Episode 4: Gender Double Standards

Ruth Stearns Mandel and David Mandel discuss gender double standards and how they impact the work with families.  David shares some of his personal experience as male becoming engaged with the issue of male violence against women, and explores  how the understanding of men's behaviors can help end victim blaming.  The conversation also considers how marginalized men have been denied their importance as fathers.  

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Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Transcript

Speaker 1: [00:00:01] OK, we're back, we're back. This is partnered with a survivor episode four, and we're going to be talking about gender double standards.  [00:00:09][7.9]

Speaker 2: [00:00:10] Yes, we have a dog between us.  [00:00:12][2.1]

Speaker 1: [00:00:13] A massive dog. We're back from Arizona and we're home and in Connecticut and the surfer first podcasts being recorded at home.  [00:00:22][9.0]

Speaker 2: [00:00:22] So we're yes, after getting the children off to school and and feeding the dog, it's right between the starting work. So it's a little bit of a different vibe. But that's right. We decided that we were going to talk about gender double standards. We had polled people and asked them if they had topics that they wanted to hear in particular. And we did get some recommendations back and we definitely will be doing some of those. And, you know, we decided that on our first, you know, real full day back, we were going to tackle the topic of gender double standards at 7:30 in the morning.  [00:00:59][37.3]

Speaker 1: [00:01:00] Right. So here we are. And we decided Ruth decided actually that it would be me kicking this one off. That's right. And you know, it's it's a it's a very important topic in our in our work and it's in so many ways it's it's central to the the mission I have and the way I think about this. And and for me, you know, my history around working in this area really starts with my own self reflections around being a man in North America, you know, in a in a particular circumstance, in a situation and, you know, got educated. I grew up in New York City at a time that was very dangerous and and 5000 murders a year, which I think is hard for some people to imagine. And New York City is a much safer place now. But growing up in the city, when I left to go to New England to go to college, I thought I was. I was safe. I was being let out of prison and there was no crime. That was really my 18 year old vision of of New England and was really impacted by the fact that the women I knew were not feeling safe and they were were feeling unsafe from fears around male violence and sexual assault, particularly was what they would talk about. And so for me, that really struck home. And to this day, I can't explain why you know why that really got to me because it's not an education I had prior to that. It was really something that kind of opened up when I went to university. And and for me that that foundation of the work really comes from this, this reflection upon myself as a man of masculinity. And you know what it means to be powerful, get equal partners with women and really deconstruct colonization and other forms of oppression. And so looking at gender double standards is is is central has been central to me my entire adult life.  [00:03:19][138.7]

Speaker 2: [00:03:20] So it's kind of funny because I realized that in this particular podcast, it's probably going to be you. That's doing a lot of the talking, and I want to explain why. OK. OK. Because because I really have noted that men have to address men about this issue. And I really love Luke and Ryan Hart in the U.K. for the work that they've done around violence and male misogyny and and gender double standards around behavioral aspects of men in relationship. And so as a as a survivor and as a woman, I feel like my experience. I can't speak for the experience of other survivors, but my experience has been that speaking up and saying the imbalances in the standards between men and women and how they've harmed me and how they've played out in society and the more violent aspects goes really on deaf ears. There's so many women in the world that are impacted by this issue. And when we speak about it, we're often termed as being angry at men. It's often just background noise because women have been saying it so much. And so I'm actually going to kind of put David on the spot this whole podcast and ask him questions about gender double standards, because I think that it's really, really important for men to be involved. In the framing of this issue, in the reflection of this issue, not so much the framing, I mean, understanding how it impacts women from women's perspective is where you began. You at least had your little 18 year old David Self had the awareness that that valuing other people's experience of the world was an important way to understand how your maleness was impacting them, which is much farther than a lot of people get.  [00:05:30][130.2]

