To coincide with Father’s Day in the UK and USA we are pleased to launch our ‘Choose to Change: Your Behavior, Your Choice’ Campaign Materials. This is a time of significant disruption in service delivery, and reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of mainstream responses to domestic violence. Lockdown, loss of employment and social distancing are creating new and unique pressures on families. More men than ever are calling hotlines, reaching out for help with their violence towards loved ones. The "Choose to Change" toolkit offers communities, families and practitioners a new suite of tools to help interrupt violence. In this podcast, Ruth interviews David about the "Choose to Change" toolkit, the thinking behind and its applications. David outlines how these resources can help make real differences in the safety and quality of life for women and children, and offer men new, practical options for choosing to change their behavior.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
To coincide with Father’s Day in the UK and USA we are pleased to launch our ‘Choose to Change: Your Behavior, Your Choice’ Campaign Materials. This is a time of significant disruption in service delivery, and reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of mainstream responses to domestic violence. Lockdown, loss of employment and social distancing are creating new and unique pressures on families. More men than ever are calling hotlines, reaching out for help with their violence towards loved ones. The "Choose to Change" toolkit offers communities, families and practitioners a new suite of tools to help interrupt violence. In this podcast, Ruth interviews David about the "Choose to Change" toolkit, the thinking behind and its applications. David outlines how these resources can help make real differences in the safety and quality of life for women and children, and offer men new, practical options for choosing to change their behavior.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
Speaker 1: [00:00:00] All right, we're back, we're back. [00:00:02][1.4]
Speaker 2: [00:00:02] It's been it's been a while, [00:00:03][1.0]
Speaker 1: [00:00:04] it's been a hot minute. Yes, we haven't done any podcasts for, I would say, about a month. [00:00:09][5.3]
Speaker 2: [00:00:10] Yes. So I think we've been doing other things. [00:00:12][1.7]
Speaker 1: [00:00:13] We have been in our our pandemic bubble, taking care of our family and and working and and trying to recalibrate all of our resources so that, you know, we can provide those to workers on the ground. That's right. Who are dealing with the pandemic and with practice in a very different way. [00:00:33][20.4]
Speaker 2: [00:00:34] Yes. So we're excited to be back here. And if you haven't listened before, I'm David Mendell, the executive director of the Save and Together Institute. [00:00:41][6.3]
Speaker 1: [00:00:41] And I'm Ruth Jones Mandel and I'm the eLearning manager and the communications manager, [00:00:45][4.1]
Speaker 2: [00:00:46] and you're listening to our 17th episode of partnered with Survivor Yeah podcast that we've been doing for about six months. That really started with Ruth's idea of reaching out to professionals and laypeople and kind of creating a space where we could discuss issues around coercive control practice, how to help survivors. And today [00:01:12][25.3]
Speaker 1: [00:01:13] we're going to be talking about something completely different, [00:01:15][2.6]
Speaker 2: [00:01:16] completely different. [00:01:16][0.4]
Speaker 1: [00:01:17] We're actually going to be talking about those who choose violence, particularly men who choose violence. And our new Choose to Change campaign. That's right. And so why don't you go ahead and explain what that Choose to Change campaign is? [00:01:33][15.5]
Speaker 2: [00:01:35] The Choose to Change campaign is really about speaking to men, and I'm going to try to speak to men, and we actually haven't really done this in the podcast that we've talked about abuse of venom. But this one, I hope, is is actually people are going to share with and we're going to have been listening to this around around this kind of work. And and the Tools to change campaign has a long history behind it. And what it is is really about putting a tool or a set of tools in the hands of families and friends and professionals that can help men build strong, safe networks. Interrupt their violence and help them interrupt their violence. And this is not for everybody, I'm just going to say that up front, this is not for everybody. This is really a tool that is designed to be used for men who are open to the idea of changing, who have some insight or willingness to look at their behavior in the harm it's doing to their loved ones, and that they're really trying to gather supports around them that are positive, constructive and safe. And the toolkit is very specific. It's guided, it's got very specific steps for people to focus. So it it attempts to accomplish what it set out to accomplish, which is the interruption of violence and to increase safety and the ability to maneuver for adult and child survivors. And for me, why this has a long history is is everything really in my professional career that I've worked towards has been about improving outcomes for survivors. And 30 years ago, I'm trying to think about what this is now at this point. Over 30 years ago, I started doing work with men around sexism or anti-rape work, anti homophobia work, and there's been a deep belief embedded in my work that one men need to take responsibility for four men, that men have the capacity to change and do better, and that we need to craft a set of interventions that really speaks to them in their in their environment and their cultural context. [00:03:38][123.1]
