's is Steve. We're taping this on a Sunday morning, you'll hear it starting on Tuesday, and the Yankees last night lost a nail biteer,

Steve: 0:27

the

Matt: 0:27

up in some show. Some sure you have some forgiveness that you need to do so those dasger the Yankees.

Steve: 0:37

Those

Matt: 0:37

from

Steve: 0:37

connects

Matt: 0:38

losing by just this much.

Steve: 0:39

Right. Yeah, just by one in one run per inning they lost by.

Matt: 0:45

Yeah, I was out last night at a restaurant with a family and that a TV up and I can't. I had no attention span, I looked up and it just was run after run after run. I'm like, well, what?

Steve: 0:58

You know, let's,

Matt: 0:59

is this?

Steve: 1:00

I'm a diehard Yankee fan. It's one, it's the one time of a year where I'll stay up late to watch a sports game. I don't do that anymore, but the Yankees is one team I will, um, in the playoffs,

Matt: 1:12

uh,

Steve: 1:12

and,

Matt: 1:12

hmm.

Steve: 1:14

Even I went away from the game, you know, I went away from the game. There was another game coming on and there was some football on, and I'm like, all right, there's enough of this. So we'll see another, another game, let's think about baseball, another game today. They got a chance to, it was there, not to get off target, but it was their fourth line pitcher going up against Toronto's number.

Matt: 1:33

Oh, this is on, uh, hang with us. This is on target.

Steve: 1:36

It was on, right. So it was their fourth starter going against Toronto's number one starters. Now Yankee gets to get to the back to the top of the rotation. Um, and we'll say, that problem is there's five games area. So things go fast. So, you know, I mean Yankee is, you know, it's about as close to a muscle in as you'll find tonight.

Matt: 1:57

Um,

Steve: 1:59

and, uh, well, we'll see this afternoon. So we'll check it out.

Matt: 2:03

Yeah, we're talking, we're going to talk forgiveness and resentment here, and it reminds me that I have been wallowing in resentment and loving that feeling by looking at the University of North Carolina score.

Steve: 2:19

Yeah.

Matt: 2:20

And really wallowing in Bill Belichex in aptitude there as a, as a long time Patriots fan. And I'm like, you know, asshole is being uncovered for what he was, which is he had Tom Brady.

Steve: 2:37

Yeah.

Matt: 2:39

He had Tom Brady and he acted like an asshole. And he had this whole way that was going to win championships. He wasn't a very good coach before Tom Brady. He hasn't been a very good coach after.

Steve: 2:50

Right. Okay.

Matt: 2:51

Dokey.

Steve: 2:52

Right. Um, yeah. I mean, it's been pretty obvious at this case. And that's not to say he didn't have something to do with it. But you're right. He had, you know, maybe arguably the best quarterback I'm going to play the game. Um, and, uh, yeah. We'll see, and it says, we'll see. I mean, it's this first year, but he is getting pounded. He's getting slapped around

Matt: 3:14

getting pounded.

Steve: 3:16

Yeah. I mean, getting pounded it all different ways, right? Especially, especially with this girlfriend.

Matt: 3:22

Yeah. It's granddaughter. I mean his girlfriend. Yeah. So I'm bringing this up because, you know, resentment's not a good thing. You can't, you can't just wallow and romanticize the people you don't like. And here's where this comes from. I stumbled upon on YouTube a podcast that Steve Kameko has. This looks like it's relatively new. It's called Still Here Hollywood. And it looks like he's going back and interviewing people you haven't seen in the spotlight in a long time. And I came upon Larry Wilcox. There we will cox was on chips a show I loved as a kid. Eric Estrada Ponce and Larry Wilcox is the other guy who off the top of my mind. My head. I cannot remember his name. So we turn the mics off. I'll remember Larry Wilcox's name. But you know, he's the blonde guy. And there's a clip there that I saw about how he said Eric Estrada got him fired.