Speaker 1: [00:05:30] And I don't know where you know, where all that comes from, and it's still a mystery. And I, you know, I grew up in a household and you know, it's this is coming from my, you know, my experience. And I always want to be clear that when we talk about masculinity and men, there's there's not one masculinity and there's not one experience of of being male at all, you know, because you have people who are trans, who are male, you have people who are coming from situations where they're experiencing colonization, different forms of oppression, you know, in the U.S. or North America, UK or Australia, New Zealand, all the places where people are listening, you know that that Maori men are going to a different experience in some ways than an Aboriginal man and European men, and that even within Europe, this can be a different experience in North America, for sure. Whether you're African-American or Asian-American or Native American, you know, just that there's that this is. I'm really speaking from my experience and growing up, you know, household. One of the things I can say for sure is that that I never heard my father utter a negative word about my mother or about women in general. Maybe more importantly. Hmm. And you know, whatever that meant, you know, I brought that with me and and have tried to really the best I can. And there's obvious limits, and I think there's a danger of being sort of too like to understanding because that means you stop listening. But I remember realizing and thinking about how, as I ran men's behavior change groups co facilitated with a woman there that while we were together in our mission and we were together in the curriculum material and we're together in many ways and our values as we lead together, that because we were sitting with males who had been arrested for being violent with their partners, their female partners, that that they were having that she was having is different women over the years, whereas having a different experience of being in that group than I was, you know, as being male and that that she was the the female facilitators were often being targeted in in ways that I wasn't. And and this is a particular version. We're going to come around to gender double standards. But I guess this is making me reflect around just the general question of gender and masculinity and my relationship to it as kind of a setup for the conversation about this.  [00:07:55][144.4]

Speaker 2: [00:07:55] But well, definitely the experience that women have in the world around their authority being questioned, their intentions, being questioned, you know, their ability to be professional, being questioned that I can see how particularly in that environment where you're doing men's behavior change and you're dealing with with perpetrators who are already violent, that it's going to be a much more difficult road, obviously to to to be a woman being professional in that environment. So, you know, women's experiences, is that what you saw in that dynamic is just super common? I mean, I was telling you the other day, I get abused on social media, on Twitter all the time, right? As a woman, and it's just at this point, it's just background noise for me, and I just delete and block and and do whatever I have to do. But you know, it is definitely women's experience of the world that that's just a baseline. So it's funny to me that men kind of have to wake up to it, right? Like, all of a sudden, you realize at 18 that this is happening. It's kind of it's it makes me laugh a little bit inside. I have to be honest with you because there I am, you know, a little 18 year old Rosie. I've been fearful of men my whole life, right? Because of their  [00:09:19][83.4]

Speaker 1: [00:09:19] behaviors. Yeah, I think it's you're right on point. And I think, you know, one of the things that I, I like to think about is that when we talk about issues around race and gender and you know that when we talk about race, you know, the formulation that works for me as somebody who's perceived or has privileges around being white, though being raised Jewish, you know, that's a whole more complicated question in some ways that that really raises a problem around the people with privilege. Yes. You know, it's it's around around the question about how whites are going to change or white people are going to change is what's necessary. And I think. Very similarly here that this is really a question about how men are going to change. It's not a woman problem. It's actually a man problem.  [00:10:09][50.0]

Speaker 2: [00:10:09] So how our men get a change, David, you know?  [00:10:11][1.9]

Speaker 1: [00:10:12] Well, that's you. Yeah, yeah. You're always looking to me and saying, you know, well, what are you going to do? And I think, I guess, to kind of bring it back to the to the the theme that we've laid out about gender double standards. You know, I think for me, it's become very important that we really look at and unpack and think about and change the way we practice. And again, the primary domain for this has been work with professionals and we're we're doing more work with with families and, you know, trying to get more material out for them safe and together institute that can be used by families to be better allies to survivors. And there's a couple of really bedrock pieces underlying the the approach, which is one is that it's really important to recognize that men's behaviors and actions are important to family functioning to child and family functioning as well, we say. And that may seem really kind of basic and almost stupid or obvious to say. But the truth is the way that that professionals operationalize families. And I think the way families think about families is that the way women act. Again, we're talking about a heterosexual couples and you know, we can we're happy to engage around, talk around same sex couples as well and put that in in that scenario. People are often looking at what's happening in the family unit, primarily as a reflection of the mother. The mother's behaviors, you know, are the kids clean or are they going to school? Are they is the house clean? Is are they fed? And you know, I think there's a kind of an understanding of men's role still, as at a very basic level as breadwinners.  [00:11:55][102.9]

