Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Episode 27: “How much crime are you willing to let your police commit?”: An interview with Lieutenant Detective Mark Wynn (Ret) and Police Chief Tom Tremblay (Ret)

October 16, 2020 Ruth Stearns Mandel & David Mandel Season 1 Episode 27
Episode 27: “How much crime are you willing to let your police commit?”: An interview with Lieutenant Detective Mark Wynn (Ret) and Police Chief Tom Tremblay (Ret)
Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
More Info
Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
Episode 27: “How much crime are you willing to let your police commit?”: An interview with Lieutenant Detective Mark Wynn (Ret) and Police Chief Tom Tremblay (Ret)
Oct 16, 2020 Season 1 Episode 27
Ruth Stearns Mandel & David Mandel

Send us a Text Message.

Police have been fighting against officer-involved domestic violence (OIDV)  for decades. In this episode, David & Ruth interviews two international law enforcement experts and advocates fighting against the perpetration of domestic violence by police officers. Mark Wynn and Tom Tremblay talk about how: 

  • Officer -involved domestic violence violates the public trust
  • Police executives that don’t address OIDV are colluding with criminals
  • Police officer stress is not a cause of OIDV
  • OIDV is tied to male dominated culture in police forces  
  • Use of excessive force and OIDV are connected and need to be addressed together

To learn more about Mary Wynn’s consulting

To learn more about Tom Tremblay’s consulting 

To listen to  the other episodes in this series:

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Show Notes Transcript

Send us a Text Message.

Police have been fighting against officer-involved domestic violence (OIDV)  for decades. In this episode, David & Ruth interviews two international law enforcement experts and advocates fighting against the perpetration of domestic violence by police officers. Mark Wynn and Tom Tremblay talk about how: 

  • Officer -involved domestic violence violates the public trust
  • Police executives that don’t address OIDV are colluding with criminals
  • Police officer stress is not a cause of OIDV
  • OIDV is tied to male dominated culture in police forces  
  • Use of excessive force and OIDV are connected and need to be addressed together

To learn more about Mary Wynn’s consulting

To learn more about Tom Tremblay’s consulting 

To listen to  the other episodes in this series:

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Speaker 1: [00:00:16] And we're back and we're back. All right. Yeah, this is partnered with a survivor and this is part of our multi-part series on officer involved domestic violence, and we've got some great guests. So we're going to introduce in a few minutes. And if you're joining us for the first time, this is a podcast series about all things domestic violence, is what I started saying. And you know, that may not be the best way to describe it, but it's about intimate conversation between Ruth and I, about our life as a survivor and my my life as a professional in the field, and it's expanded to interviews with all sorts of folks. And if you're listening, there are other interviews with a journalist, Alex Roslin, about office, about domestic violence, police wife, and he's an international crime and international expert around this issue. We've had Annette Chisholm, you know, who is a survivor of Oadby, a trainer and a trainer, and say, we've got really excited to get a law enforcement perspective on this issue. But if you're listening to podcasts, you know, we're going to be covering coming up domestic violence and the Family Court. We've covered on honor based abuse, restorative justice. And so just just really be aware there are lots of things that that that we talk about if you're interested in the topic.  [00:01:36][79.4]

Speaker 2: [00:01:37] Yeah. And so I want to introduce our our podcast guests. And it was really important that when we were doing this series that we brought in the voices of law enforcement and their perspective and the hard work that they've done on the backside to try to address this issue. And I have to say, when I first started diving into a white TV as a topic, as a survivor, I felt kind of abandoned and scared about our world, knowing that we hadn't truly addressed this issue. And I have to say the first time I spoke to one of our our guests, Mark Quinn, and he is a retired lieutenant detective. Detective, I felt a little better about the world, which was which was really good. And I'm just super happy that he's just worked way for over twenty five years on this issue. And then, you know, he introduced me to to Thomas Tremblay, who is a retired chief of police, Burlington, Vermont, Burlington, Vermont, and who has also been super dedicated to this issue as well. And so I just want to I want to welcome you both and express my appreciation for you being here with us to talk about police perspective on. Thank you so much.  [00:02:51][74.6]

Speaker 1: [00:02:51] Thank you both for being on the show.  [00:02:52][0.9]

Speaker 3: [00:02:54] Thank you.  [00:02:54][0.2]

Speaker 1: [00:02:54] Thank you. And we know this is an issue that has lots of layers to it, and we may not cover all those layers today. And it has implications, obviously, for the survivors who are victims of a police officer perpetrated. Domestic violence has implications for public safety in terms of those officers responding to domestic violence. It has correlations with excessive force use, the data shows, and even implications for operational efficiency and readiness of departments. You know, because worker safety and worker safety, you know, because some of these officers who are perpetrating domestic violence are more likely to be getting in altercations with their with their colleagues, even in departments. And so for us, we've been hearing throughout this series, you know, we've got Leonhard Johnson, who's a pioneer, and in the research in this area, we've got Alex Roslin, you know, who is a journalist and we've gotten that Chisholm and we may have other people over time. But for us today, what we really loved is to start with is when you think of both of you as as a as a retired chief and a retired lieutenant detective, what is this issue of ID we look like from your law enforcement perspective?  [00:04:08][73.2]

Speaker 3: [00:04:11] Well, Tom, you want to go first and then I'll follow.  [00:04:13][2.2]

Speaker 1: [00:04:15] Go ahead, Mark.  [00:04:16][0.3]

Speaker 3: [00:04:17] Well, you know, this is a topic that really we started talking about this around 1984 85, when the U.S. attorney general, its first report on domestic violence, told the country that the preferred response from law enforcement to domestic violence is arrest. That changed everything, because from that moment on it put a mandate for law enforcement, so before that, it was all discretionary. Police kind of made it up as they went. They didn't have to arrest anybody. And that changed everything once that changed. It took that arrest decision out of the hands of police. Executives basically said that your family, your police family, is no different than any other family in 87 88. I have clear memories of traveling around the country with ACP. The International Association of Chiefs of Police and Training Police chiefs on how to write policies on TV for the general public. And we were we tiptoed around it, but we talked about lawsuits where cities have been sued for failing to protect and police cases like Watson vs. Kansas City and Bangor vs. New York, where police lost a lot of money for having a differential treatment when it came to police family. So we since that time, by the way, since a for the violence against women that came into play, we focused on it quite a bit more seriously, actually. I mean, it is a unique dangers. It is a crime. It threatens your Ainslie's mission and the morale of an agency. There's a high liability risk, has impact on your integrity. And and I know Tom agrees with this. He and I trained together a lot. We're like minded. You know, public service is the public trust. There's no there's no compromise. You can't. You can't just be half, you know, a public servant. If you want to do this work or you don't and you you're answerable to the public. And if we can't hold our own accountable, then we need to get out of the way and let somebody else take this job.  [00:06:21][123.9]