Larry Wilcox: 4:26

At the time, it seemed to me like I was working with the biggest egotistical asshole I'd ever met in my life, swagged in and out of the toilet, swagged on the set, always hitting on every girl. Oh, he has his jacket. And my agent, says, "Hey, I just got a call from your friend over at NBC." And what, what friends that? And he said, "Brandon Tarticoff." you know, he loves your work I do. But they're gonna let you go on chips. What do you mean they're gonna let me go? He said,"Well, they're in a hard spot because... they were in the position that they had five years, but they needed that sixth year for syndication. Brandon said as much as he hates to do this, he really has no choice. And one day my brain clicked on as wild dude. Are you gonna wallow inventions? Does it make you happy? Do you wanna have a drink tonight over, and then another drink, and another drink, and then pissed off, and wanna get mad at someone? No. So as I'm gonna love on this guy, I'm gonna love on him unconditionally. So that's what I did. I just became his best friend, said, "Hey Betty, how are you doing? What can I do to help you?" In any stage that he won't upstairs me, I helped him. He always gets all the girls, no problem. Get with Ponce, do the photo with Ponce, he won't want to do that. I just compromised submitted submission on every single level, and I got back all the rewards. Now we have a great relationship, and we have lots of fun. I realized that my new lens when I look back is that it was a New Yorker from Harlem, grew up in a tough broken family, no trust, no loyalty, you know, all the things that screw up personalities, and why you taking a personal, he was fighting for his life to be the star of the series, and in a way, you were in his way. He didn't need any parasitic drag. He needed to move forward.

Matt: 6:26

And I'm thinking here, this takes a lot of inner strength to do that, when he took away a huge hit series, when TV was really important, and could have permanently damaged his career. And it would be understandable to hate this person forever. Instead, he decided to go the other way, and I'm like, this is recovery stuff. So, I don't know if he's in recovery, but this sure sounds like recovery language when I heard it, my ears peaked up. And I thought about us. How do we forgive those? What are those things look like? What are those tools? How does it come to the steps? What's your thoughts, Steve?

Steve: 7:18

Yeah, good morning, Matt, and everyone out there listening to this, whenever you're listening to it. Yeah, when you brought up this topic, and we talked a little bit about it before we hit the record button, it definitely is something that we talk about in a different way in recovery. The thing that immediately jumped to my mind is, when you do Joe and Charlie, we do some of these other study groups, they talk about resentments which is what this was. This was a resentment over him being fired. And they say resentments are like drinking poison in the other person to die. And if, and I think we can all relate to that, right? I mean, the other thing, you know, it's like this that sticks out to me. And something my wife and I were just talking about. My wife is still recovering from some issues, so she goes a lot of places in wheelchair. We were all to eat the other day and we use a wheelchair because just easier for her to be in a wheelchair. And she says, "Do you ever wonder?" She said, "What do you think people are thinking about why I'm in a wheelchair?" And I said, "First of all, you think that people are thinking about you way more than

Matt: 8:35

are?"

Steve: 8:36

they

Matt: 8:36

Yes.

Steve: 8:37

Right? And I said,"That's just a normal human thing, but we talk about that kind of stuff and AA all the time." And I'm like, "People don't. I mean, you're just a person in a wheelchair. But what I, what we talk, what I talk about is like this resentment whole thing. I mean, I realize it, right? The other thing I thought about was myself. And there's a thing out there, expression and social media is what people say, "Don't be a hater, right?

Matt: 9:06

a

Steve: 9:06

Don't be

Matt: 9:07

hater."

Steve: 9:08

And, and I identified it as a hater, right? Oh,

Matt: 9:12

me

Steve: 9:12

too, right.

Matt: 9:13

Skills are all

Steve: 9:14

Right, so right, so I was like, oh no, that's me, they're talking and I don't like that, right? I don't like, oh, I fall into it. I remember when people started using that I stumbled upon that that term like, oh, I don't like that, but it's true. It's really it's true and that is something that I think about and I think about I should probably change that for my own good and I have somewhat But it sort of also falls into this category, right? This resentment this hate, you know and and when I think about that of like, who is that bothering nobody but me, right?

Matt: 9:48

started.

Steve: 9:49

So it it turns me up inside, right? Because that's what happens. But if I get into that hate mode on a social media thing, I've been trying to pull back my trolling tendencies, right? Of not commenting on things that I really don't just because it makes me feel better. And and this is the whole thing like, what, who does that impact? It impacts me and how I'm feeling. So I've I've been working on that very recently, like trying to change that in myself, um, and this is that perfect thing to talk about. Like, how do you deal with somebody that you hate? There are plenty of people out and especially in this political environment that sort of fall into that category for me. And it's like, so how do we, how do we deal with this? Not that not that we have to like that person or love that person, but how do we deal with that internally so that we don't have that emotional drag? Because being, being hateful or being resentful, it's really a dark place that you don't want to stay in. Even even if you're not an alcoholic, but if you're an alcoholic, it becomes a little bit more dangerous, maybe a lot more dangerous for some of us. Uh, so definitely something that we work on, lots of different tools that we talk about, right? Well, I'm sure we'll talk about someone as we go on, um, of how we get, uh, how we change that in ourselves.

