When You're Still Hurting: How God Brings Emotional Healing | Evan Marbury

Many of us don't realize how deeply trauma shapes our relationships, view of God, and everyday reactions. Past wounds can leave us feeling stuck, disconnected, or unsure how to move forward—but healing is possible through Christ.

In this episode, Ellen talks with pastor and licensed therapist Dr. Evan Marbury. Together, they discuss why healing often takes more than time, how lament becomes part of God's healing work, and what it means to pursue emotional healing without ignoring pain or bypassing it with easy answers.

You'll learn:

• What trauma is—and how it's different from ordinary pain
• Why some wounds don't heal with time alone
• How Scripture speaks to trauma, grief, and emotional healing
• The role of lament in emotional healing
• How to care well for someone carrying deep emotional pain
• When seeking professional counseling can be a wise next step
• How God meets us with compassion, truth, and hope. 

Whether you're carrying wounds of your own or walking alongside someone who is hurting, this conversation will encourage you to move toward healing, wholeness, and deeper trust in God.

Understanding Trauma and Resilience: A Guide for Counselors, Caregivers, and Ministers by Evan Marbury

Scripture referenced:
Luke 10:25-37 | John 5:1-15 | Psalm 13 | Romans 15:13

Resources:
EvanMarbury.com | ESV | Journal | Logos (get a free trial here!) | Blue Letter Bible

Nothing to Prove, Nothing to Earn: 6 Choices to Live Free From Striving and Performance. Get yours here!

Get your copy of the CSB Women's Study Bible here!

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Evan Marbury 0:56

We move towards trauma so that we can better move towards obedience in Christ because He is our place of flourishing. There are so many people that feel cut off from flourishing because of these wounds that they are carrying, cut off from wholeness and health. And we get the sacred opportunity to bring marvelous light to that darkness and watch the Lord work.

Ellen Krause 1:22

The Coffee and Bible Time Podcast. Our goal is to help you delight in God's Word and thrive in Christian living. Each week we talk to subject matter experts who broaden your biblical understanding, encourage you in hard times, and provide life-building tips to enhance your Christian walk. We are so glad you have joined us. Hi friends, I'm so excited that you're joining us today. I had such a great conversation with Evan, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it too. But before we jump in, I wanted to share this comment from a listener. Heather writes, I love how this podcast makes Bible study feel warm, personal, and alive. Every conversation points back to intimacy with Jesus and reminds me that time in the Word is meant to be a two-way relationship, such a refreshing space for anyone longing to hear God's voice more clearly. Thank you so much, Heather. That means so much to us that you took the time to make the comment. We really welcome all of your thoughts and feedback. If you have something that you'd like to share, comment, question, or testimony of how God has been working in your life. We would love to hear it and share it in a future episode. To write in, leave a comment, review, or click in the link in the show notes that says send us fan mail. I can't wait to hear from you. Okay, back to the conversation. Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. I'm Ellen, your host. Whether we realize it or not, every single day we encounter people carrying wounds that we can't see. Some are walking through grief while others are recovering from abuse, betrayal, abandonment, and other experiences that have shaped the way they see themselves, other people, and even God. And if we're honest, many of us are carrying hurts of our own. So how does the gospel speak into trauma? And what does true healing actually look like in Christ? Well, our guest today is pastor and licensed therapist Dr. Evan Marbury. He holds degrees in psychology, counseling, and theology, and he's here to offer biblical wisdom alongside practical insight for anyone seeking to care for the hurting or to better understand their own story. Evan, we're so thankful that you're here. Welcome to the podcast.

Evan Marbury 4:04

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Ellen Krause 4:07

Absolutely. Well, why don't we start out with just first understanding what trauma actually is?

Evan Marbury 4:15

That's a good question. So this is an important question that honestly gave rise to this book. So trauma is a type of pain. In the book, I say that there is pain that hurts and pain that alters. Trauma is pain that alters. It is a wounding event that has led to rupture to our sense of being. It has overwhelmed us beyond our ability to cope. It has affected how we relate to ourself, our relationships, our world, our God. And it's important to make that distinction because that kind of pain needs a more particular response to heal. You know, people say, you know, time heals all wounds. Yeah, sometimes time also can cause infections and sepsis, right? So there are wounds that we carry that that need more than just time. And time could actually bring confusion because you think you should be healed after all this time has passed from an experience you've had. But sometimes you need time and attentive care to heal.

Ellen Krause 5:12

Absolutely. Well, as you mentioned, um, trauma can start to sound overused, and others might hesitate to apply it to their own experiences. We get caught up in this cycle of, well, that wasn't that bad. Other people have had it much worse.