Speaker 1: [00:06:25] That's right, Mark. And, you know, I will say I agree with Mark and, you know, the issue around police officer, domestic violence. You know, we've been addressing for quite some time. You know, this really goes back to, you know, in the United States, it goes back to the mid 90s when you know, I think the. International Association of Chiefs of Police and others where we're trying to address this started really in 1996 with the Lundberg amendment, which really again forced law enforcement to take a close look at this Lundberg amendment, meaning that if you have a domestic violence conviction, you can't possess firearms. Federal law. And in 1997 and 1999, IACP went on a national and international mission to really develop a policy, a policy that was designed to address police officer domestic violence. And the main components of this policy one was, of course, victim safety to save lives, to preserve careers and enhance community trust. And as Mark said, public trust is critical in this. You can't demand trust. You have to earn trust, and earning trust is showing that you have tangible evidence that you can police your own, that you can you recognize the significance of domestic violence generally and then more significant, the the absolute violation of public trust. And when it's perpetrated by a police officer. So the IACP actually created a policy in 2002 and and put it out nationally and internationally and here in the United States in 2003, there was a significant issue that still many of us point to today as really changing the way that law enforcement as a whole looks at this. And that was the Chief David Brame domestic violence case out of Tacoma, Washington. Chief David Brame actually killed his wife and him and himself in front of their children. And it really caused law enforcement as a whole to look at this and recognize the serious jeopardy that victims of domestic violence are in. And the significance of the violation of public trust. The ethics of the profession that most law enforcement officers, the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers here to those ethics and professionalism. So this is a big issue for law enforcement across the world.  [00:09:01][156.1]

Speaker 2: [00:09:02] I think it's I think it's interesting to see how the awareness arose that it was a major issue not just for victims safety, but public safety and the perception of police officers not living there serve and protect values, which is what we're all raised to believe and and see police officers. So it feels like a betrayal. But I guess my question would be is, even though the IACP brought forward these recommendations, that really hasn't moved forward into it being applied in two precincts across the country unilaterally. What's the impediment to doing that and why hasn't that happened so far?  [00:09:44][42.4]

Speaker 3: [00:09:47] Well, I can answer some of that. I know and Tom talked about Tacoma. I've trained that agency. It's a good agency. Matter of fact, I was a middle of a day of training when Brain killed his wife and committed suicide. I had a department split up into two groups and a month between the training. When I came back after he killed his wife, I committed suicide. The attendance was much higher in my class. I can tell you that. And I met with the City Council members and Tacoma because they wanted to find out how much liability they had in the case. And they told me they had a million dollar contingency fund for the lawsuit and I told them they need to go to the bank. Because they're going to need more money, and the lawsuit that was filed was $75 million and they settled out of court, I think, for 13 million. Now the taxpayers to pay that bill, obviously. So Tom's right. That was a wake up call for not only police departments, but city governments. And the standard now that's looked at at cities and states considers offshore all domestic violence, Tennessee, he's got a model policy for the rainy season. That model means we offer you a model that you can enact for your agency. Washington State's got one enacted by law after the braincase, they said you have to have a policy across the state. Oregon followed suit with a law that said You have to have a law on offshore policy on offshore ball domestic violence. North Dakota's got one. Florida has one. So we're starting to see states take up the mantle and set it as a standard for other agencies across the country. We're not there yet, though, and I and Tom and I have talked about this quite often and I'll let him comment on. But I think, you know, law enforcement mandated to do certain things to meet a standard so they can get federal assistance from federal money, you know, assistance from the FBI, the crime lab, you know, sharing intelligence information. We've got requirements and reporting that we don't do a certain kind of reporting to the federal government. We can't get their assistance. And I'm for today requiring every police department the country to meet a standard and having a policy. They don't they don't get federal assistance. And I hope eventually if we get a I don't be too political here, but if we get a administration, it's really about police reform. That's one of the things that we'll do because we don't know the numbers. And you can't attack something in law enforcement less, you know, the numbers, and we'll know the numbers if we require police to start reporting them to the federal government. So I me to go on and on. But I mean, there's a lot of moving parts to this and there's a lot of really a lot of been hard work. And Tom and I and others have been involved in that for years now.  [00:12:28][160.7]

Speaker 1: [00:12:28] Well, that's you know, I want to balance this off because I agree, you know, that we want people to hear. And when I heard you speak Marc, in the pre-interview, I walked away with an appreciation of how much work has been done at the same time, what acknowledge how far we have to go? And you know, and you know, when you listen to that story, for instance, she got a really positive response from the chief of the officer who abused her and, you know, got got support from a spouse of another police officer and those things were critical. And you're right, you know, I see very little transparency at this point in most jurisdictions around how often is this happening? What's the discipline? You know, what's the criminal charging? What are the outcomes? You know, how does this compare to other officer infractions or, you know, disciplinary efforts?  [00:13:18][49.8]

Speaker 2: [00:13:19] And what is being termed as in personnel files? Because unfortunately, it is being termed as other disciplinary actions and is being hidden behind disciplinary language at times. So it's difficult to ascertain. Sure.  [00:13:35][15.8]

Speaker 3: [00:13:36] So Tom, do you want to? Did you want to  [00:13:37][1.4]

Speaker 1: [00:13:38] add on to what Marc had been saying? Yeah, I think there are a lot of countries that are in similar situations, right, that a lot of countries can mandate federal support and funding and all of those things. So I think it's something that every country needs to be thinking about, but. But when you look at the U.S. again, you know, IACP started working on this issue and creating a model policy in the late 1990s and who we're still having a conversation today about why departments haven't created policy and this is something we run into a lot. Marc talked about the state laws that require it. My state, Vermont and created a statewide model policy without it required law. And I think there are other police departments that have that have done that, but far too many have not. And there's two schools of thoughts. When I talked to police leaders about this issue, as well as sexual misconduct by police officers, they oftentimes point to look. We don't need a policy that tells police officers not to abuse it, use their spouse. We don't need a policy that tells police officers not to sexually assault citizens and coworkers. And I disagree, and I share with them the information that we have and the case examples the tragic case examples across the country. And, you know, the Nanette Chisholm case that I had a chance to listen to her interview, you know, she had to report it directly to the police chief. Right. And it sounds like that police chief either was very aware of police perpetrated domestic violence or at the very least, very up to date and up to speed on domestic violence offenders and there, of course, of conduct. And so he took action and that was that was really good to hear. And you also heard her talk about how empowering that was to be a be involved in that process. She was interviewed. The case was investigated. And and so those are the good things that are happening. There are many departments who have looked at this understood the magnitude of this problem and really addressed it because this is really when you break this down. This is about offender course of conduct, the offender course of conduct as we we have to shift from looking at this as a police officer and start thinking about this from the offender perspective. The offender perspective is they oftentimes feel entitled to use power and control and manipulate people to do what they feel, entitled to do over someone else. And we have to shift that thought process to this. And what we know about police perpetrated domestic violence is power authorities already immediately built into this? That's right. And, you know, in the authority that the police have and the the knowledge that they have about the systems and how to manipulate systems. And so you have you have a very, very well-versed offender in cases of police perpetrated domestic violence. They not only, you know, have the inclination that they have to do the behaviors and the normal quote unquote. I did work with perpetrators for years, the normal tools, but they have enhanced tools and enhanced status. So I completely agree. Absolutely. So I'm really curious, you know, from both your perspectives in law enforcement. You know, what is the most harmful? You know, it's there's so many aspects. What's the most harmful aspect of officer perpetrator domestic violence when you look at it from your experience level as. You know that that particular unique ability to control that survivor. The repercussions for public safety and trust to please the connections with excessive force. Where do you go first? Do your mind as you're thinking about and talking to law enforcement about the greatest harm of this kind of academic and unaddressed behavior in many ways?  [00:17:29][231.6]

