PETER BOOLKAH — 00:11
Hi, Peter Boolkah here, and welcome to today’s edition of The Transition Guy.
Joining me today in the studio is Karen Laos, who is a communication and confidence expert with over 20 years’ experience in the field. Welcome, Karen.
KAREN LAOS — 00:25
Thank you so much, Peter.
PETER BOOLKAH — 00:27
Wow, 20 years. I mean, that’s quite a career.
KAREN LAOS — 00:31
Yes. I’ve had a great time. I’ve had a lot of amazing opportunities as well.
PETER BOOLKAH — 00:37
What actually makes you an expert in this field?
KAREN LAOS — 00:41
Well, I’ve been doing it. What do they say — 10,000-plus hours? I probably have many more than that at this point because, if I’m honest, we’re going on 30 years at this point in time.
But I’d say that at the heart of my expertise is my passion, because I’ve always been fascinated with how people communicate, the way they say things and what they’re actually saying.
The hard-and-fast experience really comes from being in the trenches, making mistakes, getting good training, having amazing mentors, being on stages and being in one-to-one coaching situations. You realise, “Okay, that’s not something to do. Note for next time.” Or, “Okay, that is definitely a best practice. I’m going to keep doing that.”
PETER BOOLKAH — 01:34
You know what? This fascinates me because this is probably one of the biggest universal problems across the world. Most screw-ups, whether in business, government, personal life or interpersonal relationships, are down to communication, quite frankly.
It’s one of the things they just don’t teach you at school, is it? They’ll teach you algebra and all these things you’re probably never going to use unless you’re a quantum physicist. Yet communication is the thing that will either help you succeed or contribute to your failure.
KAREN LAOS — 02:14
Exactly. I agree 100 per cent.
It’s amazing how simple communication is and yet how we, as human beings, tend to overcomplicate it when we involve our emotions or the things that keep many of us up at night.
If you look at business consulting books or research, most of the time it has little to do with systems and processes. It’s much more about personalities.
That’s where I find most people come to me who are interested in my services as a business consultant. They say, “How am I going to deal with this person? How do I handle this situation? I’ve got this conflict. What do I do?”
PETER BOOLKAH — 02:59
What’s quite interesting is that this probably ties into other areas you cover.
We had the unique event of COVID and lockdown. I think the whole lockdown situation, with people being forced to isolate, had a huge impact on their ability to communicate. I’m not sure whether you’ve seen that as well.
KAREN LAOS — 03:26
Yes. I think one of the best things that came out of it was the openness of the world through Zoom, virtual communication and all of that.
What’s fascinating from my own personal experience is that I had been teaching people virtual communication tips for probably a good 10 years before COVID. When COVID happened, I was going, “Oh my gosh, okay.”
[Unclear passage in the source transcript.]
And, you know, he’s less than 20 metres away from me doing his meetings. I feel that also caused the extra and added stress that people wouldn’t normally have had.
PETER BOOLKAH — 04:37
Do you think being physically away from people has altered our ability to deal with things, situations and people?
KAREN LAOS — 04:49
I do.
I think we’ve become so used to the two-dimensional nature of virtual communication. It’s hard for a lot of people. There’s a lot of social anxiety and questions such as, “How do I even show up with this person?”
You’re so used to seeing them virtually. I’m sure that, like you, I’ve talked to many people who had known somebody for a year or two but had never met them in person.
Then they meet at a conference. That was similar to my experience. I met people at a conference whom I had known for a couple of years and thought, “I’ve never met you, but it feels like I have. We’ve been talking all the time.”
It’s a whole other dynamic.
PETER BOOLKAH — 05:32
I don’t know whether you’re seeing it where you are, but employers now seem to want people back in the workplace.
There also seems to be huge reluctance among many people to make that shift. They’ve become comfortable with remote working.
I can’t put my finger on whether it’s convenience because they’ve become accustomed to a new way of living, or whether the anxiety of travelling and being in a room with people again is playing its part.
KAREN LAOS — 06:15
I think it’s different for everybody.
I’m a huge extrovert, so being in person doesn’t bring up any anxiety for me compared with situations I might have been in before COVID. I feel that’s a wonderful thing, but it is also very comfortable at home.
When I think about my hourly rate for what I used to do in person, and then being paid the same amount over the last few years to work virtually, it’s hard to imagine getting into a car and driving 45 minutes to a client site for the same rate.
I’m being completely honest: for me, it really is about convenience and money. What do you think?
PETER BOOLKAH — 07:11
It’s a difficult one.
KAREN LAOS — 07:12
Yes.
PETER BOOLKAH — 07:13
I think a lot of people have built a wall around themselves — a wall of convenience.