Evan Marbury 5:28

Yeah.

Ellen Krause 5:28

How do you help people think about trauma without either minimizing it or exaggerating it?

Evan Marbury 5:36

Yeah, I think trauma is often conceptualized in three categories as the event, the experience, and the effect. So there there's usually some event that this is tied to or a series of events. So we we all experience the event of you know the COVID pandemic, for example, but we we didn't we don't experience it the same way. And so how we experience it has has its own effect. And more often than not, when when people are coming and sitting down with me, I I hear a lot of refrain of minimizing and exaggerating. And I think where I want to be most helpful in spending our time together is w what are the particularities of your story that seem affected right now? Regardless of if you know, compared to this person or that person, it's it's better or worse. Because you're acknowledging there is something that is ruptured, and regardless of you know what it looks like in other people's lives, it's looking like this in your life. And I want to support you in experiencing fullness and wholeness and experience healing, you're wounded. Uh, and we don't have to put a ranking system on your wound. We can just take the time that you think you need to experience healing.

Ellen Krause 6:47

Well, thank you so much for sort of helping us really get to the point that what you're feeling and what you have gone through matters, right? That's really what I'm hearing you say, and that we don't need to minimize it or compare ourselves. It's very important to address it. And what I found so interesting was that you said statistically, at least half of the people we meet have experienced trauma. So why is it important for every Christian and not just counselors or pastors to have a better understanding of trauma?

Evan Marbury 7:24

Yeah. Well, for starters, it's so that we can have a better understanding of who we are in community with. Right. So everyone's story matters. And when we miss critical aspects of someone's story, we fall short in caring for them effectively. Um, you know, therapist Michael John Cusick, he describes trauma-informed care as not only understanding life experiences that shape an individual, but also how a person experiences their care. So, in other words, Bible study is incredible and encouraging words incredible. There, but there's a reason why Jesus did not just teach all the time, though he could have, but he he took into consideration people's particular life experiences. And so he didn't approach blind Bartimaeus the same way as the woman at the well. He engaged what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called the ministry of listening. Jesus never had to ask questions, but he did, because even listening and engaging someone's story as it is presented has its own ministry effect. And so a better understanding should lead to better care of someone's story. So it's a it's a really important opportunity uh to gain some understanding around these things.

Ellen Krause 8:39

Absolutely. And it's it's a way that we can love people by learning about them and their stories. And I love that you want to help equip us to better care for people that have experienced trauma. Well, Evan, you served as a pastor and military chaplain as well as a therapist. Was there a particular person or moment in ministry that sort of fundamentally changed how you think about healing and resilience?

Evan Marbury 9:07

Yeah, this question actually draws me back to when I was an addiction counselor for teens and young adults in a residential recovery program. Every single one of them had trauma, severe trauma, and it led to them coping in destructive ways. And there was one client that was particularly agitated, and I can understand why. And it turns out he was making plans to end his life. And the more I asked questions, the more he would make statements that were signaling to me, oh, he doesn't plan to be here much longer. And so I had to call the authorities, I called my supervisor. It was a very stressful ordeal as police cars and ambulances and even fire trucks uh showed up, and all for this one young man who was contemplating a self-destructive decision. Uh now I thought that after that, that uh after all that had gone on, that these guys in this program would never trust me again. I mean, I'm the guy that snitched on someone that was hurting, but they actually became more honest with me. Uh and as I reflected on why that was, there were several reasons, but but one that feels relevant to this question was that they knew that I took their pain and their well-being seriously. They believed that I would do what was necessary for them to experience healing when they had grown up being used to people throwing them away for for hurting too much, for being an inconvenience with their pain. And so they shared more vulnerably with me, and we talked more deeply about what recovery could look like, and that was very paradigm shifting for me, and it impacted how I showed up in many of these ministry experiences and spaces that you listed here. And you know, you mentioned resilience. You know, I talk about in the book that resilience is God-centered self-direction, and that should always be in view when you're caring for trauma-affected people. We move towards trauma so that we can better move towards obedience in Christ because He is our place of flourishing. There are so many people that feel cut off from flourishing because of these wounds that they are carrying, cut off from wholeness and health. And we give the sacred opportunity to bring the marvelous light to that darkness and watch the Lord work. That's the essence of resilience, and I've seen it time and time again, and it's just so beautiful to see the Lord work in that way.

Ellen Krause 11:26

Absolutely. And for me, someone who's who's been on that side before of to the point of wanting to end my life and process trauma, the processing of it was so incredibly helpful, and there is this recovery that is possible. I feel like having processed through the things that I've gone through and coming out the other side, you see just how great our God is, and that there's nothing worth giving up on. There's nothing worth giving up on because nothing's impossible for God.