Speaker 3: [00:17:31] Well, it's not complicated to me. Any time you face up, my police executive, achieve a sheriff. Is a citizen, if this is a concern for you, you should ask them, how much crime are you willing to let your police commit? I mean, let's just get right down to it, and it sounds absurd when you say it. But really, I mean, this is a crime. So I ask him, how many banks would you allow your officers to rob in a year? Because we're talking about a criminal act and if and if they say, Well, you know, honestly, the police family, it's about stress, it's about this, it's about that. Come on. Just save me. Just first say this is ridiculous. All right. You are allowing one of your employees who is a sworn under oath, broke their hand, swore an oath of office to protect the public. Everybody in that science citizen and non-citizen, if if they swore into their sworn public servant and they're breaking the law, why are you let them do that? All right. So basically what you're doing here, you're colluding with a criminal. Let's just be honest about it. And there's no room for collusion of criminals, we can't do that in policing because if we do, the chain reaction is devastating. The public doesn't trust you. The advocates don't trust you and the victims don't trust you. And I can tell you from firsthand advocacy working with advocates around the country. I get calls all the time and they say I cannot trust my police department because the captain other lead, the major lieutenant, is an offender. And when you hear that, here's what happens, the advocate says to the victim, Don't call that agency because you can't trust them. Yeah. Now think about that for a second. That's right. It's like telling somebody, I know your house is on fire, but don't call that fire department. It's ridiculous. So when we make these decisions of having these executive privileges where we can say, well, you know, it wasn't a lot of domestic violence, then we destroy the integrity of law enforcement. And Tom said this many times this is not a job. It's a calling. It's a noble profession. And I stole that line from him for years, and I believe it to be true. And if we believe that, then we have to stand up to that noble profession and say, we're not going to tolerate Officer Ball domestic violence.  [00:19:52][141.6]

Speaker 1: [00:19:54] You make it so clear and so simple. Mark and I hope that the folks listening can hear in your voice when I hear your voice and what I'm seeing in your face, which is absolute commitment and clarity and integrity and integrity, and your desire for law enforcement to live that out across the jurisdictions and every police executive like you're saying, just, you know, you know, something I want to be like, OK, our podcast is done. And people just need to listen to that two minutes and and get it because I think that's the clarity that I think I love and that we're looking for. Survivors are looking for advocates are looking for because you're right, it's absurd to say how much bank robbery, how much drug dealing do you accept on the part of your your officers? You know, how much larceny is, is, is acceptable, you know, embezzlement, you know? And people would laugh is almost laughable, but they do think differently about domestic abuse. Well, one  [00:20:50][56.8]

Speaker 3: [00:20:51] one, the one of the banks could be a one of the things to consider. Just a few days ago, a Myrtle Beach police officer was gunned down. By domestic violence offender, domestic violence offenders have been killing U.S. police officers since we've had U.S. police officers. I've lost four friends killed in the line of duty, protecting people they don't know. And for us to say that this is different for police is a disgrace to the memory of the officers have been killed in the line of duty, protecting victims they don't know. So it's even that bad when you make excuses for all small domestic violence. It just it's disgraceful, and it should be looked that way by every politician, every police chief, every judge, every prosecutor in the world, not just the United States, not in 16 other countries in arms, right? This is not just a U.S. problem that the French have an incredible problem with this right now. I get calls from them often about the military and law enforcement, and they're struggling. The English have had a big problem. You know, you've trained in the U.K. and I have to they have a real problem with it, and they're trying to face it as best they can. So this is not just a U.S. problem.  [00:21:56][65.6]

Speaker 2: [00:21:57] Tom, what would you add to the main danger of OTV?  [00:22:00][2.9]

Speaker 1: [00:22:03] Well, the first step marks hit on all of the high points here, the real concerns, but my concern always goes to the victims, the victims who are experiencing the violence, the abuse, the trauma. And then I think I'll just expand on Mark's points that this tarnishes the professionalism or reputation, not only of our profession as a whole, but each individual women and men who again respond and serve and protect in an honorable way that makes our profession noble. It impacts them as well. And so that's why addressing this, establishing standalone policies on this issue have been seen as a national best practice and international best practice and making sure that you have that policy that can help direct that first response officer on the scene. Imagine responding to the scene and being a police officer. Take them out of the middle of that, give them guidance so every officer knows exactly what is they're responsible for. Take them out of the middle of that and make sure we address this in a way that is in line with really 21st century professional policing.  [00:23:17][73.8]

Speaker 2: [00:23:18] Yeah, it's all about giving people the tools and knowing what those tools are via transparency and understanding the problem intimately. That I think is is often really the challenge for people, because there's so much about policing and policing policy and laws that is really state to state. You know, I recently learned that in Maryland, you can't get the police files, personnel files of a police officer, whereas in other states you can you can have access to those. So, you know, I feel like part of the issue is also that we have to address this issue almost state by state and precinct by precinct. In many ways. I don't know if that jives with your experience.  [00:24:00][41.5]

Speaker 1: [00:24:05] I don't know if it's, you know, I do think that we have created some level of a standard, you know, national standard and even an international standard when you look at the leadership from the International Association of Chiefs of Police has been addressing this issue for a long time. Mark talked about state mandates for laws. We know what works. We know we have to create a policy and we have to. That policy has got to be a cornerstone. That policy has got to be looking at the culture of your organization and the culture of policing as a whole. And and that's how we begin to manage the culture of an organization. That's that's what law enforcement's done for decades decades. We create policies to manage expectations and professionalism, but also it's got to look at addressing the culture of policing.  [00:24:56][50.9]

Speaker 2: [00:24:57] And that's an interesting point, because Professor Leonora Johnson, who is, you know, worked in this. You both are aware of her and I don't know if you've personally met her or worked with her, but she has been really dedicated to the notion of police stress and police mental health. And that's how she stumbled upon officer involved domestic violence as a factor in policing. And she has really spoken about how police officers can be demoted or marginalized for their needs, for mental health services and how that carries over into their families. And although stress and PTSD are not caused to domestic violence, they can correlate to it and it can exacerbate it. So that culture of valuing officers and understanding that they're living a very difficult experience daily that has a lot of stress and a lot of alarm involved and supporting them emotionally with mental health and not stigmatizing, that seems to be part of that support that needs to happen. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts about that.  [00:26:03][65.5]