Speaker 1: [00:03:39] So how how are you seeing this? So let's talk a little bit about the bits of the Choose to Change campaign and how you think that it's going to achieve that. [00:03:51][12.4]
Speaker 2: [00:03:53] Well, the the the message is so first there's the overarching message, and it's really calibrated both to the specific time of the pandemic. But it's also a very generic message, which is it's OK to feel scared. It's OK to be worried, it's OK to have feelings. It's not OK to lash out and hurt other people because you're having feelings or because you're worried. And it really kind of starts with that idea that that when we're looking at coercive control, that the belief is really that people choose violence or using violence, coercive control to make other people do things that they want them to do to control their environment. And that underlying that, if there's any kind of emotional consistency across across a lot of people who are doing that is is this idea of I need to make you do something so I am not scared. I'm not worried. Things go my way. This gets combined with entitlement, thinking and feeling. That's right. And we're hoping that the pandemic and the talk about fear and anxiety and people's worry about their families actually creating a normalizing experience that creates us a window of opportunity here for us to reach men with. Yeah, of course you're anxious. We're all anxious. It's not healthy to lash out at your family because you're anxious. That's not an excuse. And that's not any different than we would a message I've been giving to men for years. When I ran a men's behavior change program, we actually talked to them about how they're managing their fear and control and feelings of powerlessness and not taking those out on other people and making other people responsible to fix those things. [00:05:34][101.2]
Speaker 1: [00:05:34] So how does how do you how do you achieve that in the Choose to Change campaign? Like what are the steps that people are taking in order to mitigate that response? And and how are they and how are they being held accountable in in that context? [00:05:50][15.7]
Speaker 2: [00:05:51] So what we're where we're walking people through is a four step process, and the four steps are really clearly laid out and really defined, and they're supporting material. And so imagine that you're a man who wants to to make some changes or you're a professional working with a man who wants to make some changes. So this this is material that we expect some men did trying around. But we also expect men's behavior change programs, social workers, pastors, different groups to really see this as a tool that they can implement with with people that they're connected to working with. And so the first step is really to say to somebody who do you know in your life, who's been in your life at any point that you felt wanted you to succeed or do well? So that's the starting point and is very broad. And and we're not talking about today or yesterday. We're talking about the past. We're talking about friends at work, high school mates. We're talking about anybody, relatives. And we asked them, You said, ask them, identify those people. And there's written material. Relate to all this, you know, identify, write this down. And then what did they do or say that made you believe they wanted you to succeed? That's step one. So we really want to throw a wide net out. And the second step is is really to have them identify who of. Those people would would be there for them and answer phone call. For instance, if you call and said, I'm worried about hurting somebody, I'm worried about hurting myself, I'm worried about doing something destructive to loved ones or to myself who had who would drop what they were doing. To answer that call. So then you narrow that that lens, but you make it now very specific to violence interruption. Mm-Hmm. And we include harm to self because we know that, you know, particularly now depressions, increasing anxieties, increasing subsidies is increasing. And while those things aren't causal to domestic violence, we have to have a holistic approach to these things. So, so then what happens is we walk that person through saying, OK, you've identified one to three for up to five people is the way it's at who you might be able to call. Now we're going to guide you through with scripts coaching how to reach out to them and then what to ask them for. And there's very specific messages if I call you for just to check in. Can you do this if I'm calling you with a worry because we give them three stages of things to identify, things are going OK. You know, which is of a check in contact. There's there's a worry contact and then there's a there really a danger contact and in the check in contact is really things are going OK. I just want to talk to somebody to just get some general support or worry. Contact to me is