Matt: 11:16

I can so relate with being a world class troller. It's one of the reasons I like Reddit, because you get scored on your post.

Steve: 11:26

Oh,

Matt: 11:26

so if you are trolling in a bad way, they'll just vote you down and you lose points. You've got a total point score that you have based on your user. ID, the more points you get, the more likely your post is to go to the top. And if you get voted down, you could really get harmed with your ability to actually reach. So you could sit there and troll people all day long. If people are just downvoting you, nobody's ever going to see it. So it doesn't matter. So it incentivizes you on Reddit to be your best person or, you know, if you've got a joke, make it land the right way that people get it and it's not hurtful or it's something positive or constructive. You are incentivized to be more constructive, which is why I kind of avoid some of the other ones, just, I don't know. And I try and go with the thought process of what I say this to the person to their face. And it's hard, but it don't. And there are lots of people who have wronged me that it's upsetting. And this is something that A. A has really helped me with. There have been lots of times the people that I resent, I've gotten on my knees and prayed for. It is one of those things that you can do and not pray, you know, dear God, please make this person. Their ainess fall out and it be horrible. No, you don't do it that way. It's like, you know, dear God, this person is really bothering me. I pray for them to have the happiness, joy and things in life that I would want for myself or I have prayed, you know, dear God, there is something going on in this person, rubs me the wrong way. This person may be behaving this way because they're unhappy, help them find what is going to fulfill them. And if you do this enough times, you eventually are going to believe it. And it does just, I had people in my mind I was thinking about as I was like reciting that prayer and in my stomach, I felt better. Just a little bit like, ah, I feel this calm. And this is something that really works. How, how is, how have you tried that, Steve? You have,

Steve: 14:02

I have tried it and I'll tell you I'll try it. And, you know, I give a shout out to Edson so much because he's the guy who

Matt: 14:11

me

Steve: 14:11

will will tell

Matt: 14:12

he is like Zen master on

Steve: 14:14

He

Matt: 14:14

this stuff.

Steve: 14:14

is. He is, he, and he's the guy who will tell me to do that kind of stuff. And I remember first time, I ever tried it, like I went to Edson with this issue and he asked me to have you tried praying for this person. I'm like, no, I mean, why would I pray for this person? And he said, well, you should go, you should try it. He goes, you should pray for this person every day for two weeks. So that's sort of like the guideline in A. Every day you pray for this person. And like I said, it's got to be honest. It's got to be genuine. It's got to be something. And so I did. I went home because this was something I really needed to do as a family member. And I did that. And lo and behold, after two weeks of doing that, I felt better. Right? I felt better. And that's the key, right? I'm not sure much changed, except maybe a little movement in my own heart and my own head, but it worked for me. So I have since done it several times and for several different things, mostly for people, is what I'm going to pray for, something like that. And every time it has worked for me. So I haven't had to do it recently, because I don't carry a lot of really big resentments. I'm way these days much less judgmental, especially in a long view, words like I could

Matt: 15:44

judge somebody

Steve: 15:45

on a short-term action, but not in a long view that makes them a bad person. So I'm much better with that. So I don't carry that kind of stuff that I feel I need to fix that. And, but there are some things that I've talked about, I've talked about it at my Wednesday meeting, how there's some things that in the world again, I don't wanna bring it, but in the world, in this world of politics were so divided, right? And in this rooms, in the rooms of AA, there are people that I know are literally 180 degrees, right? Like we are total associates in politics. Yet, I like these people in the rooms. And I've been considering, there's a one person in particular that I've been considering reaching out to this person to try to open up a dialogue as to why are we like that? Why are we like that? Why does this person who works in a construction trade field who you would think is a hard working, like why? Like, why do we have this different, probably a union guy, right? Like why do we have these differences? And I haven't done it yet because it's a little bit scary for me, but just open up a dialogue, so hey, do you wanna get some coffee together, talk to it? Tell me how you got where you got, and I'll tell you how I got where I got, not sure where it will go. Some things have happened in this other person's life that I've had to postpone it. And, but I think I need to do that from my own sake. I think that'll help me with a lot of this stuff going on, right?

Matt: 17:23

Yes.

Steve: 17:24

So, those are the type of things in AA, right? Like, I would have never thought about, I guess this is what I'm trying to say, I would have never thought about doing something like that unless I was in this program.

Matt: 17:37

No, me neither.