Speaker 3: [00:26:03] Well, no Officer Wellness has got to be number one, and it hasn't always been that way to Tamil day, and I policed them in a lifetime of bother police for 48 68. My brother retired Dallas, my uncle, 40 years of the highway patrol. I've got two nephews on duty right now. The stress and strain of working in law enforcement is really pretty incredible. You know, emotional labor is heavy. You carry with you every day. Traditionally, we kill ourselves more than suspects. With exception of this year, I think we've had over 230 officers now coping so far this year. But the attacking of wellness is a big issue. And when you do, you should be talking about if you are stressed, here's what can happen. But we cannot. We cannot go back to the excuses of stress is that is the causes of domestic violence. Domestic violence is a choice. You choose to do it air traffic controllers or stress through heart surgeons or screens. You imagine open somebody just working too hard. You know, we don't say, well, you know, because you do that work, you can hit your wife when you get home from the surgery. So we shouldn't excuse it at all, but we should understand it. That it makes it harder is like alcohol is an accelerant to the mastic. Violence and stress can be in Celera, but it's not. It's not the core reasons. So police departments have to look at the way they take care of the emotional state of their officer. Do they have critical incident debriefing, re-appear counseling, psychological  [00:27:30][87.1]

Speaker 1: [00:27:31] services that officers can trust?  [00:27:32][1.0]

Speaker 3: [00:27:33] One of the things that I think many times officers would walk in my office and say, I just can't trust my own agency because if I report them in trouble, they'll take me off my duty that I'm on, right? So and that's critical. You know, the badges is a very interesting thing with a lot of women and manage their complete identity. And the last thing you want to do is ruin that. So you hide it and it gets worse, and I'll send you drinking more. And then you get caught drunk driving and then you lose your career. And you know, all that has to be, you know, cop beforehand, like domestic violence. So the answer to this is early intervention. How do we early  [00:28:09][36.4]

Speaker 1: [00:28:10] on intervene and it starts way  [00:28:12][1.9]

Speaker 3: [00:28:12] before you hire these people? We have to screen them. You have to ask questions about have you ever been under protective order? Are you a child survivor of domestic violence?  [00:28:18][6.2]

Speaker 1: [00:28:19] If you have been in a relationship that went bad,  [00:28:20][1.4]

Speaker 3: [00:28:21] check all their addresses of everywhere they live. So you can  [00:28:24][2.8]

Speaker 1: [00:28:24] see the police have responded those addresses and then, you know, trying  [00:28:27][3.2]

Speaker 3: [00:28:28] your background investigators to understand the true nature of domestic violence because these offenders are very manipulative and you don't want these people in ranks. Once they get it right, it's almost impossible to get rid of them and they can wreak havoc on a police department. You know, Tom Barlow, I joined Tom and I did together. We talked about the host of our case, Tom, you what? You want to talk about that case in Oklahoma City, about the officer who was doing that.  [00:28:51][23.2]

Speaker 1: [00:28:51] But yeah, the Daniel Holtzclaw case, I think is what you're referencing is a police sexual misconduct case where, you know, he he was, you know, sexually assaulting citizens in his own community and his home. He's now serving the rest of his life in prison. But these are the kinds of abuses that we're talking about that really impact across the board, not just the victims, but the trust in the way the community looks at us. And so policies that address police perpetrated domestic violence and police perpetrated sexual misconduct because these are interconnected, from my perspective. Again, I go back to what I know from the research in our study. My experience working with those who offend is that they oftentimes are committing interconnected and co-occurring crimes, and that includes domestic violence, sexual assault, stalking, strangulation and and really looking at that and recognizing how that if it's not held in check, if we don't hold it accountable oftentimes can escalate even to the point of lethality. And we've seen that in police perpetrated domestic violence a number of times. I reference to David Braincase that goes back many, many years, but cases have just happened this year. And so I just want to come back to Officer Wellness and safety. It really does need to be mentioned in any time that we're talking about police reform. We have got to invest in the women and men who put themselves in harm's way every day. And it is tough. But like Marc, I experienced pain, I experienced injury. I experienced trauma, experienced stress. But the choice that when I went home was not to abuse my spouse. And and so we've got to make sure we invest in those, and I think we're doing a better job today of that. We still have a long way to go. And when you look at the stats in the United States around suicide, I think Mark mentioned it's one of the leading causes of death for police officers. That's that's not OK. We really have to we have to pay attention to that for sure when we're talking about any any level of police reform. Yeah. And I think, you know, the idea of what does it take to change the culture in police departments where it feels safe enough for an officer to come forward, where there where the tone is set at the beginning, when they're cadets or they're coming in to say, you know what, your mental health is important and it looks like this and it looks like that, and we want you to come to us. If this is going on, this is the help available and you won't lose your post and you won't lose your position and you, you know, we want to help you, and it's normal. I mean, I think that that normalization is so important. And I think that for for a and that in the U.S. particularly, it's so Male-Dominated. I think this probably falls into a lot of the same category of men don't like to ask for directions. Men don't like to ask for help. Men perceive that they're weak if they need mental health counseling. That's the stereotype. And you know, that must be part of this challenge as well and law enforcement changing the culture around all these things, which is that sort of masculine identity issues you may get in the way of actually implementing some of these changes. I wonder what you think about that. Well, you know, from the old school, Tom Coburn. No, actually, sir.  [00:32:07][195.6]

Speaker 3: [00:32:08] So I've got rank here.  [00:32:10][1.7]

Speaker 1: [00:32:10] I have to say you give preference to the cheap right now, right? I'm sorry. You got seniority, my friend.  [00:32:16][6.2]

Speaker 3: [00:32:18] No, I'm from the old school. I mean, Ryan McCarthy, who was one of the old old hands and l.a.p.d. Years ago, I was a swat officer for 15 years, was well here in Nashville, and I heard him conference say one time this guy had studied, you know, police tragedies and chaos for all his career. He is known as the modern day father, the police swat. He said, You can boil every problem. We have down to two things how you hire and who who you hire and how you train them. So we don't need just anybody policing. We need people with integrity. You can't give somebody that in a police academy if you got it or you don't. So we have to make sure that we find the right people and they're out there. There's a lot of good women and men who are really, really want to be in law enforcement, so we have to make sure we find those people. But we also have to look at ourselves and do a real careful self assessment of who we are, you know? And that means listening to people who have criticism of us. I hear and I probably get a lot of a lot of hate mail over this, but I hear a lot of people talking about the police. Woe is me. Woe is me. What did you think you were going to be when you signed up to be a police officer? Do you understand that you worked with the public? Do you understand if the public and the culture changes, you have to change with it, and that means listening to victims of domestic and sexual violence, listening to the cultural change in our society, around racism and homophobia that has to be listened to. We've reformed police since I got into policing and we'll continue to reform. Let's stop complaining and let's get to work. And when we do that, you'll start self assessing your own agencies. You know, one of the another one of my role models from years ago was named Toni Boza. Toni was a Creek Precinct captain in the New York City Police Department, who was famous in his one of the first documentaries on police and called the police files. It's an old film on YouTube. You watch it, you'll see him in there when they first started looking at police. Well, Tony came over to Minneapolis. That's where I met him as the police chief. I think it was 1983 or 84, and he was one of the first police chiefs that I ever heard talk about domestic violence as a preventative crime. I mean, I'd never heard of one. I'm a survivor of domestic violence have been banned for 10 years, the child of working in policing and I had awful response employees and I'm not mad. The police got into police to change it. But when when Bowser finally retired, you know, he talked about, he talked about the blue code of silence. We have to find out, is it really going on today? And he wrote a book called Police Unbound and one of the things he said in his book that just stood out to me was that, look, this is his opinion now, OK? He said the mafia never enforced its code of blood sworn omerta with ferocity and enthusiasm. Then the police bring to the blue code of silence. Now think about that for a minute. So if we aren't policing hiding officers in our ranks, we're colluding with criminals again. So we got to make sure that there is no blue code of silence anymore. We got to we got to erase all that. And that means hiring the right people to be more inclusive, be more understanding of cultures and to look at the future. We have to have our vision of the future. We got a lot of work in front of us. A lot of people are suffering and dying, including police officers. So we got work to do. We don't have time for this fighting. You know, our dirty laundry from the public. Sorry, I just it just now.  [00:35:40][202.7]