To go into the office, perhaps many people don’t have the confidence to go back out again. They may not go out as much as they used to.
KAREN LAOS — 07:30
Yes.
PETER BOOLKAH — 07:31
I think it’s becoming a very interesting economic workforce.
You probably experienced the same thing we did. When COVID arrived, it was as though a million people had been beamed off the planet. There were all these vacancies that nobody could fill. That was a new phenomenon.
Secondly, we’ve had high inflation, especially across Europe and the UK, which has placed economic hardship on a lot of people.
Many people thought, “I’ve got my life mapped out. This is where I’m going to be financially.” The reality is that they’re having to return to the workforce because they can’t afford to live on the provisions they made for retirement, especially when they’re paying an insane amount for heating bills.
KAREN LAOS — 08:25
Yes.
PETER BOOLKAH — 08:26
With all that in mind, one of the things people aren’t talking about, which is going to present itself very quickly, is that by the summer of 2023 we’ll probably have five significant generations in the workforce for the first time in our history.
KAREN LAOS — 08:48
It’s incredible.
PETER BOOLKAH — 08:52
When you look at those five generations, there could be anything from 50 to 70 years between the youngest person entering the workforce and the eldest person currently in it.
That will make it challenging for any leader or manager who has to communicate across five generations.
Growing up, I can tell you that people from the generations above me would frequently say that my generation was lazy, pointless or useless. I hear the same things said about the generations below us.
The reality is that every generation has its strengths. There will be great people in each generation. Of course, there will also be lazy people, but that will always be the case.
Managers now surely have to be highly skilled to relate to each of those generations. What advice would you give?
KAREN LAOS — 10:05
The number-one thing I would say is: know your audience.
The easiest way to know your audience is to ask questions. That is also a skill many people don’t have.
It isn’t difficult to ask a question. What I find most challenging for people is pausing long enough to listen to what the other person is saying. I can remember—
PETER BOOLKAH — 10:33
Sorry, you go. Please.
KAREN LAOS — 10:35
Go ahead.
PETER BOOLKAH — 10:37
I was going to ask whether that is the result of how people have been conditioned.
You’ve had a lot of corporate experience, and I also have a corporate background. When I was in the corporate world, it wasn’t about listening. It was about telling.
We never led through questions. We always managed through statements.
If you think about parenting, I believe it begins there. When I look back, I was rarely asked a question. Parenting was always conducted through statements.
KAREN LAOS — 11:15
Yes, my experience was the same.
It’s important to consider that alongside the greater awareness we now have of emotional intelligence.
Are we aware of how we’re coming across? Are we aware of the patterns that have created who we are now and the choices we’ve made?
Most of us don’t take much time to reflect on those things, but we are products of our upbringing and experiences.
A lot of us have been trained to do what our boss tells us. Over the last 10 or 20 years, particularly the last 10, there has been much more focus on asking questions, fulfilment at work and all these wonderful things.
This takes us back to the different generations. Some people on the more experienced side aren’t accustomed to that. They think, “Let’s just get our work done. Why are we sitting here talking about all these things? Why are we bringing this into the workplace? Let’s just get the job done.”
PETER BOOLKAH — 12:33
That’s interesting because that was very much the way the Baby Boomers, certainly Gen X and perhaps some of the Millennial workforce operated. It was industrial-age thinking.
You’ll have a significant proportion of the workforce with that industrial-age mentality. As Michael Bungay Stanier would say, it’s about the carrot and stick: give somebody a carrot and sometimes beat them with the carrot as well.
That is very different from the knowledge-worker age. There’s a huge conflict there.
I started my professional career in the 1980s. To be honest, what people got away with in the 1980s and 1990s wouldn’t be accepted now. But there are many people who haven’t shifted from that mindset.
That brings us back to communication, doesn’t it?
KAREN LAOS — 13:42
It really does.
I was talking tonight to a friend who lives in New York. I won’t go into too much detail because it would become too personal, but she said everything is so sensitive now.
She understands the importance of that, but she recently got together with some former colleagues she hadn’t seen for years.
She said, “When we get together, it’s uncensored and unfiltered. We say whatever is on our minds. We’re not worried about offending somebody or saying the wrong thing. It is so freeing.”
Her bringing that up reminded both of us that we now have to be so careful that it can feel as though we’re censoring ourselves with every word.
PETER BOOLKAH — 14:32
Here’s a question for you. Do we have to be so careful about what we say, or is it about the context in which we say it?
KAREN LAOS — 14:43
That’s a very good distinction.
PETER BOOLKAH — 14:46
I’ll give you my reasoning.