Speaker 2: [00:11:56] The caveman role, the  [00:11:57][1.2]

Speaker 1: [00:11:57] caveman role that they went out and like, they went out and something to do. They club something and dragged it back to the cave and and threw  [00:12:03][6.1]

Speaker 2: [00:12:04] it on the floor and said, Here  [00:12:04][0.8]

Speaker 1: [00:12:05] the here where women cook at it. And you know, I think when we when we look at that lens, we used that kind of lens. We're doing a disservice to women and men because men are engaging in lots of behaviors that are really shaping the way family functions and that, you know, and we need to be able to see that. So when you ask me, like, how are we changing things?  [00:12:29][24.0]

Speaker 2: [00:12:29] So some of it. So I actually I actually want us to stop right there because and I, I, I I love the languaging of it that men's behavior choices matter to child and family functioning. Okay. That's lovely. And I'm going to go behind that language a little okay, because that's what I like to do. So one of the things that from that sort of cold professional perspective, which would be very well used by a psychologist or a social worker if you were to really drill down into this the piece, that's it's hard for me to quite understand why we haven't gotten this yet is that in all family colleges, the parental behaviors are modeling to children acceptable behaviors in the functioning of life. OK. Right? That's just a basic piece of family ecology. And what we're not saying when we say that men's behavior matters to child and family functioning is that the choices of parents matter in training and modeling to their children acceptable behaviors in the future for relationship, as well as for general societal interrelation. So last summer, we were walking across the crosswalk in town with our children, and we all had, you know, we all had, you know, little water implements on our head. We had walked down into the river and we had been swimming in the river and we're crossing the street or crossing the street in a crosswalk. And a man with two small children had to stop his car for two children, three children in the road and us. And he started screaming and cursing at us. And our son got it right away. Yeah. He said, Wow, that ad is giving those kids a really bad example, right? And we started talking about how that would impact them in the way that they perceived acceptable behaviors. Either one of them will say, Well, that was really embarrassing, and I'm never going to do it. Dad did or the other one be like, Yeah, right, I can behave this way.  [00:14:37][127.7]

Speaker 1: [00:14:37] Those things can have both.  [00:14:38][0.7]

Speaker 2: [00:14:38] Those things can happen. So so what we're not really talking about is that the social crisis, right, is actually that not not believing and not behaving as if male parenting behavior is so impactful to children that they will go and they will model that back, either in relationship in. Work or wherever they feel comfortable doing that and abuse, the abuse cycle continues, right? Because of that, that is the point that I always want to pin on behavior right there.  [00:15:10][32.1]

Speaker 1: [00:15:11] Not only is it the abuse cycle that that will continue as as as the kids grow up and being adults. And we know that girls are more likely to be victims growing up in a household where they're seeing and experiencing abuse, and boys are more likely to grow up to be perpetrators. And that doesn't mean they're doomed, by the way. That's always a mistake people make. They're just a greater risk, you know? But I do think that unpacking this to say that when we say it's the behaviors that matter and that men's parenting behaviors and choices matter to families and their choices matter to families, is where we're shaping the conversation away from a status conversation, right? I think a lot of the battles we see that happen are in custody and access and visitation. A lot of things that people take for granted is, is that this idea that that there's we look at men's behavior a lot of times are real families, whether they're entitled to they're the father, they have a right to see their kids. And there's not a very good operationalize view of sort of what's good parenting on the part of men. And while at the same time, we have a kind of very kind of particular fine tooth comb. Yeah, we also women's parenting, right?  [00:16:24][72.8]