Speaker 1: [00:35:41] It's it's it's wonderful to hear and clear and a really important message. So Tom, I know you deferred to Mark and I give you a chance to speak. That's why I defer to Marc. You hear the EPA, the seniority in that, you know? And Marc, I, you know, he says, I outrank him, but he's been a mentor of mine for a long time because of the truth that he speaks. And I is a highly regarded brother officer that I hold a real high esteem. So, you know, we've got to look at the culture and we do have to have conversations about Male-Dominated culture. And this is something that I talk about despite our best efforts to hire women to hire minorities. Our profession still struggles with this and across the world, quite frankly. And so I'm not here to bash my gender, but I am here to say, you know, what is our culture? How do we view gender based violence? Do we look at as, Mark always says, as a distraction? Or are we really focused on it? And imagine a, you know, a police offender, someone who is a domestic violence offender who's a police officer? Imagine that person responding to your domestic violence call. Are you going to see empathy and sensitivity? Are you going to see? Understanding and so we've got we've got a floor of that culture, and we've really got to look at that, and I grew up in a male dominated culture, and sometimes I heard confusing messages about what it meant to be a man, what it meant for you that you heard degrading and objectifying comments about women. You heard degrading and objectifying comments about lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and and this hyper masculine view that is, you know, steeped in the patriarchal history of our country and other countries where men have been in power and women. Haven't you got to explore that? You've got to be what I got to have, what I call courageous conversations where police, police leaders and community can talk about male dominated cultures in a way that we don't get defensive and we recognize it really has to be addressed. We're not addressing it as on domestic violence as a whole. Unless we really go after that as well, and we have to do it with courage and not getting defensive about it,  [00:38:05][144.2]

Speaker 2: [00:38:06] and I think it's really interesting because one of the things that I've heard throughout as a theme throughout all of the people that I've come into contact with who have had long histories with TV and reform is that everybody is involved because they love the the mission of the police. They believe in it and they want the public to be safe and they want that integrity and trust to to be reestablished because it really has truly been broken. And so I think it's really important to just sort of center that because things can get very negative, very clear about  [00:38:45][39.1]

Speaker 1: [00:38:45] law enforcement and everybody talks about wanting law enforcement officers to be healthy. Right? You know, in this in this conversation, you know, this time, you know, this period where there's an intense focus more than I think I remember in my lifetime when reform of law enforcement. And you know, it's it's being centered on excessive force, police brutality, issues of systemic racism. And I'm wondering what both of you, what your observations are about the connection between ODB offers to perpetrate domestic violence and excessive force against the public, particularly in the context of race. And, you know, because the data shows connections and in fact, the International Association of Police Chiefs, I believe they acknowledge those connections as well. I'm curious about both your observations because this is where the public attention on police reform is is being driven by at this point.  [00:39:38][52.5]

Speaker 3: [00:39:40] Well, I'm involved in a group this this being sort of coordinated at Johns Hopkins now on racism and police reform. And we've been talking about this for a couple of months because we're getting ready as we should for the next next year, and you're after about what that looks like because we've got to talk about racism in policing. And let me just say something about racism just for a second. There's always been some form of racism in American policing because there's always been some form of racism in this country. You pick people from the general public to work in law enforcement, from the general. But in law enforcement you bring that with them, you bring it. So you try to find people who aren't. Don't bring that luggage with them, basically, but it's been there. And the other thing too, Tom talked about male privilege. And I can I can tell you that I clearly understand what my privilege is, and I totally understand what racism is. I'm white and male and I'm a Southerner. I was soaked in racism like a biscuit, the gravy. So I know exactly what it is. The question is, how does it impact your work? And this is the only question we should be asking if we have people raised as a homophobic slur or hate people because of their gender or their status? How does that impact your work in protecting victims and holding offenders accountable? That should be the question. If it does, then this time for us to sit down at the table and say, Let's get rid of all this bad luggage, and let's get back to the business of protecting the public because it's there and people say it's not. You know, just recently I heard the federal government is stopping, you know, their instructors were talking about racism and bias. What's the matter with them? Are they crazy? What are we talking? They were talking about humans. You know, your biases today aren't your grandfather's biases, no doubt. But they're still there and they impact the way you work. Ask anybody who worked on that documentary. I am evidence that looked at the untested rape kits in this country. Detroit had a 10000. Why were they untested? You look at the reports and they say, this woman can't be raped and she's a prostitute. That's a bias that impacted other women because if they tested those kids, other women wouldn't have been raped. That's why this is no impact it has on other crime victims. So we got to get smart about this and start listening to victims about racism and homophobia and how it impacts us. We can't deny it anymore. It's there. And if people do, you know, we just can't. I just, you know, I guess the older I get, the more I'm one of those old people say, you know, I care about what you do, not what you say. And I'm sorry, I guess it just happens to you. But we got some serious problems here, and we're going to have to face this. I mean, there's a new awakening. If people didn't realize that after George Floyd and it should have been way before then, right? I can name you malice green and all these others who were killed by officer who should not have been killed. And let me tell you, in 1985, I was policing. Then that was public in 1977, when a young young child was killed by the Memphis police running away from a burglary. And that case went all the way to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said, you can't shoot fleeing felons anymore. So we stopped shooting people in the back as they ran away. And that changed policing. But we've got this problem in this country about the way we police certain populations now. The thing I think is causes problems now is that African-American women are saying, you know, you know, you never included me in your solutions in 1985, 86, 87, when the better women's movement said, we want the criminal justice system to get involved and help us. You never included us. And because of that, now we're going back and saying, Wait a minute, you're right, we never ask you. Because at the same time that the battered women's movement was getting police involved to make arrests. Police were arresting proportionally more black men, black men than white men. So we have to face these realities and say, how do we make it equal and truly represent what it is if justice is blind when it's applied by the police?  [00:43:32][232.1]