one of the most important steps in this, which is identifying that I'm shifting into a stance internally externally that makes it likely that I'm going to start acting abusively. To my partner, to my or to my kids or my loved ones. And with that, what we know is that survivors tell us this all the time. Something about him shifted the way he was acting, the way he was walking, the way he was talking, his mood, you know, and they go on alert. And so it's really trying to tune men into the fact you don't need to be calling somebody names to reach out for help if you're on. And if you moved in this sort of worry or alert mode, we want you to be aware enough to call somebody and say, Wait a second, I'm thinking bad thoughts. I'm starting to think negatively about her. I need to talk to you. Hmm. [00:09:33][221.5]
Speaker 1: [00:09:34] And then what is the training that is done with the support network in order for there to to assure that there's going to be a better outcome? What is the information that we bring to those people? [00:09:45][10.9]
Speaker 2: [00:09:45] Right. So we we give that the man who's, you know, engaging us choose to change process. We give him very explicit, explicit homework. So, you know, so if you're working with him, then it would be, you know. Here's the script this, would you say there's a worksheet this where you ask go and do this and here's a sheet to give to that network, respond the network person that explains the responsibility. And I want to be super clear that the instructions for everybody about this isn't about fixing relationships. These conversations, to be what they're designed to be, are focused on the person who's choosing violence and their behavior, only not on other people's behaviors. And that's very much laid out to the responders. So they're giving very explicit instructions about if you want to help your your, your person, the person is reaching out to you. This is your job. You have one job, which is to help this person act in a better way and interrupt their violence. And so this is really different than general support. This is really different. This is not about relationship counseling. This is not about fixing the relationship. This is all focused on that person. Choose the change and getting the support they need to make that change right. [00:11:03][77.9]
Speaker 1: [00:11:04] So it's happened. It's almost like a behavioral sponsor, so to speak, somebody that you reach out to when you're kind of on the edge and and you know that you're in danger of participating or enacting behaviors that have been abusive. That's right. That's right. So, you know, it's it's interesting from. A victim perspective, you know, that accountability often has meant in the past simply a criminal justice response when a lot of people think about accountability, they think about arrest, right? Think about, you know, that type of intervention. How how is this positioned in a way that's responding more to the reality on the ground about how perpetrators are in the system that they are in our families? How is it? How is it responsive as well to the needs of minorities who are overrepresented in the criminal justice system? What are you hoping for in that regard? [00:12:13][68.9]
Speaker 2: [00:12:14] You know, this is this is meant to stand with other interventions. You know, whether it's criminal justice intervention or men's behavior change programs. But really, you're right that the the response has been very has been very. Limited in some ways, and I think a lot of emphasis has been put on the criminal justice response to domestic violence priorities, and I want to say without equivocation that that kind of change is so important is when 40 years ago laws are changing. And in Connecticut and the United States of Connecticut, where we're based, led the country. And in some of those changes of laws, those laws don't just represent practical resources or the ability of law enforcement to intervene in what was considered a private matter before, but now is really rightly understood as a public safety matter. And I think those things are practical responses that need to stay in place and also represent a cultural mind shift that I think we need to really acknowledge the power importance of that. At the same time, I think we can hold these two thoughts in our heads at the same time that while that works for some people and it's important part of our community based response that it doesn't work for everybody, that lots of women don't feel safe calling the police for lots of reasons fear of deportation, fear of over overpolicing for their men. You know, the blog post that I put out in relationship. This links to articles where black women will say things like, I'm afraid if I call the police, he, my partner got killed. And while I want to be safe, that's not where I want to see happen. And and those fears have to be respected and understood and contextualized. And we have to understand that what we're seeing about in the U.S. and everywhere else protests around Black Lives matters around overpolicing that that all those things have profound implications for domestic violence survivors who are black and brown and indigenous because they're because they're saying, I don't get the same safety. The other people get because I'm afraid of calling the police. And and so this is this really messed with with existing resources, so it doesn't replace them. And it really is designed to start speaking to this gap, which is communities need resources. Communities need support. Survivors need other options. [00:14:43][148.7]