Speaker 2: [00:16:24] But we also fundamentally ignore in that view the normal human impact that abuse has on victims and survivors in the sense that if you were to just break it down to sort of kindergarten language, if you harm me over and over again and I'm your child or I'm your partner right, then fundamentally my right is to say I don't want to be around you. Yes. Now, court systems ignore that, particularly for children all the time, right? And and it it teaches children a lesson. It actually teaches children a lesson that they can be abused. They can be mistreated. Nobody's going to listen that it's the right of a parent to do so. All of those fall in line in a child's mind. When services adults, people in power do not respond appropriately to the abuse. And obviously, we want to protect the rights of parents to parent their children. We feel like no parent is perfect. We have to give room for people to learn and to grow. All of these things need to happen. But in reality, the way that things are happening now and I can speak from experience is that what's happening is that we are really sending a clear message to children who are in their intense, formative years. That abuse is acceptable, that it's a normal parenting interaction, that these are relationship, quote unquote air quote issues, and that really that their parent has a right to psychologically, physically or otherwise harm them.  [00:18:09][105.1]

Speaker 1: [00:18:10] And one of the things I I say to systems to to to people who are trying to pick up the safe and together model or trying to asking questions about whether, you know, why should we change our practice or and move from our faith to protect framework to a perpetrator pattern based approach? And I'll say, well, one of the things is when we go in as systems and blame survivors, moms who are victims for the perpetrator's behavior, we're teaching kids exactly what you're saying. You know that  [00:18:40][29.8]

Speaker 2: [00:18:40] that is so much worse because we're actually teaching them that the perpetrator is right. That's right. That he's correct  [00:18:46][5.9]

Speaker 1: [00:18:46] when there are no consequences. And that and that one of the takeaways is that that he's strong and she's weak, right? And again, as  [00:18:54][7.8]

Speaker 2: [00:18:55] that her normal reactions to abuse are emotional or out of control, so on and so forth, when really they're just normal trauma reactions to somebody harming you.  [00:19:03][8.8]

Speaker 1: [00:19:04] Right, right. And so so I think when we look at gender double standards around parenting is this, you know, when we say that men's behaviors and choices are important to families, we're trying to do a lot of a lot of things at once, which is really just honor the importance men have and families. And for me, one of the one of the when the important things about this is where we're actually also at the same time counteracting or trying to counteract years and decades and centuries in some cases of of marginalization of particularly poor man in the U.S., you know, we use the term men of color, refer to African-American men and Latino men and Native American men. And, you know, and whether it's indigenous people in Australia and New Zealand that that men who have been marginalized are often treated as. Unimportant to families, very disposable. And they, in fact, haven't been granted the same status as parents as as men from the dominant culture are so, so by squarely landing our assessment and our thinking about sort of parenting through a behavioral lens. You know, we're not only trying to unpack the gender double standards where there's low expectations for men as parents, but we're also trying to really say that that we can't throw away men at the same time. And it's that this is a very important balance to me because I think that that if we just only look at these behaviors through a through kind of a criminal lens. One is we're going to miss a whole bunch of things that perpetrators do that impact families that are not arrestable, right? Whether it's financial control, whether it's it's abandonment, whether it's interfering with with the functioning of the day to day household. You know, a lot of those things just will never cross the threshold of criminal behavior.  [00:21:01][117.0]

Speaker 2: [00:21:02] But they do have immense amounts, immense impact.  [00:21:04][1.8]

Speaker 1: [00:21:04] And this is sort of when I start talking about this, it's sort of it to me. It's it touches on so much.  [00:21:10][5.9]

Speaker 2: [00:21:10] That's important when you're not talking about full coercive control, which is illegal in the UK, right? You're speaking of more subtle behaviors, which are I'm  [00:21:19][9.3]