Speaker 1: [00:43:34] Hello for you, Tom. You know, the the the good news is that, you know this there's there's clearly a lot of challenges as Marcus outline for us. But when we look at early warning signs for the prevention of police officer involved domestic violence, certainly they kind of fall under two categories one, aggressiveness and abuse of power and so on. And also focused on that bias that we that we sometimes bring into, you know, a gender bias that's that's been identified in numerous case examples around the country. But when we look at these early warning signs and how we outline them in our policy, excessive and or increased use of force, unusually high incidents of physical altercations and verbal disputes, stalking or inappropriate surveillance activities. Citizen and officer complaints of unwarranted aggression and verbal abuse. Engaging in objectifying degrading behaviors and comments about women or lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender questioning communities. Victim blaming, degrading comments about victims of domestic violence and sexual assault. Promoting an US versus them mentality. You know, just constantly repeating that it's us versus them and seeing ourselves as this us versus them thing. And so there's a lot of pattern issues related to early warning signs that we address in these policies. And if we make supervisors especially aware of this. Supervisors can watch carefully and care for their officers that that are in their command and watch carefully for these early warning signs that we've come to recognize, we can prevent this from happening and prevent victimization and potentially save careers as well. And so I, you know, we've got a lot of work to do, but we've got a policy here and the question we have to ask police leaders around the world is why don't you have this policy? Why are not? Why aren't you addressing this in a way that is going to be tangible evidence that you, as a police leader, understand the serious nature of domestic violence and the serious violation of public trust when it comes to police perpetrated domestic violence?  [00:45:50][135.9]

Speaker 2: [00:45:51] Yeah. And I think to, you know, part of it is landing in a place where we have clarity around the data and around the issues because there is lack of data transparency, lack of data sharing on police criminality. And there have been some improvements for police chiefs to be able to confirm whether or not hires have been arrested. You know, they have priors for domestic violence. Do you guys want to talk about some of that? Because I think that's a super important issue.  [00:46:22][30.7]

Speaker 3: [00:46:23] Yeah, you know, that's a good question. And that's part of the problem, I think. It's all it's always been the problem with domestic violence, and I've watched research since the early 80s that asked police in 82. We didn't have a lot of research. Now we've got research that's incredible on, I think, a 300, you know, clinical research studies on the impacts of exposure to children. And it just gets bigger and bigger, bigger. But this is one of those fields where we don't. But if we think that the same level of domestic violence is in the police family, the general public for the United States, that puts it about 60 to 180000 police families are experiencing domestic violence today. That's just at the public numbers. So we don't know that there are any higher or lower end of the breadth of the study four years ago, and they found they had high numbers in the clergy and in London,  [00:47:14][51.4]

Speaker 2: [00:47:15] 15 times the rates of domestic violence and law enforcement than in the general public  [00:47:19][4.3]

Speaker 3: [00:47:19] with the home. That's a great thing about the Brits. They've got the Home Secretary's office. They can study these things all across the entire kingdom, but we don't have that. So with our Justice Department, it'd be nice if we could have them have those numbers of data so we can attack this problem. And then again, I go back to mandating departments of having protocols and policies on this. It's just so critical that we know because with those mandates and that you have to report it, then we can look at the true numbers and see see where they are.  [00:47:48][28.6]

Speaker 2: [00:47:49] What about for you, Tom? What about on the data sharing and policy side there?  [00:47:53][4.6]

Speaker 1: [00:47:55] Absolutely the same thing. You know, again, we see what we see in certainly in the United States and some of the training I've done nationally, I've heard the same same concerns that, you know, if we don't hold these offenders accountable, that is officers who are perpetrating domestic violence. We don't hold them accountable. We don't firearm. We don't decertify them. Then they oftentimes jump to other departments and we have no really no data to understand that. So again, this is another point where I'm going to, you know, I'm going to really point to this policy. This policy on preventing police perpetrated domestic violence addresses those concerns. Make sure we hold them accountable. Make sure that we decertify that in our hiring. Mark talked about pre hiring and screening that if you're hiring an officer from another department, that officer must sign a waiver that allows full disclosure of reasons why you may have left that department and it. Make sure we're not hiring this problem into our organization. And then again, making sure that we hold them accountable to a level of discipline and a really zero tolerance for police perpetrated domestic violence. You can't be a police officer if you have committed domestic violence, if you've been, certainly if you've been convicted. And so those are the kind of things that that we really have to be together on.  [00:49:22][87.4]

Speaker 2: [00:49:23] I know that David wants to ask a question about something else, but I want to just jump in there because again, one of the biggest impediments is is that most police officers are not arrested for their domestic violence. If they are, they remain on the force even if they are convicted of domestic violence. The sentences are usually diminished down to to something that doesn't take their gun away, their service weapon away, and oftentimes even those domestic violence incidences that are responded to by fellow police are written into personnel files as non-criminal behaviors like behavior unbecoming of an officer or something like that which really, truly highlights the issues so that we don't get a true picture of the perpetration and the danger levels. So, you know, that's something that definitely has to change in order for us to address this properly. I don't know if you want to jump in with your question.  [00:50:20][56.7]

Speaker 1: [00:50:21] I have so many thoughts going through my head. This is such a great set of interviews, and we're so grateful to both Mark and Tom for this and to get your perspective as as long term police officers and advocates for reform in this area. So one thing, Tom, going back to your point. You know, I think it sounds like if if we got better at addressing excessive force complaints, we would stop Oadby. And if we got better or we would do so, it'd be we got better at EDV, we'd actually reduce excessive force is. You know that we would. You know that this is interrelated and it's very fitting with the work we do around domestic violence perpetration to save it together into to where we we talk to a perpetrator patterned lens. And how do you break down those silos and people think, well, this trauma treatment over here and IPV over here, and we're like, No, these are being perpetrated by the same person. And here in law enforcement is saying a lot of the same people that doing the the the violations, the criminal behavior against the public are doing against police, family members and  [00:51:19][58.1]

Speaker 3: [00:51:19] maybe even  [00:51:20][0.3]

Speaker 1: [00:51:20] doing it about their brother and sister officers, you know. And so you you know that we need to be thinking this more holistic way. So that's one of my thoughts. The other side is, is, is Marc. You were talking about the internet, both of you by the international nature of this, and there's no question about it. Right? You know, there was a super complaint that was just filed, approved in the UK for investigation, you know, alleging or kind of pointing to issues with Oadby issues and lack of enforcement by departments across England as well. So we know that's an issue. You know, you have reports out of Australia police officers helping their mates, you know, track down an ex-partner, you know? So this is international and a problem. One of the things that's somewhat unique in the US is is police officers and weapons. You know, guns as a regular matter for all officers, pretty much, you know, who are who are sworn officers. And I'm just wondering if both of you could talk about some of those challenges because you mentioned before about, you know, laws that police officers when if they lose, they can't carry a weapon, if they've been convicted of domestic violence. And my experience with those kind of laws is that can cut both ways is then it gives incentive to plea bargain things down, to push things into the shadows because it would have in that career destroying impact. And I know that, Tom, you said earlier, you know, these pillars of protect victims, preserve careers. You know, there's a there's an there's a natural desire that we want serving officers. To keep serving there, there are colleagues, we've invested in them. Can you talk a little bit about guns and and police officers? No, I'd be a little bit. Well, let me be clear. Preserve careers means preventing this from happening right and making sure that our officers have support and have a know and understand the channels that they can seek to get support to prevent domestic violence from happening once domestic violence happens. And I don't care what the court does as a police leader. I'm not going to employ someone who's been convicted of domestic violence. I am. I'm going to, in fact, work to decertify that officer so that they can never be a police officer again. And that is the stance that the model policy that we've that we've worked on through the years is really clear about. We can't have a full reliance on the criminal justice system, criminal justice system is one place that we can hold people accountable. But if the officers violated my policy on domestic violence, then I can hold them accountable to that policy. And I don't care what the court does. We're going to do a criminal investigation. We're going to do a separate administrative investigation. Whatever the courts find, I'm going to look at the fact pattern, the evidence and make a decision based on whether or not you violated my policy. And that is going to get you terminated, decertified if you if the evidence and information supports that. So it's a it's a two pronged piece criminal justice system reform and policing reform. And we can hold people accountable to that policy as opposed to a general code of conduct violation that's buried in someone's personnel file. I want to know if they are someone who is abusive to their partner because David, as you said, it's directly connected to a whole bunch of other stuff that creates problems for policing and the profession.  [00:55:01][220.7]