Speaker 1: [00:14:44] Yeah. And I think that that leads into my next question. As a as a survivor, I know how how well manipulated one can be by particularly a coercive controller who doesn't who doesn't necessarily believe that their behaviors are problems. So obviously, we're dealing with a selection of men who know that their behaviors are a problem and they want to change them, or a court has mandated that they are and behavior change program. So whether or not they resist the change or not, they're there, right? But I know that as a survivor, I would be a little bit afraid of of how I fit in to this. Right? If I'm going to be mandated to or if if my actions are going to be right or, you know, under a microscope because of this network. So how can you speak to maybe survivors anxiety? [00:15:46][61.6]
Speaker 2: [00:15:47] Sure. I mean, I think I think we we just have to be aware that there are lots of interventions can be misused. Right? You know, we know that people choose violence. Of course, control can use the criminal court system to manipulate their their their partner or to abuse them or to abuse them and say, I'm going to call the police on you or, you know, take your kids home or take your kids, or you don't make this criminal case, go and not give you any money. And so we know that any intervention, including when I ran men's behavior change programs, we would do partner contact very much to share a minimal information about what we were about and our philosophy and our goals around her safety and well-being. So he couldn't manipulated at least created a buffer against him, manipulating her and saying, My counselor says that you're crazy and least she would hear directly from me. That's not what we're thinking. That's not the goal. And so here in this kind of program, this kind of tool kit, we do have an information sheet for the survivor as well. Oh, great. And so we do have that and and it really speaks to very much sort of don't stop safety planning, don't assume that he's going to change even if he's engaging in this. This is not about controlling your behavior, changing your behavior. This is about him changing his right. And for me, having done men's behavior change work for years, I'm very savvy to the idea that that men might engage and promises to change, go to a program, act differently. But but very much it could be in this context that I used to call a secret deal. I'm going to do these things, but you have to do X, Y and Z. I can say that out loud. But but it's really just moving the control to another level. And really, it's just sort of saying, I'm going to be nice for a while, I'm going to do this. But it really means, for instance, you don't bring up the past at all. Right? And and we see a lot of that. And so really, it's the control taking another format. And of course, it doesn't feel safe or dependable for the survivor. And and I think survivors have to make their own decisions about safety, the relationship, what they need to do and to anybody who's listening to those who who, who wants to try this. This program, it's not about it's not about your partner changing, it's about you choosing to change and bringing people around you that are going to support you. And this comes out of a lot of experience in my work. And just to share a couple of examples, I did some work piloting a restorative justice model where we did try to do network interventions where we asked men to. The desire was asked men to reach out to people to get support. And so I know that men can reach out with guidance. They can get really useful feedback. It may not be. Things change overnight, but there's one man I worked with around this he found in his brother and sister would be there for him and support him. His neighbor said that your son to be, you know, scared of you. And he said he didn't know that. So so there's we're trying to trying to widen the conversation out and the tool kit to really move things along. And I also know that men I worked with who made some real changes. They did it in part because they had specific people in their lives who said, You can't do this and I'm here to help you to make sure you don't do it. Hmm. I have one particular man I work with in mine who just had a buddy who really physically even stepped in sometimes. And we're not recommending this is part of it, but really was. He was very much a very. Clear support for this one person that really helped him not change, and so I really believe that we have untapped resources in our communities and that lots of men will have a brother, a father, a sister because I need to be a male in your support network. You know who will say things like you shouldn't act the way that way? There's no there's no excuse to do them. We give them scripts, so we give those responders scripts as well. And and then includes the man asking the responder, the network person, if I'm not listening to you or I don't appear to be changing and and you think I'm dangerous, then I want you to call the police on me. So I want I want both the people who might be doing the Choose the Change tool kit from either side of somebody helping a man do it. The man himself is doing it. Understand. We're not backing off safety. We're not backing off responsibility. This is not a softening of accountability. This is actually just adding another another tool kit. [00:20:22][275.3]