Evan Marbury 12:08

Absolutely. Yeah. It's just so, and and you would think that people would assume that they know that, especially if they're Christian, that's where a lot of shame often comes in of like, I should have more hope. And and yet there is so much to just acknowledging, I'm not experiencing the hope that like these things are not piercing down into my soul. There's an experience I'm having. I think it's just wonderful when someone has the courage to acknowledge that. But also for the person that's caring for them to be able to receive that without trying to rush past it, because that is the place of the ministry of listening can really take effect.

Ellen Krause 12:43

Yeah. So let's talk about that a little more because most of us aren't therapists. We're moms and friends and small group leaders. How can just ordinary Christians become safe people for those carrying trauma? And maybe share with us like, are we to take the first step in asking people about it if we know about it, or do we let them come to us?

Evan Marbury 13:09

Well, when I hear that question, I love the story of the good Samaritan, that parable by Jesus, because the Samaritan was the least expected person to care for the wounded person in the ditch. The professionals and religious experts were the ones that missed them and avoided them, and the one who culturally would have been considered the least qualified showed himself to be a neighbor. So the Samaritan, he did all these things to care for the wounded person, to move where they were, show compassion. But the story ends with him widening the circle of care for the wounded person. He was the first responder. He took the time and energy to see and move towards, and he didn't stop there. He widened the circle of care by bringing this wounded person to the innkeeper. And what's implicit in that is a willingness to embrace the limitations and caring for this person. You are not the only person to care for them. And so how can we use what we have, the capacity that we have, but also embrace the limitations as well? And in the book, I talk about being mindful of your competence, your capacity, and your context when thinking about the limitations of care. Yes, we should all care. Yes, we are all the body of Christ, yes, we have the Holy Spirit. And also, it is not uh shameful or embarrassing to say I don't have the competence to address all that needs to be addressed here. I can be helpful, again, first responder, but I I don't actually have the tools to bring the scope of healing that would actually be most helpful for you. And so I'm acknowledging my limitations. I'm not just passing you off to the professional or the therapist. I I want to be part of your circle of care, but I want to also widen your circle of care so that your healing can expand the scope of your woundedness. And also, you might not always have the capacity. If you're a small group leader, if you're a mom, you know, if you got there's multiple things going on. What's beautiful about the Samaritan is that he left. Uh he he paid for the instay, he's told the innkeeper, do what you need to do, and he continued on in what he was doing in his life. We we should embrace the limits of our capacity. Uh, there are other things going on. You are not designated as a therapist to this person, so just be mindful of your capacity, and then and then context is like, yeah, it's sometimes you need a carved out space to really engage this well. And so is is this the right context for this depth of sharing and disclosure? And and all these should be curious questions. And to the extent that you're saying no, that this isn't the right context, well, what is the yes in that? And you and you're helping them discern that together because there's often still some stigma around going to therapy. Is there am I particularly broken if I if I go to a therapist? Is there something particularly wrong with me? And I and I talk about therapy as an added resource amongst the the wellspring of resources that are in your life. You have wonderful relationships, you have hopefully a wonderful community, whether that's church or otherwise. And right now, those resources are not spanning the scope of the healing that you need. And therapy can be an added resource that can really help you span the scope. And once you feel like life is more manageable in these areas that feel dysfunctional, then you should feel at liberty to end therapy or make adjustments so that you can again engage a self-directed life. And so just stay curious in all of that. Both in your caring for someone, but also if you're someone listening, it's like, wow, do I need something more? And what does it look like to need something more? Is it okay to go after it?

Ellen Krause 16:37

Yes. And it's okay to need a level of therapy at one point in your life, at not one point, and then maybe later on again at one point, because right? Our our lives are ever evolving and different needs and situations arise, and so there's nothing wrong with going back to if you need to.

Evan Marbury 17:00

Yeah.

Ellen Krause 17:00

Evan, what would you suggest if let's say there's someone that you're encouraging to see a therapist and they they don't want anything to do with it? Is there any special way that you should handle that conversation? Just kind of let them be and pray about it?