Speaker 1: [00:21:20] talking about all of it, really, because it really is is none of it fits into an exact box around criminal or non-criminal behavior. It's really we have to have the ability to move from what's being, what's criminalized, what, what, what has changing and the criminalization, of course, of control, which is wonderful that it's now being identified as criminal patterns of behavior in some places. But I'm really just saying looking through this kind of behavioral family functioning lens, we have to have this ability to really sort of say, What do we expect from men as parents? How do we come to the table with our expectations, particularly as professionals and and as again, so many layers to it? I always think about this, you know, so so by saying men's behaviors and choices are important to families, we're trying to create space to say yes, I don't care if he's got a criminal history, I don't care if he's incarcerated. I don't care if he's been absent for two years. We have to be asking questions and thinking about what's been the impact of his choices. Right. And and it also includes those men whose partners may be substance abusers and there's no domestic violence that maybe the kids are doing well because because he's actually very involved in taking care of the kids. And so there's the other side of this, which it gives us a rubric at the same time or framework at the same time to look and identify the good things men are doing as parents are often invisible as well. And this to me, the fact that it does both at the same time to me is is is really critical, right?  [00:22:48][88.2]

Speaker 2: [00:22:49] And and I and I think that it is as well, you know, I've I've always been a bit resistant to the the ideologies and movements which have painted men as as villains by nature of their biology and their testosterone and their sex. It's deeply offensive to me, and I think it is part of the patriarchy when that is the the springboard for discussions about men. You know, we have sons and we love them and we want them to be happy, healthy, good humans and we believe them to be so fundamentally. And so that view of of maleness is is is damaging very deeply to to men and two women and keeps the cycle of patriarchy and misogyny and abuse in play, really, because it gives it this fundamental permission to exist that you can't even argue against. If men are violent by nature of their testosterone, then then we just got to throw the baby out with the bathwater, basically. And I do. I do think that it addressing both things is is is quite brilliant. I I always look though in it landing in a place which is very concrete and very behavioral, right? Because that's where the change comes. So let's talk about that.  [00:24:17][87.9]

Speaker 1: [00:24:17] Well, the change, you know, I think the change comes in lots of ways and it comes in the questions we ask of women, mothers, even, you know, in terms of when we meet with them. And I always time people like in the context of domestic violence. You do a day of training with us or two days of training with us doesn't mean you're going to be prepared or feel ready to go out and engage domestic violence perpetrators, necessarily. So I often tell people start implementing this framework by when you meet with mothers on any case, on any, any kind of work you're doing is is to start asking her questions about her male partner role in the family. What does he do? Day to day to kind of keep the family going, and it we're not just asking questions about does he have a job? Because I think a lot of times the way this is operationalized in negative ways, people are just concerned is he drinking? Is he is he does he have mental health issues here? But does he have a job? C in jail? And and really what we want to do is say, OK, talk, talk me through sort of what your partner does to support you during the day to to make things a little bit easier to to sort of make sure the kids are on track to make sure that there's there's, you know, who go shopping and puts the groceries away and you know who puts the kids bed and and it doesn't mean that he's doing all that or that we have a preprogramed view of what that should look like. But then we ask questions. You know, if a kid's on medication, you know, it has mental health needs that we're asking mother, is your partner supportive of the recommendations from the therapist or the mental health professional? And I'll ask people in trainings and say, how many of you know, non domestic violence cases, you know, are kids in therapy or kids on medication? How a male caregiver who's in the family could be an uncle could be a could be a father, could be a stepdad, what his position is on that medication. And you'd be shocked. Or maybe you wouldn't be about how few people know what the male caregivers position is. And we generally believe that if parents are in alignment on something, the kids are going to be more successful. So if you have one parent who's saying therapies good, we need to take you to counseling and other parents saying no, that that kid's probably going to be more resistant or be conflicted. And in so operationalizing it is having a basic curiosity across the board in how men's behaviors and choices make families weaker or stronger. I mean, that to me is like sort of  [00:26:52][155.2]

Speaker 2: [00:26:53] it's very basic.  [00:26:53][0.6]

