Peter Boolkah [00:06]
Hi, Peter Boolkah here. Welcome to today’s edition of The Transition Guy.
Joining me is keynote speaker and author David Meerman Scott.
David, thank you. It’s good to see you. It’s a great conference, isn’t it?
David Meerman Scott
It’s an absolutely epic conference.
Peter Boolkah
Your keynote was absolutely fantastic.
I’ve been following David for about ten years now, and he has spoken at several conferences I’ve hosted.
One of my go-to books is one of his earlier books. David is now on his eleventh book, aren’t you?
David Meerman Scott
Yes.
Peter Boolkah
One of your earlier books was The New Rules of Marketing & PR.
I think you’re on edition six or seven now.
David Meerman Scott [00:40]
It’s currently in its sixth edition, and I’m in the process of finishing the seventh edition.
It first came out in 2007. It has sold 400,000 copies in English and is available in 29 other languages. It has been a pretty remarkable result for that book.
Peter Boolkah
It’s a great book.
David Meerman Scott
Thank you.
Peter Boolkah [01:04]
You’ve been working on new material now, haven’t you?
David Meerman Scott
Yes.
Peter Boolkah [01:08]
It’s all about going forwards, never backwards. You’ve actually pivoted.
David Meerman Scott
Yes, thank you.
Peter Boolkah [01:16]
You’ve seen where the next trend needs to be.
David Meerman Scott
I think I was able to see the idea behind The New Rules of Marketing & PR before it happened.
Peter Boolkah
Yes, you did.
David Meerman Scott
It was the first book that really defined digital marketing, social media and real-time marketing.
What I see now, from the perspective of having seen that first, is that people have sometimes taken those ideas too far.
Peter Boolkah
In what respect?
David Meerman Scott
Digital marketing is great, but people are doubling down on it.
They’re concentrating on sending more and more email spam. They’re using artificial intelligence to interrupt people. You don’t even know whether you’re communicating with a bot.
There isn’t much authenticity in a lot of digital marketing. It is focused on throwing material out there rather than creating a human connection.
I think the pendulum has swung too far in that direction.
Peter Boolkah [02:35]
I would agree because I spend more time deleting emails than I do reading them.
David Meerman Scott [02:40]
Yes. It has become too easy to send another tweet or email or put up another video.
Digital communication isn’t going away. It is with us forever. But I think the pendulum will begin to swing back towards genuine human connection.
Peter Boolkah
What do you mean by that?
David Meerman Scott
We are physically together right now, talking to the audience because we’re here. We’re having a real, live conversation.
We met at a conference where real people are connecting with one another.
That is the initial aspect: the idea that you can be in touch with people personally. That becomes very important.
How can you create more ways to be genuinely and physically in touch with people? There are other ways to do it digitally, but the physical experience is particularly important.
Peter Boolkah [03:39]
I want to reinforce that because many of my colleagues conduct most of their interviews over Zoom.
I will never do one over Zoom. I would rather not interview someone because, for me, the person-to-person element means everything.
It’s the energy—the exchange of energy.
David Meerman Scott [03:59]
Yes. I think it’s really important.
I studied the idea of fandom. How do people become fans of something, and why do they become fans?
I’m a massive live-music fan. At the time we’re speaking, I’ve attended 790 live shows. I’ve been to 75 Grateful Dead concerts, for example. I love it.
I was talking to my daughter, Reiko. She’s now 26 years old, and she loves Harry Potter.
She has read every book multiple times, watched the films multiple times, visited the studio tour in London and gone to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter theme park in Florida. It’s epic.
We realised that we’re both enormous fans of different things—and everybody is a fan of something.
We examined what happens in the brain when someone becomes a fan. How can a company tap into that? How can an entrepreneur build fans of their business? How can an entrepreneur tap into existing fandoms to grow their business?
That became what we call Fanocracy, which is the title of the book.
Fanocracy is the idea that fans are the most important thing. Customers and relationships with people are the most important things.
Peter Boolkah
Fans are very different from followers and likes, aren’t they?