KAREN LAOS — 14:50
Yes.
PETER BOOLKAH — 14:51
I curse a lot and probably use a great deal of colourful language. People say I’m the only person they know who can get away with saying what I say.
But I don’t say it with malice.
KAREN LAOS — 15:09
Yes.
PETER BOOLKAH — 15:10
I say it with a context in mind to create a shift in a person.
A lot of people communicate out of frustration or speak without context, which can create a very unsafe environment.
I wonder whether it’s about how we speak and how we bring something to the forefront, rather than simply whether we have to censor ourselves.
KAREN LAOS — 15:45
I think that’s a very good distinction.
When I think about my friend’s example, there’s a context when she’s with her former colleagues.
It goes back to knowing your audience. Managers listening to this need to think about being equitable while also recognising that people may need to be managed differently.
Stylistically, somebody might respond differently from somebody else. That can relate to the different generations, but we must also be careful about what we expect based on a perception of a particular generation or personality trait.
I was speaking to somebody yesterday who said, “People from the younger generation are always on their phones.”
I said that I’ve had plenty of conversations with people in their fifties and sixties who are also looking down at their phones.
A lot of behaviours cross generations and genders. It’s useful to be aware of different patterns and themes, but we must remember that people from different generations can behave in the same way.
PETER BOOLKAH — 17:32
That’s a very good point.
Whether we’re dealing with entrepreneurs who own private businesses or people working in large corporations, whether a business scales or fails will depend greatly on its management and leadership teams and their ability to get the best from the workforce.
Where should leaders start if they want to master their communication? Communication is now more important than ever.
KAREN LAOS — 18:20
One of the biggest things is to ask for feedback. Most people don’t do it or aren’t comfortable doing it.
We have to be intentional about how we come across, the words we use and the way we say them.
Am I coming across as trustworthy, credible and likeable? How is that affecting the other person’s experience?
I would start by asking for feedback and being specific.
If I asked, “Peter, do you have any feedback for me?” that’s a closed question. You might simply say no. It’s also too vague.
Instead, I could say, “Peter, I’d love to get your feedback. What feedback do you have for me about the podcast interview we had?”
I might make it even more specific: “What feedback do you have for me about how I came across? Did I use any distracting words that got in the way?”
People sometimes ask for feedback, but they don’t ask for feedback that will be genuinely useful to them. Most of us don’t want to ask for that.
PETER BOOLKAH — 20:00
Marshall Goldsmith has a very good way of counteracting that.
In Triggers, he talks about feedforward, doesn’t he?
KAREN LAOS — 20:09
Yes. Remind me, because I certainly know his work.
PETER BOOLKAH — 20:14
Feedforward, as opposed to historical feedback, was his approach.
The question becomes, “How do we move forward?” His whole feedforward idea is important.
The other interesting thing about communication is that there’s a very thin line between being confident and being arrogant. How do you deal with that?
KAREN LAOS — 20:37
I like to call it humble confidence.
We’re humble enough to know that we aren’t the best thing on the planet, but confident enough to own our strengths, gifts and talents.
That’s the balance we need to strike.
We should always remember where we came from and the mistakes we’ve made so that we remain humble. But we should also recognise our strengths.
I’m not afraid to say that I’m good at certain things, but I’m also very clear about what I’m not good at.
That partly comes with age and being able to recognise that you have both strengths and weaknesses. Owning that is a huge strength of character.
PETER BOOLKAH — 21:30
If that comes with age, that’s great.
The average age within the UK workforce is currently around 41 or 42. That means many younger people are going to move into leadership and management positions.
How do we instil humility in those people so they can communicate humbly and make the people they lead want to follow them?
KAREN LAOS — 22:02
This relates to your earlier question about feedback and where to start.
A big part of what I do with people — and something anybody can do alone, with a coach or with a friend — is to record yourself and see how you come across through both audio and video.
There’s nothing more humbling than watching yourself on video and seeing your blind spots or simply observing how you come across.
The other thing is to remain curious and keep asking questions. I’ll continue returning to that point.
Are you asking questions, and are you pausing long enough to listen to the answers?
You can’t simply tell somebody to be humble. You can coach them, but if they don’t want to improve, grow or become aware of how they come across, it will be difficult to change them.
You can invite them to consider the benefits.
If you create a culture where people feel good, fulfilled and able to contribute, you will ultimately have the best workforce possible because people feel a sense of agency.
PETER BOOLKAH — 23:37
Perhaps you’ve just hit the nail on the head.
We need to become better at having our people coached because they’re not necessarily going to improve by themselves.
Training is brilliant, and many people place considerable emphasis on it: “Let’s give you the knowledge.”