Speaker 1: [00:26:53] It's very basic. Have curiosity, have kind of asked questions, try to understand. We talked to kids, ask them questions and help you understand how they relate to their, their dad and how their dad relates to them. And and and the wonderful thing is, when you ask them this question and you're doing this across the board, you're going to learn amazingly wonderful, beautiful things. Hmm. And and and I think for some people, that's going to be a surprise. And unfortunately, I've run into people when I've shown them pictures or videos of men engaged in caring where their kids actually on the other side, I've seen them go, I don't I literally have somebody say no training once. Excuse me, I went to my same, and once I showed them videos of men being excited about getting the news, they're going to be a dad. For the first time, I had somebody literally say to me, I don't believe that's true. I don't think any men are like that.  [00:27:46][52.3]

Speaker 2: [00:27:46] So what? So what I'm going to what I'm going to say about that and this is off topic, OK?  [00:27:50][3.8]

Speaker 1: [00:27:50] But I think we have freedom to. I really,  [00:27:52][2.3]

Speaker 2: [00:27:53] really want to say it. And and it's super important. I think I think what I'm about to say is super for it, right? And that is is is that is that we bring our biases to our work. Right. We bring our trauma to our right. That's right. And so our biases and our trauma need to be looked at, particularly when we're dealing in a position of power over families. And and this is where, you know, you know, I read the news articles and see the outrage about judges who have said, oh, he didn't rape her because she didn't fight back. That judge brought his bias to that case. That's right. Nobody wants to believe that perhaps his actions or his trauma or his previous experiences in life have led him to that place. And he's been holding that bias against women against sexual assault this whole time. But the reality is, is that he did and this happens all the time, right? And so that bias and the trauma that's experienced in the field by having to deal with children who have been battered and abused by their parents or women who have been battered and abused by their partners is something that we actually do have to address for the safety of children in the safety of survivors and victims and for the well-being of of the family. So I just I really want to put a pin in that because I think that worker trauma right and worker bias right has a huge influence on the outcomes for children and families in systems. And that's a great example of it.  [00:29:30][96.6]

Speaker 1: [00:29:30] And I think, you know, part of what we're trying to do with this podcast and with the safety other work in general is create space and permission more permission for people to talk about these things because it's not a judgment on professionals that they have biases. Not at all, because we all come in with experiences and shaped by again sort of forces of racism and colonization and sexism and abuse and abuse and. It's really where the negligence in systems and in education processes, I think, is where we're not supported unpacking those and we're not being asked to look at them and expected to look at them in order to have a particular lens and and to do the work well with families. And I had a teacher who said to me, Look your your body, your mind is your instrument and you have a responsibility to to maintain it and to to kind of hone it, to do the things you wanted to do. And I think here's a case where where we really need to have structures in place where we're looking and asking people to really reflect on their bodies. And this is in social work values. And so this is an alien to people. Right? You know, the flip side of it is, you know, the gender double standards. You know, this example, you know, comes to mind is working with a child protection manager who is very victim blaming a woman who is very victim blaming. And and we get a lot of woman on woman victim blaming, which isn't a surprise. No, not at all. And and you know, this particular manager was we were acquaintances and we worked together for a while. And finally, I took her side after meeting and said, Look, that that attitude that you were shown in the in that in that meeting was was really harsh to the survivor survivors really blaming it didn't feel appropriate, and we went back and forth a little bit. And finally, she said, she's making all women look bad. Right? That's a that is a bias, a judgment, a blaming statement.  [00:31:34][123.6]

Speaker 2: [00:31:34] It's quite a lot of pressure to put on one person to  [00:31:37][2.2]