Steve: 17:37

Okay, right? Plus, I probably would have never been exposed to this person, right, because we talk about, in AA, it brings a lot of strange bed fellows together, right? It's the whole Titanic going down, which they talk about, and Joe and Charlie, and they talk about stuff like, or, and they talk about it in the big book, like, when the Titanic is syncing, it's no longer, you know, first class and storage class, it's like, all human beings trying to survive, right? And you sort of band together. AA is a lot like that, right? Is that we get together? We all have this problem. We all share these things. People from all different walks of life have the same issues. So, I would have never been exposed to that. And in the manner that we are in recovery, to give me, and this is the point, to give me the opportunity to look inside myself, and then maybe take action, and do something to make myself a better human being.

Matt: 18:34

You're making me think of a conversation I had with somebody I work with who happens to be in Aeronon, so she knows the recovery program. We've talked a little bit about it. In my recovery program, her recovery program, we have that in common. Politically, we're not the same. And when Charlie Kirk passed away, I, so it's funny that the Charlie Kirk thing, my hairdresser brought up Charlie Kirk about an hour before he died, and she's talking about my husband needs to get more politically active. He needs to know what these people are doing. She brought up him and andrytate. Saying, you know, they don't know what's going on. And I remarked that the one thing that bothered me the most about Charlie Kirk was his haircut. uh, I'm like, he needs to come in here and have you... like, his haircut just bothered me. But more than anything, the thing that bothered me the most about him was that hairstyle. I'm like, yo make a lot of money. It's like I look at JB Pritzker and I'm like, with all that money, you can't... like, if I was that heavy and I had that much money, I would just go and buy a GLP one for myself and do it. Like, you have the money to do it. Why would you not just do

Steve: 19:58

it?

Matt: 19:59

This make it easy. And then he passed and I was gutted by it, not knowing him and not being a big fan of his beliefs, but just gutted saying, you know, this is not... and I don't know if I would've felt this way if it wasn't for recovery, that it was, I'm gutted by this. This is not the way. And I fear for what's going to happen in this country that... and it's just like 31 years old, he has a family. What if someday he modified his beliefs? I've modified my beliefs over time. What if he changed? What if he became something different? And now that's never going to happen of what could be... and I just was so sad and my friend at work was posting a bunch of stuff. I mean, she was on fire because she was... she was a big fan and lived that life and I reached out and I said, you know, you're my friend. I can see you really upset and I'd like to know more. And I mention I like... I wasn't a listener. I'm not a big fan, but I agree with you that this is bad. So let's chat. You tell... I'd love to know a little bit more. And recovery has done that politically with other people. There are certain political leaders that I don't have used for on either side because I see the manipulation. I see the... in genuine, that the people are in genuine at that high level. But like a construction worker, I want to look at that person and I think through... I wonder, even though there are some things that might... you're hurting yourself with your beliefs. If you get the policies that you want, it's actually going to hurt you. So why would you do that? And I think through... I bet there was pain before and there's a lot where we have left people behind. And so I understand wanting to follow somebody who is saying you're not going to be left behind anymore. Things like that. Even people who are doing like the worst things, I want to look at them and say, there's something there that brings you there based on goodness. Even if I don't like how it comes out. I assume goodness. And I think a lot about... does evil really exist? Or is just your point of view based on good intentions get you there? I mean, I think evil obviously exists at the worst. But with a lot of people, you're like, "Oh, that's an thought." Is it really? Or is it their point of view that has brought somebody there that makes them hold the sign the way they do?

Steve: 22:59

Yeah, I think that's a good point. Again,

Matt: 23:02

And I bring up the politics thing in here because I think it comes in this resentment thing. If

Steve: 23:07

oh, yeah.

Matt: 23:08

you can look at somebody you disagree with whatever it is and try and find there's a good... Because there's a good reason I believe what I believe, there must be a good reason they do.

Steve: 23:21

And this is the point, right? Is that,again , we don't want to make this political at all.

Matt: 23:27

No, just using it as an example.