Speaker 3: [00:55:02] And they let me let me add that from a practical point of view, when I was a homicide detective here in Nashville, you know, I investigated arrested officers from, you know, from attempted murder to sex assault at child abuse. So we've always, you know, had a pretty hot stove opinion. You know, there's an old saying down south, you know, people steal hot stove and you make it hot enough. They won't touch it. So we got a pretty good. We got a pretty good record of arresting officers who committed the crimes. But it hasn't been true with the mystic bones. So when I went over in '94, we create the largest domestic violence police unit in the United States history, with 39 total personnel working nothing but domestic sexual violence, about 23000 cases a year. And when we sold the idea to the chief, he said, How are you going to deal with possible domestic violence? I said, we're going to lock them up because he asked me, he said, if I hit my wife, what are you going to do? And I said, You better bring a toothbrush because you're going to jail. And after I said it, I took a big, deep breath and I thought I just bought a cheap, I locked him up. But he said, That's exactly what I want to hear from you because, you know, you know, nobody gets a pass on this. Like Tom said, we don't want to have these people in ranks. But there's something else, too, that we need to understand. And I saw this managing police cases. And not only that, I'm impressed against al-Shabab cases. I mean, is that two decades of work for me in every one of them was trained on how to deal with an option of all case. And what we saw was there was some of those officers who were model cops. They were the best one officer. They were the best detective. You know, they never had citizen complaints. And then we discovered they were abusing their family members. So the notion that if you see an officer who is abusive to the public, they're going to be abusive to the to their family, then always fit. And I know I've read Lenore Johnson's work on 73 percent. What she saw was, you know, she saw those numbers and they're there. There's no doubt about it. But this is a wily offender, right? You'll never find a more manipulative offender than a domestic violence offender because they'll talk an option to lock up their own person. I've never met a bank robber that convinced me to lock up the bank clerk.  [00:57:02][119.2]

Speaker 2: [00:57:03] And it leads into another issue, too, because one of the things that I've stumbled across and in in, you know, researching and engaging this issue is that because of poor understandings about perpetration and perpetrators, patterns of behaviors, the command and control manipulation that superiors get pulled into colluding with those perpetrators by calling them if that person says, my wife is crazy, don't answer a call if she says that I'm abusing her and then that happens. Well, now that that superiors implicated. And so now that perpetrator has a skeleton in their closet and they can continue to push and manipulate that relationship because now that person, whether or not they're a chief of police or, you know, their their immediate supervisor knows that they probably failed really colossally and that their butt is on the line. And that's also a problem. And so I don't know if you want to talk about that.  [00:58:03][60.0]

Speaker 3: [00:58:03] Well, Ruben and look, look, you got to understand the relationship between women and men in policing and firefighting as well. I've put in the same category. This is a different relationship. You build bonds together, saving each other's lives like the military. That's stronger than family. I mean, I mean, I love my family but not have never saved my life, but a lot of cops saved my life and I owe them. So what'll happen with this kind of offender? They'll call the marker in when they're on the carpet. They'll call you and say, I need your help. I beat my wife up last night. Remember that time when I saved you on this? What call can you help me? And you go, and that's the test. You know, that's the moment where you reach a crossroad. You say, Do I want to be a cop or do I want to be a club member? Right? You have to make a decision and some people take one wrote. Some people take the other. And all of a sudden you find yourself compromised and then guess what happens next? Somebody you work with in patrol was called, you know, somebody, some somebody stalking somebody or they are considering calls. And they said, you know, he slapped his date at a nightclub. And all of a sudden you water down your standards and you find yourself and you look in the mirror. You think, you know what? I lost sight of who I am as a as a law enforcement officer because I compromised. And it's a it's an interesting relationship. You know, I've said in post commission meetings here in Tennessee, where the Post Commission decides whether decertify officers and I have this memory of what this country share with one of his deputies standing before this commission, who was about to take away this type of certification because he was convicted of domestic violence. And this sheriff said, I wish you wouldn't take his commission because he's a good boy and I've known for years and he just made a mistake and he won't do it again. I thought, what in the world is wrong with this man? Who is he? Is he a sheriff? Or, you know, is he, you know, some social club president, right?  [00:59:51][108.3]

Speaker 2: [00:59:52] Well, LAPD Villanova has somebody that has domestic violence arrest on his record, and he's kept him as a personal assistant and then brought him back on the force and a judge just disallowed that because of his domestic violence record. And LAPD has a pretty like they've said that they have a commitment to transparency into this issue. So if it's still happening in precincts like that, then we have to assume that that pressure is really great and that we have to address it directly. How to keep supervisors and managers from colluding with perpetrators and being manipulated by them and being triangulated and then them being implicated in crimes?  [01:00:32][40.6]

Speaker 1: [01:00:35] Well, you you're LAPD. You know, I've been part of an answer for that, if I may. You know, it goes back to this point. I think that you brought up that, you know, oftentimes the perpetrator will, you know, try to discredit their partner, to the department, to their command staff. And to me, this is an example of an early warning sign. We've seen this in many cases, including the David Brame case. He in Tacoma that we talked about the chief. You know, he discredited his, his wife. And in many cases I've reviewed around the country, we see this component where the offender is trying to discredit the spouse with the command staff or with other officers across the department. To me, I've seen it enough where now it's becoming an early warning sign. And so we have to educate our our officers, certainly our supervisors and our command staff around that piece. And and and just take that into consideration as opposed to just assuming that the officer is always right. As a leader, a police leader, I used to say this. I trust my officers. I trust all my officers, but I trust and verify. I verify that that trust is well-founded. And that's just a part of leadership that I think is critical, especially when you apply it to often involve domestic violence. You know,  [01:01:57][82.0]

Speaker 3: [01:01:57] David the brain page, by the way, it came out in the state police investigation after the murder suicide. And I've got friends and they're retired now from Tacoma. But Brian carried a suitcase, a briefcase with him everywhere he went, and he had this binary files of every officer in Tacoma, and he wanted them to know that he knew them, and he was not only abusive to his family. He was abusive to his entire agency. Wow. He was compromised with the city manager a day before he killed his wife and committed suicide. I think it was a Seattle paper ask about the divorce filing. His wife accused him of being abusive, and he said, He's a good man. It's a private matter. We supported the next day. He killed his wife and killed himself. And so there was all kinds of problems at the top echelon of that agency, but they weren't the only ones. I'm not singling out Tacoma now. That's not that's unfair to them. They're great agency. But Brain was an incredible abuser not only of his family, but of his entire agency. There was an allegation of sex assault when he was a captain on the department. In the end, the case made his way up, but it never made it to the DA's office. So there was a lot of weird stuff going on with Brame and his friends who were in control that agency who were no longer there anymore.  [01:03:10][73.3]