Speaker 1: [00:20:22] Well, what I would want to say is, you know, just the reality of the situation. We often don't. Live in the reality of a situation, we live in the in the ideal world of policy and laws, which we think should have an impact in a specific way but often does has a different impact either. Go with either direction. But I really think about the fact that most children are still in contact with a father who has been a depressive who is either been accused of abuse or even convicted of battering and still has custody of children. And so to me, as a survivor, ignoring this reality increases danger. And so it's it's a really good thing for us to have a plan for how to help those people who are actively parenting children, but have had these behaviors in the past and who need that accountability. And they're not going to have that accountability via the court systems. And, you know, we don't necessarily even believe that all people who have engaged in abusive behavior need that form of criminal justice accountability. Right. And so I feel like it's a writing of reality a little bit from a survivor standpoint, right? It's it's very scary to me that we actually ignore these very pertinent realities on the ground that that most children do have a right to have contact with a parent who has engaged in abuse in the past, whether that's child abuse or that's battering of an adult partner. And so it really touches me as a person who survived child abuse that what I wanted for my parents, what I wanted was for them to do better. Right? And if somebody had been able to teach them how to do better and I could have had a relationship with my, my, my parents, my biological parents, I think that my life would obviously be different than this. But I mean, I have a wonderful life now. Don't get me wrong, David is my partners. But but at the same time, I really think that that from a survivor standpoint, I can really feel the rationale and the importance of doing this. [00:22:54][151.9]
Speaker 2: [00:22:56] I'm glad and I know that when we talk to survivors, when I work with survivors, they're often strategizing around. Not only how do they get safer, but how do they get a better outcome for their kids? And you know that most of them will say they want their children to have safe, healthy contact with that person, even if they don't want to be in a relationship with them. Right. And I have I have a belief that there's a large number of men, a significant amount, but this way who are on yahoos, who have chosen violence, who are using coercive control that are disturbed by their behavior. They may not have all the tools they need to make the changes. They've got people in their lives who actually can support them around this and that we need to give them the sort of catalyzing tools to help them do that just like their family and friends. Guide. Mm-Hmm. And so this is really important then. And so when we have this, this tool, we want to really help people engage in this in terms of their their families. And I do see this as as a nice parallel to the family and friends guide. [00:23:59][63.1]
Speaker 1: [00:24:00] So is there any any other bits of this that you feel are important to really bring to the forefront right now? Anything that you think is important to to include in this discussion, either facing men or facing professionals in regard to the use of this choose to change. [00:24:18][17.8]
Speaker 2: [00:24:18] I think you know the you know, I laid out three steps in the fourth step. I resist the use that is for the men to use it. And I think, you know, the I think the sweet spot for this is going to be is for professionals who have training in this area to do it and go into homes and actually work with men. Whether it's a men's behavior change person in this environment where groups aren't happening, we're seeing people saying, Oh, instead of our men's behavior change groups, we'd like to do some remote work using this tool. So we expect those folks to use it. Social workers, child protection workers where we're constantly trying to encourage them, don't just refer out to a men's behavior change program set up. Do your family centered practice, you know, so if anybody wants to do family centered practice with men who who are choosing violence, who who have some willingness to acknowledge what they've done and and want to make changes, this is a great tool for that, and it's very specific and it gives guidance and it gives professional guidance as well. So there's there's something for men themselves. It's something for professionals, it's something for the network responder, it's something for the for the victim and their posters and there's memes that go with it. So this is downloadable immediately by organizations and practitioners. And individuals to use, so we really hope to see why they disseminated, and we encourage people to kind of wrap around this free resource with some of our training, you know, download our our our white paper on white perpetrators, perpetrator programs. Completion certificates are dangerous, which really lays out good behavior change frameworks. It really helps people to to read about what real change looks like and how to measure it or take our work with that as parents online. Self-Paced course. So we're really encouraging people to to use the free resource, but rapid wrap it around a wrapper themselves with these other resources to scale up so they can. They can use it appropriately and with rigor, you know, to really help help families. [00:26:18][119.5]