Evan Marbury 17:19

Well, certainly prayer is a is a good a good step. And also if if someone is is not curious, then you have an opportunity to uh to model curiosity. Usually what uh becomes the more decisive factor to go to therapy is that there's a sense of stuckness or unmanageability about life, that you're using all the resources of maybe prayer and scripture reading and going to church and listening to sermons or reading books, and there still feels like, ah, I'm not progressing in this area as I would want there to be. Uh, I think that's the place of like, okay, well, you have not exhausted all your resources. And so if you're open to it, would love to talk about expanding the resources that you have, one of those being therapy. Uh and now, and once they start talking about therapy, there's often a lot of questions on what kind of advice they might give or background they might have, like you know, how will I pay for it or how I make time for it. All those things are really good. And also, you know, I think of the man at the pool of Bethesda, when Jesus said, Do you want to be healed? The man's response was all the reasons why he had obstacles to his healing. And Jesus held before him, yeah, all those obstacles were there. Do you want to be healed? Right? That that was the question that was was lingering, not what are all the obstacles to your healing that are making this slow. And so I think that's the the place of of questioning as well. Well, do you want to be healed? Yes, there might be obstacles, yes, there might be setbacks, yes, this has been long in the making. Do you want to be healed? If you want to be healed, what is the next step that actually move towards healing as opposed to focusing on the obstacles that make it feel like it's impossible?

Ellen Krause 19:45

Right, right, right. That's so helpful, so helpful. You had mentioned that sometimes well-meaning Christians say things that perhaps don't come across the best to someone who's actually hurting, like, well, God works all things together for good, and maybe just not truly addressing someone's pain. What are those biblical truths though that we we can help someone with that wouldn't dismiss what they're going through?

Evan Marbury 20:17

Yeah, I like the word um in that is uh is is bypassing. When I hear you ask that question, I think of spiritual bypassing. It's it's a problem in in church culture sometimes where we want to use spiritual language and and even scripture to move past an issue with the least amount of disruption. I mean, going around it or bypassing it can feel more efficient and attractive than walking through it, because walking through it can often feel very hard and messy. And so trauma is not something you can bypass in healing. You you have to move towards it and process through it, which is usually very inefficient. Uh yes, we always have hope, and yes, all things do work together for the good. That is scripture, and yet we miss the ministry of listening in that sometimes. Again, Bonhoeffer wrote, uh, we need to grow in listening with the ears of God so that we can better speak the words of God. We could be in danger of being trite and cliche if we have not also incorporated lament in our engagement. Lament should be a spiritual practice in processing trauma because it helps us frame tragedy in a God-honoring way. I mean, just recently I was talking with a young lady in my church who has been dealing with chronic illness, and we just slowly walked through Psalm 13. How long, O Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? How long must I wrestle with my thoughts day after day and have sorrow in my heart? Right? That like that is given to us in scripture. That's an act of worship to raise those kinds of questions. And so the the danger of being cliche or danger of of dismissing often emerges when we don't give the proper space for that kind of lament to happen, right? Job is an example of that. Like his friends showed up for him and they sat in silence together, but then they started trying to make sense of it and they made a big mess of things.

Ellen Krause 22:17

Right.

Evan Marbury 22:18

So we can be uh in in danger of that if we're trying to be very neat in the progress of healing. Healing is often very messy, very inefficient, and it should raise these questions that are birthed out of tragedy and sorrow, and that's okay. You can do that full of faith, right? Psalm 13 is held together with Romans 8 28. All things work together. They don't have to negate each other. How can we incorporate them together?

Ellen Krause 22:45

Absolutely. You know, that reminds me of just this past week in our live Bible study that we do. We were just talking about the progression of that lament psalm being the person experiencing pain, having prayer about it, raising questions about it, remembering though what God has done in the past, and then having uh this heart of worship. And I think that just um you bringing up the this idea is so important.

Evan Marbury 23:19

Yeah.

Ellen Krause 23:20

Well, if there's someone listening to this who it's maybe really touched their heart that, you know, I'm wondering if I should maybe get some help. What would be the first step in them making that decision?

Evan Marbury 23:36

Yeah, so if it's getting help and In terms of trauma more broadly, um, I would wonder what's what's a trusted friend where you can be curious together. You know, Peter Levine, he's a psychiatrist, he says trauma is not just what happens to us, it's what happens within us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so trauma is a very lonely experience, and trauma recovery is a very lonely endeavor, and we need someone that can move towards us in that loneliness, that even as those feelings arise, we can reference and point to people that can be with us and not flinch, be with us and not be overtaken by the sharing of our wounds and our hurt. And so we just encourage you to take that risky step of letting someone in. Hopefully, you have someone in your life that that takes your your wounds and well-being seriously. And if not, again, I I would be curious about taking a step of therapy where there's a professional that knows how to frame that for you and and hopefully model that for you so that you can better practice that in your life.