Speaker 1: [01:03:11] Yeah, I just, you know, go back to Tom's point and we're going to move towards wrapping up and we could talk to you guys for hours and we may have you back, but I'm back to that sort of that red flag about saying she's crazy. And that kind of thing is, you know, we see that with, you know, the the general civilian domestic violence perpetrators as well. And unfortunately, it falls on a cultural kind of construct. You know, women are crazy, they're too emotional. You know, there's these sort of stereotypes. And so that they're both police perpetrators and general public perpetrators play on that with their family and friends. And it's part of the isolation and the triangulation tactics. And, you know, unfortunately, those those stereotypes and those biases still have a hold enough in a culture that individual people can use them, and they aren't the red flag that they should be for so many people. You know, if your officer is complaining to you about his wife and how she's crazy and I get men in my groups, you know, who would say, Well, she's craziness, and I say, Well, why are you with her? Then they go, Well, you know, you know? And they start backpedaling. But that presentation like that is is should be a red flag for chiefs and for, you know, captains, lieutenants when men and friends, you know your brother officers saying that it should be a warning to you that maybe something else is going on here, right? Well, here's a here's the connection. Again, when you when you look at domestic violence generally and police officers involved domestic violence as a police officer responded to hundreds, maybe thousands of domestic violence calls and almost every call I went to right, the perpetrator or the offender would pull me aside and tell me, Well, she's crazy. You know, you're a guy. You know how women can be right? And so I, you know, I heard this mark, right? Almost every call. And so when we hear from someone in policing, you know, why don't we connect those same dots? Right? That's right. And I just think there's so much to to work to be done here that I'm so grateful. I know Ruth, this is too, you know, for the work you're doing. And I'm just wondering, as we move to wrapping up, when you think about solutions, what's one thing you think about? I know we've talked about transparency and implementing model policy. You know what? What's the one thing that you haven't said yet on this podcast that you think is so important to moving this issue forward?  [01:05:39][148.1]

Speaker 3: [01:05:42] Why is hard to do this, David, because it's got so many different pieces to it. You know, I just I think when you look at the mission of policing is to make the law keep its promise pure, pure and simple. Does it keep its promise when you lie about your own officers who commit crimes? And the answer is no. So we have to not just look at the public and say there's something wrong with them or this, you know, this crime is difficult. You have to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, Who am I? What am I here for? Am do I truly want to be a public servant or do I want to be, you know, just another person in another club that ignores reality because this this is not going away. We just got started. You know, I've done this work so long now that I can tell you, we're just getting warmed up. I'm not the last generation. There's going to be generations of of of Marx and Toms that's going to fight this because men have been killing women since there have been humans on this planet. And it's our job in policing to stop that abuse and killing, so and that's not going to happen overnight and we're not going to do about risking everybody. So it's going to take a lot of smart people to fix this problem and we're just the beginning of it. So to ignore it is it's insanity. And it's and it's and it's malfeasance. If you if you raise your hand, you swear an oath of office to be a police officer in any country in this world, I think.  [01:07:22][100.1]

Speaker 1: [01:07:23] OK. Tom, over to you for the last word about. What's the one thing that would make this better that we haven't talked about yet? I have hope, I have hope in the leadership I've seen in my 30 year career now 40 years, including my consulting work all over the all over the world, that there are leaders that recognize that what makes this profession noble is our willingness to reform, our willingness to raise the bar and make it better for our communities. And so I hope that leaders recognize this, and I know leaders are pulled in a lot of different directions today. But when you look at the problem of domestic violence in our country and in countries all over the world, you see these offshoots of other problems, other social problems that again, could be another whole podcast, right? Right. So I guess it's leadership. It's the policy that I mentioned and it's partnerships in your community, community coordinated response to domestic violence and advocates the critical role that advocates play because typically a survivor of police perpetrated domestic violence isn't calling 9-1-1 or the chief's office. They do. Occasionally, they're reaching out to community based advocacy shelters, assistance based advocates, and they want to know what they can do. They want to know how to stay safe. And so police leaders have to partner with advocacy groups, create memorandums of understanding around a police involved domestic violence policy that there's going to be accountability to the criminal justice system and to the law enforcement policy within the organization. OK, so like I said, we could talk to you for hours, but at this point we're coming up. We're trying to keep this podcast to an hour have gone up over occasionally. Do you do either of you want to mention either email or website? You know, you both do consulting at this point. Your international trainers, your consultants, you know, how do people reach you?  [01:09:23][119.6]

Speaker 3: [01:09:25] Well, for me, your mark, when mrk w.y in incom, you can email me through my website or just, you know, my business email mrk w-why in in at Edge IDG dot net correspond with law enforcement all over the world. You know, this morning I spent, you know, three hours with police in Lagos, Nigeria. Last week I was working with officers in Ghana and the week before in Zambia. So I'm doing a lot of work in Africa now as I'm corresponding with police worldwide. And you know, what I found is they're hungry. They're hungry for the truth. They're hungry for promising practices. And I'm encouraged. Like Thom, I'm hopeful that, you know, we're going to turn the corner on this thing, but it's just going to take a while to do it. But we have to talk to one another and share not only our successes, but our failures. So it's not repeated again in some other far off country.  [01:10:26][60.5]

Speaker 1: [01:10:27] And Tom, how do people reach you? Do it a lot of work around domestic violence and sexual assault and specifically around police perpetrated domestic violence and police perpetrated sexual misconduct. You go to my website. Tom Tremblay Consulting dot com. OK. All right. So we want to thank you both. You know, and we're going to speak for a minute here. You know about the podcast and then we'll wrap up. But so, you know,  [01:10:56][28.8]

Speaker 2: [01:10:56] really quickly, I wanted to just say as a survivor that I am incredibly grateful for your work. It is incredibly meaningful to know that you are both there doing everything you can to change this issue because it feels like a fundamental system failure, an impediment to justice for survivors in particular. So I just I'm very, very grateful for both of you. So this has been partnered with the survivor.  [01:11:27][31.0]

Speaker 1: [01:11:28] That's right. And if you want to read through tonight, you can reach us through the safe and together into the website. Or if you want to extend your learning, you can go to our virtual academy, which the Academy Dot Soup and the other in second.  [01:11:38][9.7]

Speaker 2: [01:11:39] And I made a coupon code if anybody would like to engage themselves in any of the training. It gives you 15 percent off and the coupon code is partnered all lowercase. And you can choose whatever training you would like.  [01:11:52][13.0]

Speaker 1: [01:11:53] And please, if you like this podcast, follow it. Subscribe to it. Share it with a friend! You know this series on Officer Domestic Violence, we wanted to go far and wide and want amplifying the voices of advocates like Mark and Tom around this issue in the net and Leonardo Johnson and Alex Ross, now part of the main part of the series. And so follow us on Facebook or on Twitter. There's a new Twitter feed just for partnered with Survivor, along with the safe and together into one. And I think we're out.  [01:11:53][0.0]