Steve: 23:28

Right, but we're talking about it because there's so much division. And there's no question that... And I always think about this. I've talked about this in other aspects too. Early on, before I ever knew I was an alcoholic, before I even thought that that was something I could possibly become, I could remember observing other people. Handle situations, either with kids or whatever that might be, and marveling at the fact that how they were able to calmly handle that situation where I knew I would have lost my ship. And thinking, man, I wish I could do that, right? And so when I got to AA, I started to realize that there's normal people out there who do a lot of these things we're talking about, they just do it, right? And I talked about doing little volunteer work and there's a woman who I do work with there, who I watch do this kind of stuff. And I told her, and she listens to this podcast. And I've told her that I aspire to be more like her. She' like one of the kindness. And she has some strong views and stuff like that. And I look at that person like, "Ooh, I need to be more like that." But that takes work for me to be more like that, where some people do it naturally. So when we come into this program for me to come into a program of recovery, and I had to start looking inward instead of outward, right, which is what we do, we look inward instead of outward. And then I had to start asking for help, and I had to start asking for help from people who probably I would have never associated with, like I probably would have never been around. It's changed how I look at all of this stuff. So today when I look at something, again, I always look at, I look today, I take a bigger picture of stuff, mostly, of like what's going, just like I said, what's going on? This person is coming, this person is coming to this place differently than me, why, what it is. And, and I'll tell you, for me, right, it was easy for me to just write it off. This is my point again. I won't, but I was easy for me to say in the past, oh, that person's just racist. No, right, right? Just to assign that person some things that I don't like. And today, like I realize I can't do that, right? Oh, this person must be this way in order to get to that point. That's why it's important for me to get to do some of this work so that I can understand that no, no, no, that's not the way it works. Because again, when I start doing that kind of stuff, all it's doing is causing me pain and misery. Right? I don't, I don't leave those thoughts, those conversations that I'm having in my own head by myself feeling great. Maybe I feel a little bit better by myself. Oh, I'm glad I'm not like that person, right? I could do, I could pull that kind of stunt too. But today, I don't, because I realize it doesn't do me much good. Now, having said that, I also don't want to check out. Right? I don't want to check out of life, like, okay, which is something I hear a lot in the A, well, I'm just going to check out. I can't do anything about that stuff. So I'm going to check out. I don't want to do that either. So it's trying to find this balance, trying to find this life. How do I find this? How do I, how do I live in today's world? Without this stress and anxiety, because I drank over stress and anxiety, right?

Matt: 27:22

Yep.

Steve: 27:22

Those were the reasons why I drank for other different types of stress and anxieties. So why would I want to put myself in that position, and put myself at more risk of drinking? So I get why people want to check out. Right? People want to protect themselves, protect their, their families, their sobriities, so they check out. So this is something I've been thinking a lot about very recently, like within the last few days, like, how do I do this? How do I stay calm, not anxious? You know, part of it's been I've stumbling upon some people about western Buddhist meditation stuff.

Matt: 28:01

Yeah,

Steve: 28:03

and trying to figure out some of that whole path for myself. So it's complicated. It's complicated. But, but you know, it's also a gift that we can do this type of work. That's, and that's what I always said, let's be here about it all the time and I'm so glad I'm an alcoholic and I found recovery because this is what it allows me to do the do this type of work. Again, that's some people do normally, but I didn't do normally. I needed to find these rooms for an order for me to do it.

Matt: 28:35

I use this mindset. It's become muscle memory for me. In coaching people, it has helped me not be authoritarian, an autocrat as a leader.

Steve: 28:51

Right.

Matt: 28:52

I'm not having my own way, and there are some times that I get. So for instance, I, I make a lot of videos for work and I put a lot of work into my boss said, sometimes you just need to cut it up. And it doesn't have to look fancy. And that's stung because I want what I put out to look great. And I put a lot of effort in. And there's some money we spend into some level I agree with her to other level. I don't, but we can get to that same place. Yes, I think short term we can just put some stuff out, but I also think long term, we're in competition with other people, other departments and there are other people who make stuff look more professional. So the other path is I could do this all the time spend a lot of time, or there's some things I can automate. What are some things that I can spend a little bit of time on that I'm going to use as an element every single time. And now I'm not putting all that extra effort in, but I have banked some things to save time or I could recreate this stuff every single time. What I'm trying to get at is there is always a path to get where you want to go. It doesn't have to be mine. And there are some times that I, somebody else picks up that creative aspect for me and it hurts every time. It's, I want to punch back, how dare you take this thing. And then, I think through, but what if they have an idea that might be better or different than mine? And I can't just say mine, mine, mine, mine, because that hurts the team environment too. So you have to have, you also have to let go and be a team player and say you do it. And then when they do it well, you did a great job. You know what, you did that even better than me. And you mean it. And that takes a lot, that's, that's hard to do. But you're letting go of being possessive and saying nobody else can do it better than me. And then you learn from that. There are just, and I, I do this with coaches, like I do this with coaches of, you know, I'm going to teach you how to sell something. There is, I'm going to go through a way. If you can show me you have a better way to get to that same place, then we're going to do that. And there's some times that I have changed what my approach was going to be because I was humble enough, humbles a good word, humble enough to do it their way, stumbling upon it word, humble. This takes humility and being humble to be open to different ideas and to letting go and to surrendering and to thinking through maybe somebody else, their mindset can get us to where we go better what I think is that heart, that held belief that I have that I believe in, that I have to second guest now. Because sometimes a lot of this resentment's about us. I have my own beliefs and you were challenging them.