Ellen Krause 24:37

Evan, you've so beautifully responded in such a way that if you're listening to this, I'm really encouraging you to think about what Evan said and just assess your own mental health. And like you said, God wants us to get us to the point of flourishing. I know many people who have gone through, and I myself have one of them who have been on the rocky hard side, but then also seen God do an amazing work in my life. So I know that it's possible. Amen. Kevin, amen. Your your book, which is so good, is called Understanding Trauma and Resilience, but you almost named it sacred care. Yeah. I love that phrase. Why do you think caring for wounded people is sacred work?

Evan Marbury 25:29

Yeah, I talk about that in my book. I was almost there, and then we had some good conversations with my publisher on that, and so we landed on the title that we have. Uh, and and I think any kind of care is sacred work, right? That's the danger we want to avoid, that there's a ranking system of sacredness. Any work of the gospel is holy and sacred. But at the same time, there are times when I'm counseling people, uh, whether as you know clinician or as a pastor or just as a friend, and we enter a threshold of vulnerability. Uh, we we cross a threshold of connection, a threshold of trust. And and once I cross that threshold, I know something has has changed for them. The amount of courage that they have stepped into is such an honor to behold. It feels like when Moses took off his sandals with the burning bush, you you behold the Lord's glory and it creates the sense of awe. You know, that that's what I feel when clients trust me with the most tender and vulnerable parts of their story. When they put words to these wounds for the first time, or at least the first time with me, it just means so much. Uh, you know, Diane Langberg, you know, says that trauma is a mission field. You know, is it is stepping into the darkness and pushing it back with God's marvelous light. And that is truly amazing work. And so when when those those moments happen of of particular courage and particular vulnerability, it just just feels like it is a sacred space that is worth honoring and protecting and coming back to and taking seriously.

Ellen Krause 27:01

Yes, yes. Well, it's getting to a soul level of being someone's most inner being. Well, it's just been incredible to learn more about this, Evan, from you. Where can our listeners go to get more information about you and your book, Understanding Trauma and Resilience?

Evan Marbury 27:22

Yeah, you can go to Amazon uh and you can find my book there. And you can contact me through my website, evanmarbury.com. I also do a little bit of writing there. Yeah, but besides that, I don't do much on social media. You could find me on social media, but it will be a very, very lonely page that you would find. But I think those places, Amazon and my website is where there's more activity going.

Ellen Krause 27:43

Excellent. And we will have links to both of those in our show notes. Evan, before I let you go, I have to ask some of our rapid fire coffee and bible time questions here. What is your go-to Bible and what translation is it?

Evan Marbury 27:57

Yeah, so when I was ordained several years ago, my church purchased a Bible for me, and it's just really special to me. And so anytime I preach or kind of do any teaching, I go to that Bible, and it's uh it's a ESV.

Ellen Krause 28:10

Excellent. Okay. Do you like to Bible journal or do any type of journaling? Do you have any favorite Bible journaling supplies?

Evan Marbury 28:19

Yeah, so I'm pretty simple with this. I I keep a journal and I try to write in it every day as I reflect and meditate. But I also have a second journal that I use for for scripture copying. So I have recently gotten the habit of just opening a book. I'm in Philippians right now, opening the book, and they're just writing out the verses. So not doing any reflection or questioning, but just kind of saturating myself in the scriptures. And so I write those out, and so I keep those two journals with me.

Ellen Krause 28:49

You know what? This is the second time in very recent interviews that I've had that people have talked about this writing out the scriptures and that it's so helpful. Okay, awesome. Lastly, what is your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?

Evan Marbury 29:07

Yes, I have to go with Logos, uh Bible software for that. It's uh it is a bit costly, but it's uh a one-stop shop for a variety of Bible study and ministry tools, and I use it fairly regularly for uh for Bible study and preaching, even counseling. There are some some uh some counseling resources there. Um so it is a cost, but it's a worthwhile cost. But I've also used like a blue letter bible, which is an online resource and it's free and it's it's been helpful as well.

Ellen Krause 29:34

Well, we love Logos here at Coffee and Bible Time. In fact, yeah. We definitely will put a link in our show notes that we can give you, our listeners, a free trial. I think it's 60 or 90 days, one of the two. So try it out for yourself because, like you said, it's it's it's mind-blowing how much information is in there. And I also have looked at the counseling materials that they have and found them very helpful as well. Well, Evan, thank you so much for joining us, for reminding us that caring for wounded people isn't just the work of counselors or pastors, but it's part of our calling as a believer. So it's just I appreciate your input so much.

Evan Marbury 30:20

Yeah, absolutely. And just again for for the listener or just for for our own souls, I ended the book with a benediction from Romans 15. And if it's okay, I'd love to say that benediction for for us and for our listeners. It's uh Romans 15, 13. It says, May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Ellen Krause 30:46

Amen. Amen. And with that, we will close out for today. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. Have a blessed day.