David Meerman Scott
Yes. A follower or like is merely someone who clicks a button.
A fan is someone who can’t wait to continue doing business with you or is incredibly excited about something.
It is about passion, shared passion and human connections.
What we realised about the things we love—I’m a huge live-music fan, while my daughter is a huge Harry Potter fan—is that it’s sometimes more about the people with whom we share the experience than the thing itself.
Live music is amazing because I’m there with my friends. I’m with people who are like me and with whom I can share the language.
At a Grateful Dead concert, there are particular ways we talk. There are rituals. The whole tribe comes together and wears certain clothes. Everybody is like-minded, and we feel comfortable in that environment.
That is true for all of us, whether it concerns a sporting activity, hiking, golf, a particular sports team or anything else.
Peter Boolkah [07:02]
Apple is one company that probably caught on to that quite early.
If you look at Apple users, they’re incredibly devoted.
David Meerman Scott [07:13]
Apple is a good example, but I prefer looking at smaller organisations that have built significant fan bases.
People look at Apple and say, “They’re the second-largest company on the planet.”
However, I like looking at companies such as Grain Surfboards.
They’re a tiny company with, I believe, five or six employees. They’re based in the state of Maine, which has cold water and isn’t known as a surfing destination.
They make wooden surfboards. Wooden surfboards are interesting because they’re environmentally sustainable, they’re beautiful and they have to be made by hand rather than by machine.
That interested me. I thought it was really cool.
When I visited their website because I was considering buying a board, I discovered that they ran a board-building class. You could spend four days there and build your own surfboard.
I signed up and did it. In fact, I’ve done it twice.
What was so cool was that I physically went to their factory and spent four days with them.
We shared stories about surfing. We shared a beer at the end of the day. We learned about one another’s families and where we grew up. We created a genuine bond and human connection.
I also found it interesting that they were giving away their secrets. They have a proprietary technique for making their surfboards, but they invited me in and taught me exactly how they make them.
I asked them about that.
They said it was more important to build fans and get people onto their surfboards than it was to worry about somebody stealing one of their ideas.
Most businesses don’t think that way.
Most businesses think, “I don’t want people coming into our office for four days. I don’t want to share the secrets of my business.”
What we’ve learned about developing fans is that the more human relationships you create, the better.
Peter Boolkah [09:39]
That’s definitely a different way of thinking.
As you say, many small businesses—and most businesses generally—don’t think that way.
What was customer retention and loyalty like with that company?
David Meerman Scott [09:50]
It was enormous.
People don’t often buy more than one surfboard from them, but they share the experience with their friends.
I’ve actually bought two, and I might buy a third, so I’m different!
People put a Grain Surfboards sticker on their car. They wear Grain Surfboards T-shirts. They love Grain Surfboards and become part of it.
That is another thing we learned.
If you can find ways for your employees to feel like part-owners in your business—even though they aren’t actually part-owners—that is gold.
That is one thing Grain Surfboards does.
Peter Boolkah [10:39]
That is probably a significant contributor to staff retention.
David Meerman Scott [10:44]
Yes, that’s exactly right.
There’s another concept that I find interesting. I call it “give more than you have to.”
Many organisations use their websites and social media to push content out.
Peter Boolkah
I’m guilty of that.
David Meerman Scott
So am I. I push content out all the time.
But when there is a significant piece of online content, such as a white paper or ebook, most companies feel that they have to put a gate in front of it. They insist that people provide an email address before downloading it.
They may be giving content away, but they’re establishing an adversarial relationship with their customers before they provide that content.
Peter Boolkah
Guilty.
David Meerman Scott
Think about it differently.
We humans are hardwired to appreciate a gift when there is absolutely no expectation of anything in return.
If somebody gives you something and expects something in return, it is off-putting. It doesn’t make you feel good.
But if somebody genuinely gives you something as a gift and says, “This is for you,” that feels great.
We feel good about the person or company that gave it to us.
One different approach is to make the white paper completely free. You are then likely to see between ten and fifty times more downloads.