That knowledge is important, but coaching, whether at executive or management level, provides the context and joins everything together.
KAREN LAOS — 24:16
Yes, I agree.
PETER BOOLKAH — 24:18
Returning to your point about curiosity, I think that’s also critical when dealing with a multigenerational workforce.
One book that brought curiosity to my attention was The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier. I don’t know whether you’ve read it.
KAREN LAOS — 24:38
I haven’t.
PETER BOOLKAH — 24:39
It’s one of my favourite go-to books.
For anybody I work with who is in a leadership or management position, it’s required reading. It’s very powerful.
We’re now in a question-driven economy. We have to become good at asking questions.
KAREN LAOS — 24:59
Yes.
Before we started recording, I mentioned a discovery call that went very badly when I was on the receiving end.
I’m often struck by how many people don’t bother to ask at the beginning of a call, “What would you most like to get out of this call?”
We make assumptions and start jumping in.
As entrepreneurs, we all want to prove ourselves, but our tendency is sometimes to dump information on people: “Here’s what we do. Here’s who we are.”
Instead, we should ask, “What problem would you like me to solve?” or, “What can we explore today?”
I’m also struck by how many people don’t know how to answer that question when I ask it. It’s my go-to question before any call.
They might begin talking randomly about several things without answering the question.
It’s fine to continue listening, but sometimes I stop them and say, “I really want to help you on this call, but I’m still not sure what you want.”
PETER BOOLKAH — 26:13
That’s a very good point.
If that’s how somebody behaves during a call with you, how else is it playing out in their life? How else is it showing up in their organisation?
KAREN LAOS — 26:25
Exactly.
I was watching a short video on a business owner’s website today. It immediately launched into, “Here’s what we do. Here’s what we can offer. Here’s what you get.”
It was, “We, we, we, we,” rather than starting with the problem the prospective customer might have.
PETER BOOLKAH — 26:51
That brings another great thought leader to mind: Donald Miller.
KAREN LAOS — 26:58
Yes. I was on his podcast last year.
PETER BOOLKAH — 27:03
His work discusses being the guide on the side. Believe it or not, that is also the leader’s job.
Whether you’re in a leadership or management position, your job is to be the guide on the side.
It isn’t about how great you can be. You reached the position by being great. It’s now about how great you can make other people.
That is where communication comes into it: how great can you make other people?
KAREN LAOS — 27:30
It really does.
Another thing leaders should do is recognise people in the way they would like to be recognised.
One of the biggest mistakes I made early in my leadership career was publicly recognising somebody who didn’t appreciate it.
We were at a whole-company meeting. He had done a very good job facilitating with me, and I was the head of all the facilitators.
During the meeting, I said, “We’ll call him Mike. Mike, you did such a great job when we were working together last week. Why don’t you come up, teach this module and show everybody how amazing you are?”
He pulled me aside afterwards and said, “I have never been so embarrassed in my life.”
I said, “What?”
It was such a good reminder that you have to ask and find out.
It’s also an example of intention versus impact. My intention was to make him feel good and celebrate him in front of other people, but the impact was very different.
I’m glad we could talk about it and that he said something.
PETER BOOLKAH — 28:52
Sometimes we do things that appear to be for other people but are actually intended to make ourselves feel better.
They don’t necessarily have the impact or desired outcome we imagined. That’s a very good point.
If people want to connect with you, you have a lot to offer. This conversation could probably continue for another two or three hours, although I’m not sure the entrepreneurs listening have the attention span for that.
How should people connect with you?
KAREN LAOS — 29:27
My website is the best place: KarenLaos.com. That’s K-A-R-E-N-L-A-O-S dot com.
PETER BOOLKAH — 29:35
I’ll make sure that’s in the show notes. That’s very simple.
Thank you very much, Karen, for being an awesome guest.
KAREN LAOS — 29:42
You’re so welcome.
I just thought of something as we wrap up. If anybody is interested in something very specific, there’s a free resource on my website called Nine Words to Avoid and What to Say Instead.
That’s something you can download as a takeaway.
PETER BOOLKAH — 30:00
Awesome. I love free takeaways because they add so much value.
Talking about takeaways, if you enjoyed today’s episode, please make sure you like it and subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes.
Please share it with other people who could benefit from the content Karen shared today.
If you have any questions or want to explore any of this in more detail, head over to Boolkah.com and get in touch.
Karen, thank you very much for being a great guest. It’s been a pleasure having you.
KAREN LAOS — 30:37
Thank you, Peter.
PETER BOOLKAH — 30:39
Remember, everyone: failing to learn is learning to fail.
Thank you.