Speaker 1: [00:26:18] Well, it's it's interesting because when we talk about the family and friends alike guide, which is really focused towards survivors and victims of coercive control, domestic abuse, domestic violence and sexual abuse that we are talking about one side of family accountability. And this is really the other side of the coin. When we were writing the Ally Guide, I was really aware that we hadn't quite dove down into how family and friends respond to perpetrators and how that's such a key part of creating safety and accountability, not just supporting the person or the victim who is the survivor and the children, which is super important as well. But I feel like this kind of completes the puzzle in a way, right? Because if we are honest, if we if if we don't move into that really rigid position of all abusers are monsters, which I don't believe that they are right. We know that these are people that we love, that they are our sons, that they're our brothers or their uncles, that there are fathers, and that we really do want them to be better. We want them to have a happy and fulfilled life while they're living in a stance of of of freedom and nurturance with their partner and with their children. And so it just it feels like a really good complete piece of the puzzle. [00:27:52][93.4]
Speaker 2: [00:27:52] So I'm glad it feels that way to you. I think for me, it feels like a continuation of the commitment I made years ago when I said to the courts here in Connecticut, where they wanted to take over our community based groups and say, this is only for men who get arrested because that's the nature of bureaucracies. They want to. They want to hold on to resources, and we find one to say, no, we want to keep slots open. We want this group is for community because men shouldn't have to get arrested like the poor men, men of color shouldn't have to get arrested to get help. And so that's 30 years ago. And for me, there's a continuation here saying we need more resources we can't lose sight of. The goal is safety, greater room to maneuver and act for survivors, adult and child healing. But that communities are asking for clamoring for tools that are more holistic, that really acknowledge that men stay in their kids lives, their partners lives that stay part of a community, and that if we don't listen to the voices of communities that say, help us heal our men, and that's one of the messages I got from indigenous people in Australia, and I was moved by it. One of the first times I went there was thank you for coming here and offering help to our men. And I think that we can we have to listen to those voices and hear that those voices are saying, we want safety for our women and kids. We want healing for our communities, we want our communities and families to thrive. And so this is a tool to me that really feels that, you know, speaks to that gap. But I would say it feels it, but really speaks to that gap. [00:29:32][99.3]
Speaker 1: [00:29:32] Yeah. And I think I think to I would be interested in hearing you talk a little bit, you know, above and beyond that this is an attempt to help somebody change their behavior. But what it is that you would hope that we would be teaching whole populations that haven't learned or haven't been given the freedom to really learn how to feel their feelings and then engage in behaviors which are non-harmful because that feeling is so big, whether it's anger or fear or lack of control, or that men and boys have been taught that it's not OK for them to feel vulnerable or emotional. So I, I don't know. I see this as being something myself, right? Could be very healing to allowing men to tap into their own selves in a really responsible way and understand how. Their emotional life works, but I don't know what else you would have to say about that. [00:30:32][60.1]
Speaker 2: [00:30:33] You know, for me, it's it's it's it's very personal in some ways, and it's also very much about families and about about the world we live in. And I think for me, it's at the core of it is as a man, I need to reflect on what I was taught as the message around my right to control women and other people. And I think we are talking a lot about white privilege. And, you know, I think we can talk about male privilege very much as well. And, you know, they intersect. And, you know, whether it's in the form of talking over somebody or thinking your opinion is more important or expecting people to do things for you because they're women. And and really, you know, we're on a journey myself to reflect and take responsibility for my own feelings, not make other people responsible for my own, my feelings. And I love Matt and Sarah Brown's, you know, she's not your rehab message, you know, because that is really kind of that parallel. She's not here to fix you. So I think for me is very much kind of getting it that I'm