Peter Boolkah [12:25]
The problem and challenge is that people will say, “But I don’t know who is downloading it.”
David Meerman Scott [12:29]
Who cares?
If you are growing fans of your business by giving something away for free, those people will be eager to do business with you.
You don’t have to force or coerce them into becoming clients by calling every third day and asking, “When are you going to buy something from me?”
That is the model created when you only give away a white paper in exchange for an email address.
You can require an email address for something after you’ve already given something away for free.
Give something away first. Then you can say, “If you want to learn more, contact us here.”
Alternatively: “Thank you for downloading our white paper. We hope you enjoyed it. If you would like to attend our free webinar, register here.”
They can provide an email address at that stage.
Peter Boolkah [13:21]
I think that’s the type of material you’re covering in the book you’ve just released.
David Meerman Scott [13:25]
Yes. In Fanocracy, there are a number of different prescriptions concerning how to grow fans—how to get people who love what you’re doing and want to share it.
Peter Boolkah [13:35]
That represents a significant shift because the currency of social media has effectively been likes and views without necessarily building the underlying relationship.
David Meerman Scott [13:48]
That is the part that has been missing.
There are several interesting ways to approach the concept of developing fans.
Another thing we examined—which I found amazing—is that many organisations try to control how people relate to their businesses and products.
They put trademarks against things and say, “You can only talk about us in this particular way.”
For example, Adobe says you cannot use “Photoshopped” as a verb. You’re supposed to say that an image was manipulated using Adobe Photoshop software.
If you try to control how people use and talk about your products and services, you don’t allow them to feel like part-owners.
Peter Boolkah
That’s restrictive.
David Meerman Scott
It is restrictive, but many companies do it.
It is better to recognise that once you put your product or service into the world, it no longer belongs entirely to you. It belongs to your fans.
Put it out there and let your fans take over. Don’t put it out there and then try to control it.
Peter Boolkah [15:21]
People will obviously want to look at the book, and you have resources available. Where do they need to go?
David Meerman Scott [15:27]
They can visit Fanocracy.com, which is a great place, or follow me on social media. I’m @DMScott: D-M-S-C-O-T-T.
It is a very interesting and much more human approach to business.
It is a way to create a following of people who will share how much they love you, re-engage with your company and return again and again.
Ultimately, that is a stronger way to conduct business than the purely transactional approach many organisations take.
Peter Boolkah [16:13]
I completely agree.
I remember being a bit slow when you coined the phrase “newsjacking.” I remember it vividly, and the term subsequently entered the Oxford English Dictionary.
David Meerman Scott
It did.
Peter Boolkah
You coined the phrase newsjacking, and it was such a powerful concept.
When I actually use newsjacking, it works brilliantly.
David Meerman Scott [16:31]
It’s fantastic.
Peter Boolkah [16:32]
But I don’t do it nearly often enough.
David Meerman Scott [16:34]
I try to do it myself, but I should also do it more frequently.
Newsjacking is based on understanding the news cycle.
Every news story breaks in approximately the same way, following a bell-shaped curve. You publish a piece of content at the moment when members of the media and potential customers are looking for it.
It is the art and science of injecting your ideas into a breaking news story, and it is a fabulous way to get noticed.
Peter Boolkah [16:59]
It is.
Fanocracy is at the beginning of that journey now.
For the people listening, all I can say is that you need to get the book. Don’t do what I did and arrive late to the party.
Get ahead of the curve because many people will be slow to adopt this.
You want to be among the people building fans at the beginning of the cycle, not among those building them at the end.
David Meerman Scott [17:25]
I think that’s right.
It is an amazing way to grow a business. Let the fans take over. Let the fans do the work for you.
Peter Boolkah [17:35]
David, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
David Meerman Scott [17:38]
My pleasure, Peter. Thank you for having me.
Peter Boolkah [17:40]
If anything we’ve discussed today resonates with you and you want more information, head over to Boolkah.com and get in touch.
Remember: failing to learn is learning to fail.