Speaker 1: [00:31:37] write and and but there was no sense, unfortunately, with this person that that there was really that she she had to be self aware that there was something going on inside of her that was being triggered. Right. And so we see the gender double standards being played out in lots of different ways. And I'm going to kind of tell two stories and then we can figure out a way to kind of wrap it up. You know, I want to keep this on the serious side today, but I think the the the costs are many around sort of having this low expectations for men as parents and I've heard from friends in the last few years, men who are very involved in raising their kids that they'd go along with their female partner to a pediatrician. And and more than once I've heard this story where they've been told to stand aside. So the pediatrician can talk to the mother because she's the one who is will know the most. And there's an automatic assumption on the part of the doctor, right, that the male was superfluous and wasn't a source of information and wasn't really engaged. And I think to my mind, well, we're asking people to kind of reflect on their their own attitudes and beliefs and say, where am I walking into a household and saying, I'm assuming that the person I ask if the kids are medically up to date is the mom. Mm hmm. And and therefore absolving the male of any responsibility to know to be engaged where I'm sending a message to the mother, she's the one who's got to fix it. So if he's controlling the kids access to medical care and we're asking if the kids are medically update, there's there's almost an accusation built into that. And so she feels like she's disclosing her her failure. I mean, this is this is a huge barrier right to women disclosing around abuse because they feel like they're not telling on their partner who's a bad parent,  [00:33:25][107.7]

Speaker 2: [00:33:25] they're telling themselves,  [00:33:26][0.7]

Speaker 1: [00:33:27] right, right?  [00:33:27][0.3]

Speaker 2: [00:33:28] So it's right now that the shame created by the victim blaming in the gender of double standards is it's quite intense. And I can say as a woman, I definitely experienced it. I want to operationalize this a little bit because I don't think we're going to solve gender double standards and people's biases and attitudes in 45 minutes. And so one of the things that I recognize that the model tries to do is put the bumpers on to try to protect survivors and victims from those biases, not just by discussing the language and changing the reporting language and the interviewing, you know, processes. But I want to mention actually, Manitoba cana- Canada child protection practices, and I'm about to interview one of the people that helped to implement this because I am super excited about it. And it it is. It is. And it is a functional piece, though, which keeps those gender double standards from really entering into the system at the at the inception of of a case. And I think it's brilliant. And that is, it says that they adopted a policy after studying and learning the Safe and together model and practicing it for years, where they ceased to open cases in the mother's name if she was not the violent perpetrator. Right? And that really protects her right because instead of all of that questioning going towards mom the protector. The person in this in this incidence, all of those questions now go towards the person who is battering, and that would be normally and statistically the father. Right? And that's brilliant opera opera. I can't say the word that's racial opera.  [00:35:14][106.4]

Speaker 1: [00:35:15] There you go. I don't think  [00:35:16][0.8]

Speaker 2: [00:35:17] it's early in the morning of being very cognizant that those double standards enter into the picture. That mom is often the focus, even though she is the survivor and the victim. And really shifting the focus over to the perpetrator. So it keeps those gender double standards from even entering into the system from the very beginning. And I think it's brilliant.  [00:35:39][21.9]

Speaker 1: [00:35:39] And with something we promoted for years, and we're so glad to see some of the systems pick this up. And you know, at the extreme of this, I never, ever told you this. I know systems that will open child protection cases in the name of the mother even after she's deceased. Oh yeah, and and it's exhausting. You know, he can't even die and he can't even die and not be held responsible. And and and it's and it's, you know, because that change has a ripple effect because now the statements that were made before is, you know, casually, well, mom, we've opened up a case, you know, case in your name as much as anybody could say, but you're not the alleged perpetrator. All she's going to hear is  [00:36:21][41.5]

Speaker 2: [00:36:22] the case in my name and  [00:36:22][0.9]

Speaker 1: [00:36:23] when files are looked at and then when these cases go to, you know, maybe go to a family court and go to divorce and custody, you know, the fact that there was a case opened on him is going to be is may have impact on the decision making around custody and access. And so. So this just this huge ripple effect in and you know, so when we operationalize in this way, this really it really changes the way we do business. So we're talking about be curious about men's behaviors and choices in families and ask questions and try to understand it. Look at the way we we think about formal conversations and decisions and how we name things and who we say is responsible and who  [00:37:04][41.3]

Speaker 2: [00:37:04] we ask questions,  [00:37:05][0.3]