responsible, I can admit when I'm wrong. And I learned the distinction years ago about about saying, how saying I'm sorry kind of creates some slippery room in here to where you go. OK, I'm sorry you got hurt, but it's not real responsibility, and I learned to try to stand in as much as I can, saying I was wrong to do that and not be afraid of saying that. Not being afraid of saying I'm afraid or anxious or fearful. And I think men get that message pretty early on that it's dangerous to say that it's not OK. And and we built that into our men to behavior change. So this is where the personal story comes together with the work, which is that it would work with men to talk about what they were afraid of. And it's OK to feel like your partner might leave you. Be afraid that she might leave you or cheat on you. There's nothing wrong with being worried. It's when you use that worry to justify demeaning somebody, controlling them, dictating the terms of their life. Mm hmm. Tongue how they're supposed to think and feel. And I remember working with one guy who was hurt and injured, and we talked about his control and whether he told his partner and he said no. And I said, I'm worried that if you're feeling vulnerable about your, your health and your were there and that you're lying to your partner about that, that that you're more risk or becoming abusive. And he said, I understand, but I'm scared that if I tell her she'll leave me, she'll feel like I'm less of a man. And I think we have to have those conversations. But but never budge off of. You have no right to use that fear to control. You have no right to use your history of child sexual abuse as an excuse to control. It's OK to feel like you don't want to be a victim again. But but we can make the distinction, say, and it's not OK to lash out. So I think for me, the message I'm looking for to get communicate is one of sort of. Responsibility. Dismantling permissions around control and coercive control and saying that's not OK. And I think to be honest, I believe that message is coming from my brother or my parents or a loved one to me through this network that we're asking in a set up that it's going to be a more powerful message than maybe if it comes from the police for some men, because this is their frame of reference, this is my frame of reference. These are the people that matter to me, right? And if they can sometimes say may you're valuable but doesn't give you an excuse to be controlling or I'm here for you. A macro support you acting that way. I think that's what I'm looking to see shift here in terms of this. [00:34:28][235.4]
Speaker 1: [00:34:28] That's great. Well, I think that I'm really excited to see this come out air being launched this Father's Day weekend, right? And there is a poster that is attached to it, as well as social media meetings that were created so that people can can use those. We will have this up on our web site under our family and friends resources. And eventually you will be able to professionally print it with a button. We're working on that right now. And so we hope that people use this when individuals pick it up and that social workers use it in their daily contexts as well, even in the context of child protection, where we talk a lot about focusing on perpetrator behaviors and accountability. And so this really does have a wide potential use. And I think a lot about how amazingly helpful this would be of mental health professionals picked this up where we're still living in a world where we think of abuse as a relationship issue and often send abusive. People with their partner to couples counseling, which is not effective, right? You can't couples counsel away abuse. Right. So I think this is an amazing addition. [00:35:51][83.0]
Speaker 2: [00:35:52] We hope that pastors, faith communities will use it, both the family and friends alike. God combined with this. So it sends a message to the whole congregation. We're thinking universities. So so stay tuned because I'm sure we'll give you a follow up on both both these tools because we're really just starting to get them out there, get feedback, hear from people and move it forward. So for those who want more information or download this, go to safety other institute dot com. Some of those E courses I mentioned, they're at the at our Our Virtual Academy, which is Academy Dot safe and the other inside.com. And if you like this podcast, share it. You know, send it, send it to somebody else. Post it, repost it. You can find us on all sorts of podcast platforms and and we're on Facebook and Twitter and all these other social media is all LinkedIn and all the other things. And so I'm hoping we won't be gone for as long last as we were this time. So this was a month hiatus. And so we hope that that pandemic bubble, is it sort of easing or we've got more brain space for a podcast. So, so stay tuned for four more podcasts coming. [00:37:06][73.3]
Speaker 1: [00:37:06] Yes. So we will be back soon. And I'm Ruth Stern's window with the Safe and Together Institute. [00:37:11][4.7]
Speaker 2: [00:37:12] And I'm David Mandel. Also with the Safe and Together Institute. And this is partnered with a survivor [00:37:16][4.4]
Speaker 1: [00:37:17] and we're [00:37:18][0.2]
Speaker 2: [00:37:18] out. We're out. [00:37:18][0.0]
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