Steve: 32:15

Right. Yeah, that's very interesting that you talked right? He brought us to humility, hum, you know, being humble. And it's such a key thing and it's always been such a struggle for me. You know, I tell the story, I tell it often and I remember before I came in my wife and I were struggling and we were having a big fight. And I remember her telling me in one of our arguments, you know what you need, you

Matt: 32:45

some

Steve: 32:46

humility. And I always say, and it always gets a laugh in the room. And I said, then I showed up here and you guys told me that I needed some humility. Right. And, you know, there's lots of reasons for that, right. And it's not that I thought, you know, I was better than everybody, although there were times I did. But I was just such a control person. I didn't trust other people to do just like you were talking about, right. I didn't have that confidence to do it a lot. And again, there's a whole history of that of why I ended up in that place. But today, today, I could recognize that again, not perfect with it, but I could recognize it. And just like you're talking about, right? Like you still want to do it perfectly. You still want to put out that thing. But you can recognize that maybe it would be better to back off a little bit.

Matt: 33:39

Yeah.

Steve: 33:40

And again, these are the, these are the lessons that I didn't get anywhere else. Okay. Just where I where I was brought up in life and in the and the upbringing that I had and growing up, I talked about it all time. Very poor six kids. No money. There weren't these type of lessons being taught in my house. But in fact, I helped my wife tie her shoes. Right. This is just a simple thing. And I was tying her shoes. And she's like, Oh, you tie your shoes differently than I do. And she said, I'm surprised you even know how to sort of jokingly. I'm surprised. You even know how to tie shoes with six kids in your house. And I said, I probably learned it in Kenned Garden, right? Like my point is, like I she's probably right. Right. I didn't get taught how to tie my shoes at home. I probably learned it when I went to Kenned Garden because there just was too much going on in my house. So a lot of the lessons I had to learn came from other places. And a lot of those lessons didn't really sink in until I got to recovery. And because and then what happened was they got, you know, a lot of my life they got blurred out because I thought alcohol was my answer to a lot of things. Right. So instead of dealing with stuff, I drank. But the humility part is something that I've really had to come to learn. Like I said, and what's happened with that it's become less judgmental because of it. Right. So there's a lot to be said on this subject. We can probably talk about it for hours.

Matt: 35:11

Yeah.

Steve: 35:13

Because it's it is such a big thing. But just it's absolutely right. We that that simple little tool that we have in our recovery program to pray for that person that we have a resentment for. We don't like whether you believe in prayer or not. The other thing I've been told by my buddy Edson and I tell him well, kind of agnostic. I don't really think like, who cares? Just put it out there in the universe. Right. Put it out there. Don't. And like, so even to go through those actions of doing that still work for me. And I know they work for me. So I always have that tool that when, when the pain gets too much for me, and it's our talk about, so all those resentment pains, those are pains that I feel when they get too much for me, and it takes me a while to get there, then I'll have to get down on my knees and pray for that person in order to make myself feel better.

Matt: 36:13

Before we go, I got through all the

Steve: 36:15

finally,

Matt: 36:16

emails, and we have fans in Moscow, somebody reached out in Moscow, talked about an expat group there, and there are people listening, so that was very humbling, got an email from Canada, also very humbling when, it's like, really how, how the hell did this get to Canada and Russia? How is that possible? So I, I am appreciative, any, anytime somebody reaches out, because it lets me know that we're making an impact on one person, and that, that means a lot, that us kind of sitting in our basements, talking into a computer, is doing something to spread the message and helping somebody recover. And at superfriendspod.com, if you ever want to reach out and try not to be so slow, it, procrastinating

Music: 37:12

back.

Matt: 37:12

and getting Steve, thanks for being

Music: 37:16

today.

Matt: 37:16

vulnerable Help me get this through.

Music: 37:21

Talk to you soon.

Matt: 37:22

See everybody next week, bye everybody!

Music: 38:03

[Music](upbeat music)