Speaker 1: [00:37:05] who ask questions and and look at your own attitudes and beliefs. And I this story is a story of told over and over again and you know, which was watching a scenario unfold outside a coffee shop. And, you know, two women were were deeply engrossed in a conversation near me. And and this this man comes walking across the car park, the parking lot. And he's he's got an infant, his arms and he's walking with a toddler and it's Saturday morning. He's going to get a cup of coffee, it looks like. And and as he gets close to the front door, these two women drop out of there very intense, you know, engagement with each other to COO over him. And that's the word I use because they kind of showered him with all sorts of praise for her, for being a great dad  [00:37:51][45.9]

Speaker 2: [00:37:52] for walking across the street.  [00:37:53][0.9]

Speaker 1: [00:37:53] I always say this and you've heard me say this regularly, but to me, this is years later. It's, you know, all this guy who was doing was was managed to walk across the car park without dropping the baby and getting hit by a car. And he was dad of the year, right? And and and they assumed he was straight. They assumed he was the father.  [00:38:11][18.0]

Speaker 2: [00:38:11] They assumed he was a great man  [00:38:13][1.1]

Speaker 1: [00:38:13] and a great man. They they envision him having a wife who got to sleep in. They were projecting all these things onto him. And and this guy looked actually a little bit dazed and he's like, he kept going and they went back to their conversation. And when I share this story and training, you know, sometimes women will add to it and say, You know what, if that was a woman, I wouldn't have stopped talking to my friend. I wouldn't have even noticed, right? And second is, I would have really, I really would have. I might even been critical in my mind about how she's dressed, how she went out and everything else like that. And so, so to me, that's when we bring that into the visitation room or into the courtroom or into our our sessions. Ask yourself what's invisible? What am I not seeing? What am I assuming if a man is there for an appointment dressed  [00:39:01][48.4]

Speaker 2: [00:39:02] in a white shirt, white  [00:39:03][0.7]

Speaker 1: [00:39:03] T-shirt? Am I assuming he's a great, committed dad or am I? And is that? Is that an accurate reflection? Or am I seeing somebody who is really trying to make an impression on me and actually manipulate my perceptions and my biases to to be in his favor? So.  [00:39:17][13.8]

Speaker 2: [00:39:17] Well, I think we covered as much gender  [00:39:19][1.6]

Speaker 1: [00:39:20] stage, so much more covering  [00:39:21][1.0]

Speaker 2: [00:39:21] and however many minutes we just did, which would be 39 minutes. Oh, OK.  [00:39:26][4.5]

Speaker 1: [00:39:26] I thought we were going to try to give it a thought. But I was going, and I'm happy to be on the spot with this one. You know, that's all right. You know, and I have, you know, more to say, you know about, you know, my sense of responsibility for our, you know, our sons, our son learning consent and, you know, and not putting that expectation on on girls, right?  [00:39:50][23.5]

Speaker 2: [00:39:50] And just, you know, an emotionally aware human.  [00:39:52][1.7]

Speaker 1: [00:39:52] Yeah. So we're trying.  [00:39:53][0.9]

Speaker 2: [00:39:54] We are we are working at it. We're working  [00:39:55][1.4]

Speaker 1: [00:39:56] at it.  [00:39:56][0.2]

Speaker 2: [00:39:56] Both fronts actually on offer. So anyway, so we will we will be recording many more of these are, ah, you know, probably have a few recorded before we leave for New Zealand and Australia for a big whirlwind work trip. Right. But in the next couple of times we come out, you will be coming at you from New Zealand and then Australia.  [00:40:20][23.5]

Speaker 1: [00:40:20] And so please share if you like to share this podcast with others like it on whatever platform you're listening to on it.  [00:40:27][6.6]

Speaker 2: [00:40:28] If you have asks about topics, please let us know and we'll be happy to do them.  [00:40:32][4.4]

Speaker 1: [00:40:33] And feel free to check out our website safe and together Insta dot com for more information about the organization and the other work we do. So we look forward to being with you again soon in the future.  [00:40:44][11.4]

Speaker 2: [00:40:45] All right, signing off.  [00:40:46][0.8]

Speaker 1: [00:40:46] All right.  [00:40:46][0.0]

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